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Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III

Stilly River Sage 21 Jul 24 - 11:05 PM
Stilly River Sage 20 Jul 24 - 10:50 AM
Stilly River Sage 15 Jul 24 - 11:34 AM
Stilly River Sage 05 Jul 24 - 11:22 AM
Stilly River Sage 03 Jul 24 - 04:44 PM
Stilly River Sage 03 Jul 24 - 11:32 AM
Helen 02 Jul 24 - 10:50 PM
Helen 02 Jul 24 - 03:51 PM
Backwoodsman 02 Jul 24 - 10:43 AM
Stilly River Sage 02 Jul 24 - 09:25 AM
Backwoodsman 02 Jul 24 - 08:08 AM
MaJoC the Filk 02 Jul 24 - 08:04 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Jul 24 - 07:29 AM
Stilly River Sage 01 Jul 24 - 10:45 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Jul 24 - 05:04 PM
Helen 01 Jul 24 - 04:12 PM
Stilly River Sage 01 Jul 24 - 03:32 PM
MaJoC the Filk 01 Jul 24 - 03:17 PM
Helen 01 Jul 24 - 02:49 PM
Stilly River Sage 01 Jul 24 - 11:00 AM
Stilly River Sage 01 Jul 24 - 10:05 AM
Stilly River Sage 29 Jun 24 - 05:08 PM
robomatic 29 Jun 24 - 02:20 PM
Helen 29 Jun 24 - 02:16 PM
Stilly River Sage 29 Jun 24 - 12:32 PM
Stilly River Sage 29 Jun 24 - 09:45 AM
The Sandman 29 Jun 24 - 04:15 AM
The Sandman 29 Jun 24 - 03:46 AM
robomatic 28 Jun 24 - 01:51 PM
Stilly River Sage 28 Jun 24 - 08:58 AM
gillymor 28 Jun 24 - 08:23 AM
Dave the Gnome 28 Jun 24 - 05:16 AM
Helen 28 Jun 24 - 04:58 AM
gillymor 22 Jun 24 - 11:43 AM
Stilly River Sage 22 Jun 24 - 11:00 AM
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Dave the Gnome 21 Jun 24 - 08:22 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Jun 24 - 10:11 AM
Stilly River Sage 18 Jun 24 - 04:20 PM
robomatic 16 Jun 24 - 04:35 PM
Dave the Gnome 15 Jun 24 - 05:57 AM
Helen 15 Jun 24 - 03:26 AM
Stilly River Sage 14 Jun 24 - 10:56 PM
Backwoodsman 13 Jun 24 - 03:23 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jun 24 - 02:59 AM
Helen 12 Jun 24 - 06:49 PM
Stilly River Sage 12 Jun 24 - 05:43 PM
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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 11:05 PM

The Stormy Daniels GoFundMe account pushed up the goal and hasn't met it yet - I think pushing it up was a mistake, but perhaps the change in the landscape as far as Harris now at the top of the ticket may cause people to want to put the Stormy Daniels issues to bed. They reached the $1M goal, but then changed it to $1.25M. It's at $1,077,508 right now.

Trump is now the oldest candidate ever, and after making a huge case against Biden's age, not only is Trump old, he's an indicted and convicted criminal. He chose a VP candidate with few qualifications based upon conditions that no longer exist. Trump's a rambling idiot, terribly flawed, and the discussion has come up about the GOP trying to push him out of the race. Not likely - Trump is in it for himself, not for the country or his party.


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 10:50 AM

For a summing up of what happened: Judge dismisses Trump documents case over special counsel appointment from NPR.

Some followup: Jack Smith's Three Options After Aileen Cannon Dismisses Case from Newsweek
A number of legal experts have laid out how Smith or the Department of Justice (DOJ) could still seek to prosecute Trump over allegations that he illegally retained classified materials after he left office in January 2021, then obstructed the federal attempt to retrieve them.

These include appealing the decision and having it overturned via the courts, or having the case refiled without Smith acting as special counsel.

Smith is likely first to appeal Cannon's ruling to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit, which has previously overturned some of the judge's decisions in the classified documents case.

Smith could also seek to have Cannon removed from the case altogether in the wake of her latest ruling via the 11th court.

Former federal prosecutor Joyce Vance suggested this outcome would be the "icing on the cake" for Smith, as Cannon has long faced criticism for her rulings in the federal case which some say appear to have benefited Trump.

Even if Smith loses an 11th circuit appeal, the prosecutor will likely take the case to the Supreme Court as an option to keep the federal case against Trump alive.

Speaking to ABC News, former federal prosecutor Josh Naftalis suggested that Smith could even bypass the 11th circuit altogether with an expedited appeal, meaning the Supreme Court could rule on the arguments immediately.

"This is probably another Supreme Court case, for better or for worse," Naftalis said.

The rest is at the link.


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Jul 24 - 11:34 AM

The recent supreme court decision that gave Trump carte blanche gift to commit crimes as official acts, should he find his way back to the White House, had some extra stocking stuffers. Clarence Thomas answered a question that no one asked - he set up a "road map" for the Florida federal judge to dismiss the stolen documents at Mara Lago case, and she did just that this morning. The premise is that the special counsel wasn't appointed in a legal way (regardless of the fact that special counsels were set up the same way going back many presidential administrations, including Trump and the Mueller case.

So, that can be appealed and it can be refiled by a different justice department prosecutor. But that trial won't happen before the election.

The case in Washington, D.C., is likely to be returned to Judge Chutkan on Friday this week, and she'll have to look at the decision and decide which of his acts have immunity and which can go forward with criminal charges.

Judge Chutkan's Trump Delay Offers Possibility of 'Other Movement'—Attorney
The article quotes Joyce Vance, a former federal prosecutor:
"This coming Friday, by my count, Judge Chutkan's jurisdiction over the Special Counsel's election interference case will resume when the judgment is returned to her from the Supreme Court," she wrote.

"No one knows exactly how she will proceed after the Supreme Court gutted the case with its finding of broad presidential immunity and prohibition on the use of any evidence that involves 'official acts.' Now we will finally begin to learn what Judge Chutkan's plan for moving forward is, including whether she intends to hold an evidentiary hearing to separate official acts from private ones.

"She must determine what charges in the indictment may proceed despite the immunity grant and what evidence the government is still entitled to use."

"The [Supreme] Court seemed to suggest that much of what Judge Chutkan must make decisions about are fact-based inquiries, which many commentators suggested would be an opportunity for the Judge to hold an evidentiary hearing," Vance added.

She said this would be "a mini-trial of sorts" that would expose "much of the evidence a jury would have heard if the case went to trial."


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 11:22 AM

This morning she is up to $912,000 toward the $1M goal. Getting her out from under Trump's thumb will be a welcome move.

It seems there is always new material to mine when Trump's folks get their comeuppance. Lincoln Project apparently posted a jab at Bannon in prison, one of those "don't drop the soap" references, that has prison rights activists complaining. I don't get the impression that Danbury minimum security prison (this is the "high profile" prison for rich folks) has gangs. It's the punchline when talking about prison for rich folks (does it have a golf course?)

Trump can go there. I don't care. Just put him in prison. Except that's federal, and he would more likely end up at Rikers, next to his former COO.


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 04:44 PM

As of this afternoon, $708,000 to help Ms. Daniels. This is in 18 hours since Maddow's interview; I hope pundits are reading something into this. It's a damned shame the bulk of the money raised has to go to Trump for those legal fees. As she said last night, it isn't fair, when he set all of this in motion.


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 11:32 AM

Rachel Maddow did a long-form interview with Stormy Daniels last night. There was quite an "ick" factor, because they read through the transcripts of things that didn't go out over the air during the trial. She was not happy about the events in that hotel room.

During the program, Rachel noted that Daniels has financial problems because a decision that worked against her meant she had to pay Trump's legal fees (back in ~ 2018). It was the same kind of thing as in the E. Jean trial, but worked against Daniels. At any rate, a friend of hers set up a GoFundMe account to cover her legal bills and last night when I looked in it was at $30,000. Now it is up to $624,000. I made an anonymous donation (who wants their name on a list Trump Trolls can mine?) Part of Daniels problem is from refusing to fill out information on a form that would have included her 13-year-old daughter's name and address. Daniels herself was doxxed (a form was put up during the trial, and she pointed out to the judge that it had her address. She had to say it twice.) A sidebar resulted in the form being taken off of the screen and not entered into the record, but all of the attorneys and court officers could see that address before the form was taken down. Her home address was put online during that hearing. She wasn't paid or compensated for her time and travel during the trail (to which she was subpoenaed.)

Andrew Weissman yesterday pointed out that the sentencing date pushed to September is not a bad thing - it puts it right in front of the election "when people are starting to pay attention." (Hard to imagine that anyone isn't riveted to this news now, but whatever). And if Trump wants to appeal the conviction and sentence, the deciding body for any complaints is the New York Supreme Court, not the US one. That could come later, but way after the election.


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Helen
Date: 02 Jul 24 - 10:50 PM

Rudy Giuliani disbarred in New York as court finds he repeatedly lied about Trump's 2020 election loss

"In short:

"Rudy Giuliani, the former New York City mayor, federal prosecutor and legal adviser to Donald Trump, was disbarred in New York after a court found he repeatedly made false statements about Trump's 2020 election loss.

"Mr Giuliani actively contributed to the fallout following the 2020 presidential election, the court said.
What's next?

"He is facing criminal charges in Georgia and Arizona over his role in the effort to overturn the 2020 election."


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Helen
Date: 02 Jul 24 - 03:51 PM

News just in:

Donald Trump's sentencing delayed after US Supreme Court ruling on presidential immunity

"A New York judge has delayed Donald Trump's sentencing for criminal conduct until September at the earliest, after the former US president asked for a chance to argue he should have been immune from prosecution.

"The former president's sentencing, for falsifying business records to disguise hush money paid to porn star Stormy Daniels, had been set for July 11.

"But it faces potential complications after the US Supreme Court ruled on Monday, local time, that ex-presidents have some immunity from criminal prosecution in some circumstances.

"The postponement delays the sentencing until at least September 18, well after this month's Republican National Convention, where Mr Trump is set formally to accept the party’s nomination for president in this year's race."


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 24 - 10:43 AM

The Supreme Court should be apolitical, not a tool of the political parties. And this latest piece of BS is proof absolute. Judges should not be appointed by Presidents, nor on the basis of their political leanings.


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Jul 24 - 09:25 AM

The way it was written, the Supreme Court would have to decide in the end, in any given case, what is "official" versus "unofficial." They could give no examples of these things during the reading of the decision. So something they let Donald get away with they wouldn't let Biden get away with.


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 24 - 08:08 AM

Well I’m glad it’s not just me who’s jaw-dropped, Dave. I just don’t ‘get it’ how the judges can make this stuff up on the hoof - isn’t Congress the legislature of the US? Shouldn’t a change in the law require an Act of Congress?


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 02 Jul 24 - 08:04 AM

Points of order:

* Is the ruling in question retroactive?

* There's been much discussion on the wireless this morning. It's been suggested that said ruling seems to be so tightly fitted to Don the Con's circumstances that it couldn't be used in other cases.

Adjudication, please.


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 24 - 07:29 AM

Have I got this right - The supreme court have ruled that the president of the USA is immune from proscecution for "official acts"?

Heaven help us all and protect ups from the American "justice" system...


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Jul 24 - 10:45 PM

I've heard about it. Perhaps it is time to look it up.

Trump's lawyers announced today they are going to ask the judge in his payments to Stormy Daniels trial to set aside the verdict, based upon the Supreme Court ruling today. But what he did was totally a private act, a non-official act, and the State of New York found him guilty. The lawyers didn't turn in their recommendations for his punishment that were due today (the prosecutors, the parole department, and the defense all get to give an opinion to the judge). So who knows what will happen next week.

Stay tuned.


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 24 - 05:04 PM

Have you not seen Bad President ?


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Helen
Date: 01 Jul 24 - 04:12 PM

When this is all over - will it ever be over? - just think of the TV series and Hollywood movies which will be made, each with their own take on who Trump really is, and then there will be the comedy takes on it all, but for now, it's all drama.


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Jul 24 - 03:32 PM

Trump ally Steve Bannon arrives at federal prison to begin 4-month sentence - and every time another one of his cronies goes to prison, it makes it more imaginable that Trump could end up there also.

Trump is convicted, and if he is given a prison sentence, it's not like he reports directly to the hoosegow (only in Perry Mason). He then has to go through another bond process to stay out of jail during his appeal (is my rough understanding of how that can work). All of those steps, and of having a parole officer, are things that would work against any other candidate. Donald still has a lot of Teflon stuck to that orange exterior, though it has been pierced, so we're on pins and needles to see the outcome. Until the next outcome rolls along . . .


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 01 Jul 24 - 03:17 PM

> [Trump] has said very little about what he hopes to do
> if he is re-elected

In a word: Revenge.


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Helen
Date: 01 Jul 24 - 02:49 PM

Interference in Ukraine by Russia with Trump's blessing and Manafort's assistance! OMG. Unbelievable in any normal times but just another Trump era escapade to add to the list of his misdemeanors.

I'm starting to realise why Putin was smirking at Trump when they met. I thought it meant that Putin thought Trump was an idiot. Now I think Putin just thought Trump was a performing monkey in a circus, trained to do any trick Putin wanted, easily used for his own ends.


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Jul 24 - 11:00 AM

Trump is getting a big bang from those Supreme Court appointees - he is given limited immunity, and the writeup is just starting so you'll have to read more detailed articles later to get the fine points.

6-3 decision along party lines, that Sotomayor said "never in the history of our republic . . . The long term results are stark" as she described as immunity from horrible behavior. He'll be able to take bribes legally, let people buy pardons, etc. Making him a king.

The one plus - should Trump get into office, he wouldn't be able to charge Biden (for simply being Biden.)

We have to get through this election and immediately pass some laws that render that decision null.

With this decision, things outside of official activity are not immune, but that looks like a huge gray area while someone is in office.

"Just slap the label 'official act' on it and do what you want," says Neal Katyal.

CNN has coverage and should be readable without a paywall.

There will be a lower court hearing to discuss official acts (and it gives Judge Chutkan a lot more "official" material to look through) and decide how much of the cases Jack Smith brought can go forward. She will still have some material to work with, but they've put hurdles in the way.


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Jul 24 - 10:05 AM

Today is the last day of this year's Supreme Court session, so it is expected they will release the decision about Trump's claim of immunity (scroll to the bottom). Unless they punt it to next session (beginning first Monday in October).

Meanwhile, Heather Cox Richardson has spelled out the facts behind one of Trump's claims about the Ukraine during the debate (after saying he alone could get Putin to release Gershkovich, the Wall Street Journal reporter on trial now). Not sure if this is part of the public content (I paid for her Substack "Letters From An American" after the debate, to get sound information about the context of these political times). I've read the free stuff for quite a while. June 28, 2024 in which she discusses how Trump has today been interfering with negotiations to release Gershkovich, and how Putin's debt to Trump goes back to early planning of the annexing eastern Ukraine, ahead of starting the war.

She says:
Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s 2019 report on Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election explained that Paul Manafort, Trump’s campaign manager and then conduit to Russian operatives, in summer 2016 “discussed a plan to resolve the ongoing political problems in Ukraine by creating an autonomous republic in its more industrialized eastern region of Donbas, and having [Viktor] Yanukovych, the Ukrainian President ousted in 2014, elected to head that republic.”

Manafort had helped to get the pro-Russian oligarch Yanukovych into office, and when Yanukovych fled to Russia after the Ukrainian people threw him out, Manafort was left unemployed and in debt to other oligarchs. When he went to work for Trump, for free, he promptly wrote to his partner Konstantin Kilimnik, whom the Republican-dominated Senate Intelligence Committee identified in 2020 as a Russian operative, asking how “we” could use the appointment “to get whole,” and made sure that the Russian oligarch to whom he owed the most money knew about his close connection with the Trump campaign (p. 135).

The Mueller Report continued: “That plan, Manafort later acknowledged, constituted a ‘backdoor’ means for Russia to control eastern Ukraine” (p. 140). The region that Putin wanted was the country’s industrial heartland. He was offering a “peace” plan that carved off much of Ukraine and made it subservient to him. This was the dead opposite of U.S. policy for a free and united Ukraine, and there was no chance that former secretary of state Hillary Clinton, who was running for the presidency against Trump, would stand for it. But if only Trump were elected….

And, in November 2016, he was.

According to the Republican-dominated Senate Intelligence Committee, Manafort’s partner and Russian operative Kilimnick wrote that "[a]ll that is required to start the process is a very minor 'wink' (or slight push) from D[onald] T[rump] saying 'he wants peace in Ukraine and Donbass back in Ukraine' and a decision to be a 'special representative' and manage this process." Following that, Kilimnik suggested that Manafort ‘could start the process and within 10 days visit Russia ([Yanukovych] guarantees your reception at the very top level, cutting through all the bullsh*t and getting down to business), Ukraine, and key EU capitals.’ The email also suggested that once then–Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko understood this ‘message’ from the United States, the process ‘will go very fast and DT could have peace in Ukraine basically within a few months after inauguration’” (p. 99).

According to the Senate Intelligence Committee, the men continued to work on what they called the “Mariupol Plan” at least until 2018.

There's quite a bit more to this column, if you can open the link.

Once Biden was in office the Trump folks were no longer fiddling in Ukraine affairs, and Putin went ahead and invaded.
Trump was able to dismiss the Mueller Report, with the help of his then Attorney General Barr, who offered a "summary" to the public that had nothing to do with what was actually in the report.

This is something else that Trump should be charged with, but chances are slim it would ever happen. Manafort and a couple of others did go to prison (though Trump pardoned Manafort, who is now working in the background of the Trump campaign.)


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Jun 24 - 05:08 PM

The Supremes didn't give Steve Bannon a get out of jail free card.
The Supreme Court on Friday rejected former Trump adviser Steve Bannon’s effort to avoid prison while he appeals his contempt of Congress conviction.

The court dispensed with the case in a brief order. There were no noted dissents.

Bannon, a conservative podcast host and former strategist for Donald Trump, asked the Supreme Court last week to pause his prison sentence. A federal judge ordered Bannon to turn himself in by July 1 to begin serving a four-month sentence.

The order came months after another former Trump adviser, Peter Navarro, similarly failed to receive a break from the conservative high court. In his filings with the Supreme Court, Bannon pointed to the House’s plans – approved on party lines – to weigh in on the merits of his appeal as it proceeds in DC’s federal appeals court.

Now the question is - will the Trump sentencing hearing be broadcast?

Major media outlets push for live coverage of Trump's sentencing in 'hush money' case
To satisfy “unparalleled public interest” and ensure transparency, a coalition of prominent media organizations has petitioned for the upcoming sentencing of Donald Trump in the Manhattan “hush money” case to be televised.

Representatives from major outlets, including the Associated Press, New York Times, and Wall Street Journal, argue that broadcasting the July 11 hearing live would allow the American public to witness the culmination of Trump’s legal saga firsthand.

This move comes in the wake of Trump’s conviction on 34 felony counts related to falsifying business records linked to payments made to silence allegations from adult film actress Stormy Daniels ahead of the 2016 election.

“Given Mr. Trump’s candidacy in the upcoming presidential election just months away, the historical and political significance of his sentencing cannot be overstated,” attorneys stated in a June 21 filing to Justice Juan Merchan of the Manhattan Supreme Court. . . . Trump faces a potential sentence of up to four years in prison, but alternatives like probation or community service are also on the table. His conviction marks a historic moment as the first former US president found guilty of felony criminal charges.


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Subject: RE: Trump INDICTED x4 NO new Trump threads part III
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Jun 24 - 02:20 PM

Sandman you wrote:

"Biden was struggling with his words despite having two breaks."

You may not be aware (as I was not aware until recently) that Biden had speech impediment issues when he was young. They could be re-assertiing now that age is catching up with him.

I agree with your observations. I do not think that in his case they indicate COGNITIVE issues. In other words his verbal slips are more typo issues than intellect issues. His opponent has major issues, moreover, all his people, friends, political supporters, and judicial picks, have or will have major detrimental issues for the United States (although the United States will survive).

Of course, your mileage may vary.

See the entire essay by historian Heather Cox Richardson for context into what was actually going on. ---mudelf


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Subject: RE: Trump INDICTED x4 NO new Trump threads part III
From: Helen
Date: 29 Jun 24 - 02:16 PM

Thankd you Stilly. That makes a lot of sense.

If Biden can address the issues and lies raised by Trump when Biden holds his rallies or in his ad campaigns he might be able to counteract the lies effectively and promote his own strengths and achievements.

I was beginning to believe that Biden was going to concede defeat at the Democratic Convention and allow another candidate to stand but I'm starting to wonder whether he may have been lulling Trump into a false sense of security so that he can expose his vulnerabilities more effectively. From what I have seen so far of Trump's campaign, he has said very little about what he hopes to do if he is re-elected so there is a bit of insight into his plans - allowing for the fact that his brain waves blow about in the wind and whatever he says he will do could be something completely different.

I live in hope. I just wish the court case about storming the Capitol could have been scheduled before the election, and I am waiting and hoping for a useful punishment to be revealed from the Stormy Daniels trial which may put some limits on Trump, in some way. Although I bet it doesn't, considering he is already using campaign funds that he has raised to pay his legal debts already and another financial penalty will mean very little to him.


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Subject: RE: Trump INDICTED x4 NO new Trump threads part III
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Jun 24 - 12:32 PM

We will resume the discussion of the Trump indictments and trial results. His dirty tricks are legion, and the courts are where he's getting his comeuppance.


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Subject: RE: Trump INDICTED x4 NO new Trump threads part III
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Jun 24 - 09:45 AM

Trump's folks calculated how to deploy Biden's speech impediment to their advantage - the way Trump rattled off lies gave no chance to respond to each in turn, there were too many. This was a debating technique called the Gish Gallop.

This from historian Heather Cox Richardson:
Trump also directly accused Biden of his own failings and claimed Biden’s own strengths, saying, for example, that Biden, who has enacted the most sweeping legislation of any president since at least Lyndon Johnson, couldn’t get anything done while he, who accomplished only tax cuts, was more effective. He responded to the calling out of his own criminal convictions by saying that Biden “could be a convicted felon,” and falsely stating: “This man is a criminal.” And, repeatedly, Trump called America a “failing nation” and described it as a hellscape.

It went on and on, and that was the point. This was not a debate. It was Trump using a technique that actually has a formal name, the Gish gallop, although I suspect he comes by it naturally. It’s a rhetorical technique in which someone throws out a fast string of lies, non-sequiturs, and specious arguments, so many that it is impossible to fact-check or rebut them in the amount of time it took to say them. Trying to figure out how to respond makes the opponent look confused, because they don’t know where to start grappling with the flood that has just hit them.

It is a form of gaslighting, and it is especially effective on someone with a stutter, as Biden has. It is similar to what Trump did to Biden during a debate in 2020. In that case, though, the lack of muting on the mics left Biden simply saying: “Will you shut up, man?” a comment that resonated with the audience. Giving Biden the enforced space to answer by killing the mic of the person not speaking tonight actually made the technique more effective.

There are ways to combat the Gish gallop—by calling it out for what it is, among other ways—but Biden retreated to trying to give the three pieces of evidence that established his own credentials on the point at hand. His command of those points was notable, but the difference between how he sounded at the debate and how he sounded on stage at a rally in Raleigh, North Carolina, just an hour afterward suggested that the technique worked on him.

It wasn't a real debate, there was no real-time fact checking, they didn't do anything to keep Trump on topic.

Biden doesn't need to ever talk to Trump in person again, and it seems that this gaslighting adventure is another reason why.


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Subject: RE: Trump INDICTED x4 NO new Trump threads part III
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jun 24 - 04:15 AM

I am sorry if my opinion upsets democrats, but that was how i saw the debate.


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Subject: RE: Trump INDICTED x4 NO new Trump threads part III
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jun 24 - 03:46 AM

Trumps mic was turned off when Biden was speaking.
This particular Presidential debate had 2 commercial breaks during a 90 minute period., which apparently is very unusual.
Biden was struggling with his words despite having two breaks.


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Subject: RE: Trump INDICTED x4 NO new Trump threads part III
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Jun 24 - 01:51 PM

I watched the entire debate, but I am a partisan (Democrat). My number one concern was for my guy not to topple over. The politics these days have been full of projection, so I thoight it might be TRMP who'd be drugged up.
I thought Biden appeared a bit weak and hard to untangle early on. He recoveed for the body of the debate, and he was employing somewhat the tactics of the Reps by being aggressive rather than sharp. Which I thought was appropriate given the frame of the debate, his opponent, and the times we are sadly living in. TRMP was handy with lies for all occasions and some whoppers, such as his insistence that the overthrow of Roe V Wade was what everyone wanted.
Biden seemed to derive energy from TRMP in that he responded to most of TRMP's assertions whether or not he could outquote or out-facct him, which is a losing tactic in the environment.
I thought Biden's closing statement was the weakest part of his performance, so I thought it was not a bad thing that Trump got the last word.

I'm hearing a lot of media talk about panicked Democrats, which I hope will settle down. Biden was still standing at the end of the day which was my main requirement. Whether or not the average American understands this, he's a true tough guy, he's kept a relevant working administration together in the wake of some major bad actors at home and abroad.

TRMP was most approximated by Berlusconi, or that was my opinion in 2016. Unfortunately for us, Berlusconi achieved re-election. I'm hoping Americans are a bit better than that. I don't know if U.K. has their own equivalent. I thought Boris might be, but I think he had more neurons firing in synchrony in his skullbox than TRMP.


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Subject: RE: Trump INDICTED x4 NO new Trump threads part III
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Jun 24 - 08:58 AM

I watched part of it, and left it to an overview for the rest.

The format didn't allow time to get into a lot of detail, and Trump rolled out so many lies - where to begin?

If you look at the substance of what was said, Biden was a clear winner, head cold or not. Trump was a liar as usual.

Trump will want to roll out clips from when Joe's voice was low, Biden will roll out clips of Trump's lies (or of him calling Trump a liar and a felon).

Now put your heads down and get to work, because Trump is just as much a disaster for the US today as he was yesterday.


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Subject: RE: Trump INDICTED x4 NO new Trump threads part III
From: gillymor
Date: 28 Jun 24 - 08:23 AM

I didn't watch it either but from this morning's coverage it appears that Trump rolled out a litany of lies and falsehoods,as usual, that Biden didn't challenge. I feel gut-punched this morning. The president is not going to get any younger over the next 4 and a half years and voters are going to be aware of that. Perhaps the DNC can get him to step aside before the convention. Kamala Harris, a former prosecutor, could make life difficult for Trump, the greatest threat to our Democracy during my lifetime, and make the old fraud accountable on coming debate stages.


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Subject: RE: Trump INDICTED x4 NO new Trump threads part III
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 24 - 05:16 AM

I didn't see the debate either (I cannot even stand to look at or listen to him) but the BBC reports that Biden did not fare very well.


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Subject: RE: Trump INDICTED x4 NO new Trump threads part III
From: Helen
Date: 28 Jun 24 - 04:58 AM

I didn't watch much of the debate between Biden & Trump but the faces Trump was pulling throughout the debate reminded me very much of this animated character from the TV live action game show called Frogger.

Frogger - Boss Toad looks like Trump


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Subject: RE: Trump INDICTED x4 NO new Trump threads part III
From: gillymor
Date: 22 Jun 24 - 11:43 AM

It might be a good idea to strap Trump into his seat as well or even give him the full Hannibal Lechter rigging. Roll him onto the stage just like his hero.


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Subject: RE: Trump INDICTED x4 NO new Trump threads part III
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Jun 24 - 11:00 AM

The importance of the new Presidential debate mic cutoff

A five-minute video with the brief remark below it:
"Being able to turn off the mic is a really powerful tool," says John Donvan, Debate Moderator-In-Chief for the group Open To Debate. "Interruptions tend to be not in good faith....given the choice between losing atmospheric buzz and keeping the substance on track...I vote for keeping the substance on track."

John Donvan is a familiar voice to Americans who listen to public radio and television news.


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Subject: RE: Trump INDICTED x4 NO new Trump threads part III
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Jun 24 - 11:52 AM

He has openly offered billionaires huge tax benefits if they support his campaign now, and they are lining up to fill his coffers. A big chunk of that cash will go to pay his legal bills (Trump never pays for those things on his own - he stiffs someone else or he simply refuses to pay, telling them they'll get "great exposure" from taking his cases). No musician is ever going to want to perform for him.


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Subject: RE: Trump INDICTED x4 NO new Trump threads part III
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 24 - 08:22 AM

He seems to shooting himself in the foot more and more. Long may it continue!


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Subject: RE: Trump INDICTED x4 NO new Trump threads part III
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jun 24 - 10:11 AM

Wow! - Powerful stuff. Trump's team will spin it of course but, hopefully, the mud will stick.


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Subject: RE: Trump INDICTED x4 NO new Trump threads part III
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Jun 24 - 04:20 PM

The new Biden presidential ad takes the gloves off, now that Trump has been convicted.

The first debate is coming up next week. There will be no audience and the mics will be turned off for each candidate when it isn't their turn to keep Trump from speaking out the way he has done in the past.


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Subject: RE: Trump INDICTED x4 NO new Trump threads part III
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Jun 24 - 04:35 PM

Still waiting for TRMP to float Alex Jones as a potential V.P. candidate.


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Subject: RE: Trump INDICTED x4 NO new Trump threads part III
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 24 - 05:57 AM

You missed out the most important

Trump (noun) the noise made by breaking wind from the rear end

and

Trump (verb) the act of breaking wind from the rear end

Sums up the orange one to a tee.


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Subject: RE: Trump INDICTED x4 NO new Trump threads part III
From: Helen
Date: 15 Jun 24 - 03:26 AM

I've been toying with the idea that the word "trump" might aptly describe some of Donald Trump's actions, what he might consider to be his triumphs, e.g. trumping the democratic process, or climate change action, or women's right to decide their best health options in consultation with medical professionals, or the people's right to effective and scientific health care in a pandemic. The list goes on and on.

Looking at the definitions on this page, I think I could come up with some hard hitting policy-based slogans for President Biden's election campaign. :-D

To trump is to outrank or defeat someone or something, often in a highly public way. Safety might trump appearance when you're buying a car, or your desires may trump your brother's when it comes to making weekend plans.

"In the card game bridge, the trump card is the most powerful card in a particular round and defeats all the others — sort of like when your needs or wishes trump someone else's. Originally trump implied a deceptive form of victory involving cheating, but that sense has been largely lost, though it's still around in the term trumped up, meaning something that's been falsely made up. A politician may face trumped up charges that could ruin his career.

Some of the other definitions of trump on that page:

    verb - get the better of. Synonyms: best, outdo, outflank, scoop

    noun - a playing card in the suit that has been declared trumps
    “the ace of trumps is a sure winner” Synonyms: trump card


    noun - (card games) the suit that has been declared to rank above all other suits for the duration of the hand
    “clubs were declared trumps”
    “a trump can take a trick even when a card of a different suit is led”
   
    noun - a final factor or resource that determines an outcome Synonyms: trump card
   
    noun - a brass musical instrument with a brilliant tone; has a narrow tube and a flared bell and is played by means of valves

    synonyms: cornet, horn, trumpet [or in Trump's case, an accordion :-D ]


    verb - proclaim or announce with or as if with a fanfare Synonyms: trump out


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Subject: RE: Trump INDICTED x4 NO new Trump threads part III
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Jun 24 - 10:56 PM

It seems that Trump has threatened a lot of the movie distributors when it comes to a release of The Apprentice.
But nearly two weeks after its “bigly” premiere, the film still doesn’t have a U.S. distributor. Despite strong reviews, feverish media attention, a red-hot director in Ali Abbasi and a starry cast that includes Sebastian Stan and Jeremy Strong, “The Apprentice” remains up for grabs.

Sources close to the dealmaking say there are several potential buyers in the mix representing both theatrical distributors and streamers, and new offers continue to trickle in. But one of those sources revealed that none of the major studios are bidding, including their specialty labels like the Disney-owned Searchlight, Sony Pictures Classics or Focus, which is owned by Universal. Even some of the most daring indie distributors like Neon, which released Abbasi’s “Border,” aren’t offering a deal yet.

External reviews from the IMDb site.


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Subject: RE: Trump INDICTED x4 NO new Trump threads part III
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jun 24 - 03:23 AM

”He makes it up as he goes.”

He does indeed. Unfortunately, there’s a sizeable number of voters who believe him - exactly how many will be determined in November - and, personally, I find those people even more scary than Agent Orange himself.


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Subject: RE: Trump INDICTED x4 NO new Trump threads part III
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jun 24 - 02:59 AM

Seeing as he dismisses previous recordings as fake news, it would not make any difference.


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Subject: RE: Trump INDICTED x4 NO new Trump threads part III
From: Helen
Date: 12 Jun 24 - 06:49 PM

He sure does. He would probably fare a lot better without recordings of his previous contradictory rubbish being thrown back in his face.


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Subject: RE: Trump INDICTED x4 NO new Trump threads part III
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Jun 24 - 05:43 PM

He makes it up as he goes.


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Subject: RE: Trump INDICTED x4 NO new Trump threads part III
From: Helen
Date: 12 Jun 24 - 03:48 PM

Here it is:

Hunter Biden is now a convicted liar. Donald Trump won't let his father forget it

"Two guilty verdicts ripple through campaign

"Joe Biden's response presents a stark contrast to his likely opponent in the November presidential election, who continues to rail against what he says is a rigged justice system.

"Had Hunter Biden been acquitted, Donald Trump might have suggested it was proof that he, Trump, was being treated unfairly.

"A conviction is in some ways harder for Republicans to spin.

They after all are the party of greater gun rights.

"Some would argue that the right to bear arms is absolute.

"Their line was soon clear from a statement promptly released by the Trump campaign in response to the guilty verdict.

"'This trial has been nothing more than a distraction from the real crimes of the Biden Crime Family, which has raked in tens of millions of dollars from China, Russia and Ukraine.'"


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Subject: RE: Trump INDICTED x4 NO new Trump threads part III
From: Helen
Date: 12 Jun 24 - 03:36 PM

I saw briefly a mention of a Trump or maybe Trump supporter response to Hunter Biden's guilty verdict. (I'll find the actual quote if I can.) It puts them in an interesting double bind. If they go all high-&-mighty about Biden's son owning a gun then are they being hypocritical about all of those gun owners who did something massively illegal and invaded the Capitol?


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Subject: RE: Trump INDICTED x4 NO new Trump threads part III
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Jun 24 - 02:33 PM

This week Hunter Biden was found guilty of lying about drug use on a federal firearms purchase document. It seems the Trump folks are a bit flummoxed by the conviction - they were hoping for an innocent verdict to which they could point and blame Biden for interfering, etc., and by extension, interfering and trying Trump.

Like Trump, H. Biden has the option of an appeal. The GOP prosecutor in the case was a Trump appointee who interfered last year when a plea agreement had been reached (common with truly victimless crimes and first time offenses). The agreement was scrapped and Hunter Biden put on trial. Talking heads are convinced (in general) that this trial happened because Trump wanted it to and the special prosecutor is, like Judge Cannon in Florida, beholden to Trump.

In other news, Manhattan DA Alvin Bragg who put Donald Trump on trial has agreed to testify before the clowns in Congress, on the day after Trump is sentenced. There will be fireworks (if nothing, heads exploding on the GOP side of the room.)


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