BS: KISS keep it simple

Subject: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 04:28 PM

Dave the Gnome asked me to dumb down my alternative explanations (hypothesis). On second thought It is a good idea. Richard Feynman was the most personable genius and said you should be able to tell a stranger on a bar stool what you are on about.
You also can simplify stuff but never too much. So I will let you know some things you have to know first. I am on the outside looking inside at new discoveries And learning what I need to know to understand what I am seeing then try to make a distillation of common sense. When that common sense does not agree with conventional science I see a clue to look deeper or elsewhere.
You almost have to suspend belief in some things like gravity since there is no observational evidence for the graviton. Waves yes, but no trace of quanta packets of energy. Also, questions like why, can often not be answered. Problems that can't be solved require a new approach.
So here goes...Basically, there are two buckets of stuff, one has matter and the other bucket has force carriers. There are six kinds of electrons and sixteen kinds of quarks. The other buck has particles we call force carriers which are phons of the electrodynamic force. Gravitons are thought to be the force carrier of gravity, The strong nuclear force has carriers called gluons which I think have eight gluons and the weak nuclear force has three carriers. That's four fundamental forces. Yep we are looking for a fifth but it is inconclusive so far.
Issac Newton was stumped when it came to the concept of force carriers since he knew some things acted at a distance and he did not know how they did that. The three giants in Physics were Newton (the first physicist) Maxwell(found force carriers) and Einstein (the pull on space-time by mass).
After that, I have my favs like Dirac, and Shroedinger (for showing the absurdity of quantum mechanics) although the math worked. BTW I do not think in math which is like like a musician who can't read music but I do use mental pictures with my mind's eye which has its problems and advantages.
Photons pass through each other but other boson particle force carriers like fermions do interact and bounce off each other,r which makes bosons and fermions different. Now let's go smaller and look at neutrinos which pass through everything but can on very rare occasions interact with Matter. There are at least 6 kinds or flavors of neutrinos and seem to be able from one kind to another on their own.
We haven't measured all the theorized bosons but some of them have technicolor names

So now you know some names and types of standard particle theory. But what about reality? If everything was symmetrical we would not exist but somewhere the symmetry broke and our universe became possible. You can say symmetry broke and the magic happened.
.
Now let's go smaller into nothing and you are in the quantum realm where fields fluctuate and particles pop into and out of existence. Some physicists don't bother to ask where they come from or where they go but virtual particles seem to go somewhere.
In this land of potential and probabilities, there are uncertainties. You can say on a fundamental level things are uncertain which seems reasonable and strange. Physicists may refer to these bits of nothingness as objects even though there may be nothing there.
Mysteries abound in this realm. For example, there seem to be error-correcting codes at this level. We do not know what this means. Mysteries that fascinate me are dark matter and dark energy. Based on their attributes some things are known but the ideas so far are not helping.

By now you see there is room for more speculations. It can be fun to explore new possibilities. Not by superstition but by things we know but perhaps can not yet measure. Is that lying? I don't think so. I think it is called thinking.
Naturally, black hole questions are popular today. That Dr. Penrose won a Nobel prize for his speculation of black holes but Einstein couldn't win one for General or Special Relativity. That is because of the way the rules for the prize are written.
I was born before Al died but scientists still criticized him regarding his theory into the 50s. It is more time-consuming to think than to be a critic.
As for psychology, it became clear to me the unconscious mind was bigger, stronger and smarter than the conscious mind. 12 years in clinical practice will do that.

I don't know if that clears things up for Dave or not.

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 04:43 PM

buck=bucket and phons=photons
the rest you can intuit

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 05:09 PM

If this is a college lecture, wake me up at the end of the hour, somebody.

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 05:42 PM

I also believe in free will because I have no choice but to believe in it when I question everything.

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 05:58 PM

I thought you wanted to keep it simple.

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 07:28 PM

In short you are adversarial. You have an adversarial government. You probably have adversarial relationships and family.

I get it,

but you are no Christopher Hitchins.
I wish you were because you contradict yourself a great deal
but you work with what you got. We all do.

If we could start the early Earth over a million times, different life would probably evolve each time. Some might have only right-handed proteins.
No way can we ever test this hypothesis but I think about these things.
As is, life evolved entirely differently at least once.

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 07:39 PM

sigh. I knew it was you, Donuel, before I opened the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 07:49 PM

Same here. A dose of the usual, of course...

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 08:17 PM

Subjects that open my mind to new thoughts are a pleasure for me. That's why even the new data about UAPs may not have a conclusion but novel thinking results. If that offends you I think that's weird, so were even. Perhaps you never put yourself in the shoes of an alien and see things from their POV. I have and there are ideas to be gained. Ideas like how we would make false assumptions if we did meet since we are human. We would probably assume human aspects to them that do not exist.

a kiss is just a kiss a sigh is just a sigh
these are fundamentals of our life as time goes by
mysteries are unknown the answer leaves mind's blown
its the fundamental question why as time goes by.

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 08:20 PM

You don't offend us but you do amuse us, and not always in the best way.

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 08:55 PM

I can not be shamed by control freaks for asking unpopular questions.

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 02:43 AM

Thanks Donuel. As yet it does not look simple but I have only skimmed it. I shall look more closely later.

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 06:04 AM

Sorry Donuel. I think it comes down to us communicating on different levels. Your explanation of particle theory is perfectly clear and your line "By now you see there is room for more speculations. It can be fun to explore new possibilities. Not by superstition but by things we know but perhaps can not yet measure." is a good description of how you work but, for me, the whole post is marred by obscure references.

"You almost have to suspend belief in some things like gravity since there is no observational evidence for the graviton." - Sorry but that does not make sense. Gravity exists and whether it exists because of the graviton or the gravy boat does not matter.

"We haven't measured all the theorized bosons but some of them have technicolor names" - WTF are technicolour names?

"If everything was symmetrical we would not exist but somewhere the symmetry broke and our universe became possible." Really? Is that a fact? I am no astrophysacist but I have never heard of that theory.

Those are just three of the things that are arcane.

Let me tell you how I work through similar things. They are either fact or speculation. Speculation can become fact when knowledge is gained. Facts can be superceded by other facts as knowledge improves. I have no issue at all with saying 'I do not understand this' and when I do not understand it, I ask a couple of simple questions.

Do I need to understand it? If the answer is yes, I try to learn about it. If no, I defer to people who do

Do I want to understand it? If yes I will often pose questions like "WTF are technicolour names" (See - I DO want to understand :-) ) If no, I forget it.

I realised some time back that the older I get, the less I seem to know. It makes life interesting enough to know that things that happen every day to surprise or astound me. Some bad, but most of them good and all of them quite amazing.

I think you may have got the wrong idea about keeping things simple for me. I neither want nor need flowery or arcane language. Tell us what you think and why you think it, prefereably without stating opinions or theories as facts. We can make our own minds up. No one will think any the worse of you if you do not have 'special' powers. You are a very special person to many already. No need to try and impress others.

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 06:30 AM

I heartily agree. Call a spade a spade. Donuel revels in NOT keeping things simple, unfortunately, which belies the title of this thread. There's poor English, there are flowery and obscure asides which he ascribes to his poetic predilections (sheesh), there are opinions as facts - and, saddest of all, there's a reputational issue. Too many times in the past we've had half-truths or garbled facts (which aren't always even facts) because of lack of checking. So you never know what to believe unless you start from scratch and research his claims yourself, which can get you very annoyed when you find a lot of errors and misinterpretations. Oh yes, and those claims of special powers... :-(

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 07:31 AM

Where there is shared expertise in cross-domains and disciplines there is more to be learned but when there is no sharing of data we handicap the search for truths. People are organic data streams capable of great things in collaboration. Fear and greed still interfere in research.
If Steve could even once give examples of his complaints you would find he was fooled by humor he can't understand or when I MAKE AN HONEST MISTAKE. Mostly he has another misguided agenda,

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 07:35 AM

Thanks Steve. It may help if you cut him a bit more slack though. I think your observations are correct but I reckon that is just differences in how people communicate and, in this case, does it really matter? Yes, misinformation needs to be put straight but unless it directly affects me or my loved ones, I would be happy just pointing out the fallacies and leaving it to others to make their own minds up. If does affect me as in, for instance, the stance that the Tories are doing a good job, I will move heaven and earth to put it right. But precognition, god, the flying spagetti monster? Unless someone tries to force that belief on me, I just try to mention that it may be bollocks and leave it at that. I often fail but, hey, I am only human. Unlike some ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 07:41 AM

Lo and behold - a post appears, before I hit enter on mine, that I consider to be mainly bollocks. Organic data streams? What are they? Humour he can't understand? If someone does not understand it, it is not humourous! But does it reduce my quality of life? Nah. Do other people see it as bollocks? Well, if a Gnome of limited intelligence can work it out, I'm sure others can :-D

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 07:41 AM

There are several different schools of theoretical physics. One is called super symmetry. It expects many new force carrier particles and names the with an s like selectrons. They reveal themselves in math quite elegantly but present a problem when it comes to actual observation because they may occupy different dimensions. Supersymmetry is closely linked to string theory.

Later more different approaches can be discussed like brane theory and multiverse theories.

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 07:49 AM

Yes, Donuel. I understand that it is theoretical physics yet in your initial post you said

"But what about reality? If everything was symmetrical we would not exist but somewhere the symmetry broke and our universe became possible."

That looks remarkably like you are stating it as a fact to me. I understand it is not but the more gullible may believe it is. I am tryng to help by pointing out it may not be true. When you say you want the truth, please ensure that you tell the truth as well.

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 08:40 AM

I pity the weary traveller who asks Donuel for directions. I imagine that they would never reach their destination.

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Charmion
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 12:56 PM

Oh, geez. This is why I studied history.

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 01:14 PM

Cutting someone slack who is peddling deliberate misinformation and obfuscation simply means that nonsense is allowed to infest the forum, Dave. This place can be better than that.

Nice one, Charmion. Luckily, I studied natural history, so much of the physics goes over my head. But when I do make the effort to delve and find his stuff wanting, I end up thinking that everything he says needs checking. That's annoying.

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 01:22 PM

The Daily Heil peddles deliberate misinformation, Steve, so I just don't read it. Fair enough, we all read posts on here and some are unwelcome but I find my own personal filter is pretty effective at sifting out cobblers :-)

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Charmion
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 01:24 PM

The thing with studying history -- natural or any other kind -- is that inquiry begins with evidence (e.g., a bunch of tattered letters in a long-sealed file box, or a weird new finch), and continues through searching for and examining more evidence. Any speculation that is not briskly confirmed by evidence gets dumped, or the other historians will laugh and point, and stop inviting the speculator to symposia.

And that, gentlemen, is simplicity.

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 01:29 PM

BTW Donuel. I just remembered that the acronym KISS is, or was, keep it short and simple. Maybe applying both would help.

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 03:19 PM

Well said, Charmion (again).

KISS means "keep it simple, stupid." I doubt whether he knew that that's what it means.

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 03:21 PM

Probably didn't have space on the line.

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 03:24 PM

The Daily Mail puts out factual information which is selective and which is subtly mixed with comment. Good journalism attempts to separate news and comment. Donuel peddles misinformation. There's a difference. At least three, if not more, people here besides me have called him out.

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 03:26 PM

Yes he did, Maggie. I've just tried it.

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 03:52 PM

I remember that one too!

Fairy Nuff, Steve. Just thought it may be worth trying a different approach. I shall take my own advice and not press the issue :-)

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 03:57 PM

For completeness: Donuel has this bit right: If everything was symmetrical we would not exist but somewhere the symmetry broke and our universe became possible. Had the Big Bang resulted in equal amounts of matter and antimatter, there'd have been a massive fireworks display, leaving only a cloud of gamma radiation.

Working out what broke symmetry is left as an exercise to the advanced theoretical physicist: your task, if you choose to accept it, is to permit symmetry to be broken without also breaking the astonishingly close agreement between currently-accepted physics and observation; predictions which can't be tested won't count. You are permitted to use both sides of the paper, but not at the same time. Good luck.

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 03:07 AM

Sorry MaJoC but the asymmetry between matter and anti-matter is simply that. As far as I know "every action has an equal and opposite reaction" does not have an equivalent "every thing has an equal and opposite thing". Do we know that something "broke symmetry" or has there never been perfect symmetry in the natural universe? I understand that this is theoretical physics and is fascinating to some but to sell theory as fact is misleading and that is what I am trying to point out.

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 04:07 AM

I was going to mention earlier but forgot. As an example of keeping complex subjects simple, the excellent Bill Bryson book, A short history of nearly everything is very good indeed.

I know that Bryson is not an acclaimed scientist but he is a great Anglo-American writer and humourist that has the knack of explaining many subjects in an easy to digest and entertaining way. As the explanations are often his take on science I would not rely on his views being spot on but they certainly make the subject easier to understand.

And just for you, Donuel, I must comment that he mentions Richard Feynman very early on. Which is what must have reminded me but it took me days to look it up :-)

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 06:15 AM

What is simple are people who accept shit without question. Take the corporate organization. I see people who like to be systemized. One guy says everything will be fine if you accept that I am your boss and you will be my worker, Besides this BS website is a bit on the WASPY side you guys often accept your own nonsense without question. For example, you might say Ralph died of natural causes. I don't know anyone who died of unnatural causes.
What would an unnatural cause be? Being murdered by a time traveling multi dimensional insect?


Explain the universe in 4 simple sentences. Its a fools errend. It was tried in the Bible and we know how that BS turned out. So I will not bother to say 3 specific quarks are required to make a proton or a neutron. I leave most of your questions open to your own google endeavor. Be that as it may. You might realize that politics is a lot like comedy football - despite hecklers once in a while you find a path to open field and you score but most of the time its just a bunch of hitting and small losses. Maybe that's why football is so popular.

In conclusion, thinking outside the box is close to reality. You are probably in a box made by others. Your own box is preferable, whatever it is, even if it writing a Jewish version of Citizen Caine or Mein Kampf. Thats right the universe is on the absurd side and we try to systematize it according to rules we make up ourselves. Religions - we made them up. RIGHTS - we made them up. So we might as well make up good ones.

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 06:27 AM

Go and have a nice cup of tea.

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 07:40 AM

Well, sorry Donuel, but that is the biggest load of twaddle I have seen in a long time. Both style and content are lacking. There is no focus. I have no idea what you are referring to with most of it. There may be some gems of insight in there but they are lost in all the rubbish.

I know you are not in the least bit interested in my critique but please feel free to take or ignore my advice as you will. Be clear with what you want to say. Think about your target audience. If you disagree with anything I say just say so. I will not take offence. Other than that, unless you want me to address something specific, I'm afraid I must consign you to my list of people to ignore.

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 08:04 AM

"What is simple are people who accept shit without question....you guys often accept your own nonsense without question..."

Would you like us to accept your, er, shit and nonsense without question? Or were you trying to be ironic?

By the way, we all know what dying via "natural causes" does and doesn't mean. It's a linguistic device, not a technical term. We can help you with that if you'd like us to. Don't worry - you can question it if you like...

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 04:17 PM

I find the absurd responses pure comedy.
I don't think Einstein bounced his material off a crowd, he just had a handful of select friends and had his wife do most of his math. Later he gave the proceeds of his Nobel prize to her.

Its getting to the point where dictators and comics sound similar to me. When comics die on stage they sort of look like Khadaffi looked right before he actually died. Between the two I prefer comics
Some people march to the beat of a different drummer but I don't march and seldom care for drumming. Social media brings out the ass hole in folks for some reason.

Below the line I don't hear an original thought as much as I hear a critique. Rage drives social media as much as comedy. This site reminds me of Portlandia in that the cast take everything so seriously which makes the whole thing a comedy to the observer. I think Steve thinks his posts are timeless enduring and profound but the real punchline is that they are not. Like others, he does not know the difference between comedy and a normal narrative. Free association is costly in the real world but online its free. I know most of my posts reflect the current level of coffee in my bloodstream. By the law of averages I bet at least one mudcatter here has a lava lamp. By the same reason not one here has the answer to what the hell is dark matter or energy.

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 04:26 PM

BTW Dave is on point with my opinion of his unread critique. Ain't that typical. Dave there is room for a new superhero called the Convincer, he wins every argument or thinks he does.

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 05:22 PM

Your inferiority complex is showing through. By the way, I know nothing of social media. Have never indulged in any of it, not for a single minute.

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 05:48 PM

> the Convincer

He's hunkered down in Mar-a-Lago.

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 06:24 PM

More brain droppings; I am tolerant but I am not so tolerant as to tolerate intolerance.
I can be arrogant but not smug. Dave is smug but not arrogant. you know who is both.

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 06:31 PM

'Tis you.

"O, wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us!
It wad frae monie a blunder free us,
An' foolish notion.”

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 07:04 PM

Ignoring really is the only way forward now Steve. It worked with thingy and whatsit who's names have now been erased from my RAM :-D

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 07:20 PM

One other thing (hope you don't mind, Dave...): Dave and I are both northerners of similar age and (more or less!) similar politics and outlook on life. We have never met though I hope we can put that right some day. We have differed numerous times when it comes to perspective on various issues, but we have always managed to agree to disagree if necessary. Despite any differences we may have, our transactions have been nothing less than amicable every time.

On a number of occasions recently you have made some rather feeble attempts to drive a wedge between us by bigging up Dave and dissing me. That rather unsubtle approach has been quite apparent in recent times. Well don't think I don't know what you're up to, and I can tell you that you are on a hiding to nothing. I actually find this to be childish and I'm really sorry that you appear to be unable to come across here as a positive and cheery fellow who can express himself clearly and be humble enough to realise that you are no real authority on anything that you think you are. A good scientist is a good communicator. That's one hurdle you fall at every time. You really don't have to be like this. You need to take two steps back and reconsider the way you approach the rest of us here. Dave has given you good advice. As you won't listen to me (why should you? Why should anybody!), at least listen to him.

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 07:21 PM

Cross-posted there, Dave. You could be right!

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 07:30 PM

Anyway, enough of this. I have to go to Specsavers tomorrow. I think it's the Launceston branch, but if I find I've been misinformed and it's really the Barnard Castle branch, I'll call in on you Dave en route. I need to drive from Bude to Barnard Castle anyway, just to test my eyesight, don't you know...!

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 23 - 03:02 AM

A wedge is whenever you feel you are not the center of attention.

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Jan 23 - 03:33 AM

sheesh. Is that why you start so many threads, Donuel? I would probably often enjoy your posts if they stayed on my level....

Subject: RE: BS: KISS keep it simple
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 23 - 10:28 AM

You might enjoy them if you got a time machine. Be sure to set it to PRESENT.