'Tradition is tending the flame'

Subject: 'Tradition is tending the flame,
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 24 - 03:51 AM

"Tradition is tending the flame, not worshipping the ashes". Gustav Mahler

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame,
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 24 - 03:57 AM

.By performing song or dance, a performer puts their own interpretation upon the performance generally speaking without being aware of doing so.

They may be influenced by the past but they are not living in it, they are living in the present. performance is happening in the present tense.
Their performance reflects how they are feeling at that present time. any performer whatever they call themselves or whatever language they are using, will without realising put an interpretation on the performance .
when singers use an accent or form of expression which is patently not their own, but done as a copy of a source or revival singer whom they are seeking to imitate. are they "living in the past"?

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame,
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jan 24 - 07:03 AM

of course the thing to remember about Mahler:-
If you're starting a clssical music cd collection.. ...Gustav is a must have

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame,
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 24 - 07:10 AM

Or Holst any time.

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame,
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 24 - 11:45 AM

here is a quote from martin carthy guitar book page 4.
Carthy Clones he has felt that a book containing accurate guitar transcriptionsof his guitar playing would tend to ewncouragesome people to copy his guitar playingwithout using their own imagination, turning them into Carthy clones.
quote   MARTIN is committed to the verbal tradition by which folk music has always been passed down from generation to generation.
under the section accompaniments, he writes The guitar accompaniments to the songs are not included but the tunings used byMartin and some clues as to what he does are included., this is partly because of the carthy clone syndrome.

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame,
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jan 24 - 12:27 PM

Well as some of you may know - I'm not a trad folk singer - except when I'm sing trad folk songs.

However what's wrong with being a Carthy clone. We all sstart off copying someone.

Some people who started out copying Carthy have turned out very good - Brian Peters for example - the late Tony Rose for another. And if some people use notation or tab to learn - well whats wrong with that.

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame,
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Jan 24 - 01:13 PM

Dog whistle - "Carthy clone."

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame,
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 24 - 01:25 PM

Well you song types may start off by copying someone but I didn't copy anyone with my Irish harmonica because I didn't know at the time of anyone else doing it. I did learn some tunes from records, but not from harmonica players. I learned a lot from a Jackie Daly album, which I just about wore out (Music from Sliabh Luachra Vol. 6). I learned a lot of Planxty and Bothy Band tunes, but it wasn't exactly copying. Guitar, maybe, but learning tunes from notation or tabs is the wrong way to learn traditional tunes.

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame,
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 03 Jan 24 - 04:51 PM

Why necessarily be concerned about tradition at all?

I mean, I define tradition as something that gets repeated over time. Then there are other things that are not tradition that are what's not repeated over time. I can do both. I don't need to do a mental somersault wherein I don't want to do as in the past and yet I want to simultaneously call what I'm doing "tradition" for some unexplained reason.

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame,
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jan 24 - 04:56 PM

'learning tunes from notation or tabs is the wrong way to learn traditional tunes.'

well isn't that for the individual musician?
Stefan Grossman's How to Play blues Guitar was a monumental achievement that has influenced thousands of players who learned the elements of fingerpicking the guitar from it.
Grossmans Book of Alternative tunings was a revelaton to a generation of guitarists - trad or contemporary.

In fact the whole Kicking Mule venture was a triumph. Just looknat the work of Steve Hicks who courtesy of Kicking Mule got to study under the great Duck Baker.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLzPD1ZQca0

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame,
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 24 - 05:46 PM

"well isn't that for the individual musician?"

Maybe, but rookie musicians who try to learn Irish tunes from dots don't get it right. They are anxious to build their repertoire quickly and that is simply not how the great players of the past who we treasure so much did it. And, in my opinion, that fast-track method really shows. I know hundreds of tunes but I'm seventy-odd and have been doing it for ever. I CAN learn a tune effectively from dots, but I rarely do. Irish tunes are not dots. There's variation, there's lift, there's lilt and there's ornamentation and other intangibles, integral to the music and not bolt-ons, and highly personal. None of those are in notation or tablature, yet they ARE the tune. It all gets into your head when you've done a ton of listening. Nothing else works properly.

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame,
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 24 - 06:01 PM

I agree with Steve.

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame,
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jan 24 - 07:46 PM

the learning thing is ongoing. hopefully you never stop learning. you have to try and kick it forward any way you can - is my experience.

If you know a better way, perhaps you should share it with us.
Its a bit late for me, but you never know there maybe some young player out there who could benefit from your advice as to what to do next.

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame,
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 24 - 08:02 PM

Well it's a different world from the one that the legends of seventy or a hundred years ago inhabited. We have recordings by the ton, we have streaming of everything for next to no cost at the drop of a hat, we have YouTube, we have social media. It's all good but none of all that was a resource for those legends. They learned at the kitchen table, by playing at dances and by going to sessions. I think that was a good way to learn, but there's no way we can languish in the past and wish it would all come back. Loads of young people are enthusiastic about traditional music and it's up to us oldies to encourage and show our enthusiasm. I'm not miserable about it!

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame,
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 24 - 12:39 PM

A good way to learn a tune is to sing it first or whistle it , then there are some good videos where people play slowly, then when you have the tune try playing it differently for an hour putting your own twiddles ornamentation in. experiment in your own way.
ways of learning have changed so much, tab was ok i suppose, but it is limited, IT ONLY GIVES YOU THE BASICS
i used it years ago to learn mississipi john hurt songs, but then when i listened over and over to the guitarist blues singer john hurt, i learned much more. and eventually ONES own style should emerge,
I never copied anyone consciously, when i learned concertina song accompaniments, but my experience of trying to play john hurt syncopated guitar accompaniments, i transferred that idea of playing melody on and off the beat to the concertina., then i developed single line harmony accompaniment and chordal styles, all through experimentation.
So John Hurt ideas influenced my concertina accompaniments, but without the continuous four four bass, but there is no way i sound like him or anyone else, i do not sound like Lou Killen or Steve Turner OR Alf Edwards

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame,
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 24 - 01:01 PM

music notation can have its uses too.
The Fiddler Paddy Cronin used to go though O NEILLS 1001 , bringing forgotten tunes that were gathering dust,back in to the repertoire, but when he had the tune he would experiment with playing it different ways trying different ornaments etc.
developing, ones aural playing is imo important for trad tunes, a great fun thing is to lilt the tunes, then play it on an instrument
the verbal and aural tradition by which folk music has always been passed down from generation to generation., is imo a good way of learning, aural skills can be developed using the internet now which was not the case 100 years ago

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame,
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jan 24 - 01:05 PM

Although I can follow a score (a basic skill learned from choral singing in my teens and early twenties), I don’t play the guitar or mandolin from music - I learned to play those instruments by playing with others, watching how others do it, listening to recorded music, working it out, getting the ‘feel’, and practice, practice, practice.

I recall a number of occasions when I’ve been told, by people who play by reading the dots, that I’m not a ‘proper’ musician. Funny thing is, though, that I can walk into a session or jam and play along perfectly well ‘by ear’, whilst some of those ‘proper’ musicians are buggered without a chart to play from, completely unable to just work it out and fit in.

I sometimes wonder who the ‘proper’ musicians really are?

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame,
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 24 - 01:41 PM

You are a proper musician.
It is a question of two different types of skills.
PLaying by ear and listening is really important.

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame,
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 04 Jan 24 - 03:05 PM

I can't remember if it was Breandán Breathnach or Francis O'Neill who described noted music like this.
These are the bones, it's up to you to put meat on them.

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame,
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Jan 24 - 03:48 PM

Of course its nice if you grow up in community and family with everyone giving support and tuition, but a lot of people -particularly nowadays, live in isolation.
I think its what sociologists used to call an 'anomic' society. Perhaps you can find something more to empathise with, with the work of a singer who lived and practised a hundred years ago than you can h with any of the people living in your village or tower block.

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame,
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 24 - 03:57 PM

If you have a computer and you wish to learn traditional tunes by ear there are lots of slow tuition videos, that help you do that

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame'
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jan 24 - 02:13 AM

If you know a better way, perhaps you should share it with us, QUOTA Al

A good way of improving Aural skills, is to take very familiar tunes, such as nursery rhymes, when the saints frere jacues etc, and stumble though them in different keys,
as for trad tunes, tunes like the butterfly which have repeated phrases are good.
as regards listening for chord changes, I found 12 bar blues a gooD starting point, recognising the sounds of sub dominant and dominant and tonic, the sounds of minor chords, or just sitting with a singer and experimenting with chords

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 24 - 05:16 AM

The trouble with saying that notated tunes are bare bones is that all the other aspects of playing a traditional tune, the ornamentation, the variations, the lift and the lilt ARE part of those "bare bones" and are not just add-ons. Good instincts require that they are all integrated into the "learning" process. To quote, or misquote, Alan Ng, that's how you get to "play it right." It's decades since I consulted a "tune book."

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jan 24 - 05:52 AM

It's a funny thing - I tend to do a bit of each. When learning a new tune on the piano accordion I like to look at the dots and chord sequences but when playing mouth organ, whistle or concertina I tend to go purely by ear. Dunno why!

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame'
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 05 Jan 24 - 07:16 AM

The notation of a tune is like a pencil drawing of the music,it gives you a good place to start to learn a tune.After learning to play the tune from the dots you start to colour the music adding light and shade
to bring it to life. A good analogy would be reading a story in a monotone,all the words would be there but the rendition would be dreadful,the skill is in the use of emphasis and tone of the voice,a good reader can give a truly memorable performance.
I once heard a classically trained violin player comment on a Irish traditional player,his technique is not technicaly advanced, what makes his music so good is he is playing with his heart.

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame'
From: r.padgett
Date: 05 Jan 24 - 12:51 PM

Singing traditional songs ~ I learnt from the traditional source singers by and large ~ this way certain nuances have been learnt ~ yes I sing in my own voice and phrasing

I play concertina by ear (yes I know) and learnt from playing largely with others ~ basic understanding of your instrument is needed of course
Initially I learnt to play the songs I sang and learnt the key which is/was most appropriate

Ray

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 24 - 07:48 PM

Well I've learned all my tunes by ear. It's been a long life and it's taken a long time, but, to me, there really is no other way.

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame'
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 24 - 04:47 AM

Consulting a tune book is something that Paddy Cronin did pccasionally to bring forgotten tunes back to the repertoire,

Developing and working on playing by ear is something that the more you do the better you get at it, and its SO useful for trad sessions, its great to lean to pick up tunes that you have never heard before by ear in a session.
IMO both ways have different uses but the most useful is developing learning by ear, I try to get pupils to develop their aural skills.

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame'
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 24 - 05:05 AM

tA good starting point is trying to learn tunes that have less notes eg slides, polkas jigs that are song tunes, rather than reels, The Butterfly is a good tune to teach as a starter and winster gallop, the girl i left behind me, or catchy singable tunes, the frost is all over lanigans ball, the primrose lass [a version of seven drunken nights]

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame'
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 24 - 05:50 AM

Jimmy Allen’s is a good case in point here, great for starters on melodeons/concertinas, like Winster Gallop, as it’s got all the notes in the scale; but listen to Nic Jones’s solo guitar version and there’s plenty going in terms of ornaments, counterpoints, cross rhythms and bass runs.

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jan 24 - 07:13 AM

Have you ever been to Winster in Derbyshire. Its a great little village - like a university town in miniature - all these grey stone buildings. The gallop is a great favourite in English folk clubs - just two chords on the guitar. If you your playing one and it sounds wrong. Play the other.

To visit Winster turn left going from Matlock to Rowsley village.

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jan 24 - 07:17 AM

Also in Winster theres a great Youth Hostel. I did a gig there many years ago when my brother in law took a load of students on a field trip looking at gardens in the area.

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame'
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jan 24 - 05:03 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=361jDsRnDoY winster gallop

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame'
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jan 24 - 11:02 AM

here is a Suggestion try playing major chord arpeggios up and down in different combinations, first to fifth, first to third, third to fifth, then do it with minor chords, these[ using tonic solfa] have the me note flattened.
then start off from the doh note and play different intervals upwards. if you can relate the dfferent tunes, let us say my bonnie lies over, it starts ist to 6th. b ba ba black sheep two first notes to a fifth up the scale, incidentally that is the intervals of the open strings of a fiddle, hope that helps

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Jan 24 - 05:06 PM

I really don't understand.

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Jan 24 - 04:52 AM

Gustav Mahler's Paraphrase of Thomas More

In German a popular quotation of "Thomas Morus", or Thomas More, goes something like this - in this instance, as paraphrased by Gustav Mahler to the point that it is occasionally attributed to him:

"Tradition ist die Weitergabe des Feuers und nicht die Anbetung der Asche."

Namely "tradition is the handing down of the flame and not the worshipping of ashes".

It's a pretty apt Mahler quotation considering that he also said:

"Was ihr Theaterleute Tradition nennt, das ist Bequemlichkeit und Schlamperei"

"What you theatre people call tradition is just cosiness and laziness"

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Jan 24 - 10:30 AM

Excellent quotes, John!

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame'
From: Paul Burke
Date: 30 Jan 24 - 11:32 AM

No YHA hostel in Winster now.

But what is the flame burning? Georgina Boyes' excellent "The Imagined Village" explores what different generations of folk revivalists have taken as "authenticity" in folk music- from the (German, 19th century) concept as "the folk" as the underpinning of a national culture; through the (typically English) idea that "the folk" were ignorant peasants who didn't know what treasures they'd accidentally retained and needed to be relieved of them ASAP; the manly men and forcedly feminine schoolteachers surrounding the tinkly piano in the 20s; the subversive Communists and earnest Socialists searching for the "Real Folk" in mills and mines, and perhaps slightly helping them along when they didn't quite come up with the right idea; the youths of post WW2 discovering that folk included a lot of rudery to balance the prudery of Reithian BBC Britain... and what about today?

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 Jan 24 - 02:51 PM

It burns sociability and nostalgia, and yes, sometimes egos.

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame'
From: leeneia
Date: 01 Feb 24 - 12:21 PM

"Traditional" can be a useful term. For example, if I'm traveling and I ask where in town I hear traditional music. It saves time.

But why is a love song from 1880 traditional while an operatic aria from 1880 is high art?

Why is "The Old Rugged Cross" traditional at a blue-grass session but a hymn at a church service? To the church members, the hymn is part of an continuous body of music that's old but still part of their present-day culture.

It's more fun to play the music more and debate its nature less.

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Feb 24 - 02:38 PM

horses for courses. some people just love arguing.

it all gets to the point where it seems to most of us a bit daft. however if you've lived through this period - its sort of understandable. there's been a lot of intolerance and abuse in this conversation, and its terribly sad. theres not many of us who haven't been slagged off, for some minute point of doctrine.

Subject: RE: 'Tradition is tending the flame'
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Feb 24 - 04:47 PM

I think playing music well is about listening and listening to other players, be it blues ragtime or trad , tablature tells you where the notes are not how the player interprets,
the same applies to trad tunes,
with classical music there are instructions on the music sheet about interpretation and you get your cue from the conductor.
I played in a concertina band which meant we played classical arrangements and brass band music, it is a different discipline from playing blues folk or trad tunes and in my opinion requires a different approach, there are no instructions in the notation other than time signatures and keys etc