 sj |
||
|
||
Origins of traditional songs
|
|
|
Subject: Origins of traditional songs From: The Sandman Date: 09 Aug 24 - 03:06 AM I am of the opinion, the old songs were composed by both Broadside writers and ordinary people who did not do it for money making reasons. |
|
Subject: RE: Origins of traditional songs From: The Sandman Date: 09 Aug 24 - 08:52 AM The 0riginal composition of a song may go back to an individual or group of them, amateur,or professional. Here is an example of a song composed 70 years ago locally by am amateur who did not the song for monetary gain https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVDlRyqXVbw |
|
Subject: RE: Origins of traditional songs From: Nick Dow Date: 09 Aug 24 - 09:29 AM The broadside hacks composed re-wrote and republished existing and new songs purely for money. It was their bread and butter. They took songs from each other and sold the street literature through an army of street screamers who were mostly homeless and exploited to the point of starvation. The folk were not as illiterate as the Edwardian folklorists would have us believe, and kept the song sheets for years. They crop up to this day. Yes, occasionally the pot poet might push his glass to one side and compose a song of the quality of 'The Dark Eyed Sailor'. The profit motive what ever it's morality had the beneficial effect of re-enforcing an already existing tradition with the working classes and sometimes the more affluent. The tunes are a more difficult subject to approach, and a tune may be adapted from the Music Hall the Pleasure Garden, or that which we refer to as art music. Occasionally a completely unique tune might be composed, but very rarely. Traditional songs do not exist in a vacuum, but this does not devalue them in any way. Sing on! |
|
Subject: RE: Origins of traditional songs From: GUEST,Derrick Date: 09 Aug 24 - 10:16 AM The songs we now call traditional were composed by people of all classes and professions. The good ones were the ones that survived to enter the repertoire of singers, professional and amateur alike. Tradition is an action,song or other ritual which is performed at certain times of year or in particular circumstances. All classes have traditions not just the everyday working classes. |
|
Subject: RE: Origins of traditional songs From: Bill D Date: 09 Aug 24 - 10:22 AM ..".... composed by both Broadside writers and ordinary people who did not do it for money making reasons. " True, but trivial. Almost a tautology. Without a definition of 'old', it's not useful. People have created song-like noises since they became human, and the more interesting noises were copied and added to until recognizable patterns developed. Critics, collectors and researchers are a relatively new part of the process and limited by very sparse written records. Still, the desire to know will always make some of us try to trace origins. Folk process. |
|
Subject: RE: Origins of traditional songs From: GUEST,paperback Date: 09 Aug 24 - 08:29 PM Very touching song, sandman, sung with heart. I've been following the plight of the Irish lately and it has softened my heart. Concerning traditional songs - from what I have gathered in mudcat - local folk make them, and sing them, but really shouldn't discuss them. No credentials you know Keep well |
|
Subject: RE: Origins of traditional songs From: GUEST,Bothy Boy Date: 10 Aug 24 - 02:53 AM Bothy ballads were composed by Scottish farmorkers and not learned from Broadside hacks.That has always been my understanding. |
|
Subject: RE: Origins of traditional songs From: Vic Smith Date: 10 Aug 24 - 07:50 AM The word "hack" is very frequently used behind words relating to the composers of ephermeral street literature; it has occurred more than once in this thread already. I find it particularly unhelpful. Even when the prose on these sheets is little better than drivel, which is not infrequent, there is often much in them that is interesting to students of history, poetry, sociology and linguistics, amongst others. |
|
Subject: RE: Origins of traditional songs From: GUEST,The Sandman Date: 10 Aug 24 - 12:27 PM Vic, i agree with you, i was using terminology that was used by Steve Gardham on facebook and i agree it is inappropriate. To Continue imo It beggars belief if anyone thinks ordinary people in Ireland and Scotland were any different from ordinary people in England when it comes to composing songs, next point, where did the tradtional songs come from that were written prior to the advent of the printing presses, perhaps ordinary people as well as troubadours and court musicians also composed some of the songs , to say that 95percent of trd songs, were the result OF broadside COMPOSERS, also to suggest that only 5 percent of the English traditional repertoire dates from PRE printing presses is unproven . Also it is well documented that ordinary people particularly fisherfolk travelled between Scotland Ireland and England Passing on songs. I know someone who collected songs from Harry Cox who was told[ by Harry] that he learned a song by ear from an itinerant irish farm labourer, a considerable number of traditional singers[Irish Scottish and English] were very good at picking up melodies and words by ear QUICKLY. as an aside,I have noticed how good older people who are catholics[ scottish english and irish] are, at remembering long stories words and learning by ear |
|
Subject: RE: Origins of traditional songs From: Steve Gardham Date: 10 Aug 24 - 05:32 PM Dick, you will find the only time I use the word 'hacks' is when quoting you-know-who. I usually call them ballad writers or similar. What you have posted there and here is a jumbled mess of misunderstandings. If you are going to use my name have the courtesy to quote me correctly. I have never said anywhere that 5% of our songs date from pre-printing presses. If anyone wants to know what I have said on these matters it is posted accurately on numerous threads here. |
|
Subject: RE: Origins of traditional songs From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 10 Aug 24 - 06:04 PM IF you are serious ... PAUL SLADE Has three meticulous books (3) Gallows Ballads Black Swan Blues Unprepared to Die Sincerely, Gargoyle First paragraphs of "Gallows" will reveal how silly this thread is ... you are a troll ... and this thread should move ... to the "lower kingdom." |
|
Subject: RE: Origins of traditional songs From: Doug Chadwick Date: 10 Aug 24 - 06:31 PM ....... i was using terminology ....... To Continue.... Just so as I can keep track of the conversation, I take it that 'GUEST,Bothy Boy' and 'GUEST,The Sandman' are one and the same. DC
|
|
Subject: RE: Origins of traditional songs From: The Sandman Date: 10 Aug 24 - 08:35 PM quote steve gardham, below What I have always said is that approx. 90% of the canon of English traditional songs have their earliest extant version on printed street literature or similar. that's a FACT. My OPINION, after 50 years of studying the relationship between print and oral tradition and hundreds of individual songs, is that 95% of them originated in this way. imo , an incorrect statement and a half truth, it appears to ignore any songs that were in existence before printing presses that were either composed by troubadours or court musicians or any other people. my opinion is that traditional songs were composed and sung before the advent of printing presses, and that the present day trad repertoire is a mixture of both songs composed by broadside writers and by people who were not broadside writers, there is evidence that indicates songs in Scotland were composed and known as botHy ballads, I find the idea that England was somehow different from ireland and scotland in that respect particularly as there was a lot of travel between the 3 countries an over simplistic argument. Do you seriously think that fishermen travelling between the 3 countries and travelling farm workers who were english did not make up songs because they were English, whilst their Scottish and Irish counterparts did, IMO your line of argument is highly flawed . |
|
Subject: RE: Origins of traditional songs From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 10 Aug 24 - 10:37 PM And so .... The Hebrew Psalms ? You continue to "redefine" the terms of your premise. Sincerely, Gargoyle I refuse to get into a pissing contest with a skunk. Goodbye |
|
Subject: RE: Origins of traditional songs From: Steve Gardham Date: 11 Aug 24 - 03:38 AM The bothy ballads are a localised phenomenon rarely found in other parts of these isles. They are not that numerous anyway unless you count those written by known authors in the 20th century. And Ord's 'Bothy Ballads' actually comprises songs sung in the bothies, most of which are part of the national corpus anyway, and not specific bothy ballads. Dick, stop trolling or you will get your fingers burnt again! |
|
Subject: RE: Origins of traditional songs From: The Sandman Date: 11 Aug 24 - 03:58 AM The idea that there were no songs being composed and sung before the advent of the printing presses is doubtful. If that was the case there would not have been the demand that the broadside sellers and printers decided to exploit. The traditional songs did not suddenly start with the advent of the printing presses and broadside composers, that imo is extremely unlikely. Then perhaps we should look at Wales, Songs in the welsh language do not appear to have been collected by Sharp and co, yet there must have been those songs and they are highly unlikely to have been written by english broadsisde composers, the same applies to irish language songs [ possibly written by hedge poets and ordinary people all this tends to reinforce my original post quote 'I am of the opinion, the old songs were composed by both Broadside writers and ordinary people who did not do it for money making reasons' |
|
Subject: RE: Origins of traditional songs From: The Sandman Date: 11 Aug 24 - 05:27 AM an itersting slightly off topic point here a fair proportion of songs collcted by collectors like sharp remain unsung,in the uk and irish folk revival, neither are they sung at football matches or rugby matches[ which would make them tradtional songs according to the 1954 definition, some of them are only looked at in books, by researchers like steve gardham, they sadly become akin to museum exhibits |
|
Subject: RE: Origins of traditional songs From: Doug Chadwick Date: 11 Aug 24 - 10:46 AM I am of the opinion, the old songs were composed by both Broadside writers and ordinary people who did not do it for money making reasons Once you have included all the people who want to make money from an activity and all the people who don't care about making money from that same activity, you have covered all the people who are involved. What are we discussing? DC |
|
Subject: RE: Origins of traditional songs From: GUEST,Keith Price Date: 11 Aug 24 - 12:00 PM HACK ! That's not strictly accurate Steve. In your article 'Broadside Ballads' for The Traditional Song Forum, the one time you refer to broadside writers, you call them 'hacks' |
|
Subject: RE: Origins of traditional songs From: The Sandman Date: 11 Aug 24 - 12:30 PM Doug, Iam trying to discuss something steve gardham said here quote steve gardham, below What I have always said is that approx. 90% of the canon of English traditional songs have their earliest extant version on printed street literature or similar. that's a FACT. My OPINION, after 50 years of studying the relationship between print and oral tradition and hundreds of individual songs, is that 95% of them originated in this way. " my opinion, is that this is inaccurate, steve has yet to provide evidence for what he calls facts |
|
Subject: RE: Origins of traditional songs From: Steve Gardham Date: 11 Aug 24 - 02:34 PM Let me have your email by pm, Dick, and you can have a copy of the database. Those researchers who have taken an interest already have a copy. Re 'hacks' Note, the use of inverted commas. At the time that article was written that was the derogatory term used by most writers on the subject. I no longer use the term, other than to quote others who do. Re songs collected by Sharp et al in the first revival, you are sadly out of touch, Dick. You sing plenty of them yourself. The corpus collected in England from about 1890 to 1920 differs very little from what has been collected and published since WWII. |
|
Subject: RE: Origins of traditional songs From: The Sandman Date: 12 Aug 24 - 03:50 AM I think it most likely that the printing presses started printing broadsides and the broadside writers started composing because there was a demand, which suggests to me, that people had been making up songs before the arrival of the printing presses. which reinforcec My statement that the tradtional repertoire consists of songs that were composed BOTH BY Broadside writers and ordinary people who made up songs before the arrival of the printing presses |
|
Subject: RE: Origins of traditional songs From: GUEST,Derrick Date: 12 Aug 24 - 05:14 AM So to sum up the discussion. Songs have been composed since mankind started singing. People of all social classes composed them. People like broad sheet publishers wrote songs for gain and republished songs written by other people. The fact that many songs appear throughout the country in very similar forms shows that the published broad sheets had an influence on the repertoire of singers. |
|
Subject: RE: Origins of traditional songs From: GUEST Date: 12 Aug 24 - 07:14 AM Music publishing not only had an effect on singers repertoires but political beliefs, I think. My grandmother and her sister saved up to buy a piano which means you buy sheet music. My point is Music Publishers are not at a lost understanding the power of music and this effects which songs are sung, played or heard. See, both of those girls changed their names, moved to the city, and became suffragettes voting FDR while husbands voted Willkie which probably would've never happened if it weren't for that piano:/ On the other hand our granddaughter is saving up for a PlayStation. Funny old world, init? |
|
Subject: RE: Origins of traditional songs From: GUEST Date: 12 Aug 24 - 07:15 AM paperback^ |
|
Subject: RE: Origins of traditional songs From: The Sandman Date: 12 Aug 24 - 07:43 AM The fact that many songs appear throughout the country in very similar forms shows that the published broad sheets had an influence on the repertoire of singers.quote correct but only after a certain period and the advent of broadsheets, older sons were composed by ordinary people and not for monetary gain, more latterly people have composed their own songsgenerally for pleasure, the small proprtion of people that compose songs now for money are pop writers like goffin king. |
|
Subject: RE: Origins of traditional songs From: GUEST,Derrick Date: 12 Aug 24 - 09:17 AM Quote The Sandman Date: 12 Aug 24 - 07:43 AM The fact that many songs appear throughout the country in very similar forms shows that the published broad sheets had an influence on the repertoire of singers.quote correct but only after a certain period and the advent of broadsheets, older sons were composed by ordinary people and not for monetary gain, more latterly people have composed their own songsgenerally for pleasure, the small proprtion of people that compose songs now for money are pop writers like goffin king.End quote Until broad sheets were invented they obviously had no influence on anything. Most people compose songs for their own pleasure or to pass social or political comment.not for financial gain . there were however people who wrote songs for gain such as minstrels and the like before the broad sheet writers. of The music scene today, traditional and pop alike, is the result of thousands of years of input from many sources and people. |
|
Subject: RE: Origins of traditional songs From: GUEST,Nick Dow Date: 12 Aug 24 - 12:12 PM I think a chicken or egg argument about which came first the song or the street literature is doomed, and will result in no useful conclusion. It's about as useless as the 'Folk didn't make Folk' argument we have seen here before. The original thread suggested that monetary gain was not a driving force behind the composition of the old songs. 'The Old songs' is a term that means absolutely nothing at all. How old? Where from? etc. I agree with the objective view that the majority of the repertoire of songs collected from traditional singers and presented as folk songs by the revival (first or second) originated as street literature and were adapted and improved subsequently. The subjective 'Merrie England' view where all musical motives are free from contamination by monetary gain or any other motive that does not fit the criteria, has no merit in my opinion. It's another "what is folk" thread that was never intended to do anything but start a squabble. ---mudelf |
| Share Thread: |