BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 05:00 AM

The one you quote is far less inflammatory and more truthful than the one I posted. Which is the point I am making. It is the language of the headlines that do the damage. I also note that the "secret" seems to have been revealed on the 11th by the Guardian yet the Mail is still reporting it as a "secret plot" 2 days later.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 04:12 AM

Come on Dave. Which bias do you prefer?

The Guardian 11.2.23


Revealed: secret cross-party summit held to confront failings of Brexit

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 03:54 AM

Well Nigel the infamous Scum headline has already been mentioned but rather than rely on one that old I skimmed today and the Daily Heil has come up trumps with "secret plot to unravel brexit". The story behind it does not matter one bit because as that line shouts from this morning's newsstands there will be some foaming at the mouth about remoaners and traitors ruining "are cuntry". Why use the term "secret plot" other than to suggest some sort of shady cabal wanting to bring down the government. How can they "unravel" brexit when we have already left? It's all about causing passions to rise and it works with some.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 06:57 PM

Dave:
True but the principle remains. The headlines in particular set off the dog whistle reactions of many people and the papers mentioned are expert in setting off racist and other hate reactions

Which headlines? Or can you not quote them?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 02:46 PM

After 34 years, most newsagents in Liverpool still won't sell the Sun.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 02:43 PM

Cheers, Pete. And everything you put in your list is principled. We can ditch all that for expediency in order to win an election (though there will be the delusion when we do win that we won it, whereas the truth will be that the Tories lost it by implosion). But the effect won't last, quite likely not even for one full term. And the Tories know that. We need something better than four years of blaming the Tories for the mess they left us with. With Starmer, we haven't got that, nothing like. In 2028-ish, the Tories will be back. They always come back, and the electorate in this country find it far easier to side with the Tory brand of populism. Whatever we think of Blair, we desperately need to examine what it was that (a) made him win, (b) made him keep winning. Whatever it was, it's blatantly obvious that Starmer hasn't got it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 02:27 PM

Stanron - since their disgusting one-word headline following the Hillsborough tragedy, The Sun {{spit}} has been known by many decent people, not only in Liverpool but all over the UK, as ‘The Scum’.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 02:22 PM

”I took "Daily Heil/Scum/Torygraph/Ex-press readers" to mean readers of all the misnamed rags but I could be wrong. I'm sure BWM will put us right sooner or later :-)”

Sorry Dave, been out all day with my wife’s parents, treating her mum to lunch for her 81st birthday. But you’re correct anyway! (FWIW, the aforementioned parents are avid readers of the printed Daily Mail, and they believe every word in it, so I have almost thirty years’ experience of what that rag’s hateful, shameful propaganda can do to the beliefs and opinions of otherwise good and decent people).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 02:20 PM

though i guess the most important thing is to have an effective and enthusiastic leader who can persuade the electorate - i don't think it's starmer and it wasn't corbyn. Rayner? Burnham?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 02:17 PM

left wing policies that are popular with everyone'
Pay the NHS workers and protect it from privatisation
support all public services - stress thriving communities and respect the hero workers who work within it
renationalise energy, transport, care sector and all privatised stuff
tax the rich, transaction tax for shares, capital
quick and efficient assessment of asylum seekers
constructive dialogue with our european partners - work to fill vacancies in all sectors with locals or migrants from wherever
ban foreign ownership of football clubs
prosecute tax avoiders not benefit claimants
etc - there's loads to do . maybe education x3 is the best insurance against having to go through all that shite again for a while anyway

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 12:18 PM

More so with the websites rather than the actual paper itself. Nearly all, if not all, newspaper websites chase readers via their click bait snippets. Those that invite reader comments on articles, tend to attract comments from a very small number of viewers/readers. A lot of those people who comment are regulars, repeating the same views over and over.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 11:56 AM

True but the principle remains. The headlines in particular set off the dog whistle reactions of many people and the papers mentioned are expert in setting off racist and other hate reactions

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 09:43 AM

Well not that many people read newspapers these days. Of those who do read a paper, I doubt that many of them would agree with everything in the paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 09:15 AM

I took "Daily Heil/Scum/Torygraph/Ex-press readers" to mean readers of all the misnamed rags but I could be wrong. I'm sure BWM will put us right sooner or later :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stanron
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 07:03 AM

I think the word 'readers' suggests that you may be wrong in this case Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 06:27 AM

I think 'scum' in this case refers to the Sun newspaper, Stanron.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stanron
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 06:17 AM

re 12 Feb 23 - 05:02 AM

"but how are the Daily Heil/Scum/Torygraph/Ex-press readers to be persuaded?

To paraphrase this you seem to be asking something like

"How can I get these scum to like me?"

Perhaps the first move would be to stop calling and thinking of them as scum.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 06:10 AM

(Ignoring the expected insult: go back to bed, John, and try getting out the other side!)

To my mind, Dick, you are right wing or left wing (or neither...?) according to your overall ideology. A single act (e.g. the invasion of Iraq) might have people suspecting that you're on the right wing spectrum, but, in itself, it doesn't necessarily condemn you. Attlee was a confounded misogynist (right) but he founded the NHS (left). Blair invaded Iraq (right) and he widened the gap between rich and poor (right), but he left both education and the NHS in a much better state than he found them (left and left). Mick Lynch fights tooth and nail for his members (left) but is an ardent brexiteer (right). Most politicians support the monarchy (right), but many of those will also fight for equality and social justice (left). Your stance on brexit might be that you want to leave because you see the EU as undemocratic (left), or that you want to leave because you hate foreigners (right). Personally, I disliked Blair, but he kept the Tories at bay (arguably by being Tory-lite...), and I'd hardly call him hard-right...It's complicated...

And again, I wasn't arguing for a left-leaning party but I am arguing for tolerance and the return of the broad church. Removing the left from Labour is a nakedly expedient move, peppered with unwarranted demonisation, and it's thoroughly unprincipled. If you want an unprincipled party to run the country, great. You've already got one. One more time: if you want to lose an election, create a schism in the party. History teaches us that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 05:40 AM

Well it might be a start if some of you actually spoke to people who did not vote labour last time. Then you might get a better idea of what those people want.

Asking labour supporters and/or workers what they think is needed, is a bit pointless if they don't have some idea of why people did not vote for them in the first place.

The vast majority of people in this country share similar views. You just have to explain that to them. They might vote for you then.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 05:30 AM

I should have said that Corbyn failed because of his lack etc. rather than his policies. It was those policies that had the right running scared enough to bring out the big guns and he was just not strong enough to withstand the attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 05:18 AM

I thought I had already done that John. The electorate were once convinced that a functional NHS, nationalised utilities and transport, and care for the elderly and vulnerable, all left wing policies, were a good thing so they voted for them. If the Labour Party want to retain their core values and win elections, they should be concentrating on the issues I have just mentioned. Corbyn failed because of his lack of leadership and inability to stand up to the right inside and outside his own party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 05:02 AM

Excellent post from Dave, the expected spittle-flecked, ranty ‘lecture’ from Steve, and I’m buggered if I can work out what The Sandman’s rattling on about.

But nobody seems to have made any attempt to give answers to the question that was the main point of my earlier post - how 'the left, the heart and soul of the party' plan to persuade voters that a Leftward-leaning Labour Party would be best for the United Kingdom. (Personally, I believe it would, but how are the Daily Heil/Scum/Torygraph/Ex-press readers to be persuaded?).

So come on, it’s a simple question - what are the policies and tactics you would personally recommend to the LP which you believe would convince a good majority of voters, especially those with a tendency to follow the aforementioned publications, to elect a Labour government of the Left? How ya gunna do it? Corbyn failed spectacularly in 2019, what would you do to make it happen in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 02:02 AM

ok. good points however the bombing of iraq, was a Right wing foreign policy
Chilcot said: “We have concluded that the UK chose to join the invasion of Iraq before the peaceful options for disarmament had been exhausted.
    An extension of Atlees agreement to join Nato and to be closely allied with USA foreign Policy?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 23 - 06:06 PM

Winning a trade deal with Europe will win precisely a very few votes. Some real imagination is needed there, and Starmer has already burned his bridges.

Well we can argue about where Blair stood, and I'm definitely no fan, for all sorts of reasons. But he left our education system and the NHS in good condition. That isn't what the right do in this country. By their fruits, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 23 - 05:41 PM

Was It Atlees vision or Bevans? Atlee was the adminstrator?
Blair was a right winger,his Governments only achievement was down to mowlam and corbyn and was the good friday agreement, in domestic policy he was a Conservative
Atlees domestic progress was praiseworthy, his foreign policies were more questionable, he became an American puppet.
His majority was voted in by Returning servicemen who had fought together regardless of class, and who had risked their lives and were determined that in risking their lives their should be more equality. The only reason I see to vote for Starmer is that he might manage to negotiate a trade deal with Europe, IN MY OPINION PRETTY IMPORTANT

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 23 - 04:59 PM

Well done, Dave. Great post there. But you'd think that expedient centrists such as Backwoodsman (sorry, John, but you've called me much worse...) have the right to ditch all of Labour's traditional values... just to win a bloody election? Well let me tell you something, John. Starmer will "win" only because the Tories have immolated. As I've said, that's a joy to me. But it won't, and can't, endure. What we don't want is one Labour term, with all the struggles that will ensue thanks to the Tory mismanagement of just about everything, followed by the absolutely inevitable Tory resurgence (quite likely led by the populist Johnson). That is the nature of this country, the nature of this electorate. Starmer is a control freak who is doing his damnedest to sideline the principled left, for nothing more than expediency. Dammit, we're even hearing the resurrection of that lying bullshit about antisemitism! Another cliche: Labour is, or is supposed to be, a broad church. I never said, to quote you, that Labour should become a leftward-leaning party, and, as for running scared of right-wing tabloids, I'd like to remind you that Blair (who, for all his faults, was no right-winger: by his record should we judge him...) got Murdoch solidly on his side. The gutter press will always back winners, whatever their political colour. But you don't become a winner by creating schisms in your own party. That's a solid bit of history that any party leader should learn from. Unfortunately, Starmer has been skipping school.

And I'm still a Labour Party member.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 11 Feb 23 - 02:17 PM

All that can be said is that leavers voted to leave. None of us knew what the terms of leaving were going to be. Some of us knew that there would be extra costs involved due to us leaving. I originally thought it would take 5 years to see how well or not it turns out. Now, due to covid and the situation in Ukraine, I think it might be up to 10 years before we get a true picture. We are only 2 years in so far.

I voted to remain. So far I have seen no reason to sugest I was wrong to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Feb 23 - 02:14 PM

75 years ago the Labour Party did something far more radical and left wing than ever before or since. They formed the NHS. Don't forget that they were up against the nations darling war hero, Churchill, in the 1945 election. The right has never forgiven them and has been trying to demolish that good work ever since. The left wing, which is, or should be, the heart of the Labour Party became too complacent and thought that people would remember it was them who gave the nation free health care, a proper nationalised energy and transport policy and a secure old age. The right knew that people were fickle so the tempted them with Thatcher's cheap housing (I have an otherwise sane friend who still reveres the blessed Maggie because she got him on the housing ladder) and, more recently, they have even tried to reincarnate the Churchillian spirit with the blonde buffoon and Brexit.

Labour do need the left wing but it needs the vision and leadership of a new Atlee. Corbyn had the vision but was severely lacking in leadership. Starmer is a centrist puppet for the media. The party needs someone like Mick Lynch to provide focus and drive. Joe and Jane need to see the face that Labour presented 8n 1945.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Feb 23 - 12:03 PM

I wonder if this is what the Leavers voted for? Brexit - the gift that keeps on giving…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Feb 23 - 06:24 AM

Ordinary Joes and Janes - apologies for the unintended misogynistic omission!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Feb 23 - 06:23 AM

The problem you've got is that the general voting population, brainwashed as they are by the Tory Propaganda Machine, find 'the left, the heart and soul of the (Labour) party' very unappealing indeed in terms of attracting their votes.

'The left, the heart and soul of the party' can't win GEs on their own, neither can the entire membership of the Labour Party - they need to get ordinary Joes voting Labour. I'm still seeing and hearing a lot of people who might otherwise vote Labour making excuses for the Tories' abysmal failures over the past thirteen years - "Pandemic, Ukraine, Labour spent all the money and somebody had to pay for it, Rishi's doing his best, yadda feckin' yadda" - so I'm not convinced that, even as the Tories publicly commit Hara-Kiri, Labour are guaranteed to win in 2024.

Id be very interested to hear how 'the left, the heart and soul of the party' plan to persuade voters that a Leftward-leaning Labour Party would be best for the United Kingdom. (Personally, I believe it would, but how are the Daily Heil/Scum/Torygraph/Ex-press readers to be persuaded?).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 23 - 04:15 AM

Well I've been saying ever since Starmer took over that he's sure to lose the next election. I'm 99.9% certain that I'll eating my words (which will make me very happy), but that's because, as the old cliche goes, elections are lost by the incumbents, not won by the opposition. The Tories almost look as if they're imploding on purpose. The spectre of a weak Labour leader who favours centralising control freakery (and worse, who is determined to sideline the left, the true heart and soul of the party) is unedifying in the extreme and is not the mark of a man who is capable of sidelining the Tories for a generation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 11 Feb 23 - 03:36 AM

Bit of a strange article in todays Guardian. A mixture of reporting on the Jared O'Mara case and tbe increasing unhappiness of local party members with ths NEC involvement in selecting candidates for the next election.

Comments about ex-Sheffield Hallam MP come as key figures in Bolton N.E.quit

"The entire selection committee in Bolton North East resigned after they were not allowed to choose the shortlist, an increasingly common practice in Keir Starmer’s Labour party, saying: “Yet again, it appears that the Labour party is seeking to promote the views and attitudes of a clique in London, rather than local members in the north.”

They added: “This goes against the attitude necessary to win back the red wall, which is so desperately needed to deliver a Labour government.”"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Feb 23 - 02:06 PM

From the pen of Mrs 'ardin's kid

Found in one of Cecil Sharpe's old notebooks

Folk Song

A boy on a bicycle
Once ask-ed of me
“How many strawberries
Grow in the salt sea?”

And I answered him back
With a tear in my eye
“As many Tory ministers
As have never told a lie.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Feb 23 - 10:09 AM

My mistake, it is available in English under the title "My Secret Brexit Diary: A Glorious Illusion". The hardback ISBN is 1509550860, but it also available in paperback and on the Kindle.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Feb 23 - 10:04 AM

I generally listen to the podcast "The Rest is Politics" with Alistair Campbell and Rory Stewart. I have just been listening to a long interview by them with Michel Barnier largely, but not entirely, about his experiences during the Brexit negotiations. If you can get a chance to hear it, it is worth your time.

There is a book "La grande illusion: Journal secret du Brexit (2016-2020)" which is, I think, only available in French at the moment, but no doubt an English translation will be produced in time.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 08:40 AM

Troll clearly = not agreeing with lefty views!!!

---

No, trolling because you continually smear people with racist descriptions. Attacking people by denigrating their race, gender, orientation, or features is not a response to liberal politics, it is an ugly personal habit you've never managed to reform. Say "goodbye" to all of the nice people, Bonzo. ---mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 05:29 AM

It’s trolling/flaming, pure and simple. Nothing more, nothing less.

From Mudcat FAQs, ‘Dealing with Flamers and Trolls’ section…

”I've said it before, and I'm sure I'll say it many times more: the best way to deal with both flamers and trolls is to ignore them. Give them silence, and they'll go away. They feed on attention - don't give it to them.
There is another problem that occasionally arises here - people who are threatening in their behavior. It is of utmost importance that you do not try to deal with these people. If you ignore them totally and inform Joe Offer or Big Mick about them quietly with a personal message or e-mail, we can quietly make them disappear (to an extent).
PLEASE DO NOT TRY TO DEAL WITH THESE PEOPLE YOURSELVES.
If people seem dangerous, LEAVE THEM ALONE.”

I recommend all of us normal, rational people to ignore Bonzo.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 04:00 AM

Well, Liz Truss has written a long article in the Sunday Telegraph saying whoever it was, it certainly wasn't her.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Feb 23 - 10:12 AM

Worth asking again. Just who was it that managed to wipe billions off the economy by getting her sums wrong?

And just how stupid would anyone be to think that they can liken a large lady of African heritage to a hippopotamus and think they can get away with it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Feb 23 - 06:47 AM

"HMRC will not allow overpayment of tax, they will refund any excess paid automatically."

Not strictly true.

Voluntary payments / donations to government

"Donations in general towards public expenditure

If you wish to make a voluntary payment to HM Government you may arrange a direct bank transfer to HM Treasury. Please be advised that gifts cannot be ring-fenced for a specific purpose or assigned to a specific area of public spending."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Feb 23 - 06:41 AM

HMRC will not allow overpayment of tax, they will refund any excess paid automatically

Great! So your advice to the Zahawi's and others is, in the event of the slightest doubt, to overpay any tax they might be due, safe in the knowledge any excess will be refunded.

Hardly worth employing an accountant, then Just pay lots and let HMRC sort it out!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Feb 23 - 06:28 AM

Nobody mentioned ‘overpayment of tax’. Where did you dig that red herring up from? For your clients’ sakes, I hope your maths is better than your English comprehension.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Feb 23 - 06:15 AM

What absolute bollocks. HMRC will not allow overpayment of tax, they will refund any excess paid automatically.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Feb 23 - 04:38 AM

Saw this on FarceBook this morning (button it, Steve) - thought I’d post it here for our resident Zahawi-apologist to peruse…

”Dear Nadhim Zahawi, today I had two rather marvellous and deeply British experiences, and I thought you might like to know about them. I have been ill for the past four weeks with a particularly unpleasant flu virus, and since I am both self-employed and immunocompromised I thought I'd better check in with my GP today before things started to turn nasty. I called the surgery at 10.15 am, expecting there to be long delays at all points in the system; but by 12.15 I had been dealt with by a very skilled receptionist, triaged, been given an oppointment, been seen by a doctor, been diagnosed and given a prescription, been to the pharmacy and taken my first drugs. God Bless the NHS - what an amazing invention. Then ( after I had a little lie down) I finished and filed my online tax return, without, I am happy to say, my accountant finding any errors, careless or no; I then hit the button and proudly paid my taxes, in full, out of the money which I have managed to save in the course of the past year of not very highly paid work as a writer, teacher and freelancer. It seems to me that the two things are not unconnected; we pay our taxes, and in return we get this extraordinary public service. Now I know that some people are saying that the NHS is a mess, that it needs more money, but that sadly we just can't afford it from current tax revenues. Well, here's an idea; what if very single one of the top earners in this country - oh, I don't know - let's say just the top 1% of them- what if just that top 1% paid their full whack of taxes fairly and promptly, instead of exploiting all and every available legal loophole and/or occasionally resorting to a spot of "carelessness" via their accountants. Imagine. For instance, imagine if only another 500 or 1000 people had each paid - oh, I don't know - plucking a figure out of the air - if they each paid another £3.8 million in taxes this year - without being asked, or forced, but simply because they are proud of this country and its NHS and all the extraordinary work it does.....or even simply because they are decent human beings. Just saying. Just imagine, eh?”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Feb 23 - 03:16 AM

Yea, but she is white and wimpy. Bonzo will like that. Makes him feel manly

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 03 Feb 23 - 08:24 PM

Pray tell me, who f***ed up the economy last year. Her name wasn't Truss, was it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Feb 23 - 04:19 PM

Why doesn’t the HMR&C break into Zahawi’s house and install a prepayment tax meter?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 23 - 07:31 PM

Diane Abbott (do note the correct spelling, Bonzzoo...) has an educational background that would put most of us here to shame, me included. Go on, look it up. Jeremy Corbyn, though perhaps not a born leader, has more principle in his little finger than all those Tories Pete mentioned put together, and a damn sight more than Starmer.

Anyway, Raab is doomed. Next to go. I wouldn't like to bet on who will be next after him. There will be Braverman scandals to come I should think, though Shapps already has form. Fishi's dad-in-law is embroiled in tax issues with HMRC, nothing to see here, just another few million...

My missus brought me up a cup of tea a couple of mornings ago. That early, I didn't have my hearing aids in. She'd been listening to Today and was saying to me, they've decided not to ban neonicotinoid insecticides...Thérèse Coffey...

I said, what use would that be? We don't raise coffee in this country, the climate's too cold! I was lucky to receive that tea still in its cup... (and that's a completely true story!)

As of this year it's 50 years since I joined the NUT, now the NEU. I'll never not be in a trade union until they finally carry me out in a box, and I never worked a single day as a teacher not in the Union. I fought the good fight along with many another to get the Union to be militant, which in my opinion it never has been (which in large part is why teaching has been shat on for decades), and got in trouble several times with the Union establishment. My union mentor and numero uno brother-in-arms was Blair Peach, one of the finest men it's been my privilege to know. In spite of this shoddy government's rules about who can strike (they got into power on a far weaker mandate than we have to achieve to go on strike, lest we forget), we comfortably won the strike ballot, which echoed the strength of feeling I've seen in the people I know who are still in teaching, generally a very mild-mannered bunch. It could be that this bloody shower will eventually starve the public sector workers back to work, but that will be nothing like a solution. I want to see Labour giving us a real alternative for repairing the public sector, even if it's never going to be a quick fix. I'm hearing nothing of vision so far...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 01 Feb 23 - 06:46 PM

i always think about john mcdonnell with jeremy
thatcher and keith joseph
brown and blair
john major and currie
cameron and osborne
johnson and trump

all with their varied skills, vices and peculiarities

then there was truss and coffey. jeez, how did it ever come to that?