Am I Right About This? (Bonnie Bessie Logan)

Subject: Am I Right About This? (Bessie Logan)
From: Darren Raleigh
Date: 23 Jun 23 - 08:46 PM

Hello,I'm in the process - actually almost finished - of making a harp/vocal arrangement of "Bessie Logan." And I've read something that makes me want to check it out amang the experts here.

Using (most) of the Dougie McLean lyrics, I have the third line of the last verse as, "for noo I lie with this ain, until the day I die"
...and since I took "ain" to mean "something unchangeable about a situation," some cosmically unchangeable condition, what I took the line to mean is - and I'll need some latitude here:
"For now I live with this (unchangable condition; his love for a woman for whom he is ridiculously too old) until the day I die."
Right? It's pretty sad, but one of the reasons I want to perform the song is my belief that it happens a lot more often than anyone ever talks about - why would they?
But I've just come across a post that says that what the line means is, essentially, "but I'm married to this awful woman forever and so there's no hope."
And, well, I like my version a lot better. So,
am I right?
Cheers,
Darren

Subject: ADD Version: Bonnie Bessie Logan (from MacLean)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jun 23 - 09:16 PM

Hi, Darren. Here's a link to Mainly Norfolk (click) which has a couple of versions of the song.

I didn't find "Bessie" on Dougie MacLean's Website, so here are the lyrics I found on one of "those" generic Internet Websites.

BONNIE BESSIE LOGAN

Bonnie Bessie Logan she's handsome, young, and fair,
And oh, the very wind that blows lingers in her hair;
She's lithesome, young, and lovely as she comes o'er the lea,
But Bonnie Bessie Logan was owre young for me.

Bonnie Bessie Logan, the lads all lo'ed her style,
And all come on afore her tae win her lovin' smile;
I fain would be among them but och that canna be,
For Bonnie Bessie Logan was owre young for me.

Bonnie Bessie Logan, she stole my heart awa',
And when I think upon her the tears doon softly fa';
For noo I lie wi' this ain until the day I die,
For Bonnie Bessie Logan was owre young for me.


I listened to this Dougie MacLean recording and cleaned up the generic transcription.

Generic transcription: https://genius.com/Dougie-maclean-bonnie-bessie-logan-lyrics

Subject: RE: Am I Right About This? (Bessie Logan)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jun 23 - 09:37 PM

In Mudcat's QuickLinks dropdown menu, we have a Scots Glossary that may be helpful to you.

I interpret "For noo I lie wi' this ain until the day I die" as "Now I lie with 'this one' until the day I die." In other words, he chose somebody else, and he's stuck with her for life because they got married. And the term "this ain" implies at least a modicum of disdain, and regret for having married someone other than the partner of one's dreams.

The song is Roud 21824, which has three entries, all recorded.

Subject: ADD Version: Bonnie Bessie Logan
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jun 23 - 09:59 PM

The only printed version of the song that I'm finding is from here:
https://archive.org/stream/laterpoemsofalex00ande/laterpoemsofalex00ande_djvu.txt
This is a 1913 book titled Later poems of Alexander Anderson, "Surfaceman". So, are we to take it that this song was written by Alexander Anderson (1845-1909)?

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Thread #158499   Message #3749271
Posted By: GUEST,#
08-Nov-15 - 11:47 AM
Thread Name: Origin: Bonnie Bessie Logan
Subject: ADD Version: Bonnie Bessie Logan

From pp 115-6 at

https://archive.org/stream/laterpoemsofalex00ande/laterpoemsofalex00ande_djvu.txt

BONNIE BESSIE LOGAN.

O, BONNIE Bessie Logan
    Is dainty, young, and fair;
The very wind that's blawin'.
    It lingers in her hair.
Sae lichtsome is her footstep
    As she comes o'er the lea ;
But bonnie Bessie Logan
    Is owre young for me.

O, bonnie Bessie Logan,
    The lads are at the stile,
Or half-way up the loanin'
    To catch your winsome smile;
I fain wad be amang them,
    If sic a thing could be,
But bonnie Bessie Logan
    Is owre young for me.

O, bonnie Bessie Logan,
    I saw you late yestreen ;
A rose was on your bosom,
    And love was in your een.
I doot the lad that pu'd it
    Is sure to win his plea,
For bonnie Bessie Logan
    Is owre young for me.

Subject: RE: Am I Right About This? (Bonnie Bessie Logan)
From: Helen
Date: 23 Jun 23 - 11:26 PM

Joe, I would have guessed "this ain" to mean "this one".

Subject: RE: Am I Right About This? (Bonnie Bessie Logan)
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 24 Jun 23 - 06:03 PM

For what it's worth, Google Books has a more readable edition of the Anderson book at https://www.google.com/books/edition/Later_Poems_of_Alexander_Anderson/pkc0AQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=surfaceman&printsec=frontcover.

There is a fair bit of oral change to the song considering how thin the tradition is.... I put a version in the DT many years ago, based on the Dougie MacLean recording, but I'll admit to having long wondered if the song was actually traditional -- I thought someone was trying to pretend it was traditional because the subject has become so toxic.

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BONNIE BESSIE LOGAN (DT Lyrics)

Bonnie Bessie Logan, she's handsome, young, and fair,
And O! the very wind that blows lingers in her hair.
She's lithesome, young, and lovely as she sails o'er the lea,
But bonnie Bessie Logan was ower young for me.

Bonnie Bessie Logan, the lads all lo'e her style,
And a' gae on afore her to win her lovin' smile.
I fain wad be amang them, but och that cannae be,
For bonnie Bessie Logan was ower young for me.r

Bonnie Bessie Logan, she stole my hairt awa'
And when I think upon her, the tears doon softly fa'.
For noo I lie wi' this ane until the day I dee,
For bonnie Bessie Logan was ower young for me.

Recorded by Dougie Maclean on "Craigie Dhu."

glossary:
a': all
afore: before
amang: among
ane: one (person)
awa': away
cannae: cannot
dee: die
doon: down
fa': fall
gae: go
hairt: heart
lo'e: love
noo: now
och: (interjection)
ower: over
wad: would
wi': with

@Scottish @youth @love
filename[ BONBESLO
RW

Subject: RE: Am I Right About This? (Bonnie Bessie Logan)
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 23 - 10:37 AM

Thanks to all you experts; I see now what I must do:honor the ancient tradition and invent a new lyric to replace that one that I will.not sing.
Cheers,
Darren

Subject: RE: Am I Right About This? (Bonnie Bessie Logan)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jun 23 - 12:13 PM

In other words, the sentiment expressed in the song is perhaps a bit less than admirable.   ;-)

But hey, it's been an interesting discussion.

Subject: RE: Am I Right About This? (Bonnie Bessie Logan)
From: GUEST,Nigel
Date: 25 Jun 23 - 04:00 PM

"Bonnie Bessie Logan" could be "ower young for me", if she was 20 and the singer 60. There seems to be an assumption that "BBL" is a child, perhaps the more likely option, but not necessarily the case. Nobody knows.

The OP interpreted a line as : "but I'm married to this awful woman forever and so there's no hope." Why assume "awful" ? Maybe he just meant "another".

"I interpret "For noo I lie wi' this ain until the day I die" as "Now I lie with 'this one' until the day I die." In other words, he chose somebody else, and he's stuck with her for life because they got married. And the term "this ain" implies at least a modicum of disdain,"
Maybe it just fits.

What is it that.... "I will not sing" ?
Just curious.

Subject: RE: Am I Right About This? (Bonnie Bessie Logan)
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 25 Jun 23 - 04:15 PM

Nigel wrote, "Bonnie Bessie Logan" could be "ower young for me", if she was 20 and the singer 60. There seems to be an assumption that "BBL" is a child, perhaps the more likely option, but not necessarily the case. Nobody knows.

True, but when people don't know, they assume the worst. :-) What matters, from the standpoint of transmission, is not what the author thought but what the rest of us think. My personal feeling, when I transcribed my version of the text a third of a century ago was that BBL was in her teens and the singer perhaps in his thirties. This was not backed by any evidence in the Maclean recording, of course.

But, given the presumed author's dates, it's worth noting that, in the early to mid-nineteenth century, the age at which a girl in Britain could marry was twelve, and that that eventually was legally changed. One might wildly speculate that the song involves the change.

In any case, not much chance that BBL reached the age of twenty without getting married.

Of course, May-December, or for that matter, March-July, marriages were much more common then than they are now. Why BBL was too young for the singer is genuinely open to speculation. Maybe her parents explicitly ordered him to stay away. It certainly happened!

Subject: RE: Am I Right About This? (Bonnie Bessie Logan)
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 26 Jun 23 - 04:25 AM

BBL has many suitors, so I can't see that she is a child, too young to marry anybody at all. It's just that she's too young for the singer. We are not told how much older he is, so we can make our own assumptions about that, or no assumption.

Subject: Re: Bonnie Bessie Logan
From: Reinhard
Date: 26 Jun 23 - 12:12 PM

Alexander Anderson's poem and the early recordings of John Mearns and Ian Manuel all have the same three verses. From the recordings I know of, Dougie MacLean's 1983 version on his album Craigie Dhu seems to be the first version with the verse that has the "For noo I lie wi’ this ane until the day I dee" line. I wonder if MacLean was the one who composed this verse? If not he, who else?

Subject: RE: Am I Right About This? (Bonnie Bessie Logan)
From: GUEST,Lang Johnnie More
Date: 26 Jun 23 - 01:38 PM

I'm 99% certain Dougie MacLean got this song from Alex Campbell. You should maybe check Campbell's version.