BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 06:07 AM

I'm not sure about 'favourite' war poem. 'For the fallen' also has resonances particularly with the very short extract used (and often misquoted) in the Remembrance Sunday services.
When I was working for HMRC (Hisssss) I used to put both on a staff contact website on 11 November morning to give those who had trouble with concentration for keeping a two-minute silence something to read.

For the Fallen

By Laurence Binyon

With proud thanksgiving, a mother for her children,
England mourns for her dead across the sea.
Flesh of her flesh they were, spirit of her spirit,
Fallen in the cause of the free.

Solemn the drums thrill; Death august and royal
Sings sorrow up into immortal spheres,
There is music in the midst of desolation
And a glory that shines upon our tears.

They went with songs to the battle, they were young,
Straight of limb, true of eye, steady and aglow.
They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted;
They fell with their faces to the foe.

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun, and in the morning
We will remember them.

They mingle not with their laughing comrades again;
They sit no more at familiar tables of home;
They have no lot in our labour of the day-time;
They sleep beyond England's foam.

But where our desires are and our hopes profound,
Felt as a well-spring that is hidden from sight,
To the innermost heart of their own land they are known
As the stars are known to the Night;

As the stars that shall be bright when we are dust,
Moving in marches upon the heavenly plain;
As the stars that are starry in the time of our darkness,
To the end, to the end, they remain.

Source: The London Times (1914)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 01:01 PM

‘In Flanders Fields’ is my favourite war poem, Nigel. Essex Farm was one of the truly moving highlights (if that’s the right word) of our trip to the Belgian WW1 battlefields, along with Tyne Cot cemetery, the German cemetery in Vladslo, and the Cloth Hall WW1 Museum in Ieper. We were fortunate also to be at the Menin Gate ceremony on the 11th November, a never-to-be-forgotten experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 12:44 PM

In Flanders Fields was written in 1915. Two years later:

Dulce et Decorum Est
By Wilfred Owen

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs,
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots,
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of gas-shells dropping softly behind.

Gas! GAS! Quick, boys!—An ecstasy of fumbling
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time,
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound’ring like a man in fire or lime.—
Dim through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil’s sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,—
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 12:30 PM

Just a reminder of the resonance of the poppy!

In Flanders Fields

By John McCrae

In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
    That mark our place; and in the sky
    The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
    Loved and were loved, and now we lie,
       In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
    The torch; be yours to hold it high.
    If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
       In Flanders fields.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 05:48 AM

> At least this madness will be reversed in 4 years.

.... 1461 days and counting.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 04:34 AM

One thing. At least this madness will be reversed in 4 years. Unlike Brexit!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 03:47 AM

A very sad day, Dave - for the whole world. Oh America, what have you done?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 02:23 AM

Sorry for bringing in outside influences but as we can no longer comment on the US election thread...

It will affect the UK and the rest of the world. Looks like we are fucked;-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 01:49 AM

No problem at all Thompson, I totally agree with your final point, it boils my piss too. I’m absolutely not a flag-shagger, in fact, I don’t like Nationalist symbols such as flags at all. But I do like the idea of the poppy as a symbol of Remembrance, and I don’t mind if people wear theirs for a period before and after Remembrance and Armistice Days. As I said previously, I regard the poppy as remembering all those from all sides who gave their lives in all wars from the Great War onwards. A life is a life, regardless of nationality, and every life lost is worth remembering.

On a tour of the WW1 battlefields in Belgium a few years ago, the most moving moment for me was in the German Cemetery in Vladslo, where the monument created by Käthe Kollwitz, ‘The Grieving Parents’, stands - it really brought home to me the utter futility and stupidity of war, and the universal grief of those whose loved ones are taken from them in war.

Käthe Kollwitz, “The Grieving Parents”

Thanks for your thoughtful response above - we’re really not that far apart, are we?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 01:20 AM

Backwoodsman, sorry. I was reactive and being "smart". Of course English people are entitled to their ceremonies and their patriotism.
But… I don't like the way that poppies seem to be required - apparently they're compulsory for people appearing on the BBC before 11 November. (I assume this is only for British people, but I'm not sure.)
To be clear, I don't like performative patriotism in my own country either, or in any country.
I do attend ceremonies commemorating our own war dead, which include members of my own family. But it absolutely grates on me when right-wing demonstrators carry our national flag, or claim that their type of patriotism owns or represents my country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 10:53 AM

So, according to the British Legion, it is to ”Unite across faiths, cultures and backgrounds to remember the service and sacrifice of the Armed Forces community from United Kingdom and the Commonwealth. We will remember them.”

Not quite as I thought, but far more than simple ‘patriotism’, and far, far deeper.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 10:07 AM

That's their problem, Raggy. AFAIC it's all those whose lives were taken, irrespective of what 'side' they belonged to. A life is a life, and dead men aren't an 'enemy' to anyone.

I'm pretty sure the RBL agree with me, but I'll check that when I get home.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 08:42 AM

Speaking from my own personal experience, of people I meet with very few even consider that combatants from other nations should be included in the events on Armistice day. Or even think that people from other nations died.

This is clearly evidenced by the recent documentary
https://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-soldiers-that-saved-britain

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 08:08 AM

It's a local custom for local people, and I'm not local, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 07:28 AM

So what we do for Remembrance in the UK, and how our TV Channels choose to present Remembrance, isn’t really your business then, is it?

If you don’t like our TV Presentations, why not stick to Irish TV?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 07:01 AM

Not resident in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 06:59 AM

Badenough has appointed the weasel, Chris Philp, as Home Secretary. More barrel-bottom-scraping…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 06:49 AM

”And of the survivors whose day to day care needs the support of the Earl Haig Fund, for which poppy sales is a major contributor.”

Spot on, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 06:47 AM

Are you resident in the UK?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 06:21 AM

I wonder is it really remembrance of those on all sides… surely if it were, the money collected from the sales would go to the survivors on all sides?
I've nothing against people wearing a poppy if they want - though preferably only on 11 November - what I can't stand is the performative requirement of it on UK TV stations, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 05:33 AM

Remembrance of those on all sides who died during The Great War, and all wars since.
And of the survivors whose day to day care needs the support of the Earl Haig Fund, for which poppy sales is a major contributor.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 05:00 AM

And you’re an intelligent being, Thomo - I’m sure you’re perfectly aware that wearing the poppy has little to do with ‘patriotism’ and everything to do with Remembrance of those on all sides who died during The Great War, and all wars since.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 04:57 AM

They wear the poppy in Canada - my BIL is currently out selling them every day.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 04:37 AM

Performative patriotism: England and its month-long poppyfest.
(As far as I know, other countries whose soldiers slaughtered and were slaughtered don't wear an equivalent. French prime ministers wear the cornflower, but only on the day at ceremonies of rememberance.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 02:01 AM

An interesting piece from Chris Mason, BBC Political Editor, suggesting that all is not well for the Tories under their new leader, Kemi Badenough (oops, sorry - Badenoch). Judging by the few shadow-ministers she’s already appointed, it looks very much like the same old, same old - Jenrick, Patel, Stride, yadda yadda. Not exactly inspiring stuff so far…

Chris Mason: Not exactly perfect harmony for Tories

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 02 Nov 24 - 06:30 PM

Thanks, Backwoodsman, have done so.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Nov 24 - 05:57 PM

Thompson, the Simple Linkifier that DaveRo wrote is ‘cleverer’ than the one you mentioned above - I use DaveRo’s script all the time and it does indeed take care of long links. I’ve linked to it below, and I suggest you save it as a Favourite…

https://revad.github.io/linkifier.html

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 02 Nov 24 - 04:15 PM

Bookmark my Simple linkifier to avoid breaking long links.
Is this the one that appears below the reply field ("Make a link ("blue clicky")? Because that's what I use normally.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 02 Nov 24 - 03:58 PM

"So Kemi Badenoch is the new Tory leader. They haven’t learned a thing, have they?"

Well it was not much of a choice was it?
But.
They decided to elect a female leader.
They decided to elect a non white leader.
Perhaps some other parties might take notice.

On another matter, I think it was mentioned that 131,000 members had a vote.

The vast majority of people here in the UK are not members of any political party. Come any election, we rely on the various parties to put up candidates to enable us to choose the least worst options. All the parties put forward their policies but how many have canvassed the opinions of the general public?

Over the years I have got fed up with all governments claiming to have a 'mandate' to inflict their policies on all of us. They might have a majority of seats but the fact remains that the majority of people did not vote for that party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DaveRo
Date: 02 Nov 24 - 02:26 PM

Thompson wrote: And so it begins.

Bookmark my Simple linkifier to avoid breaking long links.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Nov 24 - 10:42 AM

So Kemi Badenoch is the new Tory leader. They haven’t learned a thing, have they?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 01 Nov 24 - 06:09 PM

And so it begins.
In relation to paywalls, if you wait a few days a lot of things will appear on the Wayback Machine.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 24 - 12:53 PM

It said that I had reached my limit of free articles

Yes, Nigel, I think he had taken a leaf out of Nobby's policing manual :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 24 - 12:29 PM

”I cannot see the i article without paying :-(“

That’s strange, Dave - I didn’t have to pay and I could see the whole thing. Are you sure it’s not just a case of registering FOC to read their on-line articles?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 24 - 12:24 PM

…and I’m pretty sure Ian Dunt meant ‘simmering rage’, not ‘shimmering’.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 24 - 12:08 PM

”Does this mean that if Sunak had not objected, or had a laid back response, it would be proclaimed a bad budget? Is someone's only view of the budget based on whether it infuriates the opposition?”

You do yourself a great dis-service when your only response is to pretend to be thick Nigel. Please don’t, we know you’re not really that stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Oct 24 - 12:00 PM

Dave the Gnome: Yes, I only got as far as the headline before being asked to pay:
Want to understand how good this Budget is? Just look at Sunak’s shimmering rage

Does this mean that if Sunak had not objected, or had a laid back response, it would be proclaimed a bad budget? Is someone's only view of the budget based on whether it infuriates the opposition?
This seems no reasonable way to run a country (although not quite so bad as ladies in lakes handing out swords!)

As to your earlier comment but I cannot think of a justification to carry on punching and kicking when the guy was on the deck
It was Terry Pratchett (in Guards Guards) who wrote:
"“Corporal Nobbs,’ he rasped, ‘why are you kicking people when they’re down?’
‘Safest way, sir,’ said Nobby.”"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 24 - 10:41 AM

I cannot see the i article without paying :-(

Any chance of a synopsis?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 24 - 05:12 AM

Ian Dunt’s excellent piece In the i Newspaper about yesterday’s first Labour budget. I agree with him, and so so the IMF.

And wasn’t it wonderful to see Fishy Rishi losing his shit because he knew their greedy, self-servative ideology had just been shoved down the Tories’ throats…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 30 Oct 24 - 04:58 PM

I see Robert Jenrick is saying that colonised nations should be grateful for all the civilisation brought to them by colonisers. Sounds really great! Maybe some of England's former colonies could return the favour - say, India could have London, Pakistan could take Kent, Ireland might like to hold on to, say, Devon and Cornwall (source of some of the most notable kindly colonisers like Raleigh and Drake) for a few hundred years?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Oct 24 - 04:25 AM

Better to wait until all the facts have come out. .yes you are right about kicking him and punching on the ground

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 24 - 05:30 PM

Maybe the first blow could have been preemptive self defence but I cannot think of a justification to carry on punching and kicking when the guy was on the deck

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Oct 24 - 04:27 PM

whether it was right or wrong, and until i know what his provoker actually said, i will assume it was wrong it was a mighty left hook.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 24 - 12:22 PM

Don't like any of them, Dick, but to bring the topic back to politics, Members of Parliament in particular should never bully anyone. Nor should they be subject to stalking or intimidation for doing the job they were elected to do. If the bloke who was punched was Amesbury's stalker, he should have been stopped but Amesbury himself was wrong to take the law into his own hands.

Nigel, you were quite right to call this out and no amount of whataboutery excuses Amesbury's behaviour. Likewise, no amount of 'what about Labour?' excuses the antics of the Tories over the last few years. Whether more Tory wrongdoing is called out is because they do a lot more wrong or whether it is because the members on here are more left leaning is another matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Oct 24 - 12:12 PM

He could have a future career in a boxing ring.a good way or not a good way to deal with STALKERS? a good way to deal with bullies, any opinions
Dave the gnome what is your opinion on bullies, what is your opinion on stalkers, backwoodsman

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Oct 24 - 08:22 AM

…although the Labour Party have a very long way to fall before they plumb the depths your bunch of crooks and scrotes have sunk to over the past 14 years. But I don’t expect a Tory Fan-boi to acknowledge that fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Oct 24 - 08:19 AM

Well, for once, you seem to have got the point. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Oct 24 - 07:22 AM

To paraphrase the Good Book - “Let he whose party is without sin…”

Oh good. does that mean you'll stop carping on about the Conservative Party?

No?

I thought not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Oct 24 - 05:33 AM

from bbc news
In July 2023, a 56-year-old man was convicted of stalking and harassing the MP at his constituency office and in Frodsham town centre.

The court heard the offender had stared through the office glass, asked guards about their level of security, and followed and confronted Amesbury on several occasions.

At the time, Amesbury said it had resulted in him feeling "that little bit more anxious".

Listen to the best of BBC Radio Merseyside on Sounds and follow BBC Merseyside on Facebook, X, and Instagram. You can also send story ideas to [e-mail] and via Whatsapp to 0808 100 2230.quote


At this point in time, we do not know if this is the same man, neither do we know how the MP was threatened.
What we do know is this Helen Joanne Cox (née Leadbeater; 22 June 1974 – 16 June 2016) was a British politician who served as Member of Parliament (MP) for Batley and Spen from May 2015 until her murder in June 2016. She was a member of the Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Oct 24 - 05:19 AM

Careful, Nigel. People in glass-houses shouldn’t throw stones, and there are plenty of examples of thoroughly bad lots amongst the mob that you’re daft enough to support - two of the worst are currently vying for the boss’s job.

To paraphrase the Good Book - “Let he whose party is without sin…”