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BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3

MaJoC the Filk 14 Nov 24 - 04:27 PM
Backwoodsman 14 Nov 24 - 02:14 PM
The Sandman 14 Nov 24 - 01:28 PM
Backwoodsman 13 Nov 24 - 04:00 PM
Backwoodsman 13 Nov 24 - 08:50 AM
Backwoodsman 13 Nov 24 - 08:36 AM
Rain Dog 10 Nov 24 - 02:47 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Nov 24 - 11:14 AM
Thompson 10 Nov 24 - 11:05 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Nov 24 - 10:19 AM
Thompson 09 Nov 24 - 05:01 PM
DaveRo 09 Nov 24 - 03:44 PM
Thompson 07 Nov 24 - 12:38 PM
The Sandman 07 Nov 24 - 11:17 AM
Nigel Parsons 07 Nov 24 - 06:07 AM
Backwoodsman 06 Nov 24 - 01:01 PM
Thompson 06 Nov 24 - 12:44 PM
Nigel Parsons 06 Nov 24 - 12:30 PM
MaJoC the Filk 06 Nov 24 - 05:48 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Nov 24 - 04:34 AM
Backwoodsman 06 Nov 24 - 03:47 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Nov 24 - 02:23 AM
Backwoodsman 06 Nov 24 - 01:49 AM
Thompson 06 Nov 24 - 01:20 AM
Backwoodsman 05 Nov 24 - 10:53 AM
Backwoodsman 05 Nov 24 - 10:07 AM
Raggytash 05 Nov 24 - 08:42 AM
Thompson 05 Nov 24 - 08:08 AM
Backwoodsman 05 Nov 24 - 07:28 AM
Thompson 05 Nov 24 - 07:01 AM
Backwoodsman 05 Nov 24 - 06:59 AM
Backwoodsman 05 Nov 24 - 06:49 AM
Backwoodsman 05 Nov 24 - 06:47 AM
Thompson 05 Nov 24 - 06:21 AM
Nigel Parsons 05 Nov 24 - 05:33 AM
Backwoodsman 05 Nov 24 - 05:00 AM
Backwoodsman 05 Nov 24 - 04:57 AM
Thompson 05 Nov 24 - 04:37 AM
Backwoodsman 05 Nov 24 - 02:01 AM
Thompson 02 Nov 24 - 06:30 PM
Backwoodsman 02 Nov 24 - 05:57 PM
Thompson 02 Nov 24 - 04:15 PM
Rain Dog 02 Nov 24 - 03:58 PM
DaveRo 02 Nov 24 - 02:26 PM
Backwoodsman 02 Nov 24 - 10:42 AM
Thompson 01 Nov 24 - 06:09 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 Oct 24 - 12:53 PM
Backwoodsman 31 Oct 24 - 12:29 PM
Backwoodsman 31 Oct 24 - 12:24 PM
Backwoodsman 31 Oct 24 - 12:08 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 14 Nov 24 - 04:27 PM

Minor aside on Starmer et al not being sufficiently sharp after the election: My opinion is that they didn't have a credible government front bench to strop themselves against while in opposition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Nov 24 - 02:14 PM

One of the few positives to come out of Trump becoming President may well be that the UK builds a closer relationship with the EU and begins to reverse some of the damage brought down on us by the lunacy of Brexit…


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Nov 24 - 01:28 PM

This is speculation, but one possible result of a USA UK trade war, is that the UK is forced to negotiate trade deals with Europe


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Nov 24 - 04:00 PM

I also meant to say that I’m sure we won’t agree, but that’s fine - we’ve disagreed before, and I’m happy to agree to disagree rather than fall out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Nov 24 - 08:50 AM

Should have also said…

Whether they will use that victory to our best advantage remains to be seen. The disaster of fourteen years of Tory mis-rule can’t be fixed in a few weeks or months. It’ll take a long time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Nov 24 - 08:36 AM

On the ‘US Election’ thread, Big Al wrote…

”However our own record in voting for loonies is not exactly blameless. There was Thatcher who finished off 28% of manufacturing in one year. Then there was Cameron who walked out because the Brexit vote upset him. And I'm not over the moon with Keir Starmer.
I think the trouble resides in the fact that we have a media who misinform us. Trump's victory and Starmers have in common the fact that the overwhelming nature of thevictories seemed to creep up on them by surprise.
This to me, argues that they don't really know whats going at ground level.”


Well, I agree with your first sentence (although I disagree with your use of ‘our’ - I’ve never voted Conservative in my life) and, whilst I’m not over the moon with Starmer either, I do believe he’s a better bet than the Tory alternative(s).

You’re dead right about Thatcher, and you’re partially right about Cameron, except that he didn’t walk out because the Brexit vote ‘upset him’, he walked because he realised that the Referendum question had been badly worded, and also what an utter disaster his mistaken decision to break with tradition and allow the Referendum to depend on a ‘simple majority’had dumped the UK into whereas, if he’d worded the Referendum more carefully and stuck with the traditional requirement for a ‘Super-majority’ of 60-40, the ‘Remain’ vote would have won easily. He knew he’d fucked-up badly, and that leaving the EU was going to turn out exactly the way it has - a total balls-up, with the likes of you and me paying the bill for the rest of our lives, while the toffs made, and continue to make, an enormous killing.

You’re also right about misinformation, but our media had Labour leading by 20 percentage points for months, so I can’t agree that Starmer’s and Labour’s victory ‘crept up on them’ - they were fully aware that victory was coming.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 02:47 PM

"Very interesting view of how the war to end all wars happened."

I have not read the Harris novel. I did read an interesting review in Literary Review of

Disputing Disaster:A Sextet on the Great War by Perry Anderson

It is on my to read list.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 11:14 AM

Good un init :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 11:05 AM

Extraordinary, Davethe. What a song.
I've been reading Precipice by Robert Harris, a novel centred on the letters of Venetia Stanley to the prime minister of the pre-WWI and early WWI days, HH Asquith, which have been preserved, though his replies have not. Very interesting view of how the war to end all wars happened.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 10:19 AM

Mike Harding's excellent Christmas 1914

Best remembrance I know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 05:01 PM

Excellent!

In The Unpleasantness at the Bellona Club [set in 1921] by Dorothy L Sayers, Lord Peter Wimsey is able to date the murder of Gen Fentiman to 10 November and not, as first thought, Armistice Day, as the general was not wearing a poppy, which, of course, he would have been on 11 November.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DaveRo
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 03:44 PM

Some thoughtful responses today to the Guardian piece on “Has poppy mania gone too far?” My favourite:
I used to wear a white poppy for peace – alongside a red poppy, so that I didn’t get assaulted for wearing the white one!
Poppy mania and the endless fight for peace


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 12:38 PM

I can't stand any of those noble war poems. And I've heard former soldiers bitterly mocking them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 11:17 AM

Christmas: 1924
by Thomas Hardy
" Peace upon earth!" was said. We sing it,
And pay a million priests to bring it.
After two thousand years of mass
We've got as far as poison-gas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 06:07 AM

I'm not sure about 'favourite' war poem. 'For the fallen' also has resonances particularly with the very short extract used (and often misquoted) in the Remembrance Sunday services.
When I was working for HMRC (Hisssss) I used to put both on a staff contact website on 11 November morning to give those who had trouble with concentration for keeping a two-minute silence something to read.

For the Fallen

By Laurence Binyon


With proud thanksgiving, a mother for her children,
England mourns for her dead across the sea.
Flesh of her flesh they were, spirit of her spirit,
Fallen in the cause of the free.

Solemn the drums thrill; Death august and royal
Sings sorrow up into immortal spheres,
There is music in the midst of desolation
And a glory that shines upon our tears.

They went with songs to the battle, they were young,
Straight of limb, true of eye, steady and aglow.
They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted;
They fell with their faces to the foe.

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun, and in the morning
We will remember them.


They mingle not with their laughing comrades again;
They sit no more at familiar tables of home;
They have no lot in our labour of the day-time;
They sleep beyond England's foam.

But where our desires are and our hopes profound,
Felt as a well-spring that is hidden from sight,
To the innermost heart of their own land they are known
As the stars are known to the Night;

As the stars that shall be bright when we are dust,
Moving in marches upon the heavenly plain;
As the stars that are starry in the time of our darkness,
To the end, to the end, they remain.

Source: The London Times (1914)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 01:01 PM

‘In Flanders Fields’ is my favourite war poem, Nigel. Essex Farm was one of the truly moving highlights (if that’s the right word) of our trip to the Belgian WW1 battlefields, along with Tyne Cot cemetery, the German cemetery in Vladslo, and the Cloth Hall WW1 Museum in Ieper. We were fortunate also to be at the Menin Gate ceremony on the 11th November, a never-to-be-forgotten experience.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 12:44 PM

In Flanders Fields was written in 1915. Two years later:

Dulce et Decorum Est
By Wilfred Owen

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs,
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots,
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of gas-shells dropping softly behind.

Gas! GAS! Quick, boys!—An ecstasy of fumbling
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time,
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound’ring like a man in fire or lime.—
Dim through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil’s sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,—
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 12:30 PM

Just a reminder of the resonance of the poppy!

In Flanders Fields

By John McCrae


In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
    That mark our place; and in the sky
    The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
    Loved and were loved, and now we lie,
       In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
    The torch; be yours to hold it high.
    If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
       In Flanders fields.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 05:48 AM

> At least this madness will be reversed in 4 years.

.... 1461 days and counting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 04:34 AM

One thing. At least this madness will be reversed in 4 years. Unlike Brexit!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 03:47 AM

A very sad day, Dave - for the whole world. Oh America, what have you done?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 02:23 AM

Sorry for bringing in outside influences but as we can no longer comment on the US election thread...

It will affect the UK and the rest of the world. Looks like we are fucked;-(


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 01:49 AM

No problem at all Thompson, I totally agree with your final point, it boils my piss too. I’m absolutely not a flag-shagger, in fact, I don’t like Nationalist symbols such as flags at all. But I do like the idea of the poppy as a symbol of Remembrance, and I don’t mind if people wear theirs for a period before and after Remembrance and Armistice Days. As I said previously, I regard the poppy as remembering all those from all sides who gave their lives in all wars from the Great War onwards. A life is a life, regardless of nationality, and every life lost is worth remembering.

On a tour of the WW1 battlefields in Belgium a few years ago, the most moving moment for me was in the German Cemetery in Vladslo, where the monument created by Käthe Kollwitz, ‘The Grieving Parents’, stands - it really brought home to me the utter futility and stupidity of war, and the universal grief of those whose loved ones are taken from them in war.

Käthe Kollwitz, “The Grieving Parents”

Thanks for your thoughtful response above - we’re really not that far apart, are we?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 01:20 AM

Backwoodsman, sorry. I was reactive and being "smart". Of course English people are entitled to their ceremonies and their patriotism.
But… I don't like the way that poppies seem to be required - apparently they're compulsory for people appearing on the BBC before 11 November. (I assume this is only for British people, but I'm not sure.)
To be clear, I don't like performative patriotism in my own country either, or in any country.
I do attend ceremonies commemorating our own war dead, which include members of my own family. But it absolutely grates on me when right-wing demonstrators carry our national flag, or claim that their type of patriotism owns or represents my country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 10:53 AM

So, according to the British Legion, it is to ”Unite across faiths, cultures and backgrounds to remember the service and sacrifice of the Armed Forces community from United Kingdom and the Commonwealth. We will remember them.”

Not quite as I thought, but far more than simple ‘patriotism’, and far, far deeper.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 10:07 AM

That's their problem, Raggy. AFAIC it's all those whose lives were taken, irrespective of what 'side' they belonged to. A life is a life, and dead men aren't an 'enemy' to anyone.

I'm pretty sure the RBL agree with me, but I'll check that when I get home.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 08:42 AM

Speaking from my own personal experience, of people I meet with very few even consider that combatants from other nations should be included in the events on Armistice day. Or even think that people from other nations died.

This is clearly evidenced by the recent documentary
https://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-soldiers-that-saved-britain


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 08:08 AM

It's a local custom for local people, and I'm not local, of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 07:28 AM

So what we do for Remembrance in the UK, and how our TV Channels choose to present Remembrance, isn’t really your business then, is it?

If you don’t like our TV Presentations, why not stick to Irish TV?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 07:01 AM

Not resident in the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 06:59 AM

Badenough has appointed the weasel, Chris Philp, as Home Secretary. More barrel-bottom-scraping…


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 06:49 AM

”And of the survivors whose day to day care needs the support of the Earl Haig Fund, for which poppy sales is a major contributor.”

Spot on, Nigel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 06:47 AM

Are you resident in the UK?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 06:21 AM

I wonder is it really remembrance of those on all sides… surely if it were, the money collected from the sales would go to the survivors on all sides?
I've nothing against people wearing a poppy if they want - though preferably only on 11 November - what I can't stand is the performative requirement of it on UK TV stations, etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 05:33 AM

Remembrance of those on all sides who died during The Great War, and all wars since.
And of the survivors whose day to day care needs the support of the Earl Haig Fund, for which poppy sales is a major contributor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 05:00 AM

And you’re an intelligent being, Thomo - I’m sure you’re perfectly aware that wearing the poppy has little to do with ‘patriotism’ and everything to do with Remembrance of those on all sides who died during The Great War, and all wars since.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 04:57 AM

They wear the poppy in Canada - my BIL is currently out selling them every day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 04:37 AM

Performative patriotism: England and its month-long poppyfest.
(As far as I know, other countries whose soldiers slaughtered and were slaughtered don't wear an equivalent. French prime ministers wear the cornflower, but only on the day at ceremonies of rememberance.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 02:01 AM

An interesting piece from Chris Mason, BBC Political Editor, suggesting that all is not well for the Tories under their new leader, Kemi Badenough (oops, sorry - Badenoch). Judging by the few shadow-ministers she’s already appointed, it looks very much like the same old, same old - Jenrick, Patel, Stride, yadda yadda. Not exactly inspiring stuff so far…

Chris Mason: Not exactly perfect harmony for Tories


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 02 Nov 24 - 06:30 PM

Thanks, Backwoodsman, have done so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Nov 24 - 05:57 PM

Thompson, the Simple Linkifier that DaveRo wrote is ‘cleverer’ than the one you mentioned above - I use DaveRo’s script all the time and it does indeed take care of long links. I’ve linked to it below, and I suggest you save it as a Favourite…

https://revad.github.io/linkifier.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 02 Nov 24 - 04:15 PM

Bookmark my Simple linkifier to avoid breaking long links.
Is this the one that appears below the reply field ("Make a link ("blue clicky")? Because that's what I use normally.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 02 Nov 24 - 03:58 PM

"So Kemi Badenoch is the new Tory leader. They haven’t learned a thing, have they?"

Well it was not much of a choice was it?
But.
They decided to elect a female leader.
They decided to elect a non white leader.
Perhaps some other parties might take notice.

On another matter, I think it was mentioned that 131,000 members had a vote.

The vast majority of people here in the UK are not members of any political party. Come any election, we rely on the various parties to put up candidates to enable us to choose the least worst options. All the parties put forward their policies but how many have canvassed the opinions of the general public?

Over the years I have got fed up with all governments claiming to have a 'mandate' to inflict their policies on all of us. They might have a majority of seats but the fact remains that the majority of people did not vote for that party.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DaveRo
Date: 02 Nov 24 - 02:26 PM

Thompson wrote: And so it begins.
Bookmark my Simple linkifier to avoid breaking long links.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Nov 24 - 10:42 AM

So Kemi Badenoch is the new Tory leader. They haven’t learned a thing, have they?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 01 Nov 24 - 06:09 PM

And so it begins.
In relation to paywalls, if you wait a few days a lot of things will appear on the Wayback Machine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 24 - 12:53 PM

It said that I had reached my limit of free articles

Yes, Nigel, I think he had taken a leaf out of Nobby's policing manual :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 24 - 12:29 PM

”I cannot see the i article without paying :-(“

That’s strange, Dave - I didn’t have to pay and I could see the whole thing. Are you sure it’s not just a case of registering FOC to read their on-line articles?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 24 - 12:24 PM

…and I’m pretty sure Ian Dunt meant ‘simmering rage’, not ‘shimmering’.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 24 - 12:08 PM

”Does this mean that if Sunak had not objected, or had a laid back response, it would be proclaimed a bad budget? Is someone's only view of the budget based on whether it infuriates the opposition?”

You do yourself a great dis-service when your only response is to pretend to be thick Nigel. Please don’t, we know you’re not really that stupid.


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