Subject: Another preserve trad folk songs (melodies) thread From: Stilly River Sage Date: 18 Feb 24 - 12:07 PM If there is one thing that the Mudcat Cafe is not short if, it is threads about what is and how to save traditional music. Today on the Facebook page (where we try to keep it to announcements of upcoming music events and links to online performances and photos) a question was asked about preserving the melodies of folk songs. The discussion can move over here. For your reference, the discussions that happen here at Mudcat are linked (they'll appear at the top of the page soon) and make it easier to find all of the nuances and examples in one place. It started: FAO: Folkie Musos. There a chin-scratching emoji in the bottom line. This is the full dump of the conversation before remarks were closed, line markers and all: Sandra Robinson |
Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies) From: Tattie Bogle Date: 18 Feb 24 - 02:17 PM Aha! I saw that post on Facebook, but something told me it would get moved here! So I didn't answer at the time. Of course, music changes and moves on, but for me (again personal taste) it's whether those changes are an improvement or of benefit to the song. I can think of a couple of songs where someone has decided to write a completely new tune to a well-known song - maybe they didn't know the original, or maybe they just thought theirs was better - not necessarily so. Without resorting to aspic, in this case, if it ain't broke, don't fix it! Then there are others where the accompaniment is so funky that it breaks up the flow of the lyrics, and the song loses its meaning. I'm not against accompaniment per se, but it should be sympathetic and not intrude or overwhelm the song. Many of our younger singers now have gone back to original texts and recordings, and have produced lovely versions of these songs without changing them much at all, and yet, they still sound fresh. |
Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies) From: Lighter Date: 18 Feb 24 - 04:12 PM Performers should do as they like. Scholars will do as they like. Seems simple enough. |
Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies) From: Mo the caller Date: 18 Feb 24 - 04:28 PM Tatie Bogle said 'I can think of a couple of songs where someone has decided to write a completely new tune to a well-known song - maybe they didn't know the original, or maybe they just thought theirs was better - not necessarily so.' I am a dancer and choir member. The dancing masters of the past published dances with tunes, so now people think that dance and tune belong together. Not so. Another publisher might put the same instructions to a different tune, or a different set of instructions to the same tune. The dance usually went by the name of the tune it was set to. Then in choir we sing so many different composers tunes for the same (usually religious) text. So you could say that is the traditional way of doing things. |
Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies) From: GUEST,Little Robyn Date: 18 Feb 24 - 11:18 PM What Tattie Bogle said! Sometimes I hear a 'new' version of a song I know well and love - and it makes wonder why, what is the reason they have changed things? Is it because they were too lazy to learn the words properly or are they keen to show off a new tune they have just written? Are they hoping to claim copyright and earn a bit extra (thinking of a certain Mr Zimmerman here) or did they hear it wrong in the first place. My Mum also used to say "If it ain't broke....." Robyn |
Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies) From: r.padgett Date: 19 Feb 24 - 02:53 AM I think that by and large the songs and tunes which were bound together to start with have been recorded and kept for reference ~ by collectors and enthusiasts Over the years collectors have recorded singers that have learnt versions that have undergone the folk aural and oral tradition and because of the recording systems have a "record" of these too Creating totally new tunes ~ well it is possible ~ time will tell as to whether this is a good thing or not! imv words should always be clearly enunciated and the story clearly told Ray |
Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies) From: GUEST,Peter Cripps Date: 19 Feb 24 - 10:04 AM IMHO traditional songs and melodies can usually survive the horrendous treatment sometimes accorded to them! For me, the test is: 1. Song/tune performed by artist, or 2. Artist performing song/tune. If 2 I usually switch off! |
Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies) From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 20 Feb 24 - 12:01 PM Re singing the same words to different tunes .... Many hymn tunes got attached to specific hymns, and vice versa, because that's how they were paired in Hymns Ancient and Modern; this was the standard hymnal in the Church of England* up till the 1960s or later. But back in the 18th Century, I recently heard, only one carol was permitted at Christmas, and that was While Shepards Watched Their Flocks By Night. "So," said the presenter, "what did they do? They used different tunes." He then played a recording of a choir singing it to Cranbrook (nowadays irredeemably associated with Ilkley Moor). Try it --- once you get the repeats right, they go together surprisingly well, and the tune brings out the joy in the words. My €0.02: For the sake of the historical record, the scholar in me says it helps to record which tune(s) that went with one particular set of words. My inner performer says: Go with what works best for *you*. * In all the parishes I knew, anyway. |
Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies) From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler Date: 20 Feb 24 - 12:10 PM We sing "While shepherds" to at least 9 different tunes at the George at Upper Denby, and usually at each session. Robin |
Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies) From: Tattie Bogle Date: 20 Feb 24 - 12:46 PM Ah, the carol-singing tradition - that's another whole can o' worms! Love it - have only experienced it as "Carols in August" at Whitby and Sidmouth festivals, run by Ian Russell, but can imagine what it would be like in the pubs of Derbyshire and Yorkshire (and anywhere else) near Christmas. And hymn melodies too: I can think of several tunes for a couple of hymns at least - All Things Bright and Beautiful, Love Divine, all loves excelling, and they each have their devotees. And having just come through this year's Burns season, there are a good number of Burns songs that do NOT use the original tune, some of the latter being too big a range for the average singer: and then conversely, the same tune being used for 3 or 4 different songs. Singing and dancing: I have also played in a couple of ceilidh bands, and some of the tunes we use are in fact song tunes: nice to see some of the fitter dancers managing to song and dance at the same time! |
Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies) From: Dave the Gnome Date: 20 Feb 24 - 06:02 PM On another thread, Dick Miles quoted "Tradition is tending the flame, not worshipping the ashes". Gustav Mahler I think that is an excellent way of looking at it. |
Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies) From: ksiegel Date: 20 Feb 24 - 07:38 PM So many songs with the same tunes, many of which - while allegedly penned by "traditional" or "anonymous"... Tom Paxton's story of his daughter listening to that "old french folk song" Bouteille du Vin" is just one example. I hear a lot of fiddle & whistle/pipe players playing their traditional songs And this year, I just yeard "Cherokee Shuffle" for the first time... And swore I was listening to Stan Rogers' "Watching the Apples Grow". Who knows - maybe I was? |
Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies) From: Mo the caller Date: 21 Feb 24 - 02:19 PM "Tom Paxton's story of his daughter listening to that "old french folk song" Bouteille du Vin" is just one example." So what would we know that as? I understood that Hymns and Broadside Ballads were first published as words, so sung to whatever tune you happened to know. I suspect that typesetting words was a lot easier than printing music |
Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies) From: GUEST Date: 21 Feb 24 - 03:49 PM In his autobiography Keith Richards says he reckons recorded music was THE big thing of the last 100 or so years. Whether one agrees with him is a different question, but we are lucky in that, thanks to the recordings made from the Victorian era pioneers onwards, a huge canon of traditional melodies exists in recorded form as well as in notation. To be clear here, I assume the discussion concerns the melodies themselves, not arrangements, instrumentation or lyrics. Ultimately it doesn’t matter what individuals choose to do with them then since the source material remains. I think it was Norma Waterson who said when she wanted to do a song she’d listen to as many different versions as she could find so that she could do it differently, which I think’s great policy. I’ve played in tune sessions where other players have been able to tell where someone’s from by their use of accidentals, phrasings etc. At the other end of the spectrum I’ve witnessed sessions where the tunes have been note for note, phrase for phrase, copied slavishly from records. Joe Public didn’t know, or mind. The only important thing is to keep playing them, anyone who gets hooked will sooner or later ask the question Chris Coe always used to: “Where did you get that one from ?” And then, “Where did they get it from ?” |
Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies) From: Tattie Bogle Date: 23 Feb 24 - 06:29 PM Tom Paxton - Bottle of Wine. Our French friends do sing it as “Jolie Bouteille”. But the story I heard from Tom’s mouth was that his daughter was at St Andrew’s University when someone introduced “Last Thing on my Mind” as being an Irish traditional song. She says, “No it’s not”. Singer says, “Yes it is”. She says, “My Dad wrote that”. Singer says, “Well, he might have”. |
Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies) From: GUEST,Guest Date: 23 Feb 24 - 06:55 PM |
Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies) From: GUEST Date: 23 Feb 24 - 07:30 PM This may seem like sacrilege to some of the traditionalists out there however, now and then, I sing a couple of very well known traditional songs to the tunes of a couple of other well known traditional songs. When tune patterns/metres match up, you can create a pleasant element of surprise as the listener is familiar with both lyrics and melody, but not paired up together. FWIW, I’ve not had any complaints … yet. |
Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies) From: GUEST,PHJim Date: 24 Feb 24 - 08:20 AM For a while it became popular to sing "Amazing Grace" to the tune of "House Of The Rising Sun". I've also heard it sung to the tune of the "Giilaghan's Island Theme". |
Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies) From: Mo the caller Date: 24 Feb 24 - 09:28 AM The Lord's my Shepherd to Happy Wanderer. Chorus Praise the Lord x4 O Alleluia Praise the Lord Alleluia Praise the Lord |
Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies) From: Tattie Bogle Date: 24 Feb 24 - 09:33 AM Thread drifting a bit, but just for fun, during lockdown, and also in memory of Tim Brooke-Taylor on the radio programme "I'm sorry I haven't a clue", a friend (known here as Scabby Doug) challenged his Facebook friends to "sing one song to the tune of another". Quite a few people had one or two goes at it, but one particular friend, Pauline Vallance, produced a whole concert's worth of these - all very good, and drawing on tunes from folk, classical, jazz and other genres. All very entertaining stuff! Back on topic, and responding to Guest: yes, a lot of songs share the same poetic meter/no of syllables per line, so tunes can easily be interchanged. Yet another friend wrote a new song and was looking for a tune for it - she was thinking of using the "Tramps and Hawkers" tune, but I gently suggested she might like to find another, as that tune is already used for a number of songs other than T & H. |
Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies) From: Dave the Gnome Date: 25 Feb 24 - 08:12 AM Was it Fred Wedlock that did "The White Cockup"? Multiple songs to the tune of a similar name :-) It works for lots but I like a Pinball Wizard verse |
Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies) From: Dave the Gnome Date: 25 Feb 24 - 08:23 AM Oh, and I have been known to sing Chantilly Lace to the tune of The Parting Glass :-D |
Share Thread: |
Subject: | Help |
From: | |
Preview Automatic Linebreaks Make a link ("blue clicky") |