English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)

Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Mar 24 - 12:28 AM

Disagreeing with the sentiments of a song does not necesarrily mean it is a poorly written song .
I disagree with the songs sentiments, but i would not say it was a poorly written song, or that it was dreadful.
Stilly River Sage, please CLARIFY why the song is dreadful, where is is poorly written.
Here ismy opinion where the song detioriorates
"With the might to prove they’ve the right to choose
who’ll live and who will die.
When Hitler changed the word from ‘kill’ to ‘exterminate’ the Jews,
The word was changed but it meant the same,
ANOTHER’S RIGHT TO CHOOSE."

and here to make a comparison with the death of Martin Luther King, is like comparing artichokes with grapefruit.
"If you’d the right to choose would you end Luther King once again?
If you’d the right to choose would you push Steve Biko again?
If you’d the right to choose would you terminate Jesus again?
Like King Herod of old are we looking for Jesus again?

Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Mar 24 - 01:00 AM

it is poorly written because it is hyperbole

Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Mar 24 - 02:11 AM

I don't agree with the position expressed in the "Little Innocents" song, but I look on it as an effective expression of a valid point of view that I disagree with. I have seen all sorts of negative comments here through the years about Vin Garbutt. I'm glad to see his songs finally posted here so I can see for myself. I disagree with what he's saying, but he's not as objectionable as the American pro-life folks. And I'm glad that much of Vin Garbutt's work wasn't focused on this one issue.

Stilly, we old men vote. You need us on your side. Don't tell us we shouldn't discuss this issue.

Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Mar 24 - 04:23 AM

I, as stated earlier, disagree with the sentiment but cannot agree that it is poorly written. The language used is suitably emotive for the personal feelings Vin is trying to express.

Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Mar 24 - 04:51 AM

it depends what your reason is for writing the song,
if you want to convince somebody to your point of view,being aggressive, using emotive language, comparing someone to Hitler is not the way to do it.
The song has not changed your view has it Dave?,so has it failed as a song?

Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Mar 24 - 05:06 AM

Vin's reasons for writing the song are well documented, including this line from the sleeve notes

"My intention is not to offend but to inform those unaware of what is, to my mind, the grossest excess of our materialistic ‘throw-away' society"

The song, like most arguments on here, will never change anyones mind. It is not meant to be a logical argument but it is a strong statement of opinion (note "to my mind") and in that it works very well. So, no, it has not failed as a song

Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Mar 24 - 05:49 AM

well, we have to agree to disagree,imo it has nothing to do with consumerism or a throw away materialistic society,
i

Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Mar 24 - 06:28 AM

Sorry, Dick, but those were Vin's owm words and I think he knows what it was about better than anyone else!

Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Mar 24 - 09:26 AM

I didn't say don't discuss it, I merely pointed out WHO is discussing it. I didn't say it's badly written, I said it's dreadful.

Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 26 Mar 24 - 02:47 PM

Four function calculator and a calendar... beats prose, scripture, song lyrics & social media 'likes'... and anything else you got... no contest.

There is no 'pro-choice' or elective in the third tri. Pat Garbutt was in her fifth month. Vin Garbutt's complaint was is an in-policy "last chance for choice" the doctor was (and still is) required to give. One month hence, Vin & Pat's little bundle of 'something' became a legal "person" with the "civil rights" in his song's sub-title... no social media likes, politics or 'God' required.

In my world, nobody can be relied upon to recognize 'God' if 'He' slapped them on all four cheeks. The Lord of Lords gets a wristband and everybody with an assigned task gets a scanner.

Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Howard Jones
Date: 29 Mar 24 - 10:07 AM

It should perhaps be pointed out that in the UK abortion is far less of a political issue than in the US. A recent opinion poll showed that 87% of the public agreed that abortion should be permitted, and 77% think that protests in the immediate vicinity of clinics should be banned. When the matter has been discussed in Parliament it has always been a 'free vote', where MPs vote according to their own views rather than as their party instructs them.

This is not only a woman's issue, it is something which affects society as a whole. However men should be conscious that the stakes for them and for women are of course very different.

The UK poll found that attitudes among men and women here are identical on the main question of whether abortion should be permitted.

Folk song is often used to express a political or social message. Often these are more or less aligned with the views of the audience and the performer is taking little risk in singing them. Most of Vin's many social commentary songs were uncontroversial to a typically mainly left-ish folk audience, but this was something he felt strongly about and he had the courage to express a point of view which he knew would probably be unpopular with many of his audience. I doubt he expected to change minds, just to ask people to think about it from a different perspective.

Although his views on abortion affected his career and alienated him from parts of the folk media and some of the public, he remained a very popular and much-loved performer and his unexpected death came as a great shock to many. He is still widely missed. I remember him most fondly for his lengthy and hilarious introductions.

Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 24 - 12:46 PM

Spot on and well said, Howard.

Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Mar 24 - 01:56 PM

Absolutely right on the button, Howard - well said!

Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 29 Mar 24 - 04:42 PM

Couldn't agree more Howard!

Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: GUEST,one of the 87%/77%
Date: 29 Mar 24 - 05:12 PM

Well said Howard.

It wasn't until I heard Little Innocents that I realised why my female folkie friends were so enraged by such an enjoyable performer.

And just to show others are following the discussion.

Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: GUEST,EM
Date: 29 Mar 24 - 05:49 PM

I believe even the much-adored Leonard Cohen got a lot of kick back for his lines that sound abortion-critical in "Diamonds in the Mine" and "The Future".

Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 30 Mar 24 - 05:55 AM

Howard Jones; It should perhaps be pointed out that in the UK abortion is far less of a political issue than in the US.

Abortion is still very much a political issue in Northern Ireland, where the Unionist parties strongly oppose any liberal changes to abortion legislation. Amnesty International reports;

Nearly every single person Amnesty International spoke to for this report mentioned anti-abortion activists as a significant issue and barrier to accessing abortion services. Various forms of intimidation and threatening behaviour are displayed towards people seeking abortion, those providing abortion, and those supporting abortion rights in Northern Ireland. Methods of intimidation and threatening behaviour include verbal intimidation and physically threatening behaviour, trolling, and threats by text messages. Intimidation by anti-abortion activists outside clinics and hospitals has long been part of anti-abortion activities in Northern Ireland. This harmful behaviour takes a significant toll on people seeking abortion services and on healthcare providers, as well as other patients and staff entering those buildings.

In 2022, the Northern Ireland Assembly passed The Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) Act to create safe access zones around premises where abortions are provided. The Act aimed to implement the UK’s legal obligation, stemming from the CEDAW inquiry report, to prevent harassment outside abortion clinics. It is the first piece of legislation passed of its kind in the UK. The bill became law on 6 February 2023 and the zones became enforceable on 7 May 2023. As of August 2023, the zones have not been implemented and people entering healthcare facilities continue to be harassed, although the Department of Health has stated zones will be in place by the end of September 2023.

However, the balance of power is changing. Last month, assembly members gathered at Stormont after a two year absence.

2022 Northern Ireland Assembly election; Sinn Féin became the largest party, marking the first time an Irish nationalist/republican party won the most seats in an assembly election in Northern Ireland, and has the right to nominate Northern Ireland's first nationalist First Minister. The unionists won two more seats than nationalists - 37 seats to 35 - and a marginally higher share of the vote. Alliance made large gains, as the only party to gain seats at the election, overtaking the UUP and the SDLP to become the third-largest party in the Assembly. wikipedia

The Guardian Friday 29 March; Sir Jeffrey Donaldson has resigned as leader of the Democratic Unionist party after being charged with sexual offences, throwing Northern Irish politics into turmoil. Donaldson had served three years as DUP leader and recently bolstered his authority by agreeing a deal with Downing Street that revived the Stormont executive and assembly.

In 2018, the Republic of Ireland voted to remove the constitutional ban on abortion by a two-thirds majority.

Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Mar 24 - 06:23 AM

NenryP: A fair point. To me, and probably to most of the rest of the UK, the peculiarities and grudges of Northern Ireland politics are a mystery. You are quite right that the issue is not settled there. However Vin was from Teesside, in mainland Britain, and the controversy around his pro-life songs was mainly from mainland audiences and media. I have no idea how he was received in Northern Ireland.

Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 30 Mar 24 - 07:43 AM

Northern Ireland politics are particularly complicated and unpredictable! The Westminster Government has imposed legislation upon Northern Ireland for the provision of abortion services.

BBC News timeline; https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-56041849
June 2020; The NI Assembly backs a non-binding motion brought by the DUP rejecting the changes to NI's abortion laws.
February 2021; DUP MLA Paul Givan proposes a new law to prevent abortions being carried out in Northern Ireland in cases of non-fatal disabilities.
March 2021; The Westminster government signals its intention to give NI Secretary Brandon Lewis new powers to compel Stormont to implement abortion laws.
February 2022; A High Court judge held that Mr Lewis was compelled to take the step after a United Nations body found in 2018 the UK had breached the rights of women in Northern Ireland by limiting access to abortions.
May 2022; Stormont's Department of Health is told that it must start setting up a fully-funded abortion service for Northern Ireland "within days to weeks" by Northern Ireland Secretary Brandon Lewis. Mr Lewis was acting under new powers to remove the need for the executive to approve plans first. The UK government had indicated it would itself act on abortion services after the Stormont assembly election, if an executive was not restored by then. Mr Lewis said he had a "legal and moral duty" to intervene due to the lack of progress.

The DUP blocked the restoration of Stormont's power-sharing institutions in 2022 in protest against post-Brexit trade checks between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. Assembly meetings only resumed in February 2024.

The Guardian now paints a completely different picture! https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/21/how-northern-ireland-came-to-lead-the-uk-on-abortion
Siege days are over: how Northern Ireland came to lead the UK on abortion. The chilling atmosphere of pickets and protests at clinics has given way to a new ‘gold standard’ of care.
Rory Carroll Ireland correspondent Thu 21 Mar 2024

Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Mar 24 - 12:51 PM

Yep, I saw it meself, chaps. ;-)

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Steve is extremely slow to take a hint. When you abuse not one but TWO moderators in the same thread, your presence is no longer welcome. Stop poking the bear, and consider yourself lucky every single post on Mudcat isn't deleted. This thread is temporarily closed. ---mudelf