Tech: obscure characters app native to Win10+

Subject: Tech: obscure characters app native to Win10+
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Aug 24 - 03:59 AM

OK some people know but if you didn't - and want emojis, or characters not on or shortcut from the keyboard try:

"Windows Key" and "."

My HP laptop doesn't have "|" which for a company famed for its tech prowess is unbelievable - | is used in programming like JavaScript etc a lot.
Even the ubiquitous file path delimiter "\" is a 3 key combo! I do regret choosing HP.

though many emojis may not render on the 'Cat - even if they "preview" ??

Subject: RE: Tech: obscure characters app native to Win10+
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Aug 24 - 04:00 AM

?? was posted as an emoji BTW

Subject: RE: Tech: obscure characters app native to Win10+
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 30 Aug 24 - 01:01 PM

I'll give it a try: 😀

Subject: RE: Tech: obscure characters app native to Win10+
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 30 Aug 24 - 01:02 PM

Works on my browser.

Subject: RE: Tech: obscure characters app native to Win10+
From: Reinhard
Date: 30 Aug 24 - 01:39 PM

This is not necessarily the fault of HP but buying the laptop with an unsuitable keyboard layout. Which one does your HP laptop have, Mr Red? They should be available in different flavours. The English and American keyboard layout usually have |\[]{} and are well suited for programming but the German layout, for example, omits these characters to make room for the umlaut characters. Our administrative staff therefore prefers the Geman keyboard layout and our development staff the American variant.

Subject: RE: Tech: obscure characters app native to Win10+
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Aug 24 - 02:11 PM

Quite often on laptops in addition to Control and Shift and Alt there are color coded keys for extra functions, so you use one of those and then can get a new set of symbols to choose from.

I use a wide and heavy keyboard from Unicomp that emulates the IBM Selectric typewriter keyboard. It has the symbols you seem to be missing: | and \ and possibly ~ or `. One thing I never use is the key a next to the right alt key that replaces a mouse right click anywhere on the desktop or within a document or browser to get a dialog box. This keyboard is so well-made that repeated use of particular keys doesn't wear off the symbol, though those keys are more polished than the rest.

You can use another keyboard with your laptop, either a USB one to plug in or if it's new enough and set up there are Bluetooth devices. My keyboard has no emojis, I use html if I need symbols. I tried the Windows + . and see the choices (which, as noted, won't display on Mudcat. Gotta do html or ascii code for those.)

Subject: RE: Tech: obscure characters app native to Win10+
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Aug 24 - 04:16 PM

Is their alternate keyboard setting that gives those characters. The key caps will be wrong but most of the other characters probably won't move.
There maybe be a key combination that switches quickly between two layouts - not a thing hit by accident!

Subject: RE: Tech: obscure characters app native to Win10+
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Aug 24 - 06:02 PM

I haven't found a keyboard switch setting for Win 10/HP - it is definitely the UK config because I can type £ (on my laptop). There are apps you can install, but I haven't, for several reasons. I have, over the years looked into external programmable keypads but not sure if the program wouldn't involve that app. Then there is the hassle of hauling that around.

My keyboard has several keys with multiple characters embossed and accessible via key combos see below. It makes for a smaller keyboard. And it is thinner which really sucks with my typing.

eg

` ¬ ¦ the latter character looks like a | but just isn't. Do you think I could get them on "trades description act"? (UK law).

|| is used for logical "or" in JavaScript and by inference in Java I assume - maybe | for bitwise OR

BTW some smiley faces work on the 'Cat. What I tried to post was the finger to thumb OK symbol which has Unicode number(s): �� - not only too high but two numbers and I had to use my HTML skills to make the hash codes display as has codes.

Subject: RE: Tech: obscure characters app native to Win10+
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Aug 24 - 06:13 PM

Another annoying quirk is my MS Surface Pro that for the same misleading key/embossing - results with `¬ and no ¦
but has a short shift key and adjacent extra key that is embossed ¦ but displays a |?

Go figure!

(goes away & asks again the internet for the swictcheroo setting, without much conviction)

Subject: RE: Tech: obscure characters app native to Win10+
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 30 Aug 24 - 06:22 PM

Emojis: in Mudcat HTML they work alright; use the method I used above, with a single number, not with surrogates. For word processors, copy and paste them from the Mudcat Preview 😉.

How to change the keyboard layout? The following is courtesy of ChatGPT:

Yes, it’s possible to create a custom keyboard layout where only one key is changed. Here’s how he can do it:

    Download Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator (MKLC): This is a free tool from Microsoft that allows you to create custom keyboard layouts. You can download it from the Microsoft website.

    Install and Open MKLC: Follow the installation instructions and open the program.

    Load Existing Layout: Go to File > Load Existing Keyboard and select the UK layout.

    Modify the Key: Click on the key you want to change (e.g., the key you want to assign the ** or | symbol to). A dialog box will appear where you can enter the new character.

    Save the Layout: Once you’ve made your changes, go to Project > Save Source File As to save your custom layout.

    Build the Layout: Go to Project > Build DLL and Setup Package. This will create an installer for your custom layout.

    Install the Custom Layout: Run the installer that was created in the previous step to install your new custom keyboard layout.

    Switch to the Custom Layout: Use the same methods as before (Alt + Shift or Windows + Spacebar) to switch to your custom layout.

Subject: RE: Tech: obscure characters app native to Win10+
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Aug 24 - 11:56 PM

I wouldn't trust ChatGPT as far as I could throw that keyboard. How about a non-AI answer?

Subject: RE: Tech: obscure characters app native to Win10+
From: DaveRo
Date: 31 Aug 24 - 02:55 AM

Solid vertical bar versus broken bar

Are you still using an antediluvian version of Firefox on that HP laptop, Mr Red? What about the Surface Pro?

I could have included the ability to post emoji codes in my Browser Tools addon, but I didn't want to encourage it ;) So only up to Unicode u+26FF.

Stilly River Sage wrote: One thing I never use is the key a next to the right alt key that replaces a mouse right click anywhere on the desktop ...

Usually called the Menu Key. Me neither.

In January 2024, Microsoft announced a Microsoft Copilot key that would replace the menu key on devices promoted as "AI PCs" - later branded as "Copilot Plus" (Ref 1, Ref 2)

Subject: RE: Tech: obscure characters app native to Win10+
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 31 Aug 24 - 04:22 AM

Stilly River Sage: Of course one must never trust ChatGPT, neither any (self-declared) expert – which unfortunately I am not. Both can be very helpful in the best case, but never replace one's own research and judgement.

As for emojis, I use them extremely sparingly, but would not condemn them altogether. Good style and communication skills cannot be enforced by strict rules; they always depend on the context.

Subject: RE: Tech: obscure characters app native to Win10+
From: Mr Red
Date: 31 Aug 24 - 07:47 AM

�� = �� (not even in preview!)
The point about using addons is it only works for me - if I am telling a story and want to accentuate it with emojis there is no point if the public at large can't see it.

As for ChatGPT - it is an LLM, it trawls the net, something I have been doing for 30 years, with a human brain, drilling down, testing variations on a question etc etc. Micro$oft have at least two apps that you can install, as I say I don't because I test my websites on a PC that is as basic as I can, to see what the audience see.

FireFox 129.0.2 (32-bit) It says upto date.
I am currently on Edge Version 128.0.2739.42 (Official build) (64-bit) let us see what that produces above, I can't see until I have fully submitted. Preview is not a good guide in this respect but right now the answer is "no".

Subject: RE: Tech: obscure characters app native to Win10+
From: Mr Red
Date: 31 Aug 24 - 07:51 AM

��
Chrome & Opera same result

Subject: RE: Tech: obscure characters app native to Win10+
From: DaveRo
Date: 31 Aug 24 - 08:01 AM

Mr Red wrote: The point about using addons is it only works for me

My addon converts a symbol that you can type or paste into the reply box into the ampersand code, so that everyone can see it - they don't need the addon.
As in this thread: https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=173463#4206340

Subject: RE: Tech: obscure characters app native to Win10+
From: DaveRo
Date: 31 Aug 24 - 08:07 AM

The viewer needs to have a font that includes the glyph, of course, otherewise they see an 'unknown character' symbol - a ? in a black diamond on this browser.

Subject: RE: Tech: obscure characters app native to Win10+
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 31 Aug 24 - 11:34 AM

A great way to get to the foundations

https://viewsourcepage.com/

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

i.e. News photos - that block copies have a root source.

Subject: RE: Tech: obscure characters app native to Win10+
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 31 Aug 24 - 12:14 PM

Mr Red, if you rely on your brain and it happens to fail (as mine sometimes does), is that Microsoft's fault? Are you not curious why I succeed with emojis and you don't? If you deign to read the source code of my above posts, or of this one, you may earn a 👍.

If you don't want Bing Copilot (it works with Firefox alright, with a trick), you may prefer Perplexity. Still enough work for our brains left, as our friend Stilly River Sage rightly observed.

Subject: RE: Tech: obscure characters app native to Win10+
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 Sep 24 - 03:40 AM

into the ampersand code as I said, and demonstrated, not all hash codes render natively on the 'Cat.

I don't see why people keep telling that if I use an Addon, or install. I already delineated why I don't. It's not about me, it is about being intelligent for your audience who don't install either. I aim for the lowest common denominator. Geeze.

I succeed with emojis that the 'Cat can render. ?? I merely pointed out a way of getting to choices with characters in Win 10+ for anyone who hasn't tried it.

FWIW I have written an Addons, not ones I can share

Subject: RE: Tech: obscure characters app native to Win10+
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 Sep 24 - 03:50 AM

I have my own hash code generator, it is 20+ years old. https://mister.red/various/codes3.htm#160 the box at the bottom converts any sequence to hash codes, it was intended for helping disguising e-mail links. These days that is a vain hope.

And any character can be seen/listed. Because it is in JavaScript it has kept pace, to some extent.

Subject: RE: Tech: obscure characters app native to Win10+
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 01 Sep 24 - 03:52 AM

FYI: I do not use addons for the 'Cat, and I don't recommend any.

Subject: RE: Tech: obscure characters app native to Win10+
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 01 Sep 24 - 03:58 AM

Mr. Red, if your JavaScript is that old, it cannot have the notion of "code point" yet, as introduced in ECMAScript 2015.

Subject: RE: Tech: obscure characters app native to Win10+
From: DaveRo
Date: 01 Sep 24 - 01:24 PM

Mr Red wrote: ?? = �� (not even in preview!)

These 'surrogate pair' emoji codes are strange. I'm not sure why they exist - even after reading about them.

There is an html entity code for 'OK hand' here: 👌 Let's try that: 👌

(I can type either the double or single entity codes into a google search and it converts it to the 'OK hand'.)

Hmmm.

Subject: RE: Tech: obscure characters app native to Win10+
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 02 Sep 24 - 05:19 AM

Dave, "why they exist" is not difficult to understand. The actual question is: why do browsers combine them correctly when entered via UTF-8 but fail to combine them when entered as entities, such as ��. The answer, I guess, is simply that emojis and entities come from different millennia.

I asked ChatGPT to write a converter for me. The first version had the same error as MrRed's. After my complaint "It should work for codepoints as well", this is what it came up with – just copy to a text file and save it as "GrishkaConverter.html"; feel free to add conversion of < to &lt; etc.:

<!DOCTYPE html>
<html lang="en">
<head>
    <meta charset="UTF-8">
    <meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width, initial-scale=1.0">
    <title>Grishka's Text to HTML Code Converter</title>
    <style>
       body {
            font-family: Arial, sans-serif;
            margin: 20px;
       }
       #output {
            white-space: pre-wrap;
            border: 1px solid #ccc;
            padding: 10px;
            margin-top: 10px;
       }
    </style>
</head>
<body>
    <h1>Grishka's Text to HTML Code Converter</h1>
    <textarea id="input" rows="10" cols="50" placeholder="Paste your text here..."></textarea>
    <div id="output"></div>

    <script>
       document.getElementById('input').addEventListener('input', function() {
            const inputText = this.value;
            let outputText = ';

            for (let i = 0; i < inputText.length; i++) {
                const charCode = inputText.codePointAt(i);
                if (charCode <= 127) {
                   outputText += String.fromCodePoint(charCode);
                } else {
                   outputText += '&#x' + charCode.toString(16) + ';';
                }
                if (charCode > 0xFFFF) {
                   i++; // Skip the next code unit if it's a surrogate pair
                }
            }

            document.getElementById('output').innerText = outputText;
       });
    </script>
</body>

Subject: RE: Tech: obscure characters app native to Win10+
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 02 Sep 24 - 05:36 AM

To complicate matters, Unicode features combinations of higher order, such as:
🇺+🇸=🇺🇸
which are combined correctly in my Firefox.

Subject: RE: Tech: obscure characters app native to Win10+
From: DaveRo
Date: 02 Sep 24 - 06:13 AM

I understand why surrogate pairs exist in javascript - to encode unicode values greater than 16 bits. The 'OK hand' emoji is 0x1F44C which is 17 bits long.

But what are the two-part 'html entities' for? AFAIK html entity codes - 'ampersand codes' - are only useful to display a unicode glyph. And unlike javascript encoding there is no limit on the length of the entity code string.

(line 28 has a missing ' BTW)

Subject: RE: Tech: obscure characters app native to Win10+
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 02 Sep 24 - 06:53 AM

Dave, "two-part 'html entities'" of "surrogate pairs" are an error, as we have seen.

In contrast, so-called combining characters like the flag codes are not considered single "Unicode values", although their function is quite similar. The Unicode people have a hard job.

As for "(line 28 has a missing ' BTW)" – in my own file it is there. Either I deleted it accidentally or Mudcat disapproves of double apostrophes. Let's try: ' – the preview shows it correctly. To be on the safe side, the following line (28) should have a double apostrophe:

let outputText = ';

Subject: RE: Tech: obscure characters app native to Win10+
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 02 Sep 24 - 06:57 AM

Indeed, Mudcat deletes one of the apostrophes! We keep learning! The following might work better:

let outputText = '';

Subject: RE: Tech: obscure characters app native to Win10+
From: DaveRo
Date: 02 Sep 24 - 07:51 AM

Back to the OP.

My wife has Win 10.The other day she was trying to enter 'O₂' (the UK phone operator) into Excel. After trying various keyboard combinations (she found O²) she gave it up and entered 'O2'.

I just mentioned this window + dot thing and indeed there is a subscript 2, so she entered O₂ into the field at the top of the Excel screen. Fine - except that it doesn't appear in the cell itself which has O followed by a box - which probably means unprintable. She also tried the superscript 2: that resulted in O" (which happens to be shift 2 on a UK keyboard).

She was unimpressed. The line stays as O2.

Subject: RE: Tech: obscure characters app native to Win10+
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 02 Sep 24 - 09:16 AM

Side issue: Beware of doing fancy things with text. I once read of a chap who wished to emphasise the "not" in his boilerplate e-disclaimer by using flashing-font escape codes, secure in the knowledge that said codes would survive being e-mailed, as it would be decoded correctly at the far end by MIME-compliant mailers.

What he didn't anticipate was that one recipient's e-mail client (or perhaps his monitor) would elide everything between the "start flash" and "end flash" codes, because it didn't understand them (properly?); this turned the disclaimer into a claimer. The ensuing bollocking was so intense that the offender subsequently sent an e-confession to the entire Net, lest others fall into the same trap for lack of warning.

We now return you to the original subject.

Subject: RE: Tech: obscure characters app native to Win10+
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 02 Sep 24 - 02:30 PM

I just tried it in LibreOffice, and it took O₂ (the Unicode one, not HTML) all right – important for chemistry.

It failed though when asked to add ⅙ to ⅚...

Before condemning Excel, make sure the lady uses a recent version, not "20+ years" old.

Subject: RE: Tech: obscure characters app native to Win10+
From: DaveRo
Date: 02 Sep 24 - 02:50 PM

Office 2019 - bought (from ebay) a couple of years ago. I was surprised, though; what you enter at the top normally appears in the cell, and vice versa.

I don't get involved with her Windows machine any more than necessary so I didn't investigate further. The O₂ might be a font problem, but the the O²...?