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BS: American Presidential race 2024

Stilly River Sage 29 Jun 24 - 08:15 PM
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Subject: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Jun 24 - 08:15 PM

We aren't starting any more Trump threads and we keep it to one UK politics thread at a time now, because it keeps the fighting to a minimum and in a controlled environment. Nasty BS threads are the reason we lost a lot of members over the years, and setting BS threads to members only helped contain that problem.

Clearly the hand-wringing over Biden and Trump as candidates and the recent debate is going to spill over into other threads unless it is contained in ONE PLACE. The urge to bring the presidential debate into the Trump conviction thread has resulted in a lot of deletions already.

Nasty stuff will be deleted. This is a moderated thread. Some of you get out of control, and you know who you are. Keep it civil, and helpful, if possible. There is a lot the world can learn about American politics from how the next four months and one week progress.

A couple of large newspapers have taken it upon themselves to call to Biden to step down, but the debate was not an example of Biden's failing as a president, it is simply an example of how the "Gish Gallop" technique of peppering your debate opponent with so many lies that deciding which to respond to looks like hesitation or inability to answer.

Read the more thoughtful examinations of the debate - reasonable Democrats have moved on and are still firmly behind Biden. Trump would be a disaster for the world and there is no changing candidates at this time. All of the various UK member negative views expressed over the months have been an annoyance to those of us working to get Biden reelected.

This discussion would benefit from links to thoughtful analysis in non-US news sites and forums. There will be links to American sites that offer rational examinations of the race.

Let's start here: many of us are old enough to know about the Pentagon Papers and the outsized role that Bob Woodward has played in analyzing and reporting on American presidential politics. I'll start this thread with a link to an interview with Woodward. As he wisely states, let's look for an answer.

Bob Woodward brands Biden debate performance a ‘political h-bomb’
Watergate reporter and long-time Washington Post associate editor Bob Woodward said President Biden’s debate performance was a “political hydrogen bomb” and the public deserves to know what really happened.

Woodward joined MSNBC’s Air Melber on Friday following the debate, where he said the performance was “so bad, so awful” that reporters must be looking for some explanation from his staff.

“I think the answer here is in reporting, in seeking very aggressively, an explanation — what happened here?” Woodward said. “We don’t want it to come out in some book or some memoir in a couple of years or a decade. We’d need to know now.”

Woodward speculated that during preparations ahead of the debate — a likely strategy for the Biden campaign, given it proposed the debate in the first place — that the president got into a “knock down, drag out fight” with his staff.

Either way, the public should know, Woodward argued.

The President appeared on stage with a hoarse voice and a slight cough. He stumbled with answers and at times didn’t finish his sentence. Sources familiar with Biden said he had a cold.

Biden’s debate performance sparked widespread fear among Democrats about his ability to beat former President Trump in the polls this fall. Some even are calling for him to step aside and let someone else attempt to defeat Trump.

Woodward said the calls for Biden to suspend are “inevitable” because of how bad his performance was.

“I sat there and watched it and I could not believe it. I said, not only is this a political hydrogen bomb for him and the Democratic Party, it, you know — what happened? What happened?” he said.

Calls for the president to drop out are not hasty, Woodward said, but more energy should go toward seeking an explanation behind the debate performance.

“Look, let’s step back. If a building blows up in downtown of some city, the story will be what happened and then the story will be how did this happen, why did this happen? And that’s where I’m very, very curious because this was a mega disaster,” Woodward said.

The answer was provided by the historian (and goddess in liberal political circles) Heather Cox Richardson, who posted the night of the debate about what happened DURING the debate.
Tonight was the first debate between President Joe Biden and presumptive Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump, and by far the most striking thing about the debate was the overwhelming focus among pundits immediately afterward about Biden’s appearance and soft, hoarse voice as he rattled off statistics and events. Virtually unmentioned was the fact that Trump lied and rambled incoherently, ignored questions to say whatever he wanted; refused to acknowledge the events of January 6, 2021; and refused to commit to accepting the result of the 2024 presidential election, finally saying he would accept it only if it met his standards for fairness.

Immediately after the debate, there were calls for Biden to drop out of the race, but aside from the fact that the only time a presidential candidate has ever done that—in 1968—it threw the race into utter confusion and the president’s party lost, Biden needed to demonstrate that his mental capacity is strong in order to push back on the Republicans’ insistence that he is incapable of being president. That, he did, thoroughly. Biden began with a weak start but hit his stride as the evening wore on. Indeed, he covered his bases too thoroughly, listing the many accomplishments of his administration in such a hurry that he was sometimes hard to understand.

In contrast, Trump came out strong but faded and became less coherent over time. His entire performance was either lies or rambling non-sequiturs. He lied so incessantly throughout the evening that it took CNN fact-checker Daniel Dale almost three minutes, speaking quickly, to get through the list.

Trump said that some Democratic states allow people to execute babies after they’re born and that every legal scholar wanted Roe v. Wade overturned—both fantastical lies. He said that the deficit is at its highest level ever and that the U.S. trade deficit is at its highest ever: both of those things happened during his administration. He lied that there were no terrorist attacks during his presidency; there were many. He said that Biden wants to quadruple people’s taxes—this is “pure fiction,” according to Dale—and lied that his tax cuts paid for themselves; they have, in fact, added trillions of dollars to the national debt.

Dale went on: Trump lied that the U.S. has provided more aid to Ukraine than Europe has when it’s the other way around, and he was off by close to $100 billion when he named the amount the U.S. has provided to Ukraine. He was off by millions when he talked about how many migrants have crossed the border under Biden, and falsely claimed that some of Biden’s policies—like funding historically Black colleges and universities (HBCUs) and reducing the price of insulin to $35 a month—were his own accomplishments.

There is no point in going on, because virtually everything he said was a lie. As Jake Lahut of the Daily Beast recorded, he also was all over the map. “On January 6,” Trump said, “we had a great border.” To explain how he would combat opioid addiction, he veered off into talking points about immigration and said his administration “bought the best dog.” He boasted about acing a cognitive test and that he had just recently won two golf club tournaments without mentioning that they were at his own golf courses. “To do that, you have to be quite smart and you have to be able to hit the ball a long way,” he said. “I can do it.”

As Lahut recorded, Trump said this: “Clean water and air. We had it. We had the H2O best numbers ever, and we were using all forms of energy during my 4 years. Best environmental numbers ever, they gave me the statistic [sic.] before I walked on stage actually.”

Trump also directly accused Biden of his own failings and claimed Biden’s own strengths, saying, for example, that Biden, who has enacted the most sweeping legislation of any president since at least Lyndon Johnson, couldn’t get anything done while he, who accomplished only tax cuts, was more effective. He responded to the calling out of his own criminal convictions by saying that Biden “could be a convicted felon,” and falsely stating: “This man is a criminal.” And, repeatedly, Trump called America a “failing nation” and described it as a hellscape.

It went on and on, and that was the point. This was not a debate. It was Trump using a technique that actually has a formal name, the Gish gallop, although I suspect he comes by it naturally. It’s a rhetorical technique in which someone throws out a fast string of lies, non-sequiturs, and specious arguments, so many that it is impossible to fact-check or rebut them in the amount of time it took to say them. Trying to figure out how to respond makes the opponent look confused, because they don’t know where to start grappling with the flood that has just hit them.

It is a form of gaslighting, and it is especially effective on someone with a stutter, as Biden has. It is similar to what Trump did to Biden during a debate in 2020. In that case, though, the lack of muting on the mics left Biden simply saying: “Will you shut up, man?” a comment that resonated with the audience. Giving Biden the enforced space to answer by killing the mic of the person not speaking tonight actually made the technique more effective.

There are ways to combat the Gish gallop—by calling it out for what it is, among other ways—but Biden retreated to trying to give the three pieces of evidence that established his own credentials on the point at hand. His command of those points was notable, but the difference between how he sounded at the debate and how he sounded on stage at a rally in Raleigh, North Carolina, just an hour afterward suggested that the technique worked on him.

That’s not ideal, but as Monique Pressley put it, “The proof of Biden’s ability to run the country is the fact that he is running it. Successfully. Not a debate performance against a pathological lying sociopath.”

A much bigger deal is what it says that the television media and pundits so completely bought into Trump’s performance. They appear to have accepted Trump’s framing of the event—that he is dominant—so fully that the fact Trump unleashed a flood of lies and non-sequiturs simply didn’t register. And, since the format established that the CNN journalists running the debate did not challenge anything either candidate said, and Dale’s fact-checking spot came long after the debate ended, the takeaway of the event was a focus on Biden’s age rather than on Trump’s inability to tell the truth or form a coherent thought.

At the end of the evening, pundits were calling not for Trump—a man liable for sexual assault and business fraud, convicted of 34 felonies, under three other indictments, who lied pathologically—to step down, but for Biden to step down…because he looked and sounded old. At 81, Biden is indeed old, but that does not distinguish him much from Trump, who is 78 and whose inability to answer a question should raise concerns about his mental acuity.

About the effect of tonight’s events, former Republican operative Stuart Stevens warned: “Don’t day trade politics. It’s a sucker’s game. A guy from Queens out on bail bragged about overturning Roe v. Wade, said in public he didn’t have sex with a porn star, defended tax cuts for billionaires, defended Jan. 6th. and called America the worst country in the world. That guy isn’t going to win this race.”

Trump will clearly have pleased his base tonight, but Stevens is right to urge people to take a longer view. It’s not clear whether Trump or Biden picked up or lost votes; different polls gave the win to each, and it’s far too early to know how that will shake out over time.

Of far more lasting importance than this one night is the clear evidence that stage performance has trumped substance in political coverage in our era. Nine years after Trump launched his first campaign, the media continues to let him call the shots.

Notes:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/all-the-crazy-things-trump-said-you-might-have-missed-in-biden-debate

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/04/trump-biden-presidential-debate-prep-408651

https://archive.is/JNu8D

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/27/us/politics/trump-revenge-biden-convicted-felon.html

X:
stuartpstevens/status/1806528635391631485

ddale8/status/1806517477163061469

MoniquePressley/status/1806527221881847898


Discuss.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 29 Jun 24 - 10:11 PM

from Australia -

Key takeaways from the US presidential debate between Joe Biden and Donald Trump By North America correspondent Barbara Miller and Basel Hindeleh, Posted Fri 28 Jun 2024 at 2:54pm, updated Fri 28 Jun 2024 at 3:40pm

Joe Biden and Donald Trump get personal in 'game-changing' debate ahead of 2024 election — as it happened Posted Fri 28 Jun 2024 at 9:21am, updated Fri 28 Jun 2024 at 4:01pm
US President Joe Biden and former president Donald Trump have concluded their debate in Atlanta, Georgia — and pundits were united in their view that it was a bad night for the president. Take a look back at how the debate unfolded — and how America reacted.

Beyond Biden and Trump, American politicians are amongst the oldest in the world. Is that good for democracy?

Presidential Debate: “The Worst in the History of the United States” Dr Adam Bartley is a Fulbright Scholar and resident fellow at the Elliot School for International Affairs, the George Washington University. In addition to this, he is a post-doctoral fellow at the Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology and program manager of the AI Trilateral Experts Group. He is also managing editor for AIIA’s Australian Outlook. Twitter: @AaBartley
Jade Kingston is the Australian Outlook Book Reviews Coordinator. She is a fourth-year student of International Security Studies at the Australian National University in Canberra, minoring in Bahasa Indonesia.
This article is published under a Creative Commons License and may be republished with attribution.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 29 Jun 24 - 10:45 PM

I thought I posted this article from ABC (in Oz). It's a good analytical piece by Jade Macmillan.

Could Joe Biden be replaced? Why the president is refusing to give in to his critics

Also I have watched most of the PBS Washington Week With The Atlantic discussion this morning (on SBS TV in Oz) and I'm about to watch the rest of it. The panelists have some good analysis of the debate and its possible consequences.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 29 Jun 24 - 11:31 PM

And thanks Stilly for setting up a new thread specifically about the American Presidential race 2024 and for stating the ground rules for debate so clearly. I have said this to the Mudelfs on previous occasions but I'm saying it again here: I trust your judgement and I will respect your decisions.

The statement about the "Gish Gallop" technique makes a lot of sense to me.

"A couple of large newspapers have taken it upon themselves to call to Biden to step down, but the debate was not an example of Biden's failing as a president, it is simply an example of how the 'Gish Gallop' technique of peppering your debate opponent with so many lies that deciding which to respond to looks like hesitation or inability to answer."

So many lies told by Trump, so many possible responses by Biden but where to start in the short time allocated for each response. It would be like trying to hold back a tsunami.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Thompson
Date: 30 Jun 24 - 05:00 AM

The effect on hesitating voters is what's important, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jun 24 - 05:17 AM

World reaction to the debate


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: gillymor
Date: 30 Jun 24 - 07:03 AM

The priority should be defeating Trump, for the good of our nation and the world, and if the best way to make that happen is replacing President Biden on the ticket so be it. His poor performance the other night just reinforces the portrait that Trump's been painting of him as a weak old man and none of the excuses being bandied about for him are going to dispel that image in the minds of some voters who may have thought otherwise before that debate. I like and respect the president and have since he was my senator some 40 years ago, though I thought he wasn't quite liberal enough , and have contributed to his last 2 campaigns but I have real concerns about his ability to win this thing and have sent a snail-mail urging him to do what's best for the country and to comply with whatever the Democratic Party hierarchy decides. There's just too much at stake.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jun 24 - 08:30 AM

I have to agree with Gilly, the top priority must be to defeat Trump and elect a Democrat President. There’s too much at stake for the US and for the whole world, and the DP top-brass need to recognise that and do what’s necessary to bring it about.

I’m an admirer of Pres. Biden, but I’m no longer convinced he continues to have what’s essential to ensure another term. I’m sad about that, but this is the Real World we inhabit and cruel truths have to be faced. What the US does affects not only American citizens, but everyone else in the world and, although I’m not particularly religious, I’m praying the DP in particular, and American voters in general, make the right decisions.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Jun 24 - 10:29 AM

One wonky debate under gaslighting circumstances and all of you are ready to throw in the towel. Such sunny-day Democrats! Some newspapers are lobbying for a new candidate - this is too important an issue to have those mouthpieces taking that stand, perhaps testing their own influence despite a possible bad outcome.

Any other time listen to Biden, he's just fine. Always better than Trump, and he's the candidate. Get over it and move on. Time to make sure Trump is a loser - again.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jun 24 - 02:25 PM

How many people remember Obama's first debate against Mitt Romney? It didn't go very well but he was not 80 years old at the time.

I am appalled (though I should know better) at the reaction to the debate, but it is the immediate reaction to the debate that is a symptom of the television / internet age that accelerates responsiveness to barely more than knee-jerk status.

The New York Times Editorial Board is nothing more than a bunch of kiddies afraid of the teeter-totter.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 30 Jun 24 - 03:25 PM

My first thoughts after the debate were that it might be time for Joe Biden to rethink his tilt at a second term, but after his rally performance in Raleigh, North Carolina I can see that he still has what it takes to get the job done.

The look on Biden's face as he watched Trump in the debate, what I saw, well, I think the best word for it was disgust. I think it was Jeffrey Goldberg on PBS Washington Week With The Atlantic who said that one of the factors which may have affected Biden's performance was having to stand in the same room as Trump and interact with him. That would put any right-minded person off their game, in my opinion. Like standing next to a crocodile which could attack at any moment.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Jun 24 - 07:18 PM

Dick, your posts were deleted from the Trump CONVICTION thread as irrelevant to that topic. This thread was started as a place for that energy to go, since clearly people were responding to the change of topic. DO NOT SEND ME PMs TO DEFEND YOUR BEHAVIOR OR COMPLAIN ABOUT MODERATION.

Given a weekend, I hope people calm down and get back on track. Biden is the only candidate at this point, and is one the to beat Trump. (If he did step down, Hillary would have to take his place.)


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 30 Jun 24 - 07:43 PM

Unfortunately, I think the stakes are too high to put a female candidate into the running because I think there are a lot of voters who would never vote for a woman for President.

I'm sticking to my opinion that Biden can win.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 30 Jun 24 - 08:13 PM

I have said this before in one of the Trump discussions, but I think a lot of the political issues in the US would be less troublesome without relying on the presidential system.

Sorry! I try not to disrespect other democracies, but in Australia (and other countries with a democratic system which evolved from the UK system) voters in each electoral area vote for the person s/he feels could best represent their interests and their electorate in parliament. Then whichever political party gains the majority of representatives takes power and the previously chosen leader of that party becomes the Prime Minister, i.e. that leader is chosen by the party prior to the election.

Unfortunately, especially in the Trump and post-Trump era, I can see that the consequences of voting for one person as President can be far-reaching and in Trump's case, extremely scary.

There used to be a big move in Australia to try to convince people to change our political system to a republic and break away from the monarchy. I used to think it might be a good idea, but I now think that there needs to be prior discussion on how to avoid the potential for the cult-of-personality ambushing of the presidential elections.

I think the chances of the US changing the current political system are at about the same level of introducing tight gun control. Nil, nada, zip.

That's all just my opinion so please ignore it if you want.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Charmion
Date: 30 Jun 24 - 09:06 PM

Helen, as a Canadian I agree with you one hundred percent. Sir Winston Churchill once cracked that the Westminster system of parliamentary democracy is the worst system in the world — “except for all the others.” I think he had a point.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 30 Jun 24 - 09:14 PM

Thanks Charmion. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Jul 24 - 11:04 AM

The Supreme Court just gave Trump a helluva lot of wiggle room - there will still be lower court hearings, but less likely that cases can go forward before the election.

I haven't heard the pundits talk about the Florida documents case or the Georgia interference and false electors case. If they can shake their cases free of this decision can they move forward? The Florida one won't because that judge is his faithful lapdog. Georgia? Willis is still struggling to keep the whole thing viable (the GOP part of her state is fighting against that case.)

I await interpretation by clear and knowledgeable heads.

Now for July 11 - that had nothing to do with official acts, and we hope the judge will give jail time.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Jul 24 - 10:42 PM

We the people - this 23 minutes is important. Vital.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Jul 24 - 09:32 AM

When Biden wins next time let's hope his coattails bring in a robust Democratic House and Senate. Suspend the filibuster on day one. They will then have two years in which to pass the Voting Rights Act, to remedy the Citizens United decision (allowing corporate money into politics because they are "people" with first amendment rights as it stands now). Alito needs to retire and the House needs to impeach Clarence Thomas and pack the court with 2 or 3 reasonable jurists.

Roe v Wade needs to be restored, absolute rights to receive contraception codified. The ability of federal agencies to regulate industry needs to be restored. The cap on Social Security sits at $400,000 of an individual's income - remove the cap and SS will be in much better condition. Apply the "wealth tax" that Warren has proposed for years.

They may have the house and senate for his entire four years, but things can change with the House (in particular) every two years. Backlash in particular. But the big money needs to come out of politics asap.

Fixing the mess the Supreme Court made about presidential powers - that might take a Constitutional amendment. Or another case in which the more reasonable supreme court voids this week's nonsense.


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: gillymor
Date: 02 Jul 24 - 01:17 PM

I hope the Biden camp seizes on this SCOTUS ruling as being a pathway for the dictatorship that Trump has longed for. Make it a major issue.


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 24 - 05:47 PM

This is becoming the disaster that everyone but those looking through rose coloured glasses have been predicting all along. I understand that this is upsetting to those who are working hard to prevent it but stopping us from saying it will do nothing to help.


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Helen
Date: 02 Jul 24 - 06:40 PM

So tell us what your crystal ball predicts, Dave.


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Jul 24 - 09:19 PM

You can stop pushing it in people's faces. That would be really nice. We're working on it. Your complaining isn't helping anyone.


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Helen
Date: 02 Jul 24 - 09:36 PM

I agree. I was a Union rep in most of my different jobs and the unions and the members usually followed the unofficial motto, "If You Don't Fight You Lose". Sitting back and admitting defeat without taking proactive action is not going to win the fight, and doom-mongering is not helpful for motivating the people who are trying to be proactive.


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 02:41 AM

My crystal ball says he is going to win but I sincerely hope that it is wrong.

I am not pushing it in anyone's face or complaining and I am doing as much as I can about it as I can. If it is wrong to voice my fears in the hope that someone will listen then so be it. Sitting in a sycophantic echo chamber does not help much either.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Rain Dog
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 02:47 AM

I did not watch the debate. I have not watched any of the debates here for our forthcoming UK election.

I am not a fan of them at all.

In the real world all politicians will have information in front of them, they will not be relying solely on their memory. They will also be surrounded by advisers.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 03:01 AM

This article is by John Barron who co-hosts the (Oz) ABC show Planet America, and the less formal Planet America Fireside Chat. The show always conveys excellent analysis and balanced views. (By balanced, I mean common sense. They are not big fans of DT.) The whole article is worth reading, in my opinion.

Should the Democrats replace Joe Biden as presidential candidate? History says it's a risky move

The article presents an argument that to replace Joe Biden at this stage could lead to a Democrat loss and he uses some pertinent examples from the past.

"Did history scare off challengers to Biden's nomination?

"In 2020 Biden seemed to imply he would only serve a single four-year term, referring to himself as a "bridge" and a "transitional" president. His decision last year to seek a second term came in the afterglow of a solid 2022 midterm election result where Democrats were boosted by the conservative Supreme Court's overturning of the constitutional right to have an abortion.

"Biden remained convinced that like 2020, he is the best-placed Democrat to defeat Donald Trump.

"But there's another reason no high-profile Democrat challenged Biden. They all knew taking on an incumbent president for their party's nomination is almost certainly doomed to failure, and a failure that can also doom the president they challenge."


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: gillymor
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 04:41 AM

"I am not pushing it in anyone's face or complaining", that seems to be exactly what you're doing, Dave. Not very helpful.


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Helen
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 04:49 AM

Dave, what are you doing about it exactly? "and I am doing as much as I can about it as I can".

And yes, the sycophantic echo chamber which Donald Trump has built around himself is a major part of the problem.


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 07:09 AM

I am pointing out at every opportunity what a disaster it will be if he is elected and bringing a bit of reality to this discussion by pointing out that the rest of the world fears that is a distinct possibility. What are you doing, Helen?

Gillymor. How will not pointing out the above views on an obscure minority interest forum help anyone?


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: gillymor
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 07:19 AM

Dave, I'd rather live my life as a happy warrior than as Chicken Little. I'm all too aware that the absolute worst may happen in November but I don't see the value in agonizing over it.


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 07:53 AM

The sky falling on our heads is not very likely, gilly. Although it may feel like it if the worst does happen :-( This thread has over 700 posts. There is probably no value in most of those either. Other than to get things off people's chests. I am purposely keeping off the election thread at SRS's request but to make sure only certain views are aired smacks of, well, Trumpism!


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: gillymor
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 08:04 AM

I don't see the value in discouraging reasonable people, Dave, some of whom, like myself, may be doing volunteer work for the Democratic Party.
Still, I can't say I disagree with the sentiment expressed in the last sentence of your post at 7:53.


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 08:33 AM

I do apologise if I am discouraging anyone. I would see it more as spurring them on. There are enought carrots so I am providing a bit of stick :-D


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: gillymor
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 08:42 AM

Dave, Trump is a big enough dick, uhh, I mean stick.


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Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 09:24 AM

Like my Grandad used to tell me - Always say you don't know! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 11:19 AM

Dave, no one asked you to stay off of the election thread. This is where the real messy part belongs, though the Supreme Court has been making things a lot worse lately. The two topics still merit distinct threads (there are developments to discuss on the other one.)

Supporting Biden doesn't mean we're not aware of all of the moving parts of a campaign for the moral high ground of the US. I have always assumed that Biden has something in the playbook to promote Harris to the presidency. We'll just have to see if that happens sooner than later.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 04:56 PM

Dave, how many times have you posted the same or similar comment in the Trump discussions? How many times do you think you need to say the same or similar comment, especially when you do not add any further analysis or information or updates? You've said it already, ad nauseum. Enough is enough in my opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 05:47 PM

I'm just reminded of a couple of pertinent English observations. One on England which kinda applies to the whole Democratic unierse:


Spike Milligan quoted from the Goon Show:
"Cheer up dear listeners, Old England isn't finished yet!

lt's finished. . .
. . .
. . .

NOW!"

And Oscar Wilde's observation that America was the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 06:26 PM

I dunno, Helen. You tell me!

How many times have you said that you agree with Stilly?


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 07:37 PM

Only when I have agreed with her and when I thought it would add to the conversation, and usually in response to a thoughtful, useful comment.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 01:30 AM

i think Biden might be replaced, in my opinion that is the best way to defeat Trump


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 02:41 AM

The Biden administration's most important climate action to date was signing the Inflation Reduction Act into law in August 2022, the most comprehensive climate legislation the U.S. has even seen. The law invests hundreds of billions of dollars in clean energy, electric vehicles, environmental justice and more.29 Jan 2024"


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 02:54 AM

As a candidate Trump said he would rescind Obama's Climate Action Plan, cancel U.S. participation in the Paris Climate Agreement, and stop all U.S. payments towards United Nations global warming programs. Many of his first cabinet picks were people with a history of opposition to the agency they were named to head.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 10:15 AM

I can't believe we are at this point in history.
The very knowledge that nearly half the US population supports this Trump creature makes me feel ill. The most profane, dishonest, self-serving, morally bankrupt person to ever hold high office in this country. In the opening post to this thread an historian is quoted about the Gish Gallop, a technique where you pile lie on top of lies until the fact checkers can't keep up. Something similar happens with actions as well. Trump did so many bad things that people tended to forget one thing as we moved onto the next. From sucking up to dictators while kicking democratic leaders in the teeth all the way up to his horrible mishandling of Covid, it was one thing after another after another. Here's an example: Our staunchest allies in mid-eastern conflict have been the Kurds, most recently as proxy fighters in Syria. That is until Trump stabbed them in the back. After one phone call with Turkish president Erdogan Trump not only pulled out US personnel who were providing cover for the Kurds, he also provided intelligence. including satellite images of Kurdish positions. Turkish attacks began soon after. I consider this to be the most heinous betrayal of an ally in our history, an act that brought dishonor on not only our military but the citizenry as well. There was no strategic reason for selling out the Kurds, just Trump crawling into bed with an autocratic leader.
And no one even remembers the incident because the media barely covered it, but mostly because of so much subsequent heinousness.
As bad as that first term was, a second one would be exponentially worse. Just look at his statements and those of his followers. Dictator on Day 1 and firing 50,000 civil servants and replacing them with inexperienced , untrained Trump loyalists. Our government will be in chaos. Hopefully, the EU will be able to keep Ukraine afloat because Trump wil abandon them on instruction of his Putin overlord and ,seeing this, China may be encouraged in its designs on Taiwan.
In an address to the Politburo after the death of Stalin, Kruschev used the term Cult of Personality to describe his iron grasped control of the USSR. Thats what we are seeing with the Republican party in its      total abrogation of integrity, morality and common sense in some twisted loyalty to the Trump beast.
And speaking of integrity, isn't the fact that Trump appointed Supremes can vote to give him immunity from crime the very essence of corruption? I expect to see a substantial slide from our current 26th position the next time the Corruption index is published. And if you think "26th place ain't so bad", then our expectations of our leadership has already denigrated.
I don't care if Biden descends completely into senility, he would still be preferrable to Trump. Hell. a piece of cheap furniture would make a better president than that criminal Donald Trump.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 10:50 AM

"I can't believe we are at this point in history.
The very knowledge that nearly half the US population supports this Trump creature makes me feel ill."

Are they voting for Trump or the Republican party?


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 10:52 AM

NeilD,

Those are polls, that are notoriously inaccurate. I can't believe that 50% of this country supports that buffoon.

More importantly, Trump has injured many people who now will have a great cause to vote to be sure that he doesn't get into office, or his state lapdogs either. The women's vote is hugely important, and two more states are set to have abortion rights on their ballots in November.

It is a wait and watch time now, to see how Biden's interview with ABC's George Stephanopoulos, who was Clinton's Press Secretary and will provide the best gauge of how things are progressing for Biden. He knows the political environment and will have the good questions that test our candidate.

If it was a choice of running out the end of the term and not running again or stepping down, I would want him to step down and put Harris in a place of power now. And get a really good VP; my first choice would be Katie Porter but she and Harris are both from California and the Pres and VP aren't allowed to be from the same state. So look to the Jan. 6 committee for someone smart and up to speed, and might as well bring in disaffected former GOP folks. Try Adam Kinzinger. Liz Cheney is still too conservative for my taste to give her second banana position, but if they chose her, I'd still work for them. The key isn't to take any current House or Senate members who are in seats that need to be held.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 11:06 AM

I heard on the BBC radio that there might be a problem with the election campaign funding if Biden was dropped.

What would happen to Biden’s campaign cash if he drops out? That’s up to Kamala Harris


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 11:21 AM

Not if it stays with Harris. If they chose another candidate, it would be the "changing horses in the middle of the stream" for one thing (without primaries to make the choice, I predict chaos).

Personally, Biden hits most all of the important buttons and he has smart people working for him; as long as there isn't something actually wrong mentally, I'm fine with him staying in office and working on what needs doing, age isn't important.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 02:24 PM

NeilD & Stilly, you make a lot of good points.

The prospect of Trump being re-elected is dire. Personally, I think that Biden is your best chance of defeating him.

Unfortunately, even though I think Harris would make a great President, I also think that the probability of a lot of the white male voters and a significant chunk of white female voters would think twice about voting for a woman, especially as she is a woman "of colour". It was hard enough getting our first female Prime Minister in Australia, and then she was subjected to gender bias, even by other elected politicians. She achieved a lot, but could have had a more pleasant and more productive experience than she did.

Strategically, I think the best plan is to keep Biden as the candidate, hopefully he gets elected and then if his health or capability declines during the Presidential term he can step down and Harris will take up the role.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 02:25 PM

Sadly, Stilly, the facts are rarely taken into account. If it is the public's perception that something is wrong then that will stick. Our last Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, was torn apart with stories that he was an antisemitic terrorist supporter. The facts did not bear that out but the mud stuck. If Biden is to ride this out he needs to be stronger than Corbyn and ensure that the rumours of his frailty are stamped out. To do that he must hit hard and regularly. In my opinion of course


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 02:31 PM

Also, with reference to Oz's first and only female PM, Julia Gillard, our democratic system meant that we weren't voting for her specifically as PM. We vote for the local candidate we want and then the political party with the most successful candidates gains the majority in Parliament and the previously nominated leader of that party becomes the PM in the federal elections or the Premier in state elections. We have had a few female state Premiers.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 02:49 PM

We have had 3 female PMs. Sadly they were all disastrous. I fully support the principle of gender equality but only as long as the encumbant is a capable leader. I really don't know enough about Harris to know if she is. Can you enlighten us, Stilly?


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 07:35 PM

I was watching a music video show and the videos were chosen by an Irish-Australian comedian, Jimeoin. One of the videos was Asshole by Denis Leary, which I haven't seen for many, many years and always thought it was very funny.

Now I listen to the lyrics and think it is all about Trump. :-D


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 02:41 AM

I agree that Dems need to stick with Biden at this point. We're too far along in the process to shift gears to a different candidate. Barring a Biden abdication any attempt to move to a new candidate will split the party. A divided Democratic party is about the only path to a Trump victory. We need Unity at least til after the election, then we can go back to bickering. As Will Rogers once stated, "I don't belong to an organized political party...I'm a Democrat."


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 05:09 AM

I agree NeilD. The article I linked to on 03 Jul 24 - 03:01 AM presents the argument that changing the candidate at this late stage would jeopardise the chances of a Democrat victory and increase the chances of Trump getting elected.

I think the prime strategic goal has to be keeping Trump out of the White House. Too much depends on that to take unnecessary risks at this stage.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 08:15 AM

Yesterday the people of the UK voted for moderation in politics. Let us hope that the craze will catch on across the pond. Things went that way in 1964 with The Beatles so, 60 years later, another British export is long overdue :-D


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 09:31 AM

"Yesterday the people of the UK voted for moderation in politics."

Seriously?

We have ended up with a party that is too far right for your tastes because a lot of people have voted for a far from moderate party.

A question for the American voters. Do people vote for the candidate or the party in presidential elections?


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 10:47 AM

In the US we vote for candidates, but in the US we have the winner-takes-all-votes Electoral College that gives an entire state to the winner in each state, it doesn't let the popular vote stand for the winner. (If there was no electoral college Hillary Clinton would be in her second term right now.)

This was put in place, erroneously, as it turns out, by those founding fathers, back in a day when only white male landowners voted and the small states were afraid of having no power, so every state got two senators, regardless of their population. That has worked against us since forever.

There are 14 states so far (don't quote me, but I think that's the number Robert Reich, former Labor Secretary under Clinton and political activist cites) that have broken with that and the votes are apportioned to the candidates during the electoral college convention (that whole mess on January 6, 2021 was the House accepting the results of the electoral college, where Trump tried to insert his fake electors.)

Some of you who read the Declutter thread may know that last spring I went in for two sleep studies, but they were inconclusive. My days were under-powered, to summarize. No energy, little interest in the usual things. It turns out that my late night work on the computer or reading on screens was the culprit. My own bad habits were washing my eyes and brain with blue light that makes getting to sleep more difficult and having productive sleep almost impossible. I've started turning off the computer a couple of hours before bed - what a change! And at Biden's meeting with Democratic governors this week he told them that he was changing his work habits, not working late into the evening and getting more sleep. I'm willing to bet he had the same problem I was having. It can lead to memory lapses, low energy, and general problems during the day. It is reversible by getting away from the screen and getting better sleep. It is certainly what I have found. It's like flipping a switch, once you back away from the screen, I felt better right away when I started this practice. So too will Biden.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 10:56 AM

Thanks for the response.

But my question remains. Would a Democrat voter vote for a Republican candidate and vice versa?

The impression (and it is an impression) is that party lines in the USA are even more extreme than here in the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 11:07 AM

In the primaries you choose which party and choose your favorite candidate, and if there is a runoff you can only vote in the same party, you can't switch over to boost someone on the other ticket. In the general election there are no such restrictions. A "straight ballot" was sometimes an option - at the top you could darken the box for all Democratic or all Republican candidates, but that was taken away in Texas because some of the down-ballot Republican candidates lost when that happened when Biden was elected. (We have a really awful GOP governor right now.)

I use information from the League of Women Voters (a long-established non-partisan voter rights group) that gives each candidate in all local, county, state, and national races a place to fill out their information and state their policies. https://www.vote411.org/. Once upon a time there were publications with all of this information, now you have to go online to find it.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 11:32 AM

I'll respond to your question in the UK politics thread RD.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 02:39 AM

A crossover to the UK politics thread

"In a social media post, Mr Trump wrote: "Congratulations to Nigel Farage on his big WIN of a Parliament Seat Amid Reform UK Election Success.

"Nigel is a man who truly loves his Country.""

Birds of a feather eh?

I suspect Putin will have done the same.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 02:39 AM

But my question remains. Would a Democrat voter vote for a Republican candidate and vice versa?

Well Rain Dog (cool screen name BTW) I can only speak for myself in that regard. When I was 15 I got the chance to tour Europe with the School Band of America as a last-minute replacement, but it hinged on being able to get a passport in a hurry. My parents contacted our congressman and 2 days later a government car pulled up in front of my house with my passport. Six years later when I voted for the first time he happened to be on the ballot and I felt like I owed him one. That's the only time in my life I ever voted for a Republican. It isn't personal, it's just that in order to be a Republican candidate you must support policy that I find detrimental to us as citizens. And that becomes increasingly true with every new bunch. The last decent president from that party was probably Eisenhower, but had I been around then I still would have been "Madly for Adlai".


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 11:41 AM

That's a good point. Our House and Senate members have offices in the state and are supposed to be there to support their state - all constituents - during their time in office. I have called our GOP Senators to register my opinion on how they should vote and gotten snotty answers from whoever answered - so I'm not bothering to call them any more. I have emailed and faxed messages.

The House members have fewer people to serve, but at a more granular level. I was able to contact my House member last year when a federal agency was taking its sweet time processing my share of a retirement pension - after filing the secure form they forwarded it to the agency - I literally had the money later that day. That said, this is what all representatives are supposed to be doing, cutting red tape and helping constituents. Though the staff was helpful I won't vote for this guy because he not only is GOP, he brought Marjorie Taylor Greene to town to campaign for him. She's the guttersnipe from Georgia who had her assignments stripped in her first term after she supported the January 6 events. Darned if her district didn't send her back to do more damage.

Trump has started to deny knowledge of the Project 2025, but it's out there in plain sight. A lot of talking heads are making much of it lately to call attention to a huge difference between Trump and Biden (and the corporations and oligarchs behind Trump).

(I will also share a bit of a puzzle here - the GOP participated in the removal of GOP Rep. George Santos. Why not some of the others who are charged with crimes? We must assume that Trump didn't like Santos, but there is more to be learned about that event.)


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 07 Jul 24 - 08:19 PM

Stilly, I have never heard of Project 2025 but it makes sense of what has been happening behind the scenes. Scary agenda!

I'm still waiting to hear that the Democrats have stopped being antsy and that they will put their full support behind President Biden and let him and everyone around him get on with the job and succeed.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 24 - 12:24 PM

Far right kicked out in the UK
Far right kicked out in France
Come on, USA. Give us the hat trick! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jul 24 - 01:01 PM

The far right in france unfortunately have not been kicked out
what follows possibly now, is a period of instabilIty in france.
There is unlikely to be a coaliton between any of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 24 - 02:29 PM

Yea, fair enough, not kicked out in France but certainly had their claws removed.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jul 24 - 02:35 PM

I'm still waiting to hear that the Democrats have stopped being antsy and that they will put their full support behind President Biden and let him and everyone around him get on with the job and succeed."
unlikely
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/jul/07/in-search-of-a-credible-replacement-for-joe-biden


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 08 Jul 24 - 05:16 PM

Joe Biden digs in for another day with a defiant letter, a surprise interview and frustration with 'the elites'

"US President Joe Biden is continuing to put up a determined fight for his political life.

"He's responded to ongoing pressure to step aside for a younger presidential candidate by writing to his colleagues in Congress and phoning into a TV show to insist he's not going anywhere."

....

"The letter

"Biden tweeted out a letter that he has sent to Democrats in Congress. It said he was "not blind" to the "good faith fears and worries" held by voters and members of his party. But, he wrote, he was "firmly committed to staying in this race".

    "'This morning, I sent a letter to my fellow Democrats on Capitol Hill. In it, I shared my thoughts about this moment in our campaign.'

    "'It’s time to come together, move forward as a unified party, and defeat Donald Trump.' pic.twitter.com/ABtAaJrr0n
    — Joe Biden (@JoeBiden) July 8, 2024

"He argued he had a "deep obligation" to the Democratic Party voters who had chosen him as their candidate.

    "'It was their decision to make. Not the press, not the pundits, not the big donors, not any selected group of individuals, no matter how well intentioned. The voters — and the voters alone — decide the nominee of the Democratic Party. How can we stand for democracy in our nation if we ignore it in our own party?'

"Biden said the 'question of how to move forward' had been 'well-aired for over a week', but it was time for it to end."

"'We have 42 days to the Democratic Convention and 119 days to the general election. Any weakening of resolve or lack of clarity about the task ahead only helps Trump and hurts us.'"


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 08 Jul 24 - 11:49 PM

Put Joe's perceived frailty and Trump's proven dishonesty aside. These aren't what is going to decide this election, the price of gasoline will. If it's under $3 a gallon on election day, Biden wins. Over $3, Trump wins. So Biden needs to release a significant amount from our oil reserve sometime around mid-October. Republicans will cry foul but the American people will only notice the price going down.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jul 24 - 01:02 AM

The price of gasoline might have an effect but i doubt if it will decide it on its own.,that will reduce inflation, but if he increases the old age pension at the same time or increases social welfare, that should do it.
the loss of tax on gasoline could partly be made up by taxing cigerettes,about 12 percent of USA population smoke.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 24 - 10:59 AM

Britain Prepares for Trump’s Return: Major Shifts in Security and Foreign Relations Expected


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Jul 24 - 11:14 AM

Until recently it was assumed that the Democratic National Convention would be a modest event, but now it looks like there might be some deal-making. Who knows - and what do you want to bet that the twitterverse voices lobbying against Joe are joined by a chorus of bots from Russia.

It would really be perfect if Donald was sentenced to prison time on July 11, as planned, but the fact that he'll be sentenced in September, much closer to the election, is not going to hurt the Democrats.

There is a bubbling of enthusiasm in the nation that isn't showing up on the polls. Polls are pretty much obsolete and should always be ignored -especially if they seem to show your candidate ahead. The only poll we want to see is the results on election day.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jul 24 - 02:07 PM

Dave, that link just takes you to a headline and very little else - just a couple of sentences ending with ‘here’s the full story’, then….tumbleweed.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 24 - 02:15 PM

It works as a sideshow BWM. If you swipe the pic it continues


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jul 24 - 02:28 PM

Aaaaaahh! Got it! Thanks Dave…


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Jul 24 - 03:36 PM

I'm sure the bots are out there botting. Unfortunately for them, predicting the outcomes of their guided biases is a tricky art. The safest thing for them to bot for is to render us fearful and uncertain. And there are so many ways to do that. Unfortunately, it is very often that those who sow, reap their own products. They foil themselves often, but that doesn't do the rest of us much good unless we have learned to live and work by principles and recognize others who do the same.

Those who are adept at marketing might be able to save us a little bit. We know that these techniques work, whether or not we are aware of them. So there should be a developing of guidelines, like firemen's lines leading us through the smoke.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Jul 24 - 10:07 PM

I have spent most of my life listed as Non-partisan, because in the old days I sometimes voted for a Republican. Eisenhower was one, and I have also voted Republican for local politicians on some occasions, such as Oregon's governor Mark Hatfield and for Senator Bob Packwood- before Packwood was disgraced.

In the 'old' days, the Republican party was a far cry from what it has become. There is no way I would- or will- vote Republican for the foreseeable future. IMO they deserve obliteration.

Stilly, back on June 30 at 7:18 pm, did you misspeak when you suggested that "Hillary" would be the nominee if Biden were to resign?


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Jul 24 - 10:17 PM

No, I didn't misspeak. But it wasn't intended to be taken seriously.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Jul 24 - 11:04 AM

Some of you may remember a senatorial race from six years ago, when Beto O'Rourke ran against Senator Ted Cruz. He came closer to unseating that bellicose senator than anyone has in a long time. O'Rourke was a popular two-term congressman from El Paso, and we were sorry to see him leave the House, but he has made a big mark on Texas politics. He still has an effective machine (a PAC called Powered By People) that is this year working to register as many voters as possible. The equally popular congressman Colin Allred, from Dallas, a former professional football player who clearly wore his protective headgear at all times is now running against Cruz. And while Beto works as hard as before to get voters registered, Allred, who was a hero of the House during the Jan. 6 breech of the Capital (he was some of the muscle ready to keep rioters out of the chamber, if need be, and of helping members escape) is running a very close race.

This is an example to illustrate about "down ballot races." Voting, even if you aren't in love with the top candidate, and voting a straight ticket (even if you have to fill in all of the Democratic spaces yourself - it has been mentioned before, possibly elsewhere, that in states like Texas that option was removed from ballots four years ago when Biden won and Democrats in down ballot races beat local GOP candidates who thought they were a shoo-in.)

If Allred can take that seat from Cruz, it helps Democrats keep the Senate. There are a lot of formulas out there about members who are weak in their states, and I don't think people outside Texas consider Cruz vulnerable. This would be a special gift from Texas if we can get rid of that nasty piece of work who has been in a position of power for far too long (and is one of the folks who did a turnabout of opposing Trump to being a solid vocal supporter, even after the insults Trump hurled at him.)


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Jul 24 - 11:37 AM

I have a question about voter registration in the USA.

Once you have registered at your home address how often do you have to confirm the details? Each year?

Here in the UK the government, via local councils, check each year to see if the details are correct for each address. If they are correct there is no need to do anything. We only have to reply if any of the details have changed.

Here in the UK, you can also contact the authorities yourself if you need to be added.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Jul 24 - 02:51 PM

There used to be lots of ways to register in Texas, for example when you renew your driver's license you could check a box to register yourself at the address of record. Mail in applications, walk in at county courthouse locations, and there are sometimes mailings from interested non-partisan groups that include the forms. I don't know if any of those are still allowed. The trouble these days is that the GOP is trying to remove registered voters by purging the rolls if people haven't voted recently or they suspect someone isn't eligible (for whatever cooked-up reason.) Then you have to be sure to get yourself added back in. So yes, checking to be sure you're still registered is important.

It varies from state to state, the more liberal locations make it as easy to register, and also to vote. Mail in, for the big one. During COVID lots of places had drive-through voting and in Texas the Secy of State fought that (because it was done in the Democratic region of Harris County, where Houston is situated).

I can check online to be sure that my mail in ballot was accepted (you put the ballot inside a larger envelope on which your voter ID and signature are there for confirmation that you are voting in your own name.) If it is rejected for some reason you can go to the polling place on election day and vote. But you have to know that it was rejected in order to do that.

Some places have same-day registration, so if you're new in town you register and vote at the same place. Not here. In Texas you have to have registered 30 days or more before the election.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jul 24 - 11:48 PM

where does the real power lie? The aramaments industry?The corporations?
does it matter that Biden has senior moments occasionnally


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jul 24 - 01:55 AM

my impression is that some voters feel unreprsented and see Trump as anti establishment[ which he is not]


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Rain Dog
Date: 11 Jul 24 - 02:31 AM

Thanks for the info, SRS.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jul 24 - 02:40 AM

here are some donors to Trumps campaign
TIMOTHY MELLON
Timothy Mellon, an 81-year-old heir of the Pittsburgh-based Mellon banking family, has given the pro-Trump super PAC known as MAGA Inc at least $16.5 million since 2022. He also gave at least $20 million to a pro-Trump super PAC called America First Action Inc during the 2020 presidential election.
ISAAC AND LAURA PERLMUTTER
Isaac "Ike" Perlmutter, the former chairman of Marvel Entertainment, and his wife Laura Perlmutter have donated more than $10 million in this election cycle to a new pro-Trump fundraising super PAC called Right for America. Perlmutter has been a regular at Trump's Mar-a-Lago residence in Florida and has been a longtime contributor to Trump's campaigns. The Perlmutters gave at least $21 million to America First Action Inc in 2020.
PATRICIA DUGGAN
Patricia Duggan, a major donor to the Church of Scientology, has given MAGA Inc more than $5 million this election cycle.
Her ex-husband Robert Duggan is an investor and entrepreneur whose fortunes were boosted by the 2015 sale of cancer drug maker Pharmacyclics to AbbVie (ABBV.N)
, opens new tab for $21 billion. Forbes puts his net worth at about $3.3 billion, opens new tab.
ROBERT BIGELOW
Nevada budget hotel tycoon Robert Bigelow, 79, has given MAGA Inc over $9 million in this cycle. Bigelow told Reuters in January he had pledged to give the pro-Trump group a total of $20 million.
Bigelow, who has a fascination with UFOs and space and funds various research efforts, has dined with Trump at Mar-a-Lago. Bigelow says he donated $1 million for Trump's legal funds.
In 2011, Forbes
, opens new tab estimated Bigelow's real estate holdings were worth around $700 million.
info from Reuters


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jul 24 - 03:31 AM

https://data.usatoday.com/2024-presidential-candidates-top-contributors-as-of-march-2024/?ref=kennedy


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jul 24 - 03:43 AM

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/7/11/bidens-candidacy-in-crisis-as-clooney-us-senator-call-on-him-to-quit


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Jul 24 - 11:06 AM

Enough hand-wringing, Dick! The candidate selection process is usually more orderly with primaries, but I think after people see the mess that is the GOP next week at their convention it will all settle down behind Biden and things will move forward. For those who aren't in love with Biden as they candidate, they will still vote against Trump. The down ballot candidates are the ones making the most fuss right now, but again, Democrats know that it isn't just the president, it is the house and senate, and where they are elected, judges, who will make a difference against this insane Project 2025 manifesto the Heritage Foundation has cooked up (with all sorts of past Trump administration officials). Trump can't get away with pretending he doesn't know what it is, or that it wouldn't go into effect were he elected. As great as HE thinks he is, all of those puppet masters around him really know who would be pulling the strings.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jul 24 - 11:22 AM

All supposition.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Jul 24 - 11:36 AM

So is your content, Dick.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 13 Jul 24 - 04:57 AM

I keep wondering why various actors are putting forward their opinions on President Biden and not leaving the political strategy decisions to the experts.

I also think that the high profile people expressing their opinions about Joe Biden choosing to stay in the race are putting the country at risk because, in my opinion, if President Biden backs out of the race now the chances of someone else gaining enough traction at this late stage is fairly slim. I think Trump is gaining traction through the to-and-fro discussions. That's just my opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Jul 24 - 06:40 AM

Their presumed degree of influence on the public is what's disturbing.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 13 Jul 24 - 06:50 AM

I agree, Lighter. It makes me wonder whether the actors are conflating their real world understanding with the fictional character roles they have played on screen.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Rain Dog
Date: 13 Jul 24 - 07:02 AM

They have an opinion just like those of us who also have an opinion.
Unlike some of us who post on this thread, they probably also have a vote and a genuine worry about the forthcoming election.

I remember a lot of the coverage of Reagan's campaign and his time in office. It did not stop him from being elected.

No doubt there is a difference of opinion amongst the 'experts' involved in decisions within the Democrats.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jul 24 - 02:18 PM

98...


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jul 24 - 02:23 PM

99…Aa-a-a-and……..


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 13 Jul 24 - 02:44 PM

Ok, I confess Rain Dog. I don't have a vote, but I do have genuine worries about Trump being re-elected because of the Australia-US alliance on various issues. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jul 24 - 03:18 PM

NPR has done their own poll which shows Biden has slipped very little since against TRMP since the debate. Partly because the American common people are not asdumbasallthat and there are many official Democrats who are cowards, which Biden is not.

There is a real risk in that though the poll MAY be accurate, it does not address the issue of the flippable states. And I don't think we can change the Constitution to eliminate the Electoral College in time for the upcoming election. I'll just spend some time finding a way to blame our system on the Victorians.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 13 Jul 24 - 04:47 PM

People who worked with Donald Trump on the man who wants to be president again

Some differing viewpoints on Trump:

Anthony Scaramucci
Miles Taylor [I like his one-liner - "'He's just a f***ing idiot,' he says."]
John Bolton
Gordon Sondland [supports Trump]
Chad Wolf [supports Trump]
Peter Strzok

Peter Strzok "was a senior official in the FBI's Counterintelligence Division who led the investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election won by Trump. He was forced to resign when private texts that denigrated Trump were made public."

He refers to Project 2025:

"Should he win back the presidency, Trump has vowed to pursue 'retribution' for himself and the Americans who feel they've been left behind by wokeism and liberal politics.

"But the plan for his second coming isn't all talk; he's supported by a coalition of conservative groups with a plan for power known as Project 2025, and has made dismantling institutions in Washington that he feels have wronged him, such as the Department of Justice, a top priority.

"That sends a chill up the spine of Peter Strzok."


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 13 Jul 24 - 07:47 PM

Donald Trump rushed off stage, audience member dead after shots fired at rally in Pennsylvania

"Donald Trump has been rushed off stage with blood on his face and at least two people, including a suspected gunman, have been killed at a political rally in the United States."


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Jul 24 - 08:50 PM

And so the Presidential Campaign shifts into a new gear.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Jul 24 - 09:05 PM

I keep the news off much of the day lately, it's too depressing. This was a surprise, to learn of what happened at this rally.

This is not how American elections are decided. "It's sick," says Biden in remarks.

The last thing we need is Trump turned into a martyr. (Now I'll put money on just how fast Trump manages to blame Biden for this assault.)


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 13 Jul 24 - 11:17 PM

There are so many ways this could play out now. Trump being seen as a martyr is one of those ways with the worst consequences, I think. It could turn some of the swinging voters' choices towards him.

Being in the line of fire at an open air rally might discourage his supporters from attending, but might not change their voting choices. Or, Trump might be too scared to stand out in the open again and be a potential target for the next possible attempt.

One thing I would like to see is that his supporters might suddenly have a revelation regarding the Capitol riot. It's more up close and personal now that they themselves have been in the firing line.

Democrats can use the opportunity to show how much more humane they are towards Trump than Trump is towards them. Democrats can decry the use of violence for political reasons. President Biden has already contacted Trump to check on his welfare and we know Trump would not have done that if the tables were turned. He would have used the incident as political ammunition to attack Biden.

Wait and see what happens. That's all we can do.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jul 24 - 03:01 AM

Trump’s supporters are already blaming Biden for ‘inciting’ this assassination attempt, according to BBC News. They are reporting a very dark change in American politics.

The only thing that surprises me about this incident is that it seems to have come as a surprise. I’ve been expecting it ever since Trump announced his intention to run for 47. He speaks the language of a violent man, and violence begets violence.

I’m of the mind that this is very likely a blessing in disguise for the Republicans’ campaign, that it may well encourage a ‘sympathy-vote’ from those currently undecided, and I’m even more convinced now that Trump will be elected in November. I’m praying that I’m wrong but…

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0359j43d78o


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jul 24 - 03:41 AM

Sadly, given Trump's track record, the first thing that sprang to my mind was that it was orchestrated.

I fear you are right though BWM :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jul 24 - 04:05 AM

Here’s The i’s take on the Trump assassination attempt.

The i is my preferred choice of newspaper due to its non-affiliation to any political party.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Jul 24 - 04:34 AM

orchestrated
even if not the GOP will play that card. But there are other potential "orchestrators" ............ how paranoiac should we be?


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 14 Jul 24 - 07:33 AM

We're screwed.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jul 24 - 08:48 AM

No one can **orchestrate** something like that! One idiot decides to be a hero and immediately there are conspiracy theories abounding.... some serious and some just to stir the pot.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: meself
Date: 14 Jul 24 - 10:30 AM

Yup - let the Conspiracy Theory Olympics begin!


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 14 Jul 24 - 10:32 AM

"Orchestrated" would have been a single shot, wide by a couple of feet or so, that hit some stage equipment. A spray of bullets that hits the intended target in the ear and goes on to kill and injure others, was a serious attempt at assassination.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jul 24 - 11:38 AM

I know all that Bill and Doug and I abhor these stupid conspiracy theories. The sad thing is that with Trump, nothing surprises us any more. Just you watch what mileage he will get out of his maga minions selling the story that it was a deep state plot by Biden


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: keberoxu
Date: 14 Jul 24 - 02:57 PM

"minions"
Despicable He ??


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Jul 24 - 03:49 PM

It'll be interesting to get TRMP in the interview room and ask him about his left ear and the Second Amendment:

There is a lyric going through my tiny mind from Dan Bern:

"Commandment 3 says do not kill
Amendment 2 says blood will spill
God sits in his rocking chair
Two flat tires and one good spare"


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 14 Jul 24 - 04:08 PM

This is an article by[ABC Oz's] global affairs editor John Lyons. In my opinion, he is always worth following because he is highly knowledgeable and analytical.

The Trump assassination attempt drives a line through the fabric of US democracy — fabric which was already frayed

"A bitterly divided United States has just become dangerously divided.

"This is a time for anyone with influence in the US to exercise their power to calm a shaken nation — rather than to stoke divisions and fears.

"The assassination attempt on Donald Trump has driven a new and extremely disturbing fault line straight through the fabric of American democracy — a fabric which was already fraying.

"The fragility of American stability and democracy is demonstrated by contemplating that had the shooter in Pennsylvania succeeded in killing Trump, would it have unleashed civil unrest in the US?

"Had one bullet been a few centimetres closer to Trump's brain — rather than grazed his ear — it could have changed US history and may have sent the US into a spiral of chaos and possibly violence in the streets."

"Stress on an already strained democracy

"American democracy and good governance was already under pressure.

"Joe Biden — a frail, incumbent president who struggles to get through a one hour news conference without misspeaking the name of a world leader or his own vice president — was fighting in the polls beside Trump, a convicted felon who has promised the powerful gun lobby, the National Rifle Association, that should he win in November he will not curtail the easy access Americans have to guns. This is surely an uncomfortable irony, given Trump was almost killed by a gun."

....

"Shortly after the shooting presidential historian Tim Naftali said the US was now in "a fragile moment" and that this was a time for careful words by opinion makers and influencers.

"He told CNN this was a time for those who shaped opinion to "dial down" rhetoric and not a time for "poison and hatred".

"'This is a time to stop hating each other', he said.

"And those whose views fit the extremes of US politics need to realise that this is deadly serious. Trump may have escaped the attempt on his life but bullets can kill, and did take the life of one man who attended the rally in Pennsylvania. The shooter was also killed.

"And in a country awash with guns, words can foment hatred, encouraging unhinged people to take to violence."


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Charmion
Date: 14 Jul 24 - 05:22 PM

Sow thee wind, reap the whirlwind.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Charmion's brother Andrew
Date: 14 Jul 24 - 06:07 PM

Helen, I thought Mr. Biden's remarks about "Donald" were heart-felt and fitting. I saw as much of his presser as CNN would broadcast, and the incumbent seemed not to stumble to respond to the media's questions at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 14 Jul 24 - 06:19 PM

Charmion's brother Andrew, I'm hoping that this shows President Biden in his true light, and that the people trying to push him aside will let him get on with the job and hopefully succeed.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Jul 24 - 10:22 PM

"Joe Biden — a frail, incumbent president who struggles to get through a one hour news conference without misspeaking the name of a world leader or his own vice president — was fighting in the polls beside Trump, a convicted felon . . ."

That isn't accurate about Biden; he did just fine at the press conference, no more than the usual slips that have been in his public speaking over the past 50 years or so.

We don't know what would have happened if the shooter had succeeded, but while the suggestion that US democracy is under pressure is reasonable, the general characterisation of that piece is a dystopian rant.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 15 Jul 24 - 01:45 AM

Stilly, I didn't agree with that particular sentence in the article. I think he was representing the opposing views of both Biden and Trump, but not necessarily his own personal views.

I have watched and read many of John Lyons' segments and he seems to have a military mind when it comes to analysing strategy. I think he was analysing political strategy in that article so maybe if you re-read it from that viewpoint it might be a little less confronting. Perhaps.

I didn't post all of the article here and I wasn't trying to upset anyone. Sorry if I did. :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 15 Jul 24 - 08:17 AM

The trouble with failed assassination attempts is that they elevate evil stains on the fabric of humanity to hero status. I would not be surprised if that despicable gobs**te will exploit this for every vote it can get. US news should be reminding voters every day how trump incited a revolt that led to the deaths of Brian Sicknick, Kyle DeFreytag, Howard Liebengood, Gunther Hashida, not to mention those who suffered life changing injuries. If that is the kind of lowlife US wants to elect as its president then it will surely be effectively handing in its resignation as being considered a civilised country.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Jul 24 - 11:55 AM

That article read like word salad, so it didn't get a deep reading from me.

Agreed, SPB-Cooperator. We need to continue to highlight Trump's bad acts—indeed, what's past is prologue.

Heather Cox Richardson's post from July 14 reminds us of all sorts of GOP threats of violence against the American public (and Trump's threats against individuals - to rough up people, etc.)
Edward Luce of the Financial Times noted, “Almost any criticism of Trump is already being spun by Maga as an incitement to assassinate him. This is an Orwellian attempt to silence what remains of the effort to stop him from regaining power.” Indeed, MAGA Republicans appear to be trying to stop discussion of their extremist plans— which are enormously unpopular— by claiming that such a discussion is polarizing.

The idea that Democratic opposition to authoritarian plans like those outlined in Project 2025 caused violence might convince MAGA Republicans, but it will likely be a hard sell for Americans who remember things like:

•Trump’s own suggestion in 2016 that “Second Amendment people” could solve the problem of Hillary Clinton picking judges; or his 2020 attacks on Michigan governor Gretchen Whitmer, who became the target of a kidnapping plot; or election workers bombarded with death threats as Trump lied that the 2020 election was stolen;

etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jul 24 - 01:20 PM

Anyone still think he has no chance of winning?

Heaven help us all...


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Jul 24 - 01:24 PM

It is exactly the same as before.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jul 24 - 02:03 PM

It doesn't look that way to us outside the US Stilly but if you still think he has no chance, thanks for that glimmer of hope anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 15 Jul 24 - 03:41 PM

Slip-ups like Joe Biden's misnaming of Trump and Harris are common, and usually caused by lack of sleep or stress, experts say

"In short: US President Joe Biden has been criticised after accidentally referring to his vice-president, Kamala Harris, as 'vice-president Trump'.

"Neuroscientists say it is very common to accidentally misname someone or something.

"The brain groups names which are related or sound similar and can draw on the wrong one under stress or when lacking sleep."

....

"Could misnaming be an early sign of cognitive decline?

"Neuroscientist Damian Holsinger from the University of Sydney specialises in Alzheimer's disease and said it would be unfair to assume Mr Biden is in a state of cognitive decline based only on naming slip-ups.

"'There is no correlation,' he said.

"'This is probably aged-related memory decline, not dementia.'"


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Jul 24 - 04:55 PM

Everyone does that misnaming - how often did you call out the names of each child and possibly the dog before you got to the name you meant to call?

Trump has selected a running mate that will require the least amount of design change in their campaign banners: remove "Pence" add "Va".

This week will be a flurry of information about Trump and the GOP. The Democratic party usually lays low and lets it happen. There are lots of early clips of Vance talking about how awful Trump is (back in the 2016 election era) that will make the rounds.

Next week the hard work starts. Getting people registered and motivated to go vote. I live in a deeply Republican state, but in urban areas, the GOP doesn't have quite as much clout. Biden got the most votes in my county, which was a few years ago named the most Republican county in the country.

If you can't say anything helpful, consider sitting on your hands. Borrowing trouble does no one any good.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 15 Jul 24 - 10:46 PM

That article is saying the misnaming is not a sign of cognitive decline, so basically Biden is still capable until proven otherwise. The article was a finding in Biden's favour and a justification for not jumping to conclusions about his cognitive state based on something we all do.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 16 Jul 24 - 04:24 AM

The dude who tried to pot Trump is a registered Republican. Isn't it time we addressed this Republican on Republican violence?


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jul 24 - 04:33 AM

Any comments on Vance? Some of his comments look like he is worse than Trump but what do us Brits know..?


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Jul 24 - 05:21 AM

Getting acquainted with Mr. Vance (quote):
------`
Mr. Trump is unfit for our nation’s highest office.
I can’t stomach Trump.
I think that he’s noxious and is leading the white working class to a very dark place.”
I think there’s a chance, if I feel like Trump has a really good chance of winning, that I might have to hold my nose and vote for Hillary Clinton.”
was a “moral
“total fraud”
serial sexual assault,”
one of USA’s most hated, villainous, douchey celebs,”
Vance deleted past anti-Trump tweets ahead of his announcement in July 2021 that he would run for the open Ohio Senate seat.

But that was then, just another MAGGY checking to see how the wind blows. This is now.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Rain Dog
Date: 16 Jul 24 - 06:28 AM

I was just about to make a similar post Ebbie. For those of us in the UK it certainly puts in to perspective Starmer's change of view on Corbyn.(Or maybe that should be Starmer's change of publicly declared view.)

Last night on the BBC TV programme Newsnight, one of the guests made a comment along the lines of 'division is America's default position'. That prompted me to do some searching and i found the following from The Conversation July 2016

Can America’s deep political divide be traced back to 1832?

This quote could have been made yesterday;

“We hold it a principle,” the Jacksonian newspaper the Albany Argus declared on February 17, 1824, “that every man should sacrifice his own private opinions and feelings to the good of his party and the man who will not do it is unworthy to be supported by a party, for any post of honor or profit.”

So Vance has changed his mind or has he? Perhaps he has just decided to ride this particular tiger in order to further his career.

PS

i made a post yesterday to the BS: BBC Radio 4 programming thread about a BBC Radio programme about the Principal Recovery Network.
The presenter is a British woman who moved with her family to Arizona.
At one point she asked why the PRN did not campaign for gun control. The person replied that if they did, it would cut them off from half of the people they want to help. Those people might well dismiss them as a liberal front organisation.

I found that comment very sad.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jul 24 - 08:20 AM

Trump has not changed at all

Is that any help?


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 16 Jul 24 - 08:44 AM

Vance's reaction to Tr*mp is reminding me of one wise chap's memorable summary of Machiavelli's The Prince:

An effective ruler should be either loved or feared. Fear has it every time: you get your weekends free.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Jul 24 - 11:39 AM

Prior to joining the US Senate two years ago Vance had no political experience. Prior to election he was known as an author.

Obama had a brief time in the Senate, but he had served in state legislature and a lot of political action community organizing positions, along with teaching law. If people start to compare Vance with Obama, make the point that Obama has always been politically active and engaged.

I'm reading Jen Psaki's book Say More: Lessons from Work, the White House, and the World. Chapter 10 opens with
REPORTER: A lot of Americans are saying that, you know, the surges are happening under President Biden's watch after he reversed some previous policy. So does the administration take any accountability for what's happening?

ME: Who are the Americans?

REPORTER: Well, I know you don't want to answer to him, but the former president just released a statement saying that "the Biden administration must act immediately to end the border nightmare that they have unleashed onto our nation."

ME: Former president Trump?

REPORTER: Yes.

ME: We don't take our advice or counsel from former president Trump on immigration policy, which was not only inhumane but ineffective over the last four years. We're going to chart our own path forward, and that includes treating children with humanity and respect, and ensuring they're safe when they cross our borders.

From there, she notes (the reason for that quote):
One of Donald Trump's favorite media strategies is to refer to non-specified "people" who just happen to be "saying" exactly the same thing he's been saying. If you don't hear the sarcasm in there about how I feel about this tactic, read again.
Part of the issue is of course that Trump has a relationship with the truth that is generously described as tenuous. He loves to quote straw men, nameless groups of made-up "people," because he knows those arguments can be effective. . .

The thing with any attribution made by Trump or his mouthpieces is to ask WHO they are speaking about. Ask for sources. Mostly it will be whole cloth, out of Trump's imagination. His only source is himself, and his lack of interest in studying any issue deeply needs to be highlighted.

This is a tip for man-on-the-street conversations, but also a reminder that when you cite articles you've read, keep track of where your sources are, so you can show your work, as it were, in one of those conversations if need be.

Ashley Judd recently posted a video of a family conversation with her step-father; they are politically polar opposites, but are determined that the politics won't get in the way of their family love. Having conversations with friends who support the other guy - keep it civil, and know your sources. I have neighbors on each side of me who support Trump, but we have managed to stay friends. Partly by not discussing politics, or by sticking to the issues that we agree on. By keeping it civil I have a better chance of changing their minds. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Rain Dog
Date: 16 Jul 24 - 11:39 AM

The ignorance is appalling.

From The Guardian

"Vance was speaking at the National Conservatism conference last week, where he said: “I have to beat up on the UK – just one additional thing. I was talking with a friend recently and we were talking about, you know, one of the big dangers in the world, of course, is nuclear proliferation, though, of course, the Biden administration doesn’t care about it."

“And I was talking about, you know, what is the first truly Islamist country that will get a nuclear weapon, and we were like, maybe it’s Iran, you know, maybe Pakistan already kind of counts, and then we sort of finally decided maybe it’s actually the UK, since Labour just took over.”

And

"England has been one of the few exceptions where it has fielded a very capable military over the last generation.”

Lammy needs to find some new friends.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Jul 24 - 01:30 PM

I think the next Islamic country to have the bomb will be Britain.

But seriously,

The election is still uncertain. There's no lock. We've got an incompetent liar for Republican Vice President now, in addition to the incompetent liar (but lucky reflexes) we've got top of that ticket. I'll take Kamala over either or both. And Joe is a hero to me. We all know he's too old, but we need his sanity (and Supreme Court picks).

Gotta say it clear: I was very concerned that we get through Obama's two terms without an attempt on his life. I already knew that Trump was even more hated than Obama and was glad we got through with him in good shape. This latest occurrence is mainly disturbing because it appears the shooter was allowed to get on a high view site he should not have. It should have been covered. Anyhow, I have no love for TRMP. But no hatred, either. We survived him once, it could happen again.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Jul 24 - 04:32 PM

The MSNBC talking heads today have been discussing the Project 2025 Heritage Foundation plan for the future and its relation to J.D. Vance - he is apparently their hand-picked candidate and Trump accepted him.

Meanwhile, the Washington Post has revealed that Vance's wife is an attorney who clerked for both John Roberts (chief justice) and Brett Kavanaugh of the supreme court (when she worked for Kavanaugh he was in the U.S. Court of Appeals in D.C.) Usha Vance, wife of Trump’s VP pick J.D. Vance, is a lawyer and Yale graduate. She was a Democrat back in 2014, but is now registered Republican and is quiet about politics. Sounds like she's in a difficult position politically.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Rain Dog
Date: 17 Jul 24 - 02:02 AM

Another question about US politics.

"She was a Democrat back in 2014, but is now registered Republican"

I am guessing that this refers to those states (31 according to wiki) that allow people to mark their party affiliation, or their unaffiliated status, on their voter registration form? It is not an indication that they are a member of the Republican or Democrat parties?

Are the voter registration lists available to the general public to peruse?


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Jul 24 - 11:12 AM

I don't know that voter registration lists are available to the public, but there are certainly lots of organizations who try to challenge them (hoping to knock out voters who will have a harder time renewing their registrations and who may have voted against the party the organization represents.) Nasty business.

You can see who people donate to, assuming normal donations, because you have to give some background (are you employed, where, what party are you registered in, and in that instance it may show when you last voted.) PACs and huge money donors live in an entirely different world.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jul 24 - 01:06 PM

I see that Obama has now weighed in against Biden. How does this affect things and who will step in if he does stand down?


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 18 Jul 24 - 01:37 PM

Apart from any debate as to whether Biden show evidence of Alzheimer's or not, there has also been a lot of of discussion as to whether he might have Parkinson's Disease. His own Dr and neurologist deny this, though it has been questioned by a number of other eminent neurologists.
(Just Google Biden + Parkinson's and you'll find plenty of reports).
It is also the impressions that I (retired medic)get: you don't necessarily have to have the tremor as part of Parkinson's Disease: in some people it manifests more as the mask-like facies, paucity/rigidity of movement, quiet voice, proneness to trips and falls. If he should stay on and get re-elected, it's doubtful how well he would manage another 4 years if he does indeed have it.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jul 24 - 01:41 PM

Oddly enough in an interview I just heard he did say that one of the factors that may cause him to stand down would be the diagnosis of a serious medical condition.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Jul 24 - 02:56 PM

Biden was diagnosed with COVID yesterday and has already started Paxlovid. He is isolating at the family home in Delaware.

We are hearing of remarks shared from Obama, and that seems to be the one person that will carry the most weight.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jul 24 - 09:55 AM

He will be replaced according to the book makers


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Jul 24 - 06:20 PM

He will not "be replaced." He will choose to continue to run or to step down, no one is doing any replacing.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Jul 24 - 10:50 PM

To understand some of the background in this whole "the rich donors want to change the candidate" debate, list to AOC - Alexdria Ocasio-Cortez. She gave a lot of background in an Instagram talk that you may find helpful. https://www.instagram.com/p/C9l41vgOAGj/.

The thing is, if any of the party machinations should become issues that go to court, there is a potential that the Trump Supreme Court could get a chance to weigh in and trash the party. Stick with the one that brung you, and move forward. Biden has the electoral votes. Changing any of this now risks court cases and if you think it's ugly now, just wait consider what would happen (and all of the Trump and Putin interference included) to the party right before the election.

Leave well-enough alone and move forward. That's the only sure way to keep Trump out of office.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 19 Jul 24 - 11:07 PM

Yes, it's too late to change horses in midstream.

I expect that Biden will start making some very strong statements about Trump and his (make believe) policies and about the 2025 Project. And I'm hoping he will also build up awareness and confidence in the outcomes he has already achieved as President, and the outcomes he hopes to achieve, e.g. righting the wrongs done by Trump, including women's right to choose their own health and well-being strategies in conjunction with medical professionals.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 02:04 AM

He will not "be replaced." He will choose to continue to run or to step down, no one is doing any replacin QUOTE
your comment is an example of quibbling
HE will not win the presidential race because he wont be there ,because he is in too poor health.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 02:57 AM

Lockheed Martin[armaments]donated to both candidates, but twice as much to Trump


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 10:44 AM

Dick, I don't know where you're getting your information - perhaps some of those elite Democratic donors? The rest of us, the mainstream voters, understand that Biden is older but he's doing fine. Way better than asshat Trump. You keep making pronouncements without evidence and I will dismiss them without having to dig out any, except of course that I live here and pay attention to this stuff. Hitchens Razor.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 10:49 AM

SRS it's not often that I defend Dick but the media we receive on this side of the pond is very much suggesting that Biden is being asked to step aside by many in his own party.

For example:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/jul/20/biden-resists-democratic-calls-step-down

We are being fed such articles on a daily basis.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 10:55 AM

He's not being asked by the voters. He's being asked by some of the big donors (who also have a megaphone), and that isn't all of the big donors. And if you think it's a simple matter of switching names on the ballot, you need to go listen to AOC's précis of what is happening in those smoke filled rooms. THE LAST THING WE NEED IS THE COURTS INVOLVED IN WHO IS THE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE. Right now the DNC is in control. You want to see the Supreme Court wade in? Then, like I said, sit on your hands, be patient, and let us work on this.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 11:04 AM

At risk of this being snipped, I can't help but think: Is this what they mean by Replacement Theory :-) ?

Runs and hides


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Charmion
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 11:43 AM

I enjoy and admire the political and social commentary of a bearded person on YouTube who calls himself "Beau of the Fifth Column". My brother Andrew calls him the Sage of Rural Florida.

Here's his channel: Beau of the Fifth Column

And here's what he has to say about replacing Biden: The Roads to Replacing Biden

Beau often tells his listeners to cool their jets and wait for the media chatter to die down, all the while paying close attention to what people actually do. He also recommends reading widely across the spectrum of opinion. He seems to be politically non-partisan, being interested primarily in parties' and candidates' efforts to support people who are doing less than well in life.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 12:07 PM

, and let us work on this quote
you are not involved, are you?,


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 02:01 PM

Dick, in a previous post I recall Stilly saying she is involved in encouraging local Democrat-leaning voters to vote in the election.

Give it a rest please. Let the US voters get on with the job and stop quibbling over bits and pieces of posts which are nothing (in my opinion) compared with the important work of ridding the US and the world of a dangerous autocrat.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 03:26 PM

Helen. Doing anything on an obscure folk music forum will do sweet FA. Cheerleading from the sidelines in Australia will do sweet FA. Telling people to sit on their hands and do nothing is worse than sweet FA. It is dangerous.

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

I shall speak out against anything I perceive as wrong whether or not my friends agree. And saying nothing about the traction that Trump is gaining with Biden's seeming frailty is simply wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 05:15 PM

In October of 1919 President Woodrow Wilson suffered a debilitating stroke. His wife Edith and his inner circle hid the extent of his disability and Edith basically ran the country for the next year and a half and no one knew because she put forward his policies. The point is that it doesn't matter if the president succumbs completely to dementia, we still need to vote for him. His policies and agendas will be forwarded by those around. The real disaster would be another term for Trump. A disaster for seniors and the infirm (Project 2025 specifically calls for defunding Medicaid and Medicare). A disaster for the environment (Trump has already vowed to end most regulations on pollution and investment in alternative energy. A disaster for women especially if the GOP also takes the Senate. There will most certainly be a federal ban on abortion. A disaster for workers. Even as Vance


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 05:28 PM

Don't know how I got cut off but let me continue. Even as Vance is telling the convention how they were going to defend the working class against the elites, Trump is meeting with said elites promising another corporate tax cut. A disaster for children as they continue the onslaught against the public school system. Against the true teaching of history and science. A disaster for minorities, immigrants, allies, our constitution. The Dems could elect a farm animal or piece of cheap furniture and it would be a better alternative than Trump.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 05:36 PM

Dave, what, except complain, do YOU intend to do from the UK? I don't think you can legally donate to campaigns here. You can't vote. So you folks who are nagging are nagging the choir. What is FA? Fuckall? Then just say it.

Those of us who can are working on these things, choosing the avenue that works best. I am participating with a Texas-based group that is working to register voters here in Texas. Donations to non-partisan groups that support voting rights, select politicians, and a group that does excellent videos explaining how politics work (or should work) headed by Professor Robert Reich, former Labor Secretary under Bill Clinton (the group is Inequality Media Civic Action, out of Berkeley, CA, and you might be able to donate to them.)

We don't give a rat's ass what bookies in the UK OR IRELAND think, and we don't need to hear about it repeatedly.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 06:35 PM

Thanks Neil D, for your summary of the key issues at stake.

And thanks Stilly, for working towards encouraging more people to vote in the election.

Two of the main worries I have (from my perspective as an interested outsider in a country allied to the US) are:

that the persistent badgering of President Biden to back down from his election campaign could undermine the chances of Democrat success especially in the absence of a likely alternative candidate at this late stage in the campaign;

and that it may also discourage voters who are told repeatedly that Trump will win regardless of how they vote or even whether they vote.

Endlessly repeated prophecies of doom can generate a sense of hopelessness which can discourage proactive action, and it is made worse when the prophecies of doom are not necessarily based in solid facts and are instead based on opinion and fear, or selective media coverage, or maybe even a secret sense of glee at others' misfortune.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Rain Dog
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 02:56 AM

BBC Radio 4 had a programme yesterday in their profile series, on J D Vance. (NPR were also mentioned)

Profile - J D Vance

From ‘hillbilly’ roots to becoming Donald Trump’s nominee for vice-president. At 39, if JD Vance is elected, he would be one of America’s youngest ever Vice-Presidents. A lot has been laid bare in his own words, in ‘Hillbilly Elegy: A Memoir of a Family and Culture in Crisis’. He talks about being raised by his grandparents who moved from the Appalachian Mountains area of Kentucky to Ohio, to a Middle America Rust Belt town looking for a better life. His mother struggled with drug addiction and a string of chaotic relationships. So how did he go from a sometimes unstable, sometimes violent, upbringing to being in the running to take one of the highest offices in American politics? There’s another transformation many wonder about too: why did he change his mind on Trump? Only in 2016 JD Vance said ‘I can't stomach Trump. I think that he's noxious and is leading the white working class to a very dark place.’ Mark Coles finds out.

Credit: NPR Fresh Air

Presenter: Mark Coles
Producers: Phoebe Keane, Diane Richardson
Editor: Penny Murphy


++

An interesting choice of candidate. I do have my doubts that they really get on. Probably both think they are taking advantage of the other in their pursuit of ???

Ride that tiger. Ride that tiger.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Rain Dog
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 04:03 AM

I see from an article in The Guardian that hard questions will be asked of all those responsible for security at the Trump rally.

Gunman at Trump rally flew drone over fairgrounds earlier on day of shootings

They mention the following:

"New information about Crooks’ intensive planning for the attack has also been gleaned from 14,000 browser history links in his phone. While he did not leave an ideological manifesto common to many mass-shooting perpetrators, FBI investigators have disclosed that online searches linked in his phone showed that he’d researched school shootings. He reportedly searched Michigan school shooter Ethan Crumbley and had a mugshot of him on his phone.

Crooks also performed internet searches on next month’s Democratic convention and Joe Biden, depressive disorder and explosive materials and chemical compounds. Crooks brought a pair of homemade bombs to the rally designed to be set off with a remote fireworks igniter, as well as a bulletproof vest and three 30-round magazines later found in his Hyundai Sonata."

I know that the investigation is still ongoing but are the police obliged to update the media as the investigation continues?

Another story today

US Secret Service rejected previous Trump team requests for more resources – reports

I guess more will come to light when Kimberly Cheatle testifies before the US House of Representatives oversight committee on Monday. Then we will have to wait until the investigation is completed, published and then the various spins applied.

I hope security is improved for the remainder of the campaign.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 04:21 AM

I just watched PBS Washington Week With The Atlantic. One of the members of the panel discussed the difficulty of finding a candidate to run instead of Biden, if he drops out, and especially given that the timing is very tight for a November election campaign. I think it was the same panel member who also mentioned the lack of success when Hillary Clinton ran instead of Barack Obama, although we know that the tricks played by Trump and the election interference made it more difficult for her to succeed.

Another panel member made the point that the Democrats can operate like a proper political party in discussions and decisions, even while weighing up the pros and cons of Biden continuing his campaign, unlike the Republicans who are "all over the shop" [that's my terminology], random and out of control.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 05:06 AM

"Endlessly repeated prophecies of doom can generate a sense of hopelessness"

While sticking your fingers in your ears and singing "everything's coming up roses" while others despair at what the US electorate have to put up with is very helpful?


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 06:42 AM

So how much do you charge for your precognitive readings? And do you use a crystal ball, tea leaves, tarot cards, psychometry, communing with the spirits?


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 07:10 AM

BBC News just now, reporting that Trump has claimed, in a speech, that he ‘took a bullet for democracy’. You really couldn’t make it up, could you?

Unfortunately, there are likely to be a large number of Americans who will fall for it, exactly the same way they’ve fallen for the rest of his shit. Let’s pray they are outnumbered by Americans with intelligence and a well-developed sense of right and wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 11:12 AM

Give it a break, Dave. No one is saying everything is coming up roses, but since I LIVE HERE I have a better sense of just how pissed off American women are that the GOP and the Supreme Court are taking away our rights. Pete and repeat on the remarks about doom and gloom. Trump doesn't know what is going to hit him in November. And apparently your pundits haven't caught a whiff of that anger and frustration.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 11:28 AM

You are giving us a glimmer of hope, Stilly, and I sincerely hope that you are right. But being told to shut up by another member is not my idea of open debate. You are not my only US contact for news BTW and my cousin and his wife, both Democrats and fiercely anti Trump, are already making arrangements to move here after November. They are in Florida though so maybe their view is different to that of the average Texan. Are you sure that you are reflecting the view of the typical American and not just that of your own bubble?


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 11:40 AM

...and, Helen, no, I don't use any of those things. I use my eyes and ears on a number of different sources. If you can only come up with sarcastic comments instead if reasoned arguments, your posts are not really worth reading. Tell you what, as soon as you see a post that is from me, ignore it and I will do the same with yours. Deal?


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 12:53 PM

Florida and Texas both have toxic governors who transport immigrants who just arrived in the US to northern "liberal cities." They have clamped down on abortion rights to such an extent that pregnant women with complications are nearly dying before they can receive the care they need.

Delayed and denied: Women pushed to death's door for abortion care in post-Roe America
DENTON, Texas, and NEW YORK -- This is Part II of a three-part special ABC News investigation looking at the impact of abortion restrictions in America after the U.S. Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade in June 2022. The "Impact by Nightline" broadcast, "On the Brink," with exclusive interviews by Diane Sawyer and Rachel Scott, brings you inside the raw, intimate and overlooked conversations playing out in clinics and exam rooms as the country continues to confront the realities of a post-Roe America. It premieres Dec. 14 on Hulu.


Her baby was going to die. Abortion laws forced her to give birth anyway

Texas Supreme Court rejects challenge to state's abortion ban over exceptions for pregnancy complications
Five women brought the lawsuit in March 2023, saying they were denied abortions even when issues arose during their pregnancies that endangered their lives. The case grew to include 20 women and two doctors.

The plaintiffs had not sought to repeal the ban, but rather to force clarification and transparency as to the precise circumstances in which exceptions are allowed. They also wanted doctors to be allowed more discretion to intervene when medical complications arise in pregnancy.


A woman who sued Texas for access to abortion seeks a procedure out of state instead
Kate Cox, a 31-year-old woman from the Dallas area facing pregnancy complications who had sued the state of Texas for access to an abortion, has left the state to get the procedure, according to the Center for Reproductive Rights.


New Biden ad blames Trump as Texas woman says she nearly died after abortion ban
The Biden campaign released an ad Monday featuring a Texas woman who said she almost died because she was not able to get the abortion she needed following a miscarriage.

Why it matters: The ad places the blame on former President Trump for the state-level bans on abortion, like in Texas, that lawmakers have passed since the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade in 2022.

Driving the news: The emotional ad features Amanda Zurawski, an Austin woman who says she had a miscarriage after her water broke at 18 weeks.


When you keep posting the same complaints again and again it doesn't allow the conversation to precede. It annoys the participants. You're telling us we're going to be failures in solving this problem. So, like I said before, stop it. We don't need that kind of negativity.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 01:32 PM

I have not complained about anything but being told to shut up! And I have never told anyone that they are going to fail. Look back through my posts and I have only ever said that I hope, wish and pray that you are right but I fear the worst. My fears are real to me but they do not reflect on anyone else's ability.

On a tangent here but I forgot to add before - Did anyone else notice that "Hulk" Hogan appeared at Trumps recent rally? Who remembers the Trump vs McMahon nonsense on WWE? I used to worry that so many people seemed to believe that all this stuff was real. Now it is happening in politics and it now scares me to death!


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 02:33 PM

Meanwhile in Ohio a 10-year-old who was raped and impregnated at age 9 was forced to go out of state for an abortion. This was only 6 days after Dobbs but Ohio had a trigger law in place that outlawed all abortion instantly.
Then the Indiana Board of Medicine investigated the performing Dr and hit her with a bogus patient confidentiality charge and a $3000 fine. I say bogus because, though she had commented on the case, she had never mentioned the patient's name.
In April 2023, the head of Cincinnati Right to Life, Laura Strietmann, commented that the girl should have been forced to give birth, explaining that although "a pregnancy might have been difficult on a 10-year-old body, a woman’s body is designed to carry life," and that abortion rights should not be brought to a public vote.[23] Despite Strietmann's argument, a vote was held in November 2023 which amended the Constitution of Ohio to protect abortion rights.
That election last November was quite interesting in Ohio. We not only legalized abortion but we legalized cannabis as well. And this is a fairly deep red state. I think there were 2 factors at work here: the 2 bills supported each other. People who came out for legal pot also voted for legal abortion and vice versa; also, I think that these 2 issues do not break down as much on party lines as people think. I'm certain that many Republican women voted for the abortion bill and I think most people of each party have come to realize that marijuana laws are obsolete. Ohio wasn't the only red state to vote to protect abortion rights after the Dobbs decision. Kansas is one that comes to mind.
Now as to the comments of Laura Streitmann, I'm not big on hyperbole so I'm not going to say that all Repubs are heartless and inhumane, but her views do reflect those of a substantial percentage of that party.
All the more reason we can't let the GOP get control of our government.
.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 02:39 PM

Biden has gone?


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 02:41 PM

Let's phrase it in the form of a statement. Biden has issued on on-line announcement that he is departing the race.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 02:51 PM

At least he lasted longer than Liz Truss...


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 02:56 PM

I must add that I am looking forward to seeing Harris shred Trump at the next debate. It gives me more hope for the future.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 03:02 PM

It's on the Beeb, and on Sky News, here in the UK: Joe Biden's stepped down ("in the best interests of my country"), and nominated Kamala Harris as presidential candidate. Much debate about who will be nominated as Harris's running mate.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 03:42 PM

I am sad..and worried. Perhaps he should also quit and let her at least be POTUS for a few months.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 04:10 PM

From an article which is being updated at present on ABC (Oz) News:

Barack Obama says says the decision is 'a testament to Joe Biden’s love of country'

"'Former president Barack Obama, who Joe Biden served as VP for two terms, has issued a statement paying tribute to his 'dear friend'.

"He says Biden's 'outstanding track record' gave him 'every right to run for re-election and finish the job he started'.

    "'Joe Biden has been one of America's most consequential presidents, as well as a dear friend and partner to me. Today, we’ve also been reminded – again – that he’s a patriot of the highest order. '

    "'I also know Joe has never backed down from a fight. For him to look at the political landscape and decide that he should pass the torch to a new nominee is surely one of the toughest in his life. But I know he wouldn’t make this decision unless he believed it was right for America.'

    "'It's a testament to Joe Biden's love of country — and a historic example of a genuine public servant once again putting the interests of the American people ahead of his own that future generations of leaders will do well to follow.'"


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 06:04 PM

Deposed by thunder! They tipped him the black spot.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 06:48 PM

Yes I agree, Big Al Whittle, but it looked like the badgering was not going to stop and it has been placing the Democrats in a vulnerable position. It is very late in the game to put in a substitute player but there were limited options, and this is the game they really need to win.

My real hope is that Kamala Harris is chosen as the Presidential candidate, because she has inside knowledge of how the President should operate, and because she will appeal to a lot of the women voters who have serious concerns about a possible future second term for Trump, and because the campaign funds allocated to Biden can flow on to Harris. A new, different candidate could not access those funds and would have to start from scratch and, given the limited time until the election, that could be a major obstacle.

I have arrived at these opinions based on a number of reputable, reliable, fact-based news sources e.g. ABC (Australia) News, ABC America, Planet America on ABC (Oz), PBS Washington Week With The Atlantic, PBS News, and other sources.

And as I have said before, in a democratic system where voting is not compulsory, voters need to be motivated to vote based on a reasonable expectation that their vote will make a positive difference, that there is a high level of hope that their chosen candidate will succeed, and that the successful candidate will achieve the desired outcomes while in office.

I still worry that many voters, but especially white, male voters would not vote for a woman to be President, and even some Democrat supporters who are women may not vote for a woman to be President. To achieve that outcome, I thought that President Biden would continue with his campaign, showing the world that he is capable of campaigning, winning and continuing his Presidential achievements and that possibly his health would decline in the next year or so and he would hand over the reins to VP Harris, but that would have depended on him succeeding in gaining a second term.

Wait and see, hope and pray.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 08:00 PM

Helen, I think any white, male voters who wouldn't vote for a woman are already staunchly in the other camp. And I just can't picture any Democrat women who wouldn't vote for a woman. She sure is going to have to come on strong in the 3 1/2 weeks left. I think the next round of polling will show she is starting from behind. For what it's worth she has my full support.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 08:19 PM

I hope you are right, Neil D. I'm fearing the worst regarding a woman as Presidential candidate and hoping for the best.

I have worked in a lot of different workplaces and the general belief tended to be that men were promoted to management, and promoted other men to management, and women had "other skills" like typing, admin, people skills etc. That was despite our best efforts as union reps and union members to generate healthy, productive change. Society is changing, so maybe my past decades of experiences are out of date in this century. I sincerely hope so. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 09:33 PM

If I weren't pretty sure that too many people would not vote for the pair, my vote would go to Kamala Harris and Pete Buttigieg. He is bright, informed, articulate and engaged.

Failing that, I'd vote for Amy Klobuchar- but no one is going to vote for TWO women. (One might surmise that I'm not in tune with the American people.)

AND failing that, I vote for Mark Kelly.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 09:57 PM

Since the announcement was made this afternoon in the first five hours the Harris campaign has brought in $46.7M. I sent something (larger than the rest of my individual contributions). The data spoke to Biden.

Joe would have won. Kamala will win. The difference is that the moneyed class got their way on which candidate will be on the ballot. That is a problem, but one to solve another day. The reason the Big Names in the party (Obama, Pelosi, Schumer, etc.) haven't endorsed Harris today is because they wanted this day to honor Biden and his work, and the endorsements will come tomorrow. And Biden is still the president, for six more months.

When it comes to a running-mate, the goal is to benefit the campaign by having someone who will bring in votes on their own. But they also have to be smart and savvy enough to step into the presidency if the need arises. If you choose someone already in office when there is a shortage of Democratic senators and congresspeople, you need to choose someone who doesn't need to be replaced (when in the interim their absence might make a difference in the balance of power.) One strategy is to choose a governor of one of the four or five states that (because of the blankety-blank electoral college) is a battleground state. (That is so unfair to the entire electorate, that the electoral college is the decider instead of the popular vote - perhaps we'll finally get THAT mess fixed soon.)

I think the reason why so many people are stepping up now to endorse Harris is to mute the bullshit that the big dollar donors might try to pull to have some other candidate compete for the presidential position. They made enough trouble, now they need to, as Texas Congress member Jasmine Crockett says "lace up their shoes and get to work."

So far (again, within seven hours of the announcement) five states have announced that their Biden electorates are now committed to Harris. This will continue through the week and by the time of the Democratic Convention hopefully this will be resolved (it also has to be done in time to head off some BS from Ohio that means the candidate has to be selected by their deadline, though the Democratic Convention is scheduled after that deadline.)


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 24 - 10:33 AM

Joe would have won. quote
so why was he dropped?


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 24 - 11:04 AM

from new york times
R.F.K.-Aligned Super PAC Draws Heavily From a Republican Megadonor

A super PAC backing Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s bid for the Democratic nomination received $5 million from a major Republican donor who has supported Donald J. Trump in the past.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Jul 24 - 11:31 AM

Go back and read what is already here, Dick.

Joe wasn't "dropped." The large donors with a megaphone decided they wanted something different. Politicians in states where they fear Biden's coattails wouldn't help sweep them to victory piled on. Nothing needed to change, Biden would have won. But the complaining was likely to scare off those few voters who really didn't have a firm reason for wanting our Democracy to continue or Women's Rights to be restored, and Joe recognized that and chose to leave the race so the party can proceed with a younger candidate who might persuade the undecided. Well, kids you got what you wanted, now pony up.

The $50M that Harris raised in a few hours was all from small donors, individually without and megaphones, bonding together to build their own megaphone that shows huge support. I repeat, big names and big mouths, now is the time to support Harris so she can secure the nomination and a running mate. Get it done and out of harm's way before Putin and Trump and Thiel start meddling.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 24 - 12:42 PM

How popular is Kamala in general?


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Jul 24 - 05:55 PM

The thing , in England we're very used to politicians talking incoherent bollocks.....
not a hanging offence over here.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 24 - 06:24 PM

He wasnt dropped he just dropped out


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jul 24 - 06:45 PM

Wow! Did anyone else listen to Kamala Harris's speech? She was fantastic, hard hitting and believable. My money is on her. She can win.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 22 Jul 24 - 07:28 PM

I like Cory Booker for VP, but someone like Mark Kelly might be a safer bet.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 22 Jul 24 - 07:49 PM

Ebbie, I am cautiously optimistic too. Finally a glimmer of hope!


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jul 24 - 08:50 PM

Exactly, Helen. Hopes dashed has happened so often but this one feels different. As someone said, she spoke only verifiable truths. He's going to be running scared.

We'll have to brace ourselves for the vitriol he's going to sling her way. The good thing is that I don't think it will faze her.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 23 Jul 24 - 12:08 AM

Unfortunately the vitriol slinging has already started but I suspect she will bat it away fairly confidently, and maybe make some home runs in the process.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jul 24 - 10:12 AM

It seems the GOP is wondering if they can call up a court case to prevent Biden from handing over the DNC war chest to Harris. Lots of luck with that one, guys. Desperate measures. And if Biden decided to do an end run and step down, giving the Presidency to Harris, all of Trump's "47" merch would suddenly be obsolete. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 23 Jul 24 - 01:43 PM

I especially like this statement in Kamala Harris's first speech:

Kamala Harris has vowed to go after Republican nominee Donald Trump like the courtroom prosecutor she once was as she made her debut campaign speech.

“'I took on perpetrators of all kinds. Predators who abused women, fraudsters who ripped off consumers, cheaters who broke the rules for their own gain,' she told supporters at Biden’s campaign headquarters in Wilmington, Delaware.

“'So hear me when I say I know Donald Trump’s type. In this campaign, I will proudly, I will proudly put my record against his,' said Harris, who was attorney general of California and a US senator before serving as Biden’s vice president."

(Note: I tried to find it on ABC (Oz) News but I have read so many articles and seen it on TV so it was difficult to track it down.)


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jul 24 - 01:56 PM

Helen, here is Kamala Harris’s full speech in which she declares that ‘I know his type’. I’m impressed so far…


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 23 Jul 24 - 02:29 PM

Thanks BWM.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jul 24 - 03:15 PM

Hated all the whooping and hype but loved the speech. She gives me hope for the future. Let's hope she continues. For the first time I am looking forward to watching the next presidential debate.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jul 24 - 04:34 PM

Whooping and hollering is just what Americans do, Dave - it’s their ‘thang’. ;-)
Me, I just tune out all the noise. So far I’m impressed with Ms Harris. Fingers crossed…


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: gillymor
Date: 23 Jul 24 - 04:36 PM

Yeeeeehaaaaaw!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 23 Jul 24 - 04:50 PM

Behold, an American in the wild, doing his thang, uttering his iconic cry, "Yeeeeehaaaaaw!!!".

We're happy for you, gillymor and Stilly and all of our other US friends who finally might be able to see some light at the end of the tunnel.

I think Kamala Harris's comment about knowing Donald Trump’s type is a call of the wild as well, i.e. "bring it on, (Trump) baby!".


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: gillymor
Date: 23 Jul 24 - 05:05 PM

Thank you, Helen. I hope that sounded authentic.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 23 Jul 24 - 06:06 PM

Definitely authentic. David Attenborough would be convinced. LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jul 24 - 09:35 PM

That "light" was always at the end of that tunnel. I still say that Joe would have won (and we don't need Dick jumping in and saying I have no evidence - neither does he.) Jumping on the Kamala bus was pushback at the Democrats who were trying to talk Biden out of the race as much as they were supporting her - because as AOC pointed out - many of the moneyed folks were behind the scenes wanting both of them off the ticket. By donating right away and volunteering right away - all of the small money folks were making it clear that Harris had to stay on the ticket.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 23 Jul 24 - 11:26 PM

I think the light is a little bit brighter and the end of the tunnel a little bit closer.

I think President Biden deserves a huge amount of credit for soldiering on, and I think he could have succeeded but the Trump baby is a once-in-a-century challenge and Kamala Harris is all charged up to fight, with Biden beside her, not as a running mate but as a strategic advisor with inside knowledge.

And, I think it is ironic that Trump has taken some potshots at Kamala, giving her the nickname Laughing Kamala, saying you can tell a lot about people from their laugh, and it made me think: have I ever seen any footage or photos of Trump laughing? He is so negative, I don't think he even knows how to laugh. Even when he is making snide remarks about other people, he does not laugh.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jul 24 - 02:46 AM

Policies are the important thing not personalities.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jul 24 - 03:27 AM

I wonder if it’s occurred to tRump that there’s now only one old man with declining mental agility and capacity in the Presidential race, and it’s him?

The more I see and hear Kamala Harris, the more impressed I am with her. But, of course, it’s American voters she needs to impress. Hopefully she will score big on the issues of women’s health and gun control. And, of course, we await with interest the debates - intellectually she seems to be on a different level to tRump, let’s hope she can rise above his tactics of dirty looks and insults.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jul 24 - 12:43 PM

How ironic that the Republicans bill themselves as the "Back the Blue" (ie. support law and order) party, who now have to justify to themselves why they would vote for a literal convicted felon over a literal state prosecutor.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 24 Jul 24 - 01:11 PM

Even more ironic, BWM, is that one of the goals of Project 2025 is to dismantle the Dept of Justice. I don't know a lot about that except that this week I watched a two-part documentary on Oz ABC TV in which different people around Trump were interviewed. One of them talked about the intention of re-working the DOJ to their own advantage if Trump gets back into the White House.

Four Corners: Retribution (Parts 1 & 2)


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Jul 24 - 02:00 PM

They're also using Agenda 47 to describe that nefarious plan.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Jul 24 - 02:21 PM

When Kamala was in the nomination race against Biden (and others) I was not impressed. Primarily because of her lack of presence, according to me. I felt that I had not given her a chance, and when she ran with Joe Biden I was okay with that, but her presence as a speaker, her mannerisms under questioning, did not grow on me. I suspect I'm not alone in that feeling, and I hope that she has gone to work on her 'aspect' a la Margaret Thatcher. I was all for Joe right up to his dropping out, because there is an American saying dating back to Abraham Lincoln's second run for President with the Civil War still raging: "Don't change horses in midstream."
So amidst the gladsome tidings of her comparative youth her legal experience, her minority status, her supposed ability in a debate, the Democratic Party took a hit when Biden dropped out. I'm not saying it didn't have to go this way, but we are on untrodden ground here.

Having said all that, I also strongly feel that what we are experiencing, political stomach butterflies and all, is an actual case of DEMOCRACY WORKING. This is what happens with the perversity and unpredictability of the human animal straining at the restraints. Our institutions are holding together remarkably well. And our luck has held out as well, in the lack of violence, and the good luck in not losing a candidate due to the random act of violence of last week.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Jul 24 - 02:53 PM

Look what charisma will buy you - someone like Trump whose bad behavior keeps all of the cameras pointed at him. I'd settle for staid or boring if the next leader will get the job done without breaking the law and restore our rights.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 24 Jul 24 - 11:11 PM

I just watched Biden's speech where he officially bowed out of the race. I must admit to having an unexpected emotional reaction. I felt like I was witnessing the passage of one of our last great statesmen.
But, moving on. What does anyone think about Andy Beshear as running mate for Harris. He's a 2-term Democratic governor in a deep red state, so he has shown he can win Republican and Independent votes.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Jul 24 - 11:14 PM

Every pundit has their favorite on that short list, and they all have compelling reasons. We shall see soon, but they're keeping the cards very close to the vest.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Jul 24 - 12:38 AM

This is where the Democratic political players can show their stuff. The 'bullpen' (if there is a better term for this, i.e. more illustrative/ conclusive, don't hesitate to weigh in here). I'm thinking that there is a possibility that TRMP and his limited brainiacs, in other words, his family and acolytes, pulled a boner with picking Vance. Savvy Dem politicos who can weigh ability, personality, state of origin, etc. etc. may turn out to be as useful as they were traditionally.

Now I'm bringing back gto memory some of the great though dated songs from a Broadway Musical of the 60s celebrating the career of Fiorello LaGuardia, one of the great politicians of New York (and a Republican). The musical, called Fiorello!, starred Tom Bosley, who could sing! He may be remembered by some of the folks who liked the long running series: "Happy Days." Anyway, the musical is a revisit to old days of smoke filled rooms, back room deals, and those are the good guys ("Politics and Poker"). And the corrupt bastards ("A LIttle Tin Box") are remembered, too.

Those days are gone, sort of. The human motivations that underlie our decisions are not.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jul 24 - 01:59 AM

Policies, quote from Vox
Trump, by contrast, has promised to quickly end the war in Ukraine — a pledge celebrated on placards waved in Milwaukee — most likely by pressuring Kyiv to negotiate away territory to Moscow. He is also a longtime skeptic of European security alliances, including NATO, and recently suggested Taiwan should “pay us for defense” against an invasion by China, which sent the stock price of the island’s vital semiconductor manufacturers falling. Vance, Trump’s new running mate, is one of Congress’s leading skeptics of efforts to defend the “liberal international order,” particularly when it comes to the war in Ukraine.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jul 24 - 12:20 PM

Just spotted in a FarceBook post, made me larrff…

”The American approach to healthcare can be pretty shocking, but the new policy that obliges people with mental health issues to warn others of their condition by wearing a conspicuous white bandage on their ear seems downright sinister.”

I do like a bit of humour in political discussions…


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Mudcat time: 25 July 1:18 PM EDT

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