BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 24 - 10:33 AM

Did they lean to the right? :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 10 Jul 24 - 09:53 AM

> I can just see Liz Truss as a plasterer. Jacob Rees-Mogg
> as a chippy.

Slapdash is what they were. I wouldn't trust either of them with any building-trade tool.

.... I wonder if they were responsible for the front room in our first house: every wall leaned slightly in or out, and there was not one corner of the room that contained a true right-angle. The entire row of houses was built on a slope, and they were only kept from sliding down it by the tops of the porches, like a row of drunks propping each other up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 24 - 03:27 AM

It was a bit of hyperbole to gee up our American friends :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Jul 24 - 02:54 AM

Dave the Gnome posted in the American Presidential thread:

"Far right kicked out in the UK
Far right kicked out in France
Come on, USA. Give us the hat trick! :-)"

Probably more accurate to say that the Far Right did not get in in France, at least not yet. It remains to be seen how things are going to work out there.

I would not call the Tory party Far Right, especially this last government which had ended up with some policies which were not the usual Tory fare.

I don't think the Far Right has been kicked out in the UK. The vote for the Right was split between the Tories & Reform. We are in an unhealthy position, especially when you consider nearly 40% did not vote.

Labour are in a position to be able to improve things and hopefully convince more people to vote for them at the next election. It will not be easy, especially dealing with the immigration issue. There are no easy answers for dealing with that, as can be seen by how other countries are trying to deal with it.

I wish Labour the best of luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jul 24 - 01:49 PM

I've just read this in John Crace's latest column:
Still, I suppose there are a lot of unemployed ex-Tory MPs, so maybe they might like to retrain for the construction industry. I can just see Liz Truss as a plasterer. Jacob Rees-Mogg as a chippy.
when I suddenly recalled those posters suggesting ballet dancers retrain in IT.

I might see if I can mock up an equivalent.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 24 - 12:19 PM

:-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Jul 24 - 05:21 AM

From 2016 (when it was topical)

It still seems topical now:

BOJO (ET TU GOVE)
Nigel Parsons 2016
Tune: Bobby Shaftoe

Boris Johnson, Dearie me.
Oh dear, the ignominy.
Will Gove prosper? Wait and see.
(But) Boris has been shafted!

   Boris Johnson, bright & fair.
   Can't control his shock of hair.
   Like a cuddly teddy bear.
   Bonnie Boris Johnson

Boris fought against Remain.
Thought he might the 'top job' gain.
Gove reneged, and, oh the pain.
Boris has been shafted!

   Boris Johnson, bright & fair.
   Can't control his shock of hair.
   Like a cuddly teddy bear.
   Bonnie Boris Johnson

Michael Gove has gone astray,
Let's support Theresa May.
Possibly he'll rue the day -
That he shafted Boris.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jul 24 - 05:58 AM

Good to see that Starmer has filled the Cabinet to a great extent with the people who had covered their ‘shadow’ briefs whilst in opposition, and thus have experience in their areas - in contrast to, for instance, Johnson’s weeding out of those who disagreed with him in 2019. Country first, party second - way to go.

And I strongly approve of the appointment of James Timpson - a man who has spent a lot of time in prisons, working with prisoners on rehabilitation projects, and who actively employs ex-prisoners in his shops.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jul 24 - 04:16 AM

Well, Labour have only been in power one day... What more can people want?

What they seem to be doing, namely appointing ministers with some knowledge of the subject of their departments. For the most of last 14 years, ministerial appointments have been about party management, which is how we ended up with something like 10 Education ministers in 14 years, with them tending to be in place for shorter and shorter terms. That was a pattern of all the ministries.

One newspaper had a moan that the ministerial appointments we just removing the 'shadow' for ministers. Obviously, the writer wanted excitement rather than people who had actually spent time thinking about the relevant ministry.

I am particularly taken with the appointment of Patrick Vallance to a a role in the Department of Science, and James Timpson to a role in prisons.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 04:45 PM

:-D Nice one Dick

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 03:50 PM

Southgate and Starmer seem to have something in common, both play a boring game but win

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 03:41 PM

Well, Labour have only been in power one day. The Rwanda nonsense has been cancelled and England are in the Euro semi finals. What more can people want? :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 10:36 AM

Thanks Dick. Glad we cleared that up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 07:55 AM

he out manouvered the members of his cabinet, unlike Cameron he knew what he was doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 07:07 AM

Seven members of the Cabinet, including Tony Benn and Michael Foot, favoured withdrawal.
Wilson overode them

No, as others have made clear, Wilson did not override them. He gave the UK public the choice to agree with either them or him.
A totally different way of dealing with the matter. If the public had agreed with Benn & Foot, Wilson had committed to accept the outcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 06:49 AM

Yes, I should have said for remaining in the common market. we all know the uk joined The Common Market or EEC, NOT the EU in 1973

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 06:25 AM

I am confused, Dick. You said (06 Jul 24 - 04:27 AM) "Harold overode cabinet minsters WHO WERE MPS to press for joiniing Europe", (emphasis on "joining") implying that Wilson called the referendum to JOIN the EEC (As it was) That was NOT, as I said, the purpose of the referendum in 1975. You then go on to point out exactly the same thing that I said. It was whether to remain in the EEC. Was your first statement a mistake?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 06:19 AM

Seven members of the Cabinet, including Tony Benn and Michael Foot, favoured withdrawal.
Wilson overode them

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 06:18 AM

No problem Dave. I find it really useful, and very easy to use. I wish I could remember, and thank, the member who wrote it - maybe Dave-Ro?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 06:14 AM

The 1973 enlargement of the European Communities was the first enlargement of the European Communities (EC), now the European Union (EU). Denmark, Ireland and the United Kingdom (UK) acceded to the EC on 1 January 1973.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 06:11 AM

The United Kingdom European Communities membership referendum was a public vote that took place on 5 June 1975, on whether the United Kingdom should remain a member of the European Communities which was principally the European Economic Community (the Common Market) as it was known at the time.
it was not about staying in the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 06:00 AM

Thanks BWM - I was aware of it but had forgotten due to old age, poverty and the Tories :-D

Bookmarked now

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 05:46 AM

The 1975 vote was not whether to Join the EEC, as it was then, but whether to remain in it or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 04:31 AM

@Dave - here ya go!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 04:27 AM

So Harold overode cabinet minsters WHO WERE MPS to press for joiniing Europe.
It appears I am better informed about uk politics, than our correspondent from Dover and Deal

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 04:22 AM

In a 1975 pamphlet Prime Minister Harold Wilson said: "I ask you to use your vote. For it is your vote that will now decide. The Government will accept your verdict." The pamphlet also said: "Now the time has come for you to decide. The Government will accept your decision — whichever way it goes."
Peter Shore was a cabinet minster in Wilson government who opposed Europe, There were other cabinet minsters too who opposed Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 04:17 AM

Dave, this ‘Simple Linkifier’, written by a Mudcat Member whose name I’ve forgotten, makes creating Blickies simpler, and it takes care of URLs which are too long for the standard ‘Make a link (“blue clicky”)” link.

I use it all the time - it’s dead easy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 04:01 AM

Good (and accurate I think) piece on UK referendums in Wikipedia. Too long for the standard link maker so C&P it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_the_United_Kingdom#:~:text=Only%20three%20referendums%20have%20ever,and%20became%20the%20European%20Union.

Interesting item in it. I suspect it could be the only thing that Clement Attlee and Margaret Thatcher could agree on :-)

"In May 1945 the then Prime Minister Winston Churchill suggested holding a referendum over the question of extending the life of his wartime Coalition until victory was won over Japan. However, Deputy Prime Minister Clement Attlee refused, saying "I could not consent to the introduction into our national life of a device so alien to all our traditions as the referendum, which has only too often been the instrument of Nazism and Fascism." In March 1975 Margaret Thatcher also quoted Clement Attlee that referendums are "a device of dictators and demagogues" as Napoleon, Mussolini and Hitler had exploited their use in the past."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 03:43 AM

Referenda: They've always been a bolt-on to the UK's body politic. I believe the first one in the UK was called by Harold Wilson to confirm Britain's EU membership; comment at the time was that he'd done so to go over the heads of [some of?] his Cabinet, who disliked the Common Market.

Please correct me if I'm misremembering. It's raining here, and the rising humidity is causing my brain to throw parity errors.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 03:15 AM

A better option would be to build closer ties and work toward a long term goal of eventually rejoining on the right terms."
Agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 02:45 AM

In a social media post, Mr Trump wrote: "Congratulations to Nigel Farage on his big WIN of a Parliament Seat Amid Reform UK Election Success.

"Nigel is a man who truly loves his Country."

Need I say more?

I truly despair at times. How can people be so blind as to not see through the facade of being "one of the people" that the slimy, grinning toad projects? Maybe it's me. Sigh...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 07:36 PM

Was the EU referendum advisory?

"In the end, the argument comes down to different visions for democracy in the United Kingdom. The conventional view is that ultimate political power lies with Parliament. The High Court came to its conclusion that the referendum was not legally binding guided by “basic constitutional principles of parliamentary sovereignty and representative parliamentary democracy”.

Cameron, PM at that time, said that he would accept the decision of a referendum.

The law may say that a referendum was not binding, but the government of the time agreed to be bound by it.
Admittedly Cameron, on getting the 'wrong' result, then jumped ship!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 05:00 PM

Amen to that, Dave!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 04:32 PM

Absolutely unnecessary. By voting for our MPs we explicitly give them the right to make major decisions about the running of the country. It is to be hoped that they will get the best expert advice to make these decisions but, sadly, that does not always happen. Still, I would trust the MP with access to all the facts over the bloke in the pub who read about it on Facebook any day.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 03:45 PM

I completely agree, Dave. And I think the new government will have more than enough on its plate trying to deal with the disaster-area the Tories have left. But, as the subject of Referendums had been brought up, I just wondered if one would be necessary. I don’t think so, but not sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 03:08 PM

I see even suggesting rejoining the EU as being too divisive at the moment. A better option would be to build closer ties and work toward a long term goal of eventually rejoining on the right terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 02:55 PM

Is a Referendum necessary for the government to begin negotiations for our re-admission to the EU? I can’t find anything to confirm that it would be.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 01:52 PM

It was not in the manifesto. Why do you think that was?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 01:34 PM

I do understand uk politics, a Referendum can take place, but why would lABOUR MPS with a MAJORITY and liberals mps who are pro European oppose a referendum on rejoining Europe, in practical terms you are talking bollocks

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 01:28 PM

In reply to Sandman



Was the EU referendum advisory?

"In the end, the argument comes down to different visions for democracy in the United Kingdom. The conventional view is that ultimate political power lies with Parliament. The High Court came to its conclusion that the referendum was not legally binding guided by “basic constitutional principles of parliamentary sovereignty and representative parliamentary democracy”.

In a parliamentary democracy, as barrister Rupert Myers bluntly puts it, “the people are not sovereign”.

That’s why Nigel Farage, for example, accepts that the referendum result was technically advisory only, but says that “I would now wish to see constitutional change to make referendums binding”.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 01:19 PM

As I said, Rain Dog, I believe that without Reform, the Tory vote would have just gone to LibDem, Green or other. I don't think that would have impacted the Labour vote. But maybe you are right so we can just agree to differ! Thanks for a good natured disagreement anyway:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 01:16 PM

Sandman you simply do not understand UK politics.

MPs are under no obligation to agree with a referendum result. That is what happened in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 01:12 PM

In reply to Dave the Gnome.

Here in Kent Labour gained 10 new MPs. I would say that it is unlikely they would have managed that without the Reform vote. Even here in Dover where Labour won with a majority of 7,000 (better than most of the other gains in Kent) it was still less than the combined Reform/Conservative vote.

The one standing Labour MP in Kent retained her seat. The sad fact is the Labour party probably wished that she lost.

Party politics, huh?

As I said earlier, I voted Labour.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 01:12 PM

I, for one, do not want rule by referendum. People are both ill informed and easily swayed when it comes to making decisions that affect all our lives. The last one was a prime example.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 01:08 PM

There is no reason why there should not be another referendum on rejoining Europe.
The role of whips has absolutely nothing to do with whether there should be another referendum on Europe.
I know as much as you do about UK politics,I lived in the uk from 1951 t0 1990
Anybody that states that the uk is not set up for referendums[is clearly ill informed when there have been 3 since.1975 two of them concerning respectively the common market and the second leaving Europe.
You may not like the result of the last referendum [neither do I], but they happen and can happen again, here is some info
The Government of the United Kingdom has also to date held ten major referendums within the constituent countries of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland on issues of devolution, sovereignty and independence; the first such referendum was the 1973 Northern Ireland border poll and, as of 2023, the most recent is the 2014 Scottish independence referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 12:17 PM

"about what? rentering Europe.
the uk is set up for referendums, There have been 3 since 1975.
Parties do control Their MPS they use people called Whips"

I guess you don't know too much about UK politics.

Here in Dover & Deal we have just elected a Labour MP
When parliament next meets there is nothing to stop that MP deciding to join any other party. The whips have no control. They can only threaten a MP with stopping or hindering his advancement in the party. The MP is under no obligation to take any notice of the whips.

Meanwhile as voters we will have to wait until the next election to take action against the MP.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 11:49 AM

”My comment was in response to the post from SRS”

Apologies RD, it appeared straight after mine, so I assumed (wrongly) you were replying to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 11:42 AM

Question from Rain Dog on the US presidential thread

"Yesterday the people of the UK voted for moderation in politics."

Seriously?

We have ended up with a party that is too far right for your tastes because a lot of people have voted for a far from moderate party.

Yes, seriously. We have booted out the showboating and stupid antics of the Eton Mess caused by Cameron, Johnson and the rest over the overprivileged crew. My comment about too far right was referring to Starmer but the Labour party is still based on the left wing principles of caring for those in need. It is my hope that ot will remain left of centre with repesentation from both sides of the party keeping excesses from either side in check. Reform took votes from the Tories but I do not believe that is how Labour won. If Reform had not have been there, the votes still would have cast aganst the Tories - Just in a different direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 11:30 AM

We can't get at the NYT article, Stilly. Can you post the gist for us please?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 11:16 AM

about what? rentering Europe.
the uk is set up for referendums, There have been 3 since 1975.
Parties do control Their MPS they use people called Whips