Glueing Guitars for Different Climates

Subject: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 19 Jan 00 - 11:36 AM

This came up in a different thread, but it got me thinking. Are some guitars (even the expensive ones) not suited for certain climates? At first I doubted this, but a couple of folks e-mailed me with fairly convincing evidence that it might be true. Guitar maker Michael Larrivee visited here a few weeks ago, and since we've been talking about these fine instruments lately, I've written the company, inviting him to join in the discussion again. Perhaps he has some feedback in this area.
I took my old Larrivee on a merry chase for a number of years with no problems, but only in the Western Hemisphere. Anyone else have any thoughts?

Rick

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: MMario
Date: 19 Jan 00 - 11:43 AM

For a totally uninformed opinion,(regarding instruments and their crafting) but I DO know from various crafts that different glues have different characteristics, including flexibility at various temperatures, resistance to moisture, resistance to mold and/or microbial action, etc, etc. So I suspect that yes, there would be certain climates that would affect an instrument adversly should the glues/varnishes etc on the instrument not have been chosen with the conditions of that climate in mind....

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Jan 00 - 11:47 AM

I too would be interested in the comments from Larrivee. They build in a climate controlled atmosphere of sorts, but I cannot believe that they don't take into account the various conditions that some guitars live in.

There are obviously a lot of climatic changes that can affect a guitar or any wooden instrument. Humidity and temperature both affect woods as everyone knows. But with reasonable precautions, I fail to understand how much different Australia is from parts of North America.

As I am the one who volunteered to eat the Larrivee Parlor (if alison buys one and it falls apart), I look forward to whatever info that might be provided.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: Easy Rider
Date: 19 Jan 00 - 11:57 AM

Not to worry, Catspaw49, hide glue is edible, but Martin says they use seventeen types of glue in their guitars!

Most of the guitar is traditionally made with hide glue (basically hot gelatin and water - JELLO). Hide glue dries very rigid and doesn't creep, like a flexible glue, such as white glue, would. Rigid joints are very good for transferring vibrations without absorbing them.

The trouble is, hide glue is not waterproof, bad for very moist conditions, such as a tropical rainforest, but good for easy repairs and restorations.

Watch out for that nitrocellulose laquer finnish! I bet THAT is poisonous!

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: GUEST,Auxiris
Date: 19 Jan 00 - 12:23 PM

Just a quick word: I know of three people who own or have owned a guitar made by Jean-Pierre Favino, who uses hide glue. Two of these instruments (a guitar and an acoustic bass) have pratically fallen apart, one that stayed in France (one of the guitars) and one (the acoustic bass) that went to the United States whereas the one that abides in our household in France is still fine. So, is it JP Favino's whole instument building technique that is in question or is it just the hide glue he uses?

cheers, Auxiris

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: MK
Date: 19 Jan 00 - 12:29 PM

(Little bit of thread creep here...but Easy Rider's post got me to thinking...)

One of the things, I've always found interesting and somewhat disturbing about Martin's is that for decades, when adding the nitro cellulose laquer to the top finish, they always applied this finish right over the pick guard as well...and of course when the laquer dries and shrinks, due to changes in climate, the infamous ''pickguard'' crack is the result.

Luthiers at The 12th Fret in Toronto have told me that they consider this pickguard crack as ''standard'', and would be surprised to find any Martin made between say, 1930s till early 90s, without it.

It is only in the last few years, that Martin stopped applying the finish over the pickguard, and instead glue the pickguard on to the dried top.

WHY did it take them so many years, to wake up one day and go ''Duh. Perhaps we shouldn't be applying the finish to the pickguard as well?''

Thoughts? Comments? (sorry about the thread creep)

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: DonMeixner
Date: 19 Jan 00 - 03:18 PM

With guitars coming apart in diferent climates being the question I look at the preparation of the wood before i worried about the glue. If the wood is dried to a standard moisture level for bound water. Something like 6% bound water in the dried wood, the guitar would have to be immersed before it would come appart. The swelling of the wood with humidity is what tears appart guitars and other instruments that are glues with hide glue. An instrument build with improperly dried material might have this happen. The relatively soft and porous spruce top will take on humidity at a diferent rate than the ebony or rosewood bridge. In time the inflexible hide glue will shear and the bridge will pop. But if both pieces are dried to the same humidity level and properly sealed this bridge lifting is less likely to happen or when it does it will be much later in the life of the guitar or violin. It be more concerned with wood shrinkage tearing apart an instrument than a glue giving way. That doesn't mean I'd use Duco cement or Tacky Craft to reglue my O-16NY. Some glues will creep under steady preesure over time. The ususal white glue type is usually the culprit. I have a Hammered Dulcimer I built 15 years ago with Tite bond on the pin blocks that shows no problems in structure as a result of creep over that time. The weight of those strings is some considerable as Spaw will tell you.

Don

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: Willie-O
Date: 19 Jan 00 - 09:39 PM

I'm gong to this Oskar Graf guitar-making and repair workshop this Sunday. When I was talking to him about the workshop content he expressed enthusiasm for Krazy Glue repairs and promised to demonstrate or elaborate. Not sure if he just uses this for emergencies (pre-concert variety). Oskar is a HIGHLY respected luthier...this should be interesting! I'll report back.

Willie-O

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Jan 00 - 09:45 PM

Willie me boy....Do ask, as I too use some cyanos for small stuff...and yes, you can get it apart!

(and you're right Don....also, Larrivee is well known for their care in climate control and the way they treat woods)

Spaw

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: GUEST,Matt
Date: 19 Jan 00 - 10:06 PM

My buddy Bob just got a refund on a Martin OM28 after the braces came unglued and started rattling around inside the guitar. Elderly handled the deal with class. Timely thread.

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Jan 00 - 10:39 PM

The question Matt is ...Was it the glue or workmanship? And BTW, remember folks that glue is bought in large batches by bigger manufacturers and you CAN get glue that's not up to par.

Elderly is a great place!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: Willie-O
Date: 19 Jan 00 - 11:06 PM

Why didn't he just get them reglued? ITs a common & simple enough procedure.

Or did he take this as an omen that it would be a good guitar not to get attached to? Martins are kind of like that--I've had the same one for 20 years, despite its shortcomings and my constant scheming to wheel and deal it into a couple of different good guitars, I can't bring myself to do it.

W-O

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: GUEST,Chris/Darwin
Date: 20 Jan 00 - 01:46 AM

I have a Santos Hermanos guitar that I have had since about 1973. I was living in PNG at the time (Tropics), and one day in about 1977 there was a loud bang and the bridge came off, unfortunately in pieces.

I made enquiries with a guitar maker in Melbourne at the time, and he offered the opinion that hide glue can be attacked by micro-organisms (mould etc), and recommended a synthetic glue.

In the event I glued the new bridge on with PVA glue, and it is still there after 23 years. Apparently the water-soluble nature of PVA is not particularly important in the tropics, but resistance to mould is.

Mind you, I appreciated the hide glue when I had to repair the guitar a couple of years later (replaced back), as it was a breeze to pull it apart.

Regards
Chris

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 20 Jan 00 - 03:19 AM

The choice of glue is certainly important and humidity, heat and the presence of microorganisms can certainly affect this. I think of greater importance in different climates are the questions of extremes of relative humidity (extreme low rh usually causes more difficult long-term problems that are harder to fix) and, as various people have correctly pointed out, the differential rates of expansion of the different woods and other materials (bone, plastic, etc.) used in the construction of the guitar.

As I mentioned in the original thread, Lakewood have some useful advice on their website concerning these problems and I'm going to try my first clicky blue thing to put a link to the English part of their site (look under Lakewood-tips) in case anyones interested.

All the best,

mcmoo

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 20 Jan 00 - 03:25 AM

Hmmm...that didn't seem to work! Back to the html practice thread!

mcmoo

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 20 Jan 00 - 07:45 AM

I know this is kind of off topic but I was wondering..........
Easy Rider mentioned that hide glue was made from hot gelatin & water. Is it really true they use to take the old horses to the glue factory?

BB

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: DonMeixner
Date: 20 Jan 00 - 10:29 AM

Bonnie,

It truly is. Thats where my friends old Pinto LePages got his name.

Don

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 20 Jan 00 - 11:10 AM

Today's Kentucky Derby Winner is tomorrow's bridge adherent.

Rick

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Jan 00 - 12:41 PM

...and too, there's always room for ground up horse's hooves!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: MK
Date: 20 Jan 00 - 12:50 PM

.....everything you ever wanted to know about hide glues but were afraid to ask.

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: Bert
Date: 20 Jan 00 - 12:51 PM

More thread creep here. #1 son's girlfriend is building a balsa wood bridge for her science class. In the prototype she used super glue, the 'for wood' kind, but a couple of joints failed under load. So Guys, what's a good glue for balsa?

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: MMario
Date: 20 Jan 00 - 12:55 PM

Bert - way,way back in my model building days I always had more problems with the balsa failing then the glue...we always used elmer's wood glue

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Jan 00 - 01:00 PM

Bert, cyanos will work well, but buy the stuff direct or get it at a hobby shop...Don't use Borden's super glue!! Buy the gap filling type and preglue the joints. Almost every glue works better if you preglue!!! I'd use Franklin Tite bond II instead and again...PRE-GLUE!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: DonMeixner
Date: 20 Jan 00 - 01:12 PM

Guillow's used to have a product for this very operation called Hot Stuff! Specigfically for Balso wood.(From my days as a Hand Launch Glider Poster Child) But ever since they started coming appart in flight I've retired. My kids had the same projects in school. We used hot glue.` Better results.

Don

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: Bert
Date: 20 Jan 00 - 01:40 PM

Thanks, guys. I'll tell her.

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: longhair
Date: 20 Jan 00 - 01:59 PM

Boy, I love threads like this. This is very intersting to me. Thanks to Rick for starting it, and everyone else for contributing to it. Great information.. longhair

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: Bert
Date: 20 Jan 00 - 02:58 PM

Everything I needed to know, I learned at the Mudcat!

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: harpgirl
Date: 20 Jan 00 - 05:46 PM

...down here in the mildew capital of the south I use superGEL when I can find it! (I knew you'd be behind this thread, Rick! Interesting autoharp modification technique...come to Florida and we'll go see Mark Fackeldey make autoharps...with duckboots, of course!)harp (once again wodnering where all the women are on these threads!!!!)

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: GUEST,Scotsbard
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 02:08 PM

Many of the glued joints in guitars are subjected to a combination of shear or tensile stresses. The bridge usually has the highest loading, with areas near the neck joint, top bracing, and top plate edges significantly lower. A few places have compressive loading, but those areas rarely fail.

Most of these stresses are produced by the tension of the strings, but that tension is not constant. The tension varies repeatedly as the string vibrates, producing what engineers call asymmetric cyclic loading. Cyclic loading causes fatigue failures, in which small cracks develop, and then grow larger with each cycle. If you've ever bent something back and forth until it broke, then you've participated in cyclic fatigue.

This applies to glued instuments in several ways. The most obvious source of cyclic stress in an acoustic instrument is the vibration of the strings, but they are specifically designed to accommodate that problem. If the glue and the wood (or different woods) don't expand exactly the same with differences in temperature or humidity, then the glue and wood(s) can be significantly stressed. Removing all the strings at once can be a significant stress cycle, as can bending the neck for tremolo.

Another factor involved in the selection of instrument glues is the elastic modulus, which is a measure of a material's stiffness. For example, rosewood is generally much stiffer than pine or cedar. When the joint between two different materials experiences cyclic loading, usually the softer of the two materials fails. This problem becomes more complicated for wood, because wood has different elastic properties depending on the direction of the grain. Also, when a glued joint is not fitted properly, the thick layer of glue can begin to act as a third material, which causes additional stresses on either side of the joint.

To sum up, the various physical properties of the glue should match the wood(s) as closely as practical to prevent cyclic loading from causing fatigue failures near the glue joints.

Most glues are much stiffer than most woods, but one of the major advantages of using hide glue is that its elastic properties can be put in the same ballpark as common hardwoods. This probably occurs when the percentages of cellulose and collagen are properly matched. Most of the modern glues, such as epoxy or cyanoacrylate are much stiffer, and also do not match the wood in expansion when temperature or humidity changes.

The commercial carpenter's glues, such as Wellbond, Elmer's, etc. have too many plasticizers to be useful for instruments because of the creep they allow in constantly stressed joints. The same holds true for most of the hot melt glues. Beta-cyanoacrylates (the HotStuff mentioned above) are thick enough to bond softwoods well, but are also slightly soluable in water. Many commercial epoxies are too viscous for thin joints because they are intended to fill large gaps.

There currently seem to be few replacements for properly fitted parts and a strong hide glue, but some of the marine polyesters may work well for tough environments. Their low viscosity, excellent strength, and moderate elasticity should be effective for instruments. I've reglued several guitar bridges and one top plate for friends who live on sailboats, and almost a decade later the pieces are still stuck together. Unfortunately, such resins are usually supplied in a minimum of quart-size cans with about a thimble-full of catalyst.

For lower stress areas such as inlays or the back plate, any cyanoacrylate, epoxy, or stearate glue designed for wood should work reasonably well, even in humid locales. However, there is little substitute for properly fitted joints and minimizing the environmental cyclic stresses.

~S~

PS. If you must cycle between hot/cold or dry/damp locations frequently, mixed woods in the sound box (and heaven forfend, plywood) should be avoided.

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 02:45 PM

To just add a note to your excellent piece Scots........

The PVA glues do indeed have a plasticizing agent which also helps absorb shocks...BUT, anything that absorbs shock also absorbs sound! There are a couple of PVA's available that dry hard and are far superior to the carpenter's glues. One is available from Luthier's Mercantile.

I don't know which marine epoxy you are thinking of, but I personally believe that the best by far is WEST System Epoxy (Gougeon Bros. in Michigan, best source is West Marine--not related)and it is also available to the hobbiest types in usable quantities.

And as you said, nothing beats the proper fitting of any joint.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: DonMeixner
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 05:05 PM

Spaw,

A tight fit at any joint has long been a desired achievement.

Gougeon Brothers WEST Epoxy was some of the first epoxy used as a cell encapsulation of wood technique. Generally an entire hull was covered in epoxy, the seams filled with micro balloons and epoxy. This was an effort in economics to save hulls that were marginal at best. Usually it was a success.

I can't think of a place I'd use WEST on an instrument as a standard technique however.

I have built a dozen lap dulcimers of Blackwalnut over the last 20 years using Elmer's white glue and/or Tite bond with universal success. I agree that the glue should match the job. But back to the original comment, double entendre aside, the tighter the fit the better. I have matched spruce tops on dulcmers with such a nice fit that no clamping was required for a tite glue joint. Wish I could say they all fir that well. :-)

Don

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 05:22 PM

Sorry Don, I wasn't advocating it for instrument use...'cause it don't come apart for squat. I've redone a few sailboats with WEST and I use a lot of it for jobs like that. My poor 505 is sitting out uncovered and filling with ice slosh at the moment, but its a great testament to the benefits of WEST. If I'm not mistaken, didn't they do Ice Boats first?

Tite bond is a great glue to me, but for best results on instruments, next time try some of the white glue from Luthiers Mercantile. It really does dry nice and its resonant too.

...and no, I won't rehash the joke again.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: sophocleese
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 05:53 PM

This is a fascinating thread guys and girls. Wish I could do more than just read about it. My latest experiences with glue involved white glue and wallpaper paste for papier mache which is not the best material for an instrument, particularly in humid conditions, but it looks nice.

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 05:55 PM

Sounds great harpgirl! I agree, where ARE the women on threads like this?

Rick

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 06:08 PM

Oh well seeing the comments that sophocleese has made, I will also say that I am loving this thread. I often find the ones that involve instrument making (the rosewood thread was another) fascinating. I only with that I had the knowlede to conribute and perhaps more importantly to me, the skills necessary to make instruments... sadly I am a lost cause when it comes to wood work though - just have to settle for admiring the work of others.

Jon

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 08:50 PM

Rick, I for one am quietly reading this Thread.
Next time I go hardware shopping, the boys at Home Depot will be so impressed with my glue knowledge.

BB

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: Willie-O
Date: 23 Jan 00 - 08:06 PM

Bonnie, I doubt the boys at Home Depot will give you more than blank stares and disappear muttering about finding someone else to help you, if you ask them something more complicated than "white or yellow".

So I spent the day getting the scoop from Oskar, who as I said is a highly-regarded luthier with 30 years in the trade, and Scotsbard et al to the contrary, he glues almost everything with YELLOW CARPENTERS GLUE. But he specifies Elmers, not Lepage. Not kidding here. He makes beautifully joined, durable, great-sounding guitars, which are bought by very knowledgable and talented musicians (obviously I don't have one) at a starting price of about $3600 Cdn. He uses hide glue for joining tops and little else--doesn't care for the quick setup time, and says he never learned to use resin glues. (He allows that it can be a bugger to get a bridge off when necessary for replacement...)

He also said he uses West System epoxy in really, really desperate bridge repairs, as in on a cedar top that just doesn't want to hold it on...and Krazy Glue for crack repair.

He also says that American luthiers are generally a bit gadget-crazy; as an aging back-to-the-lander he prefers a more organic approach, although he is considering getting some power tools someday. It seems the trained beavers that do his resawing and shaping are getting more demanding and less productive...chalk it up to progress I supposed.

I remain your east Ontario correspondent...
Willie-O

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: Bert
Date: 15 May 00 - 12:36 PM

Someone was telling me that 'Gorilla Glue' is good for bridge repairs. Is that true? Any thoughts!

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 15 May 00 - 01:17 PM

I'm glad this thread was resurrected; I didn't catch it the first time around, but am reading it with much interest now.

I hesitate to add my two bits, as I have little expertise in glue types, instrument construction, etc. (I do have some experience with making tight joints, but I'll leave that for another thread). However, it seems to me that we're missing the obvious point here, which is -- don't subject your instruments to extremes of temperature or humidity in the first place. In my extremely humble opinion, you're just asking for trouble by doing this; if the glue doesn't fail, something else will. There's lot of excellent reading matter out there on how to maintain an instrument at something approaching normal temperature/humidity conditions (Taylor for one has made it something of a personal crusade). I suppose if we're all planning to take our guitars on that round-the-world rafting trip we've dreamed about, there might not be much we can do. But for most of us, heat your house, use a humidifier (or de-humidifier in some instances), don't leave your guitar in your car when you go to the beach, etc. Chances are this will prevent the majority of these types of problems, regardless of which glue your luthier of preference uses.

Whistle Stop (who will be sitting here waiting for one of the truly knowledgeable folks out there to tell me why I shouldn't have bothered psoting this)

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: Bert
Date: 15 May 00 - 01:30 PM

True Whiss, but the advice comes too late.

It's funny though, I bought my old Yamaha in Saudi Arabia where it's very hot and humid, brought it back here where it has spent time in the Colorado Rockies which are cold and dry, then on to Alabama, hot and humid again, now in Pennsylvania it gets hot AND cold and humid. And wouldn't you know it that guitar is just fine.

I've got a couple of guitars that need their bridges reattached. One is an old Kay and the damage was done when I bought it and the other an Ibanez - YES I left that one IN THE CAR and perdoiiing! the bridge popped off. Neither of them are worth taking for professional repairs. I paid about $10 for the Kay and $28 for the Ibanez. So I'll make myself a couple of clamps and stick 'em back together.

I was going to use Willie-o's suggestion and use yellow glue, but someone told me that some luthiers are using 'Gorilla Glue'. I'm not sure if it's true though.

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: Gary T
Date: 15 May 00 - 03:21 PM

Bert, I'm not familiar with these glues and don't know what "Gorilla Glue" refers to. I am familiar with some automotive adhesives, and one is affectionately called "gorilla snot". It's proper name is trim adhesive, and it's typically yellow and viscous, hence the nickname. If by chance this is what you are referring to, I'd be very leery about using it on an instrument without feeling I had solid information from a reliable source.

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: Bert
Date: 15 May 00 - 03:26 PM

That's not the stuff Gary.

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: GUEST,TwinRivers
Date: 16 May 00 - 09:23 AM

Don't overlook an important fact of bridge glueing: If your bridge Does Not come off in times of great stress (the car trunk in July) your guitar's top will end up resembling a wavy potato chip. The glue used to fasten a bridge needs to have this "release under stress" ability. $10 garage sale specials being the possible exception. Also check out a few bolt-on bridges that have wavy, distorted tops because the bridge couldn't fly off.

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 May 00 - 09:39 AM

PERSONAL OPINION: Gorilla Glue (sold by Woodworker's Store among other places) sucks big time. Don't use the crap. I tried to glue all kinds of stuff with it and I don't think the crap will hold two turds together. Either use Franklin Tite Bond or one of the Satellite City cyanoacryllics.

Gorilla Glue makes a foamy mess out of which you can sculpt tiny figures which will crumble apart within days. Really dynamite stuff. As a matter of fact, each bottle should come with a stick of dynamite to blow it to hell before you screw up and actually try to use it. They had a promo where you got one bottle free when you bought one. This was one helluva' deal since you got one to shit on and one to cover it up with.

Outside of the fact it doesn't work, I'd have to say that as a glue it would be suitable as a drain cleaner.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: Bert
Date: 16 May 00 - 10:15 AM

That's just what I wanted to know Spaw. I thought it sounded too good to be true. Thanks, I'll give Tite Bond a try.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 May 00 - 10:19 AM

Sorry Bert....I should have said "Franklin Tit-Bond II"....a little improvement over the standard Tite-Bond. There are a couple of others, but Franklin is easy to find.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 May 00 - 10:24 AM

Hmmmmmmmm..........Kinda' Freudian huh? That'd be TITE-BOND..........although I suppose Tit-Bond may have some interesting usages.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: Bert
Date: 16 May 00 - 10:45 AM

You KNOW you typed Tit-Bond on purpose!!!

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: RichM
Date: 16 May 00 - 02:13 PM

Tit-Bond, hmmm? If we keep this up, does that make us "Thread Creeps"?

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 May 00 - 02:22 PM

Well we can always transfer it over to one of the three "Breast" threads. But I don't mind, I'm one of the biggest creeps in the joint.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: Bert
Date: 16 May 00 - 03:30 PM

Three breasts! Now that sounds like a good deal!!!

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 16 May 00 - 06:44 PM

I am currently in the process of constructing my first guitar, and my choice of glue is the PVA sold by LMI, as recommended by Spaw. I have two observations to make here. First of all, what evidence is there that ordinary PVA (ELmer's White Glue) will "creep" under stress? I have heard this piece of folklore bandied about for years, but I have never seen any conclusive evidence to prove it. I have been a cabinet-maker ever since I left school, and my experience is that the wood will break before the glue joint,as long as the joint is tight !

Getting the joint between bridge and guitar top is a painstaking job requiring skill and time, and my guess is that any time a bridge joint fails it is because of poor fitting, not poor glue quality. I would go out on a limb here and suggest that Elmer's White would be perfectly acceptable on a perfectly prepared bridge/soundboard joint

My second observation is that I am amazed by Spaw's full-blooded condemnation of Gorilla Glue. Sam Maloof, who is to furniture making as Martin Simpson is to guitar playing endorses the product and says he uses it exclusivley in all his furniture. I have never used the stuff myself, but I must say I did give consideration to using it to glue my bridge on. Spaw's experience certainly gives me food for thought. I shall have to air this one on the MIMF Forum and see what everybody else has to say about it.

If the second half of this rambling all comes out in bold, I apologise, I am still trying to get the HTML right. If one line is bold then I have succeeded

Murray

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 16 May 00 - 06:46 PM

Damn. I will get it right yet .....

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: RichM
Date: 16 May 00 - 07:15 PM

I ain't a furniture maker...but it is true that guitars are under tension. I don't think furniture is...is it?

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 May 00 - 07:57 PM

Murray, I'd be happy to hear from someone else on the "Gorilla Glue" subject. Generally the products at "Woodworkers" are top notch and very reliable, but I swear to you, that stuff was crap. I complained to one of the guys there not too long afterwards and he said they'd had complaints. Offered to take it back, but I always feel funny about that...it wasn't their fault. But I never investigated beyond that point. For all I know it was a bad batch or maybe it got frozen. I tried gluing up a chair with it and it didn't hold worth a damn. I tried it on a "proto" Appalachian and even it had problems. I kept it around and tried using it on real basic joints, but I also found it to be messier than hell to use too. It bothers me that it foams so much when exposed to air as it dries.

The best and most useful in numerous ways (for me) of all the "Killer Glues" is still WEST System Epoxy. Gotta be careful with it, but damn, what a "grip."

Spaw

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 16 May 00 - 09:19 PM

Rich, you are perfectly correct, that is why I asked if there was any evidence as to PVA "creep". I have frequently (well, several times) glued up two pieces of wood straight off the jointer, and tried to break the joint. The wood always breaks, not the joint. What we are being asked to believe is that somehow, under tension, a glue joint of microscopic thickness somehow becomes plasticised and the glue "slips" but doesn't totally fail? I don't buy that, unless someone can show me hard experimental evidemce to the contrary. I do know that under extreme conditions of heat PVA can plasticize and will reconstitute in normal temperature, so I guess if someone left their guitar in the trunk under a noonday Florida sun, it is just conceivable that the bridge could move, and that somehow it would subsequently "reglue". But under normal conditions I do not believe that a properly fitted joint will fail or creep when glued with fresh PVA no matter how much tension is applied. The wood fibers will break first.

Spaw, I got to get to the bottom of this Gorilla Glue thing. Have you ever tried any other polyurethane adhesives, and if so did they behave similarly?

Subject: RE: Glueing Guitars for Different Climates
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 16 May 00 - 09:28 PM

Don't know what "Gorilla glue" is but I'm familiar with a product called "Gorilla Snot"...just forget what it's used for. Guess "Gorilla" is a funny word.

A question:

How would you remove the pickguard from a 1985 Martin D-35? (other than very carefully) What kind of glue do you think they used?

Thanks

Rick