BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 02:12 PM

Thanks for that, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 06:48 AM

Sunak last night condemned the “violent, wholly unacceptable” scenes. He said both the far right and “Hamas sympathisers” had been responsible.

Liar. There were no violent scenes on a march of around half a million people (a bit of difference-splitting there). There was serious violence at the cenotaph, caused by a bunch of right-wing extremists. Out of that half-million, the police are looking for a handful of people who might have had pro-Hamas regalia. Sunak went on to condemn "antisemitic chants," by which I assume he meant "from the river to the sea", which is not an antisemitic chant. It was one of the largest marches ever in this country and it was entirely peaceful, but our scumbag prime minister couldn't resist making a false equivalence in order to apportion blame for the trouble in London yesterday. Both he and Starmer are refusing to call for a ceasefire. Make no bones about it: they are simply giving the nod to Israel to carry on with the killing. Despicable. There they both were this morning at the cenotaph, honouring the dead yet refusing to call for a halt to the killing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 23 - 04:27 PM

I have no idea what that's supposed to mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 23 - 06:11 PM

From a Guardian letter responding to suggestions that the marches on Armistice weekend should be called off, or even banned:

...I shall be marching for a small boy, surrounded by siblings, standing in the ruins of his neighbourhood whose cry, “We’ve done nothing wrong”, has so much more power and honesty than UK politicians who seek to divide us with their claims that the marches are “hate-filled” or “disrespectful”.

I'm not big on hate, but I could so easily come to hate these sanctimonious, mealy-mouthed hypocrites who appear on our screens to criticise the marches straight after we've just watched the nightly routine of the horrors being visited on the civilians of Gaza who have done nothing wrong. The people who we commemorate on Armistice day died so that those of us who come after can enjoy democracy, our human rights and freedom of expression. A plague on the houses of those hypocrites.

And please don't tell me that I'm not criticising Hamas or being fair to Israel. I've done that on every possible occasion in these threads, but my current gaze is on the plight of the benighted civilians of Gaza. That little boy is just one of thousands of children living or dying or being maimed for over a month in conditions that no child should have to endure, and we seem to have decided to be no more than spectators.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 23 - 09:32 AM

Well read it and see. I'd put it at dead-centre Labour.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 23 - 05:28 AM

Sorry, Nigel - I don't know where the 'ell that 'l' went...:-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 23 - 08:49 PM

Try having a read of it, Nige.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 23 - 06:34 AM

The only reason I will (extremely reluctantly) hope for at least two Labour terms after the next election is that Braverman is not unlikely to be the next Tory leader. The woman is the nearest thing to being a true fascist we have in Parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 23 - 07:03 PM

"David Lammy, the shadow foreign secretary who visited the region last week, said that the “number of dead Palestinian civilians and children is shocking” as he called on Israel to take further steps to stop a “humanitarian catastrophe”. He said that Israel “must uphold international law” and also warned of violence in the West Bank."

Talk about soft words. Why couldn't he say that Israel has been breaching international law for four weeks. Yes it's shocking. Yeah, David, how did we ever know that before you told us. Thanks for telling us what we already know in spades, David. Yes Israel should uphold international law. Thing is, Israel never does. But Lammy, a member of Labour Friends of Israel (aka a man in the pocket of the pro-Israel lobby) can't criticise Israel. His party leader will make sure of that. In a word, bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 23 - 03:30 PM

Starmer is wriggling. He's trying to shut up the critics in his party by "criticising" Israel, a little bit. But still no ceasefire call. No principles on show here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 23 - 09:56 AM

The lame-duck excuse I keep hearing from people like Starmer (and lots of Israeli big-shots and western leaders) is that we shouldn't have a ceasefire because we know that bastards like Hamas wouldn't stick to it anyway. Well blow me down. No giving peace a chance round 'ere, then...

The reason Starmer and Sunak won't call for a ceasefire has nothing to do with that. They are both in the pockets of the US, and the reason the US won't call for a ceasefire is that it's in the pocket of Israel and the pro-Israel lobby.

Call a ceasefire. Release all the hostages. Call off the collective punishment. Release the 5000 Palestinians who are in jail in Israel, a thousand or more held without charge, women, children, the lot. Then sit down and talk about it. If Paisley and McGuinness could do it, anyone can do it. I'm bloody sick of seeing the same outrages on me telly every night.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 23 - 10:49 AM

The daily newsletter from Labour List, not exactly known for being leftie, is exceptionally critical of Starmer's stance on Gaza-Israel. I suppose the conflict could have receded into the background by the next election, but, if it hasn't, and he maintains his one-sided stance on the issue, he could lose an awful lot of Muslim votes, many of them up in northern towns which he has to win or win back. He's also at odds with the SNP and large numbers of Labour MPs as well as the mayors of London and Manchester. I note that Starmer is a member of Labour Friends of Israel, along with people such as Yvette Cooper, the disreputable Margaret Hodge, David Lammy, Wes Streeting and Emily Thornberry. And that 76% of the electorate want a ceasefire. I know it's not just about votes, but can we have at least just a bit of principle and humanity from a party that likes to think it's socialist?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 23 - 06:51 AM

A below-the-line comment about Starmer in the Guardian:

"If you say Israel 'has the right' to withhold power and water from Gaza then, a few days later, following a consequent outcry, say ‘it is not and never has been my view that Israel had the right to cut off water, food, fuel or medicines,’ you are revealing three things about yourself.

You have appalling judgement, you are dishonest and you are a reactive, rather than a proactive, leader."

I couldn't agree more. Starmer is the wrong leader for Labour and he'd be the wrong leader for this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 04:43 AM

The inappropriately-named James Cleverly also seen darkening the doorstep of No. 10 this morning. More barrel-bottom scraping, methinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Nov 23 - 06:10 AM

An excellent poem from Paul Cookson, on FB today. Says it all…

”Daily poem - Suella Braverman, once again the inspiration ... unfortunately

LIFESTYLE CHOICE

I could have escaped to the country
I could have lived by the sea
I could have chosen anywhere
But this is the place for me
Handy for all amenities
In that I can rejoice
This tent in a high street doorway
That’s my lifestyle choice

Yes to the freezing nights
Yes to the driving rain
And if I had to choose once more
I’d choose the same again
Yes to constant hunger
Cold and always moist
This tent in a high street doorway
That’s my lifestyle choice

I love my cardboard notice
Asking for your charity
I love the fact I can rely
On other people’s sympathy
These things you don’t understand
While stuck in your Rolls Royce
This tent in a high street doorway
That’s my lifestyle choice

This is not a style of life
That I would recommend
To my worst enemy
Never mind a friend
But you hear what you want to hear
You cannot hear my voice
This tent in a high street doorway
That’s my lifestyle choice

Your ignorance – deliberate
Like the heartless views you voiced
Indicative of where you are
And your lifestyle choice

Poem 1195
Sunday 5th November 2023”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 11:10 AM

Our Prime Minister is not the same as your President.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 01:07 PM

"Both he (the Prime Minister) and Starmer are refusing to call for a ceasefire"

Meanwhile, in other news in Wales: The (Labour led) Senedd has called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and Israel.
The motion tabled in the Welsh parliament by Plaid Cymru urged for an end to "the appalling attacks on innocent civilians".
Welsh government ministers abstained from the vote - but Labour backbenchers were given a free vote on the motion and on an amendment tabled by the Conservatives.

From: Here

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Nov 23 - 08:25 AM

I'm sure that if I read 'Labour List' I would find it leftie even if not extremely so.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Nov 23 - 08:30 PM

"The daily newsletter from Labour List, not exactly known for being leftie,"

The title alone would suggest that it is 'leftie', although possibly not sufficiently so for those with more extreme views.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 10:20 AM

Cameron's post is minor

The Foreign Secretary is a senior position in the UK government. Along with the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Home Secretary, it is one of the four Great Offices of State.
DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Nov 23 - 04:14 AM

BBC Four recently transmitted a programme made in 1998 called The Fifty Years War: Israel and the Arabs. It is well worth watching for the background to these events.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Nov 23 - 01:00 PM

I have posted this elsewhere, but it bears repeating:

So the new brilliant scheme is to get Parliament to say Rwanda is safe. Not to address the Supreme Court's judgement it is not, nor to ensure it is, nor to press Rwanda to be safer, but simply to call it so.

Very Humpty Dumpty.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Nov 23 - 11:54 AM

It is looking like the pro-Palestine march in London has been very peaceful, despite the efforts of some anti-march protestors.

Now the remaining risk is what happens as people try to leave the march and head home.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Nov 23 - 12:50 PM

Damn! Forgot to close the link, and it seems to bring up adverts anyway. Try searching for the latest opinion polls and Mark Park had a table of about 8 of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Nov 23 - 12:48 PM


I have no idea who Mark Park is, but if this is accurate it suggests that, despite all the claims Labour is tearing itself apart over the IreIsrael-Palestine, it has little or no effect on their lead. These surveys seem to have taken place before Cummings and co were questioned by the covid enquiry.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Nov 23 - 11:46 AM

DIves and Lazarus
“Thou are none of mine, brother Lazarus,
Lying begging at my door,
No meat, no drink, will I give thee,
Nor bestow upon the poor.”


Some things don't change much.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Nov 23 - 08:16 AM

Thank you Steve, I do have far more questions than opinion.
I am monitoring British history from the Tudors to the Stuarts and as always listen to BBC. American history is a cinch compared to a thousand years of British history.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Nov 23 - 03:32 PM

I can also say we are allowed just one US political thread so keep your politics out of it please but I agree with free speech with all its curses and benefits. Let's keep your personal animosities out of it.
Comparing US reports to UK reports is sometimes different.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 07:02 PM

We have what is now called an Imperial President.
"Beware the demon pomposity".
Bob Woodward.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 10:35 AM

Thanks, I thought the Prime Minister was the only 'big boss'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 10:08 AM

Over here we have a big D and a little d.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 10:01 AM

I reckon ah jus reflects the opinion of MSNBC. Jus sayin.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 09:30 AM

Cameron's post is minor but it reflects poorly to his opponents.
Perhaps your conservatives are smarter than ours but I doubt it.
What you call the wrong side of the Atlantic, over here the conservatives went too far and have splintered their base.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 06:44 AM

Cameron is back in Government. It bodes ill for conservatives in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Nov 23 - 03:06 PM

Steve: Back to your lane.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Nov 23 - 09:41 AM

I poste dthis yesterday but it seems to have been lost in the latest cat litter cleanup. Apologies if it does appear twice

Cruella is now telling Fishy that his policies are not working

Funny. I'm sure she supported them until she was binned. Why on earth would she support something that she knew was not working? Not a career move surely ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 09:45 AM

Conservative with a big C is different to conservative with a little c Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 04:18 AM

Source BBC news BTW.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 04:16 AM

Ding dong the witch is dead... :-)

Mind you, we cannot celebrate yet as we don't yet know who will replace her. Cameron, the man who screwed up over Brexit, has been seen entering number 10!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 02:44 AM

Exactly. And now praising the police because she realised that slagging them off was a bad career move.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 05:10 PM

I see that Cruella has praised the police for "their professionalism in the face of violence and aggression from protesters and counter-protesters".

She really is a piece of work isn't she. There are no words strong enough to describe the disdain I have for the shower of shits that are supposed to be running the country. How anyone can continue to support them is beyond me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 03:37 PM

Nice to know that the land of my Fathers (Well, Mother's Mother) hasn't succumbed to the downward slide!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 12:51 PM

I was about to make the same point. This government has gone beyond despicable and sadly taken the opposition down to their level

Ah well. Just think how much worse things would have been with Corbyn in charge... :-S

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 23 - 04:39 PM

Yes, DMcG. It seems most arrests were of right wing anti-protesters!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 23 - 03:57 PM

I see that Bozzer has joined GB news

Need I say more?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 30 Sep 23 - 08:30 AM

Short quote from this week's New European, from Tanit Koch's "Germanspaining" column:

With the far-right AfD polling well above 20%, the public discourse has changed drastically. So former Bundenpräsident Joachim Gauck took the lead. He doesn't want to leave it to the extremists, who never solve problems because they live off them.

.... I've never heard the problem with extremists stated so concisely before.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Oct 23 - 07:25 AM

DtG the problem has been that for the last 13 years there has been a movement of the centre ground of politics increasingly to the right. We would all love to have radical socialist policies in place, but what was eft of centre 13 years ago are far left to where the political centre is now.

Labour cannot regain power until it has reclaimed the centre-ground, and then, and only then, it can start to move the pendulum back towards the left.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: peteglasgow
Date: 16 Oct 23 - 10:10 AM

i was a corbyn supporter but it was horrible canvassing for him in the last election in workington. i voted for starmer as leader - same policies (up the '19 manifesto!) plus electability. i've left the party (again - 3rd time. or maybe 4th) i;m now reduced to longing to see tory tears on election night and a hope for some decent policies. looks like we won't have a strong snp government as an inspiration either .all depressing

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 23 - 05:19 PM

He wouldn't let his ministers stand on health workers' picket lines, he told them that they mustn't join pro-Palestine demonstrations, he refused to back the nurses' and junior doctors' fight for fair pay. Now he refuses to criticise even the most egregious of Israel's outrages and he says they have every right to deny food and water to two million civilians, a war crime. That's not Labour and it's definitely not me. I've held my nose over several other of his swerves to the right, but I've had enough now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 23 - 12:00 PM

I didn't manage to read all that as it wouldn't format for me, but I got the drift. Again, the platitudes flow freely but there is no condemnation of the horrors inflicted by Israel, just that by Hamas. Inexcusable.