Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 12:26 PM

@ Lang Johnnie Mor - Yes, that was me posting about the newly created Edinburgh branch of CCE on The Session (under my real name, which lots of people here know anyway! They seem to be doing well: this very weekend (tomorrow night, 30th, and most of Sunday) there is a Trad Fest in Leith, run by Tom Oakes. The CCE group have been invited to host one of the sessions in gentle-paced Irish tunes, so it's looking good for them. More details here:
Winter Trad
As for the TMSA, and as I mentioned further up the thread, they used to get annual funding from the former Scottish Arts Council, but when the latter morphed into Creative Scotland, that funding stopped (same for Scots Music Group too.)Protests outside the Scottish Parliament, supported by some music-loving MSPs failed to cut any ice!

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 05:50 AM

YEs me -sorry I was anonymous- not deliberate.

Reading my post again, the more prescriptive of the two organisations is IMHO, not TMSA but CCE.

Re 'Skibbereen' I'll repeat the story-   About 30 years ago. was booked as the Irish musician (I'm a Geordie) in Annie May's bar in the main street of Skibbereen at £30 & free beer.

It was one of those awful Irish pubs which left the TV on during the music. I'd been a few times before but heyho it was a partial living!

Anyway, this time Annie May was away - when I ordered my pint & was told by the barman he had orders it was the flat fee only & no free Beamish.
So we left immediately and have never been back- hopefully it has improved in the years since?

Alex McKie of Felling-on-Tyne & Ballydehob was with us & on the way back, ironically just passing the town's Famine Graveyard, Alex burst into the appropriate song.....

   'and that's another reason why I left old Skibbereen'

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 24 - 01:28 PM

Jim Bainbridge? and thats another reason i left old skibbereen

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 24 - 12:14 PM

I think the strength of CCE in Britain is maybe a result of the number of Irish immigrants to British cities beginning after the war, ie where the work was! London, Birmingham, Leeds in particular- at a time when Irish mmusic was emerging from a dark period in Ireland. Glasgow fits that nicely.
TMSA was set up on the model of CCE, although with much less state support & a purely Scottish coverage. It does great work & with a less prescriptive approach to the music- many fine musicians have mixed feelings about it.

Tattie, I get where you're coming from & why you use the 'dots' but your mention of a number of musicians playing the 'right chord' is an illustration of the question at the head of this thread. Re workshops, I think the 'dots' would be a rarity at an English music workshop and non-existent in Ireland, so there's another basic difference.
Mind you, Captain O'Neill thought enough of the dots to compile his 1001 tunes!

   As for Jimmy Shand, I really meant he was the best I've heard in my lifetime. I'm an admirer of Will Starr- also William Hannah, the Wypers etc but before my time really





, it does great work & with a rather less prescriptive attitude to the
















The TMSA is a fine organisation but hardly in the same category as CCE, a worldwide if somewhat prescriptive in its attitudes- TMSA is much less so, IMHO, and deserves much more support from Holyrood.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 26 Nov 24 - 10:59 AM

"a person 'in charge' will make sure that at a tunes session there is an hour or so of each"

This exemplifies what I was talking about earlier. There's nothing at all wrong with Scottish, Irish, Welsh, French or any other music. But a good session is an organic thing, a product of the common purpose of the musicians. If it has a leader, that's by informal, tacit, agreement.

A dozen years ago, at a northern English folk festival, one pub had:

An English (spontaneous) singaround in the "private" room.
A holybejasus Irish session in the bar next door (fortunately sufficiently soundproofed both ways).
A Welsh session in the corridor.
Another Irish session in the other bar.
And an organised folk club upstairs.

And there were other pubs to go to if none of those suited. Pubs aren't like that these days.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Peterr
Date: 26 Nov 24 - 09:43 AM

My brother lives in Australia, and says that at his local festival a person 'in charge' will make sure that at a tunes session there is an hour or so of each of Scottish, English, Irish, whatever in no particular order), otherwise proceedings are most likely to be dominated by Irish.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Nov 24 - 04:03 PM

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Manitas_at_home - PM
Date: 16 Nov 24 - 10:25 AM

I haven't been playing concertina very long but I find playing across the rows easier than playing up and down them quote

yes that is the way noel hill teaches. he teaches a system, where beginners use the strong fingers, starting on the c row for playing in g PLAYING AN OCTAVE SCALE g a on left c row then bc on right c row, then d e left g row then f sharp g right g row, the advantage of this is you are using your index and middle fingers

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Nov 24 - 03:54 PM

And for the record, I don't know if Jimmy Shand ever played in a session, but IMHO was the finest , most tuneful and rhythmic box player I've ever heard, QUOTE
Jimmy Shand, used to call Will Starr the 'King'https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_pGiqpbqZo

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Lang Johnnie Mor
Date: 25 Nov 24 - 03:38 PM

We're good Tattie Bogle. My apologies for not being clearer myself, and causing confusion. I wouldn't have known without looking it up how much later the St. James The Great branch came into being, but I did know that the Comhaltas branch created by Jimmy, Ann and some others was older than 35 years.
Incidentally, there was a Comhaltas branch in Dundee throughout the early 1990s of which I was a member.
I hope the Edinburgh branch can get up and running. I did see it mentioned - possibly by yourself - on "thesession.org".
Can't help but wonder what the state of Scottish traditional music might have been today had the TMSA been in receipt of similar funding to that given to Comhaltas over the last 60 years. The same could be said of England and Wales, I suppose. On we go.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 25 Nov 24 - 01:31 PM

Hi Lang Johnnie Mor,
Ok, I may have misread and misunderstood your sentence - "The nearest we have in Scotland would be the TMSA......" - which to me (and maybe others) implied that there wasn't a Comhaltas set-up in Scotland. If so, I apologise for the misinterpretation.
I did do a little research before my post of 24/11/24 at 6.54 AM, and the figure of 35 years came from this website: https://www.stjamesthegreatcce.com/
which has been the venue for meetings of CCE for 35 years.
I should instead have gone to this website, which gives the full history of CCE in Glasgow, from January 1957:
https://www.glasgowirishminstrels.com/history

So, Johnnie, big mouthful of humble pie here, which I hope you'll accept and not be too hard on me!
And I agree entirely with your final sentence in that last post of yours.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Lang Johnnie Mor
Date: 24 Nov 24 - 01:43 PM

@Tattie Bogle : "And now answering Lang Johnnie Mor: there ARE branches of Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann in Scotland, notably the long-established (35 years) Glasgow branch which has spawned many brilliant players of Irish music".
I never asked any question about Comhaltas branches in Scotland, about which I may know more than you. The late great fiddler Jimmy McHugh established the first branch of Comhaltas outside the island of Ireland in Glasgow in 1957, so where do you get your "35 years" from ?
The fact remains, we have nothing at all here in Scotland to compare with Comhaltas. Ireland is a country which promotes with government funding, and is proud of its' traditional music in a way we can only look on with envy. Would that it were not so.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 24 Nov 24 - 01:14 PM

A further word on the subject of the TMSA - a very laudable organisation which is coming up soon to its 60th anniversary: it has a number of branches which hold events and support musicians throughout Scotland. They lost a large chunk of core funding when the former Scottish Arts Council became Creative Scotland a few years back: grants were more for "one-off" and "innovative" projects rather than ongoing annual funding: Edinburgh-based Scots Music Group suffered the same fate. I was a founder member of the Edinburgh & Lothians TMSA branch, and served on their committee until very recently.
And I loved Auchtermuchty (TMSA) Festival with Jim and "The Rattlers" enlivening the evenings!
What have we in Scotland to compare with the Comhaltas movement in Ireland and elsewhere? The afore-mentioned Scots Music Group and Youth Gaitherin in Edinburgh, SC&T in Aberdeen, Glasgow Folk Workshop, The Feis Ros, Falkirk Fiddlers, and probably many more, all running classes for folk who wants to learn an instrument or sing. All of these provide tuition in Scottish music, and actively encourage people to get out there and play in sessions, form bands, play in care homes, cathedrals and anywhere else that asks! I have been in 2 ceilidh bands that both arose from Scots Music Group classes. There have also been various successful projects to get Scots Music into schools, though it still the case that not every school will benefit. and don't forget that we have also pipe bands, fiddle and accordion clubs, ceilidh dancing, Scottish country dancing (RSCDS), numerous festivals. It's all great, and definitely NOT the case that we are not propagating our wonderful Scottish music.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 24 Nov 24 - 06:54 AM

Answering Jim B first: and yes, I know this thread was supposed to be mainly about sessions, but the event I was talking about last weekend was a workshop rather than a session, so sheet music was used to allow for a larger number of tunes to be got through in the course of a day. This included standard notation, mandolin tab and whistle diagrams for the appropriate instruments. And with over 30 of us in the room, it’s better that the chord players all play the same chords. When I used to go to sessions I was mainly playing by ear and leaving the dots at home. But, sadly, I am losing my hearing, along with my sense of pitch, so playing by ear is no longer at all easy for me. So it’s back to the dots.
And yes, it does seem that a lot of piano accordion players do favour using sheet music, though there are also plenty who manage without. And no, I don’t think it is an increasing trend for semitone melodeon players to use the dots: as you know, our choice of chords is limited, but some fit better than others!

And now answering Lang Johnnie Mor: there ARE branches of Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann in Scotland, notably the long-established (35 years) Glasgow branch which has spawned many brilliant players of Irish music. Much more recently, only this September, a new branch has started in Edinburgh: so far they have had a couple of instrumental sessions and another meeting focussing on song.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 24 Nov 24 - 06:13 AM

pretty negative comment from 'Smoke' who demonstrates the ignorance of Scottish music all too common south of the border, but I can see where he/she's coming from....
   Ignorance of the people's' music was pretty common in BBC Scotland 50/60 years ago as well- BBC did then & still does take its ideas from London (don't start me!)

There is still an all too common 'Caledonian' mindset which ended the traditional Auchtermuchty festival ten years ago when the town committee decided they wanted something more Caledonian (!!)- yes you've guessed it, tartan, RCDS style dances 'feckin' bagpipes rather than Jock Duncan, Joe Aitken, Margaret Bennett & the Lomond Ceilidh band.

This thread is about 'sessions' & I still think the 'Caledonian' approach is a major reason for the perception of Scottish music outside Scotland- TMSA try hard with a much less formal approach, but cannot compare to the reach of CCE & typically get very little financial support compared to the Irish organisation.

   And for the record, I don't know if Jimmy Shand ever played in a session, but IMHO was the finest , most tuneful and rhythmic box player I've ever heard

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 24 - 04:49 PM

And let's not forget the amazing Shetland fiddle tradition. Among others, of course. Very good points in the last two posts.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Lang Johnnie Mor
Date: 23 Nov 24 - 03:49 PM

"Jimmy Shand, Andy Stewart, The White Heather Club, and fecking bagpipes put me off Scottish folk music for life".
A bit like me saying ""The Spinners" put me off English folk music for life" - which they didn't.
The examples mentioned are from the 1950s - 1960s. Things have changed quite a bit since then.
And none of your examples would ever have set foot inside a Scottish folk club, which we've had for more than 60 years.
Anyway, entirely up to you - it's your loss.
One thing which I don't think has been mentioned in this discussion above is that several of the larger cities of England which have significant Irish populations established branches of Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann, who taught the playing of Irish music, and were also always keen to go out and play it in pubs. The nearest we have in Scotland would be the TMSA, which has only a tiny fraction of the worldwide membership of Comhaltas, and to the best of my knowledge, has never had any branches south of the border, nor anywhere else outwith Scotland.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Johnny J
Date: 23 Nov 24 - 07:21 AM

Also, many of the artists appearing on these shows are much maligned and there was actually a lot of good music. It was more the production and tartan image which was to blame.

We had many good folk singers of their time e.g. Joe Gordon Folk Four, The Corries, Robin Hall and Jimmy Macgregor to name but a few.

Andy Stewart was actually a very good bothy ballad singer and impressionist although his image on the show was that of a "tartan" musical hall act.

Jimmy Shand was a prolific composer of Scots tunes and had a vast repertoire. He started off on melodeon but was great button box player albeit in "strict tempo".

Ian Powrie who appeared regularly was an excellent fiddler and composer. I could go on.

Alongside the WHC, we also had the Scottish Folk Revival with lots of great talent emerging. Arhie Fisher, Barbara Dickson, and a young Aly Bain to name but a few.

Unfortunately, the media did do our music a great disservice. Even although there was good music to be found on WHC and other programs such as Thingummyjig, many people were indeed "scunnered" by the presentation and production.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 24 - 04:01 PM

Look harder for it. It's there.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Snoke
Date: 22 Nov 24 - 12:52 PM

Jimmy Shand, Andy Stewart, The White Heather Club, and fecking bagpipes put me off Scottish folk music for life. I know I'm not the only one.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 22 Nov 24 - 09:53 AM

fascinated by that, Tattie, but as I said earlier, the Irish BC PAOLO players have always managed with with either no chords at all , or a quick rattle at unrelated chords which amounts to percussion.

Mention of sheet music maybe illustrates one reason for the question at the root of this discussion.
I know there are informal sessions in Scotland where the 'dots' are a rarity, but the standard big box, button or piano has maybe set a subconscious pattern where 7ths, diminisheds & suchlike are important, you'll know that ceilidh dance bands & strathspey & reel society musicians invariably play from music.

So has the value placed on playing the 'right' chord filtered down to smaller semitone/melodeon players & the interest in the bass side apparent here? Setting up music stands to ensure 'correct' chords inevitably detracts from the spontaneity which makes for a good session- and less attractive &to the casual 'joiner-in.

After all, when did you last see an Irish musician or ceili band playing from music? Either approach is valid of course & they are two separate traditions but I've always kept things simple & will continue to do that, having hardly ever found the dots any use at all.
And I've stayed at yours, non-Charlie, so be sure theres's always a welcome here in the Machars, even for a BC player....

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 21 Nov 24 - 04:45 PM

Re Jack's post: we have a friend who plays Northumbrian pipes: he can play with a G or an F chanter, and he has a number of sets in each key (as you can imagine, G is more popular with the rest of assembled company!) But he can suggest a whole set in keys which suit him, and others are happy to go with that.
And going back to playing left hand with a B/C accordion, I was at a very nice workshop this last weekend, and played a lot of left hand along with the tunes, which were mainly in G or D majors, or Em or Am. We were playing from sheet music, and there were some Bms and F#ms, which I don't have chords for, but I can at least play a bass note that is part of the chord, e.g D for Bm or A for F#M.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Nov 24 - 02:35 PM

[highland bagpipes]

I would agree that they're not suited to pub performance, but there are other types of Scottish pipes which are more suitable - the smallpipes, for example. The highland pipes constitute their own ecosystem, I think, which is separate from the session scene - that's to say, they're not really a 'folk' instrument like the fiddle or smallpipes. They're more of a courtly and martial instrument.

Bagpipes of any sort are rare in sessions with other instruments. The problem is the setup time. You can't just jump into the middle of a medley - even if you keep a set of bellows strapped on (not all bellows pipers do) you have too much pumping-up time to maintain continuity. And when you've finished a tune, players of other instruments also don't usually make allowances for the fixed set of pitches that Border or smallpipes have and will take off into a tune that needs notes you only have on a whistle or fiddle.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 18 Nov 24 - 09:03 AM

Ha-ha, Jim: a Charlie Brown I'll never be - unless a Charlotte!
I agree that it's hard to play any instrument and sing at the same time when you're first learning an instrument - I've been through it with piano, guitar and box, but if you're lucky and keep at it, eventually the playing falls under the fingers. I know you are adept at doing both together, having seen you performing live on a number of occasions. (and you even stayed in our house once!)
As for that funny fingering, you get used to it, using the outer row of right hand from day 1, just as on the piano, you have to play white and black notes in most, if not all, keys: I don't even think about "crossing the rows" which seems to hold a great mystique for D/G players.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottijim bsh Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Jim bainbridge
Date: 17 Nov 24 - 09:20 AM

sorry that mas me

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Nov 24 - 09:19 AM

Tattie- I'm sure you're not an unnatural' player but when I sing with the box I always find that remembering the words is enough to think about rather than the illogical (better word maybe?) and varying fingering of the melody side semitone tuned box- I prefer to keep life simple. If you can do it, you're a fine man, Charlie Brown....

Peter, I see no 'aesthetic' reason to exclude instrument players from accompanying themselves, although I know that generally that's the case in Ireland. I Had 20 years in Ireland, and it was the norm to be a musician (of traditional instruments) or a an unaccompanied singer but very seldom both together. I don't think that is as strict in Britain?
I was a rarity there & on visiting Sligo singers I amazed to be told no instrumental accompaniment was allowed! The founder, Frank Finn explained that twangy guitar players accompanying singers without permission had been a plague.
I accepted that, but months later, the rule was relaxed at Christmas & i started a song with my box, when you can guess what happened- out of tune & out of rhythm- I looked at the Fear an Ti and exchanged wry smiles!

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 16 Nov 24 - 10:25 AM

I haven't been playing concertina very long but I find playing across the rows easier than playing up and down them. You do lose some of the ability to harmonise but I think of the instrument as a melodic one and would leave that to the guitarists anyway.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 16 Nov 24 - 10:07 AM

Talking of which, cam anyone explain to me why a lot of Irish concertina players choose a C/G when a G/D does the job without using the accidentsls?

Quite simply, this was because C/G was by far the most common for anglo concertinas. Older players played up and down the rows, and because it was mainly played in the home it didn't matter that they couldn't join in with other instruments. Then the modern cross-row style was developed to play in the fiddle keys. This forces the ornamentation to be played in a certain way. Whilst it might be easier to play the tunes on a G/D, critics say that the essence of the style is then lost. Despite the now wider availability of instruments in other keys, the Irish style is built around the C/G.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 15 Nov 24 - 07:01 PM

Well, I must be unnatural then, as I do sometimes sing and accompany myself on the B/C. As for aesthetic reasons, yes, the box is pretty loud and in a session it would be very easy to drown your singing out by playing too loudly. So I would tend to just play a few chords and let the voice supply the melody while singing the verses, and then bring the right hand in for any choruses or instrumental breaks. My favourite keys for singing, depending on the range and register of the song are D, G or A, all of which work fine with a B/C.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 15 Nov 24 - 06:17 PM

One of Jackie's standard stories is how Joe Burke complained to him 'Jackie, Jackie, my bass is not working, it is broken, what am I to do'. To which Jackie replied 'Well, Joe, you can use the other ones...'

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 24 - 04:04 PM

The record that most got me into Irish music was Jackie Daly's Music From Sliabh Luachra Vol 6. If you want to know what's doable with the button accordeon bass buttons, have a listen.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 15 Nov 24 - 01:55 PM

There are a few accordion players around who are also very fine singers, Conor Connolly springs to mind and the late John Lyons was another one. I would say their choice to not accompany themselves is not one driven by practicalities but an aesthetic one. Same goes for concertinsayers, pipers, fiddleplayers even. They could if they wanted to but they don't.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 15 Nov 24 - 12:30 PM

Yes it's possible to do it, I agree but why, when the Irish seem to manage very well with very limited bass use or none at all?
Also, as a singer, I've always found the existing DG box very satisfactory, while I found the BC arrangement almost impossible to sing with -
There aren't that many British DG players who sing WITH the box but I've never found even one who accompanies his/her own singing with a BC box in Ireland- it is not a natural combination, I think?
So it's what you need really & personal preference as usual?

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 15 Nov 24 - 10:10 AM

“Nufsed” - er, no!
I play BC accordion and DO put chords in as and when I can: not randomly punching or flapping at the basses, but chords which match the melody. So I can offer you the “three chord trick” for tunes in a number of keys - C, G, D and A majors. For minors, I just pull out the stop that takes the middle third out of the chord, which allows some left hand accompaniment in Am, Em, Dm and mixolydian mode in those keys too.
When I was first learning, I asked my tutor, “When can I start playing the basses and chords?”
“Oh”, he said, “That comes much later”.
“How much later?” sez I.
“About 5 years” sez he.
Somewhat despondent was I, but he was quite right. I worked at it,
and proved that it is very possible to play chords and basses on a B/C.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Johnny J
Date: 15 Nov 24 - 06:26 AM

Freddy,

That is a good list list of programmes but spread over more than one radio station.
Some of these e.g.
The Orkney and Shetland programmes are only broadcast regionally on their own local BBC radio or Radio Scotland in that particular area.

Some of the programmes are on Nan Gàidheal which is available on FM and DAB but not AM in most areas.

Of course, it's easy to listen live or again on BBC Sounds these days but not everyone finds it that convenient. Casual listeners won't always bother and will just listen to whatever hapepns to be on at the time.

Having said all that, your point about Scotland being well served compared to other parts of The UK is valid. Also, there's nothing to stop the rest of The UK, Ireland, and beyond from checking out these programmes either and enjoying our Scottish music.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 15 Nov 24 - 06:09 AM

I've always thought the main point of the 'limited' DG (diatonic) melodeon is the built in rhythm section it provides- great for dancing, not that I do much of that.
   'English' and Scottish music tend to use much more staccato rhythms (the Scotch snap etc) and the melodeon provides this in spades. The piano box is now the norm in Scotland- some folk seem able to have a technique to replace some of its lost rhythm capability, & it's done mainly by drums & bass. The DG melodeon is dominant in England of course but the semitone tuning favoured in Ireland suits the much more ornate & flowing nature of Irish dance music.
    Attempting to 'smooth out' the DG melodeon for playing reels by crossing rows is OK- I do it myself, but also reduces its innate rhythm. I grew up with Irish music & did try the BC Paolo for a while but not for me as a singer too.
    As for the bass buttons on two-row diatonic boxes, I watched fascinated as Tim Lyons played his BC box & tapped the totally unrelated bass buttons as well as the melody side. I asked him what he was doing with it &he said 'jaze I dunno, I look the other way'
   another rated Irish box player did similar & said 'ah but it's only percussion anyway'    nufsed

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 14 Nov 24 - 08:15 PM

Not sure where “over a dozen Scottish programmes” comes from,

I wasn't judging the folkiness, just going by what the bbc listed on their 'folk' page. (link above)

Music Planet(world music mainly) (r3)
The Folk Show With Mark Radcliffe (r2)
Tim Walker's Folk (Lincolnshire)

Ambell i Gân (Cymru)
Celtic Heartbeat (Wales)
Georgia Ruth (Cymru)

* Blas Ceoil - (Radio Ulster)
Folk Club with Neil Martin (Ulster)
Trad Ar Fad! (Ulster)

A' Mire ri Mòir (Nan Gàidheal)
Caithream Ciùil (Nan Gàidhea)
Catgut and Ivory (Scotland)
Claire and Friends (Scotland\Shetland)
Crùnluath (Nan Gàidheal)
Fae Hameaboot (Scotland)
Iain Anderson (Scotland)
Oota Da Cans (winter only) (Scotland)
Orkney Folk Music with Jennifer Wrigley (Scotland\Orkney)
Orkney Irish Country \What's the Craic with Colin Kirkness (Scotland\Orkney)
Orkney Scottish Dance Music with Liam Muir\Dashing White Farmer (Scotland\Orkney)
Pipeline \Pipes and Drums (Scotland)
The Piping Season (Scotland)
Piping Sounds (Scotland)
Roddy Hart (Scotland)
Saltfish Sessions (Scotland\Orkney)
Take the Floor - Gary Innes (Scotland)
Tiompan (Nan Gàidheal)
Travelling Folk (Scotland)

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 11:11 AM

He did, PMB! I believe it was named the Shand accordion. I could be wrong but I believe John Kirkpatrick plays one. Talking of Shand and back to Scottish music - I never realised his influence on Scottish music until I began to learn piano accordion. My teacher gave me loads of music written by Jimmy himself. I never did them justice but did recognise quite a few which I thought were traditional tunes

As an aside, I sometimes sing a fake hunting song called three jolly sportsmen (taking the piss out of huntsmen). The chorus uses hunting calls - "With a ran-tan-tan and a chivy-chivy-chan". I have been known to sing "...and a Jimmy Jimmy Shand" :-)

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 10:42 AM

Irish concertina players usually use a cross-the-rows fingering which works out smoother for reel playing. That's been one of the big changes over the last 40 or 50 years- English melodeon players developed a cross fingering that transformed the instrument from the humpty-dumpty jerky sound to a smooth flow. Irish players use(d?) either BC or CC# boxes, which give a smooth tune line but never had any chords that worked. I suppose that fits better with Irish dancing, at least one hand does nothing. Jimmy Shand apparently had a special three- row box made, CC#D I think, with a piano- accordion left end so more chords than soft Mick.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 09:28 AM

> cam anyone explain to me why a lot of Irish concertina
> players choose a C/G

To fit in with us five-string banjo players.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 08:34 AM

Talking of which, cam anyone explain to me why a lot of Irish concertina players choose a C/G when a G/D does the job without using the accidentsls?

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 08:26 AM

I'll try Believer on my G/D Anglo :-)

Didn't get it for Irish where C/G work better BTW but mainly for English folk and Morris.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 06:13 AM

Don't forget the huge difference between the infrastructure of English folk (I know little about the Scottish scene) and Irish sessions, especially back in the day. The session is a place where everybody knows what they've come to do, and do it together. It's a specialist musical platform. Proficiency is appreciated, but egotism can all to easily wreck a session. The musicians get warmed up and into the swing over the first few tune sets. In pop up sessions (like at festivals) the musicians are getting to know each others' tastes and capabilities, and the tenor (hopefully not banjo*) of the session develops. It has its restrictions; G, D and related keys predominate. Though there was a fashion for fiddlers to tune up a semitone about 30 years ago. I never worked out whether that was to line up with sharp flutes or to spite the box players.

I think the CD "Music At Matt Molloy’s" captured this quite nicely, starting tentatively, working up to a full head of steam, then a musicians' break and a bit of singing, the whole thing getting a bit drop taken, but finally rallying for a great send- off.

The folk club was (is?) a place where people came to do their own thing, serially, and can cover a huge range of types of material, delivery styles, keys etc. Instrumental music is often difficult to fit in this, each set starts from cold. And you don't know, going into a strange club, what the local rules are. I remember clubs where songs deemed to be "music hall" were streng verboten.

Add to this the antipathy to competence some folk clubs affected back then, the attitude that "ceremonial" music should only be performed in full context, and the sometimes poor quality of records available for learning tunes from (musicians "collected" in old age and clearly past their best).

BTW I'm a Believer works beautifully on a McCann Duet concertina. I'll play it for you sometime, if you're not quick enough to stop me.

* I recall with horror a session where I ended up stuck in a crowd of 6 tenor banjos. It was like working in a shipyard.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 05:43 AM

Playing tunes I've learned in Scotland in English sessions is frustrating. I keep being told I ought to be playing them at half-speed, in G ...

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 05:45 PM

I'm no singer. I'm an enthusiastic joiner-inner (in fact, earlier this evening at a lady's 80th birthday party I was belting out "I'm a Believer"), and the only song I've ever sung solo was Wild Rover. It was New Year's Eve at our pub session. Somebody asked for it, and my five-pints-of-Guinness-fuelled self launched into it, fully expecting everyone else round the table to join in lustily. They didn't, the funking barstewards, and I didn't have the guts to stop. I mean, what could I do. There was no hole in the ground for me to get swallowed up...

Anyway, back to the fray... :-)

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 01:36 PM

They don't like repeated calls for The Wild Rover though. I know. I still have the scars :-)

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 01:33 PM

Whilst an Irish session at its best adds a lot to the pub atmosphere, depending on the pub of course, the musicians are generally not "performing" for an audience but are playing for themselves. It sounds selfish, but it works. Of course, a good bunch of sessioneers wil respond to requests for a song or two, of course!

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 01:28 PM

I love a lot of Scottish music and, controversially in folk circles, a lot of Irish music leaves me cold :-( Nowt wrong with Irish stuff, just that a lot of the sessions in pubs do nowt for me. I also love English dance music and find that the dance rhythms and pace suit my ear more than the diddly diddly stuff in Irish bars.

But that is just me.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 01:25 PM

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 12:41 PM

I've only just seen this thread and must comment on
> In the 60's there were folk clubs in and around London run by Scots and Pseudo Scots, yet apart from one, (guess which) not that many Scots songs were sung, apart from the obligatory Wild Mountain Thyme, and some folks though that was Irish :) <

It surely is Irish, being a McPeake re-write of Braes of Balquidder, as discussed elsewhere on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Beachcomber
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 09:27 AM

I remember that several young Scottish lads came to my home town in Southern Ireland around 1965 and stayed for the entire Summer. They had guitars and mandolins and played mostly the songs of Hall & McGregor , The Whistlebinkies, Archie Fisher, Alex Campbell and The Corrie Folk Trio. These youngsters hailed from the Glasgow area of East Kilbride and had been inspired by what they had been hearing in their local pubs, so they told me. Of course they soon picked up some Clancy Bros and Dubliners material as well !
I wonder if Robin Thompson or Angus McLean are still playing, somewhere ? :-)