Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 15 Aug 24 - 10:11 AM

Echoing the thanks to Molly for putting the record straight, and yes, I shall keep playing it (slowly of course).
Btw, I didn't learn it originally from sheet music, but from my own transcription having bought the recording of Major John Perkins playing it, after hearing it on Classic FM.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 14 Aug 24 - 05:12 AM

Molly Mason's intervention reminds me of a scene from 'Annie Hall' where a knowall in the queue for a Marshall McLuhan event was loudly giving his doubtful opinions about the man. Woody Allen was also in the queue, and frustrated by this, so left the queue, asked Mr McLuhan IN PERSON about the man's opinions.

McLuhan gave a very negative view of this idiot & Woody Allen then turned to the cinema audience and said      'wouldn't YOU like to do that?'

thank you Molly Mason, now can we just get on with just playing this lovely tune?

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,Lang Johnnie Mor
Date: 14 Aug 24 - 04:57 AM

To lighten the discussion a bit, "Ashokan Farewell" used to be a favourite tune of my mother. She lived in Perthshire, and sent a request for it to be played on a local radio station in Dundee, however, she asked the presenter if he would play "The Shocking Farewell". :)
He had a good laugh at this, and I think he got in touch with her to ask if he could use it on the programme. That was OK, and he sent her the CD which had the tune recorded on it. { don't remember who it was, I'm afraid ]. Good result all round.
Carry on.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 14 Aug 24 - 03:13 AM

We have seen the best and worst of Mudcat in this thread.

Thanks to Molly Mason for providing the background to the tune that we have been seeking.

Thanks to Tattie Bogle and Johnny J for their memories of the early work of the Scottish Music Group.

Thanks to Reinhard, Lighter and others for digging into the records with such determination.

Thanks to everyone who has made a positive contribution to the discussion.

Jack Campin, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: Helen
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 08:41 PM

Yes, thank you Molly and Jay. I have played music with a group of friends just for fun for 40 years and Ashokan Farewell is one of our favourite tunes.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: Helen
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 04:20 PM

Thank you, Molly Mason, for providing the copyright information and the timing of various events in the history of the tune.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 04:20 PM

Thank you, Molly and Jay, for Ashokan Farewell!

We were lucky enough to see Walt Michael & Co at Girvan Folk Festival in the late 1980s - Walt Michael, Frank Orsini, Evan Stover and Tommy Whetmore.

Evan Stover took Ashokan Farewell with him from Fiddle Fever and performed it with the group. We have enjoyed it ever since.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,Molly Mason
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 04:05 PM

Ashokan Farewell- (written in’82, copyright in ‘83 when we put it on our
second Fiddle Fever album.) Ken Burns was given a coupe of that
Record& became interested in the tune for his future big project.
When that project ( the Civil War series came out Sept.of 1990,
That’s when Mel Bay and other companies got interested in
Putting out versions of it.
Is there confusion with Copyright date and publishing date?
For sure, not many folks were interested in the tune for the first
8 or 9 years, unless they had been to music camp at Ashokan
Or were Fiddle Fever fans! We did have lots of gigs back the.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 03:26 PM

Helen; From: Helen Date: 13 Aug 24 - 12:22 PM
Guest, henryp, the "piece of shit" comment was made anonymously by GUEST Date: 11 Aug 24 - 07:40 PM.

"WorldCat lists far more different formats and arrangements for that piece of shit than I have the patience to sift through. The 1983 date is the copyright date for all of them, be it print, electronic, braille or translated into Amharic. Look for sites that sell sheet music and you will immediately come across printed ones with the 1983 publication date."

Thank you, Helen. Are you familiar with Amharic? I wonder how many people are.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 02:19 PM

Jack Campin says;
henryp: https://www.melbay.com/Products/95056/ashokan-farewell.aspx
Does that look electronic? Can you read the date?
Now fuck off.

Jack, the date may say 1/1/83. But this particular edition was published after the broadcast of The Civil War series in 1990!

"In addition to Jay Ungar's authorized solo edition as performed in the documentary series, this folio contains the touching Civil War era "Sullivan Ballou Letter" and Lincoln's famed Gettysburg Address."

Thanks to Lighter who has found that the U.S. Copyright Office asserts that the earliest Mel Bay publication of "Ashokan Farewell" was registered on July 6, 2010.

PS This wouldn't be the first Mudcat thread to be taken down after Jack Campin's outbursts.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 01:19 PM

On the off chance that anyone still cares, the U.S. Copyright Office asserts that the earliest Mel Bay publication of "Ashokan Farewell" was registered on July 6, 2010:


https://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=3&ti=1,3&Search%5FArg=ashokan%20farewell&Search%5FCode=TALL&CNT=25&PID=WObHGx

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: Johnny J
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 01:17 PM

Re the comments about "learning it from paper" at The SMG...

I first learned it there by ear from Angus Grant Junior in the early nineties. He told us the tune's history too and also about the Civil War film connection.

We would have been among the very first ALP students to play this tune and we all learned it by ear.
Angus always taught this way and didn't even hand out sheet music at his classes. Sometimes, one of his class members might transcribe it but that was as close as we got.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: Johnny J
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 12:47 PM

Hee, hee.
This is a fun thread. ;-))

I don't think Jack minds this tune too much except the change to C natural in the second part.
;-))

I don't know about paying the going rate but I'm very sure that Nigel would have obtained permission from the composer and ensured it would be OK to include the tune in his collection.

As I recall, it was very strict in the early days of The ALP and one of the reasons for focusing on "teaching by ear" was as much to do with copyright issues as being the so called "traditional way" to do things.
I even remember some tutors learning tunes themselves off by heart "from the dots" before teaching it to the students by ear. "Hand written" music was also another good trick.
;-)

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: Helen
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 12:22 PM

Guest, henryp, the "piece of shit" comment was made anonymously by GUEST Date: 11 Aug 24 - 07:40 PM.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 12:15 PM

henryp: https://www.melbay.com/Products/95056/ashokan-farewell.aspx

Does that look electronic? Can you read the date?

Now fuck off.

GUEST:
So no interpretive subtleties in this then here?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kZASM8OX7s

No idea, I couldn't watch it here even if I wanted to waste my time on sentimental fakery. From Steve Shaw's description after taking one for the team and actually watching it, I presume it isn't a straight video from a session like the Edinburgh or Ashokan ones, which were what I was talking about.

Anybody can add layers of interpretation to anything. And any sufficiently large group of fiddlers can turn any tune into a dogged expressionless routine. Slow airs performed en masse in sessions nearly always lose the whole point

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 11:46 AM

Beautiful Irish or Scottish airs sound lovely when played plainly, often with little or no accompaniment, when played in sessions or other informal settings. In the first playthrough in that video the "beautiful" melody was pulled to pieces (I was scratching my head in places), rescued in later playthroughs by greater or lesser ornate accompaniment. It's an arrangement, a performance, lovely I'm sure on a record. I'm at a loss to see how it can be regarded as even vaguely Scottish-sounding. A very nice construction of one of my least favourite tunes, I thought. All just opinion from me.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 11:28 AM

From Tattie Bogle; I was referring to when [Nigel Gatherer] first published it in his Session Tune books in 1999. Nigel says, “We’ve had contributions from world-famous musicians such as Jay Ungar, the illustrious American fiddler,……” Nigel further goes on to record his gratitude for Jay’s permission to publish it, and to say that “this beautiful air has captured the hearts and imagination of musicians from all around the world”.

Thanks for that. The Civil War was first broadcast to air on PBS in 1990. Nigel Gatherer dealt direct with Jay Ungar in 1999. This appears to conflict with Jack Campin's assertions about Mel Bay publishing Ashokan Farewell;

1. "Ashokan Farewell" was published by Mel Bay on 1 January 1983. Must have made Ungar a fair bit in that form, before the Civil War royalties started rolling in.
2. I don't have that print collection but I doubt it varies one little bit from what all the thousands of Ashokan fiddle camp participants played as their final number over the next 40 years.
3. I would expect that ALP/SMG paid the going rate to Mel Bay but I wasn't there to check.
4. There were reprints that referenced the TV series. There were a lot before that, and they were the ones I was talking about.
5. WorldCat lists far more different formats and arrangements for that piece of shit than I have the patience to sift through.

So Jack Campin has not found any entry on WorldCat to support his claim.
And Nigel Gatherer considers Ashokan Farewell a beautiful air, while Jack Campin does not.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 09:50 AM

it would have been safer for Nigel Gatherer to call his collection 'Tunes played in Scotland' -the way it's done in Ireland 'Songs Sung in Ireland'.

Such vagueness means you can include stuff from everywhere & they can't touch you for it, mate

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 06:57 AM

So no interpretive subtleties in this then here?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kZASM8OX7s
It's all in the dots?

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 06:42 AM

Thanks for the clarification. I've no quarrel with Nigel Gatherer. He has made a great contribution to keeping folk music alive - and what an appropriate name for a collector! But it is interesting that he has found a place for Ashokan Farewell in his Scottish Collection.

We still have not established when the sheet music for Ashokan Farewell was published. Jack Campin has been unable to find anything to support his claim that ""Ashokan Farewell" was published by Mel Bay on 1 January 1983. Must have made Ungar a fair bit in that form, before the Civil War royalties started rolling in."

I don't know why Jack thinks that the size of the royalties is relevant. And I don't know why he thinks that his more disagreeable posts contribute to the discussion, e.g. "WorldCat lists far more different formats and arrangements for that piece of shit than I have the patience to sift through."

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 05:57 AM

Henryp, Nigel’s various great collections have only appeared in much more recent times.
I was referring to when he first published it in his Session Tune books in 1999, which many ALP Scots Music Group students would have bought, myself included. It appears in Session Tunes Book 2. In the introduction to the book, Nigel says:
“The second collection of session tunes is slightly different from the first booklet. As well as the standard tunes popular in sessions, we are fortunate to be able to include some more recent compositions. We’ve had contributions from world-famous musicians such as Jay Ungar, the illustrious American fiddler,……”
And at the back of the book, he has further notes, including details of how the tune came about, as detailed in other posts above, the famous quote from Ungar himself - “he sometimes introduces it as -a Scottish lament written by a Jewish guy from the Bronx -…. (See also RA’s comment!)
Nigel further goes on to record his gratitude for Jay’s permission to publish it, and to say that “this beautiful air has captured the hearts and imagination of musicians from all around the world”.
Why am I telling you all this? Just felt the need to clarify that Nigel knows what he’s talking about, and gave all the correct details in his FIRST publication of the tune. What he has put on his website and into his various collections since is fine by me and many others who use this valuable resource.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,Jim McLean
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 04:23 AM

To my ear, it sounds like a play on the Rose of Tralee.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: meself
Date: 12 Aug 24 - 05:18 PM

"The tune was not intended to have interpretive subtleties." Should anyone care about that? On the odd occasion I find myself having a go at it - always with some external prompt; it's not a favourite of mine - I give it what I think could charitably be characterized as "interpretive subtleties"- or less charitably as "interpretive stumblings", I suppose .....

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 12 Aug 24 - 05:10 PM

The copyright date of the piece (1983) is not necessarily the date of the sheet music publication - especially when that publication references Ken Burns's "The Civil War.'

There were reprints that referenced the TV series. There were a lot before that, and they were the ones I was talking about. You can just go on Abe or Ebay and buy one if you want. Hint, this was published a bit before Keira Knightley could feature on the cover:

Pride and Prejudice

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 12 Aug 24 - 02:43 PM

GUEST, RA; That's a splendid sentiment! Alas, not all the messages posted on this thread are as charitable;

WorldCat lists far more different formats and arrangements for that piece of shit than I have the patience to sift through.

It was written to be played en masse by a fiddle school (as their closing number).

The tune was not intended to have interpretive subtleties.

I have an ambition to play it as a jig to get it over with faster but haven't figured out how yet.

"Ashokan Farewell" was published by Mel Bay on 1 January 1983. Must have made Ungar a fair bit in that form, before the Civil War royalties started rolling in.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 12 Aug 24 - 12:53 PM

Well, maybe it's been accepted as Scottish now! We're not an ethnonationalist state, after all - all who make their home here are Scots.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 12 Aug 24 - 09:09 AM

henryp; But did they not recognise that it wasn't actually a Scots tune?

Tattie Bogle; Correction 1: many people who attend(ed) Scots Music Group got the dots for Ashokan Farewell from one of their tutors’ books.
Nigel Gatherer sought permission from Jay Ungar to publish the score before printing it in said book. So they will know it is not a Scottish tune.

Nigel Gatherer has compiled a large collection of American Music with seven different sections. But Nigel must have thought it more appropriate
to put Ashokan Farewell in The Scottish Collection in the section Airs & Song Airs;

Ashokan Farewell slow air/lament
        
This tune was composed by Jay Ungar in the style, he has said, of a Scottish lament, and descriptive
of his "sense of loss and longing" at the end of one of the Ashokan Music & Dance Camps.

This set is part of the following collections: Nigel Gatherer's Scottish Collection.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Aug 24 - 07:36 AM

One last time:

The copyright date of the piece (1983) is not necessarily the date of the sheet music publication - especially when that publication references Ken Burns's "The Civil War.'

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 12 Aug 24 - 04:56 AM

henryp; But did they not recognise that it wasn't actually a Scots tune?

Jack Campin; They've never confined themselves to Scots material. Look at Nigel Gatherer's site, he included lots of (better) Americana early on.

Nigel Gatherer's wonderful collection does indeed have a large number of tunes under the heading American Music but, oddly, Ashokan Farewell is included in The Scottish Collection under Airs & Song Airs.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 12 Aug 24 - 03:43 AM

Correction 1: many people who attend(ed) Scots Music Group got the dots for Ashokan Farewell from one of their tutors’ books. Nigel Gatherer sought permission from Jay Ungar to publish the score before printing it in said book. So they will know it is not a Scottish tune.
Correction 2: “some” or even “a few” (not “a lot”) of people have not memorised the tune in 40 years, but vast numbers have. I, for one, have been playing it from memory for years: the only time I use the dots is when playing the very nice harmony part that another tutor wrote.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 11 Aug 24 - 08:07 PM

It was played in Edinburgh sessions long before the Civil War series came out. Those session players got it on paper from the Scots Music Group (SMG) of the Gorgie-Dalry Adult Learning Project (ALP).

So now we know! That's where Jay Ungar gained those lucrative early royalties from - the Scots Music Group of the Gorgie-Dalry Adult Learning Project!

Local folk music organizations the world over reproduce stuff from commercial publishers all the time.   I would expect that ALP/SMG paid the going rate to Mel Bay but I wasn't there to check. They often explicitly credit copyright holders.


But did they not recognise that it wasn't actually a Scots tune?

They've never confined themselves to Scots material. Look at Nigel Gatherer's site, he included lots of (better) Americana early on.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 11 Aug 24 - 07:51 PM

A lot of those players are still reading it from the books having not managed to memorize it in nearly 40 years.
That may be a sign of the way they were taught.

Sort of. It's a sign of how the organization has failed to meet its original objectives. If you visit Edinburgh, PM me and you can see for yourself what's gone wrong. They aren't the only one, but it didn't need to happen.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 24 - 07:40 PM

The WorldCat entry is for an ebook. They didn't exist in 1983.

The 1983 copyright date of the tune is clearly not the same as the date of the Mel Bay publication.

WorldCat lists far more different formats and arrangements for that piece of shit than I have the patience to sift through. The 1983 date is the copyright date for all of them, be it print, electronic, braille or translated into Amharic. Look for sites that sell sheet music and you will immediately come across printed ones with the 1983 publication date.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 11 Aug 24 - 06:37 AM

> A lot of those players are still reading it from their
> books having not managed to memorize it in nearly 40 years.

That may be a sign of the way they were taught. As I've said elsewhere, my godmother used to play the piano for school assemblies; whenever I lamented that I couldn't sight-read, she complained that if a hymn had four verses, she had to sight-read it four times.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 11 Aug 24 - 02:37 AM

From: GUEST,Jack Campin Date: 09 Aug 24 - 08:49 PM: "Ashokan Farewell" was published by Mel Bay on 1 January 1983. Must have made Ungar a fair bit in that form, before the Civil War royalties started rolling in.

From: GUEST Date: 10 Aug 24 - 08:19 PM; It was played in Edinburgh sessions long before the Civil War series came out. Those session players got it on paper from the Scots Music Group (SMG) of the Gorgie-Dalry Adult Learning Project (ALP). A lot of those players are still reading it from their books having not managed to memorize it in nearly 40 years.

So now we know! That's where Jay Ungar gained those lucrative early royalties from - the Scots Music Group of the Gorgie-Dalry Adult Learning Project! But did they not recognise that it wasn't actually a Scots tune?

Many folk musicians are poorly rewarded financially for their work. I am therefore very pleased to learn that Jay Ungar has earned both respect and financial rewards for all his efforts to preserve and promote folk arts.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: Lighter
Date: 10 Aug 24 - 08:52 PM

The WorldCat entry is for an ebook. They didn't exist in 1983.

The 1983 copyright date of the tune is clearly not the same as the date of the Mel Bay publication.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 24 - 08:19 PM

Mel Bay themselves say Ungar wrote it in 1982:

https://www.melbay.com/Author/Default.aspx?AuthorId=37874

WorldCat lists the publication date by Mel Bay as 1983. It can't have been in purely oral circulation for more than a few months and I suspect the period is more likely to have been measured in hours before he wrote it down.

It was played in Edinburgh sessions long before the Civil War series came out. Those session players got it on paper from the Scots Music Group (SMG) of the Gorgie-Dalry Adult Learning Project (ALP). A lot of those players are still reading it from their books having not managed to memorize it in nearly 40 years.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: Lighter
Date: 10 Aug 24 - 03:18 PM

The "issue" isn't the copyright date. It's the publication date of the sheet music, which freezes the tune.

Before that, people could have learned the tune only by ear, either from the Fiddle Fever recording, from Jay Ungar in person, or at one or more removes from someone who'd learned it from him.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: Reinhard
Date: 10 Aug 24 - 01:38 PM

The Mel Bay Publications website says "Date Published: 1/1/1983" too, so Amazon may have got the date from that. But the actual music sheet says "©Copyright 1983 by Swinging Door Music / This arrangement ©Copyright 1992 by Swinging Door Music"

And the Mel Bay publication comprises not only the Ashokan Farewell sheet music but also the Civil War era "Sullivan Ballou Letter" and Lincoln's Gettysburg Address. I can't believe that this combination would have been offered for sale seven years before the Civil War TV documentation.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: DaveRo
Date: 10 Aug 24 - 12:56 PM

It appeared on the 1984 LP 'Waltz Of The Wind' by 'Fiddle Fever', which included Jay Ungar and Molly Mason:
https://www.discogs.com/release/6522303-Fiddle-Fever-Waltz-Of-The-Wind
So 1983 is a very plausible copyright date - i.e. the date when Ungar or his agent made the copyright deposit.

The first printed sheet music may have followed years later, when The Civil War popularised it. Perhaps he xeroxed a few dozen copies for his students in the '80s. Perhaps they played by ear.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: Lighter
Date: 10 Aug 24 - 11:05 AM

In my experience, Amazon publication dates often state "Jan. 1" when they don't know the precise day of the year.

But year 1983 for the Mel Bay sheet music on Amazon may be incorrect. The cover says, "Theme from the Soundtrack of the PBS Series 'The Civil War,' a Film by Ken Burns....Also includes the Sullivan Ballou letter...."

If there was an earlier 1983 printing, without the "Civil War" material, I haven't located it.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Aug 24 - 07:45 AM

You can buy the sheet music from Amazon, who clearly state that the publication date was Jan 1 1983.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 10 Aug 24 - 02:47 AM

Jay Ungar has provided us with the story behind this waltz, mainly performed by solo violin, with guitar and bass accompaniment: “Ashokan Farewell was named for Ashokan, a camp in the Catskill Mountains not far from Woodstock, New York. It’s the place where Molly Mason and I have run the Ashokan Fiddle & Dance Camps for adults and families since 1980. Ashokan is the name of a town, most of which is now under a very beautiful and magical body of water called the Ashokan Reservoir...

“I composed Ashokan Farewell in 1982 shortly after our Ashokan Fiddle & Dance Camps had come to an end for the season. I was feeling a great sense of loss and longing for the music, the dancing and the community of people that had developed at Ashokan that summer. I was having trouble making the transition from a secluded woodland camp with a small group of people who needed little excuse to celebrate the joy of living, back to life as usual, with traffic, newscasts, telephones and impersonal relationships. By the time the tune took form, I was in tears. I kept it to myself for months, unable to fully understand the emotions that welled up whenever I played it. I had no idea that this simple tune could affect others in the same way.

“Ashokan Farewell was written in the style of a Scottish lament. I sometimes introduce it as, ‘a Scottish lament written by a Jewish guy from the Bronx.’ I lived in the Bronx until the age of sixteen.” - Program Note by Foothill Symphonic Winds concert program, 8 March 2015

This gorgeous melody became famous as part of the soundtrack to the television mini-series The Civil War. Composed by Jay Ungar for solo fiddle, the piece works perfectly for concert band. - Program Note from publisher

Jack Campin writes; "Ashokan Farewell" was published by Mel Bay on 1 January 1983. Must have made Ungar a fair bit in that form, before the Civil War royalties started rolling in. I don't have that print collection but I doubt it varies one little bit from what all the thousands of Ashokan fiddle camp participants played as their final number over the next 40 years.

1 January 1983? Are you sure, Jack? This doesn't ring true to me. And, as you say, you don't have that print collection. I'm not surprised! Jay Ungar wrote the tune after the summer of 1982, and says he kept the tune to himself for months. The tune could not possibly have been widely known by January 1983. I don't see how Mel Bay could have published it then. In that case, it would be wrong to say that the royalties started rolling in then too.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 10 Aug 24 - 01:38 AM

Ruth [Ungar], before she and Mike performed the tune, talked a little about it, how it paid for her way through university and how her dad is still surprised after all these years with its success. She talked about meeting a street performer in Scotland and how performing Ashokan Farewell on his fiddle always brought the best money. “My dad would be so pleased,” she said. [Stereo Stories by Luke R Davies October 2019]

Filmmaker Ken Burns used it in two of his documentary films: Huey Long (1985), and The Civil War (1990), which features the original recording by Fiddle Fever. In the UK, Classic FM broadcast it frequently. In 2013, the performance by solo violinist Major John Perkins of The Band of Her Majesty's Royal Marines was voted no. 36 in Classic FM's (UK) Hall of Fame.

The royalties come from sheet music sales and recording and performance rights, and we can only guess which are greater. Nor can we be sure whether more musicians have learned the tune by ear or from the printed page. But my guess is that most have learned it by ear.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 09 Aug 24 - 08:49 PM

"Ashokan Farewell" was published by Mel Bay on 1 January 1983. Must have made Ungar a fair bit in that form, before the Civil War royalties started rolling in. I don't have that print collection but I doubt it varies one little bit from what all the thousands of Ashokan fiddle camp participants played as their final number over the next 40 years.

Print doesn't have to be used that way. Almost all the standard ceilidh band repertoire got into it from a paper source; the selection of good tunes was usually very quick, folk processing didn't come into it. Think about "Staten Island"; Desert Dancer and I had a discussion about it here where we pinned down its origin to the aftermath of the Battle of Long Island in 1776. It had to have been created for a dance assembly in New York celebrating the British triumph (which later became one of history's greatest examples of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory). Those repeated C naturals are British cannon shots smashing into the American forces (play them with feeling). That tune was in print in the second volume of Aird's collection in Glasgow in the very early 1780s. It was an immediate success and has been played pretty close to the way Aird had it ever since. There was no time for it to get refined by an extended process of oral transmission: some danceband leader in NYC thought it up, somebody passed on to Aird in a notebook with the regimental marches used in the battle and Aird just engraved the whole lot with zero effort at arrangement. It got more variation than Ashokan Farewell (somebody tried to lose the C naturals and retitle it; posterity told them to get stuffed) but even with no known composer shepherding it along the way Ungar does, it stuck.

One example of a tune that did follow Steve's model: "The Dashing White Sergeant". If you look up Henry Bishop's original song you will notice (a) it's rather crap and (b) nobody could ever dance a reel to it. I don't know how it got into its modern form (as in Kerr, late 1870s) but the change was drastic and much for the better.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Aug 24 - 05:47 PM

Thing is, you're talking about "arrangements." If you play an arrangement, you play the notes on the page and your ability as an instrumentalist to put your interpretation on the music has all but disappeared. If you play in a big bunch of unison players, likewise. As far as I can make out, this was Jack's take, more or less. That doesn't take away from the fact that you can do what you like with the tune if you're playing it solo in or in a very tight agreement with one or two others. But how dull. And if you do it in a session it becomes a mess. Doing your own thing in traditional tune-playing, with reactive listening to your fellow sessioneers, is a time-honoured, collaborative, ego-free and fun process. No room for predetermined arrangements, less still, dots.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 09 Aug 24 - 09:12 AM

Jack Campin; Whatever makes you think that Ashokan Farewell was not intended to have interpretive subtleties? When did Jay Ungar say that? And I've never heard before that it was written to be played en masse by a fiddle school (as their closing number). What makes you think it was?

Jay Ungar describes the song as coming out of "a sense of loss and longing" after the annual Ashokan Music & Dance Camps ended. Before its use as the television series theme, "Ashokan Farewell" was recorded on Waltz of the Wind, the second album by the band Fiddle Fever (1984). The musicians included Ungar and Mason.

Jay Ungar and Molly Mason included it on their album Harvest Home, released in 1999. Jay Ungar (fiddle) & Molly Mason (guitar, piano) play it on Fiddle Hell Online Jam #27 July 12 2020; the focus is on "Favorite Tunes from the Ashokan Camps" (which they have founded and have run for 40 years). Another arrangement, featuring Ungar, Mason, and their family band, is performed with two violins, an acoustic guitar, and a banjo, with the piece beginning with a solo violin. Then there is the performance on Transatlantic Sessions.

All these performances, with a certain amount of expressive refinement, presumably give some indication of how Jay Ungar imagined that his tune might be played.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Aug 24 - 08:12 AM

When it comes to traditional Irish music (and Scottish and Northumbrian too), playing from dots doesn't work. If you have 500 or 1000 tunes under your belt already that you've learned by ear, then maybe, just maybe, you can fast-track the learning of a new tune from dots. Otherwise, it's anathema. There will be those of us here (me included) who have sat with pretty decent musicians used to playing music from other genres requiring a more formal approach who try to play "our stuff" from dots who simply don't get it. As the estimable Alan Ng said on his website (forgive a possible slight misquote), learn it by ear and learn it right.

As for Ashokan Farewell, it's not a traditional tune but that doesn't mean you can't meddle around with it if you're playing the melody on your own. But that isn't exactly the folk process at work. Every time I've heard it played by a bunch of people trying to do their own thing with it, it's been a bit of a mess. Maybe in a hundred years' time it'll evolve nicely. I doubt it.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 24 - 06:09 AM

GUEST, I was describing how the tune is actually played, and how it always has been played. When it's done by massed fiddles it makes absolutely no difference whether they're reading from a score or playing from memory. No individual expression gets through. And Ungar wrote it to be played by massed fiddles.

I have an ambition to play it as a jig to get it over with faster but haven't figured out how yet.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 09 Aug 24 - 06:06 AM

Jack Campin "The tune was not intended to have interpretive subtleties. It was written to be played en masse by a fiddle school (as their closing number). Expressive refinement doesn't happen when there are 20 or 30 people playing in unison. There can't be anything there that isn't in the notation."

I don't think Jack is correct here. He may dismiss it as a tune to be played en masse by a fiddle school - is that such a bad thing? But that doesn't mean it was deliberately written as one. As we have seen, it can lend itself to many different performances.