Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Helen
Date: 02 Mar 25 - 01:29 PM

I suspect that some countries could block Trump's visits based on his conviction as a felon.

I'm hoping that is the case here in Oz, and I can place a fairly sure bet on lots of protests happening here if he does actually make it across the border legally. If he makes it across the border illegally we could deport him. That would be poetic justice, eh? LOL

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Aethelric
Date: 02 Mar 25 - 01:19 PM

Thank You Stilly

I'll make a point of citing ny sources in future.

There my be the odd protest or two in the UK if trump ever takes up the offer of a visit. I suspect Starmer is regretting making the offer

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 02 Mar 25 - 12:59 PM

Meanwhile, back at the news (paraphrased from BBC Red Button): Pro-Ukraine protesters lined a road that JD Vance and family were due to drive along when they went on a weekend's skiing trip; the family has been moved to an undisclosed location. There's also been pro-Ukraine protests taking place in New York, Los Angeles and Boston.

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Helen
Date: 02 Mar 25 - 12:54 PM

Thanks Aethelric. That was truly worth reading.

SRS has a valid point about long posts so I always try to pick out the most relevant quotes and provide the link to allow people here to read the full article if they wish. Facebook is an issue for me because I refuse to sign up to it, but I can usually read enough of the post if I have the relevant link.

The Sandman, your posts are your opinion based on the media coverage you have seen or heard. Please stop shouting at us (i.e. using capitals) and please don't disallow our opinions because you disagree with them. This is a discussion thread, meaning we can discuss the issue and put forward our own opinions backed up if necessary by relevant facts, quotes from relevant media articles and other sources or commentary.

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Mar 25 - 12:02 PM

I saw that episode, it proved to me that Zelensky is politically incompetent.
I will post what i like, regarddless of whether it is the same opinion as you, Trump was trying to persuade Zelensky to end the war with Putin You clearly think everyone has to have the same opinion as you, have you heard of free speech .

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Mar 25 - 11:17 AM

Dick, do you read the news? Did you see that awful episode on the White House on Friday? Go inform yourself before you post anything else here.

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Mar 25 - 11:01 AM

Dick, Trump isn't ending a war, he's trying to 1) curry favor with Putin and 2) extort Ukraine to give him mineral rights, and in the end it looks like Trump and Putin are trying to carve up Ukraine. No props to anyone for that terrible move. No credit earned or deserved.quote
Where do you get your information from,or do you make it up

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Mar 25 - 10:51 AM

Since so many people will be hurt or killed by Trumpism. quote

He is trying to bring an end to a war.

and

I am in favour of stopping wars, and Trump may be doing this for the wrong reason, but when he does something I believe is right., THEN GIVE CREDIT AS YOU WOULD TO ANYBODY ELSE

Dick, Trump isn't ending a war, he's trying to 1) curry favor with Putin and 2) extort Ukraine to give him mineral rights, and in the end it looks like Trump and Putin are trying to carve up Ukraine. No props to anyone for that terrible move. No credit earned or deserved.

Athelric, on Mudcat we often quote from journal articles that are then linked to. Someone wrote something on Facebook that you did a very large copy/paste here. I did a search and found that Hugh Delehanty posted the remarks from Peter N. Bouckaert. You need to cite your sources.

We've gotten a bit sloppy here about following the unwritten (though it may be written, someone can check the FAQs) rule that posts should stick to one screen and should be linked and always attributed. When it comes to copyright material from publications a sample quote and a link to the original is the acceptable method of sharing. It keeps websites out of trouble by using the "fair use" approach.*

I will note to everyone here - we all need to pull back a bit on the lengthy posts. Read it yourself and quote the most important part, don't just dump the whole thing in here. We're not Facebook, we're a music site with a BS section and this is an important discussion but the long-form essays can stay on their own sites and be referred to here. What Aethelric should have done is go to the referring post (Delehanty) and click on the timestamp of that post; that will take you to the lone post and a heckuva long link. When we post links here we try not to fill the screen with them, but for those who only use the "blue clicky" or "blickfier" as some refer to it, it doesn't manage long links well. I like Bitly for shortening links that then can be posted here: for example, that Facebook post).


* The only exception to this is when sharing obituaries of musical folks that apply to Mudcat, because sometimes those sites disappear and we want to preserve the information.

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Aethelric
Date: 02 Mar 25 - 08:27 AM

Trump is stopping a war is like someone stopping a brawl between a good guy and a bad guy by breaking the good guy's legs.

From a post on Facebook.

As I am in Ukraine at the moment, I would just like to correct a few lies from the Zelensky/Trump meeting based on my work here in Ukraine—Trump and Vance you are welcome to come visit although I doubt you have the courage to do so.

1) Zelensky showed up in military fatigues as he has done at every international meeting since day one of the 2022 Russian invasion—the second Russian invasion of Ukraine since 2014—to show his solidarity with the Ukrainian soldiers risking their lives to defend Ukraine, and to emphasize he is the leader of a country at war.
I didn’t see any similar objections to the non-elected immigrant racist white supremacist Elon Musk showing up repeatedly in the White House in a T-shirt and baseball cap which he didn’t even remove—it is a standard sign of respect to leadership to remove your hat—so don’t lecture Zelensky on how to dress.

2) Zelensky is not a dictator and he is not an unpopular leader who is unable to mobilize his people. I have spent many nights and days in the last few weeks with soldiers heading to the frontlines and talking to them, and none of them have tried to refuse to serve and they were heading into the battle with determination and courage—I salute them and respect them deeply.

3) Ukraine and Zelensky doesn’t have to thank the U.S. or Trump—the U.S. and Trump need to thank Ukraine and Zelensky. This is for two reasons.
First of all, Ukraine gave up the third-largest nuclear arsenal in the world voluntarily at the end of the USSR under the Budapest accords guaranteed by the U.S., France, UK, and Russia, giving up several trillion of dollars of nuclear weapons in return for security guarantees for its territorial integrity which Russia has violated and the U.S., UK and France vowed to protect. If Ukraine had kept its nuclear weapons, it would have been one of the most nuclear armed countries in the world and Russia would have never invaded. We, the West, committed to defend Ukraine in exchange for its denuclearization so there is no need for Ukraine to thank the U.S. for keeping its promises. See https://www.armscontrol.org/.../ukraine-nuclear-weapons...
Secondly, Ukraine is defending not just its own territorial integrity but the future of Europe. I have been interviewing people from the Russian-occupied territories the last few weeks and they really do live in a Stalinist prison camp that is unbelievably oppressive. This is what Putin wants to bring to much of Europe and we need to stop him in Ukraine to save our own democratic future, at any price (respecting human rights).
In was in Chechnya 25 years ago documenting the same Russian abuses, together at the same hotel with the murdered Anna Polikovskaya, the murdered Natalia Estemirova, and Memorial’s Oleg Orlov who was imprisoned in February 2024 for “discrediting the Russian military” and later released in a prisoner exchange.
The difference in 1999-2000 is that we could operate in Russia, under the watchful eye of the FSB (the current KGB). The FSB were staying at the same hotel as us, the ACCA in Ingushetia, and one night I found a few cigarette butts on the floor of my room just to let me know they were watching us. Buy we could go to Moscow, Human Rights Watch had a staff and office in Moscow, and do our work despite the dangers.
Since the Russian invasion of 2022 (and long before that), that limited space for activism and civil society has closed down in Russia. There are no more independent journalists or human rights groups operating in Russia and the HRW office has long closed down, and Anna and Natalia and Nemtsov and so many others were simply murdered by Putin. Yet this is what Trump embraces instead of the freedom-loving Ukrainian people, and he has refrained of any criticism of the murderous dictator Putin, instead trying to humiliate the freedom-fighting Zelensky. But Zelensky isn’t humiliated, he stands proud and strong because you cannot be humiliated by people you don’t respect.

Shame on you, you twice impeached and felon convicted orange wanna be. You and your republican supplicants do not deserve our respect—I won’t even spell republicans with a capital R because they don’t deserve that honorific. Shame on you betrayers of our American Values.
Peter Bouckaert, Senior Director at Fortify Rights

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Mar 25 - 05:49 AM

WHEN IT SUITS

You choose the bits that fit into your own corrupt agenda
Ignore those facts that contradict your blinkered propaganda
You don’t know the truth or what it constitutes
Everything is always when it suits

You attack a man and say his clothes show disrespect
In the presence of the White House, they’re not what you’d expect
But not so your rich buddy, with whom you’re in cahoots
Everything is always when it suits

He’s a chap with a baseball cap, a tee shirt and some shades
But you don’t mind because of all the billions he’s made
Just ignore that chainsaw and those dubious salutes
Everything is always when it suits

Surround yourself with lap dogs and yes men sycophants
Saying you have all the cards to deal peace a chance
Yet all your cards are marked to favour your disputes
Everything is always when it suits

You wildly claim that Volodymyr is Ukranian dictator
When it’s your mate Vladimir who’s that manipulator
We all know just whose side you’re on and how it all computes
Everything is always when it suits

Paul Cookson
Poem 1720
Sunday 2nd March 2025

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Mar 25 - 04:56 AM

I am in favour of stopping wars, and Trump may be doing this for the wrong reason, but when he does something I believe is right., THEN GIVE CREDIT AS YOU WOULD TO ANYBODY ELSE

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Mar 25 - 03:41 AM

The USA has army bases in BULGARIA GERMANY ITALY POLAND UK JAPAN

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Helen
Date: 02 Mar 25 - 03:29 AM

Starting with COVID Coronavirus Cases::

Country USA         Total cases 111,820,082         Total deaths 1,219,487         Total recovered 109,814,428         Total cases per million population 333,985         Deaths per million population 3,642         Population 334,805,269

The USA had more total cases and more total deaths than any other country. The deaths per million population ranks at #14 out of 229 countries listed but the USA is probably the most economically developed of the countries listed, with a highly developed health system. [Note: the lists can be sorted according to the column of your choice on that page so that you can compare the statistics according to each category.]

Donald Trump deliberately defied scientific analysis to convince the people of the USA to not get vaccinated and not trust the scientific and medical experts. Interestingly, when he contracted COVID he was vaccinated. One rule for himself and one rule for everyone else.

Currently he has stopped USAID and how many millions of people including a significant proportion of children will die miserably of malnutrition and/or deprivation of medical aid.

Millions of children are expected to suffer and tens of thousands may die as a result of these actions. In the long run, without this essential aid, millions of children will die from causes that are easily preventable.

How many of the immigrants he has deported or will deport will die or suffer due to deprivation of medical and health assistance, social assistance, etc?   

How many people died or were injured, either physically or psychologically by the Jan 6 insurrection which Trump instigated?

And remember when he said he could go out into the street and shoot someone and no-one could stop him or hold him accountable?

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Mar 25 - 02:26 AM

Since so many people will be hurt or killed by Trumpism. quote

He is trying to bring an end to a war.

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 02 Mar 25 - 02:20 AM

‘Bewildering’: US media and politicians react to Trump’s televised attack on Zelenskyy

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Mar 25 - 06:42 PM

There is either a fine line between needing and wanting or an abyss.
I always wondered how the extreme right would feel if they got everything they wanted. I always expected they might hate it.
One of the most profound truths I’ve learned over the years is that wisdom is usually not found in the extremes, but somewhere in the middle is a more needful place.

Unfortunately, I’ve also learned that my pattern is usually to swing from one end of the spectrum to the other, before gradually settling into that wise middle way.

Lets hope the disenchantment with getting what the revenge-crazed right thought they wanted will find a middle ground. Since so many people will be hurt or killed by Trumpism its not possible to feel the schadenfreude I thought I would at the early dismay of the Trump voter with buyers' regret. I still feel a little though.

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 01 Mar 25 - 05:48 PM

.... I withdraw my last "you're welcome to it" comment: Looking-Glass Land was benign to a first order, and only dangerous by accident.

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 01 Mar 25 - 05:03 PM

Volodymyr Zelenskyy signs deal with UK amid fallout from Donald Trump meeting In short:

In a series of posts on X, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy says "tough dialogue" will be needed to reach an understanding over the war in Ukraine.

His posts came a day after US President Donald Trump and his Vice-President JD Vance confronted Mr Zelenskyy in the Oval Office, accusing him of "gambling with World War III".
What's next?

Mr Zelenskyy has signed a new loan deal in London with UK PM Keir Starmer, and will meet with other European leaders on Sunday local time ...

... Meanwhile, Russia's government has reacted with approval of Mr Trump and Mr Vance's actions at the Oval Office.

In a statement, Russian Foreign Ministry spokesperson Maria Zakharova described Mr Zelenskyy's behaviour as "outrageously boorish".

"The visit … to Washington on February 28 is a complete political and diplomatic failure by the Kyiv regime," she said.

    "For the sake of this, he has destroyed the opposition, built a totalitarian state and ruthlessly sends millions of citizens to their deaths." ...

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Mar 25 - 03:58 PM

From the FB Page of Mensa Saskatchewan, the Saskatchewan Chapter of Mensa, the international High IQ society. I have C&P’d the text here for the benefit of those who prefer not to interact with FB, and I link to the actual FB article below.

Some enlightenment on the values and sources of aid given to Ukraine in regard to its resistance to the invasion by Putin’s forces vs. Claims being bandied around by the Trump Regime…

”In the Constitution of Mensa, it says that Mensa is not allowed to take any political action and cannot hold political affiliations (though Members or groups of members may express opinions as members of Mensa, provided their opinions or actions are not expressed as being those of Mensa as an organization). So while I do have personal opinions on what happened between Trump, Vance, and Zelensky (????????? ??????????) during the session with the press at the White House today, I am keeping those to myself. I wanted to provide some fact checking on the numbers being thrown around though, as these numbers are not politics but verifiable numbers.

The USA has not spent $350 billion in Ukraine, nor even $300 billion. I have seen figures ranging anywhere from $119.7 billion (Kiel Institute for the World Economy) to $182.8 billion (U.S. Department of Defense), but the most consistent figure that I have seen is around $175 billion, and only $105.1 billion of that is to the Ukrainian government directly:
- $2 billion in humanitarian aid
- $33.3 billion in budget support
- $69.8 billion in weapons, equipment, and other military support
(Council on Foreign Relations, BBC News, Euronews, US Special Inspector General for Operation Atlantic Resolve)

Most of the remainder is funding various U.S. activities associated with the war in Ukraine, and a small portion supports other affected countries in the region (the $182.8 billion figure includes US military training and replenishing US defence stocks, so it includes all spending on the response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine). (Council on Foreign Relations, BBC News)

Of the $182.8 billion from the USA, only $83.4 billion has been sent, with the remaining $99.4 billion either not yet committed or not yet approved for payment. This is why Ukraine has received only $76 billion from the USA, and the $100 billion that people claim is missing is actually money that has not been sent. (Euronews, ?????????? ??????)

By comparison, the Kiel Institute calculates that, including military, financial, and humanitarian aid to Ukraine, the EU has spent $138.7 billion (compared to their calculation of $119.7 billion from the USA). Their calculations include only support directly given to Ukraine and exclude things like money used to replenish U.S. weapon stocks following donations to Kyiv, funds spent to help neighbouring countries welcome Ukrainian refugees, etc. However, using a broader definition, the European Union has committed $198 billion so far. (BBC News, Washington Post, Fox News)

Of all the funding Ukraine as received, NATO estimates that nearly 60% of the funding for Ukraine has come from across Europe and Canada. (ABC News and BBC News)

Canada has given $19.7 billion in aid to Ukraine:
- $12.4 billion in financial aid
- $4.5 billion in military assistance
The remaining funds are spread between humanitarian, development, stabilization, etc. aid funding. (THX News and Government of Canada)

Canada has also provided $5 billion to Ukraine from seized Russian assets, and the money will be repaid from interest earned on the held Russian assets (i.e., Russia will be bearing the burden of repayment). (Global News, National Post, CTV News, and Anadolu Agency)

In total, Ukraine has spent $120 billion of its own money, and Ukraine estimates that that total they have spent on the war is about $320 billion. (Voice of America)

If you're wondering, 35% of the funds going to Ukraine from Europe have been loans, and some of the repayment of those loans are coming from revenues from frozen and seized Russian assets and Ukraine isn't having to pay those portions of the loans, and the rest are really generous terms where Ukraine will be repaying less interest over lengthy repayment periods. The remaining 65% is grants an in-kind support. (Washington Post and BBC News)

***ETA: The actual value of the weapons and equipment sent to Ukraine by the USA is about 60% lower than they were priced because the price was for new stock. Much of the military equipment and ammunition sent to Ukraine is old and of limited combat effectiveness because it came from aging US stockpiles, some of the ammunition is expired, and a majority of the equipment isn't even used by the US military anymore (and therefore has an effective value of $0 to the USA). Normally, this stock would have to be disposed of, but giving it to Ukraine means there are effectively no disposal expenses. Furthermore, much of the funding for Ukraine is being spent in the USA, such as employing US workers to manufacture the replacement equipment and supplies for refilling US stockpiles. (Kyiv Post and AL24news - ???? ??????? ???????)

***ETA2: I am unable to share the links to the articles that I am using as sources, as there is an ongoing dispute between the Government of Canada and Facebook that prevents Canadian Facebook users from being able to share or even see news articles from any news agency. Someone shared with me a way to post the links, so I will try to do that later today.”

Link to Mensa Saskatchewan FB Article

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Helen
Date: 01 Mar 25 - 02:43 PM

Quote from Sir Walter Scott's poem, Marmion, usually wrongly attributed to Shakespeare:

"Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practise to deceive"

An explanation from enotes:

"...and so the cycle continues. The "tangled web" metaphor refers to the act of a spider spinning its geometrical home: if it becomes tangled, the points do not intersect as they should, and the web becomes a mangled mess, much like the act of keeping up with one's own dishonesties."

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Helen
Date: 01 Mar 25 - 02:28 PM

Thanks for that clarification, Lighter. That makes sense, and makes me think the Irish word connection is possible.

(An aside: I was driving on a busy road between home and the next city and saw a very large truck coming towards me and laughed out loud when I saw a very large sign hand-painted above the cabin which read "Pogue Mahone". It still makes me laugh. Most people who read the sign would not have known what it meant.)

As for my feeling that Trump and his cronies are building their own downfall, I expect that their self-constructed entanglement will sneak up on them and take them by surprise. Everything will appear to be going according to plan and then they will be caught in a web of their own making, and the job of the right-minded people to clean up their mess will be a lot simpler, more easily accomplished. I think democracy and working for the good of the country will reassert itself more easily when people see this tangled mess of selfish COTUS (Centre Of The Universe Syndrome - my name for them) people caught in their own web.

I also keep thinking what Hollywood will make of this when it is all over.

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Mar 25 - 02:25 PM

Today from Alt NPS:

Elon updated DOGE website, claiming to have fixed the mistakes we all pointed out—haha. But instead of correcting them, he just added more false claims. He even inflated his so-called “savings” total from $55 billion to $65 billion, when in reality, the actual increase is only from $2 billion to $2.3 billion.

Even better? He’s counting fully paid-out contracts as “savings.” Essentially, he’s saying: Here, take the money, but you don’t need to do the work. So now free handouts count as cost-cutting? Bold strategy.

Data Entry Errors and Quiet Revisions
- $8 billion typo – A contract worth $8 million was mistakenly reported as $8 billion in savings.
- Triple-counted project – A USAID project worth $655 million was counted three times. Initially reported as nearly $2 billion in savings, now corrected to $18 million.
- Social Security contract mistake – Originally claimed $250 million in savings for a contract that wasn’t even canceled; later revised to $560,000 for ending a “Gender X” marker initiative.

Misleading and Incorrect Data
- Contracts counted as savings, despite not being canceled:
- $4 billion from the initial batch is still included, even though those contracts remain active.
- A $1.9 billion IRS contract was canceled but is still included in misleading ways.
- Misuse of “indefinite delivery” contracts and blanket purchase agreements – These act as lines of credit rather than fixed spending, but they were counted as savings anyway.
- Projected savings will shrink over time due to termination costs.

Incorrect Contract Links and Mismatches
- Small Business Administration error – A contract for a “Shuttered Venue Program” was wrongly linked to an unrelated research support agreement that was never canceled.
- NIH contract misrepresentation – Claimed savings from a $99 million contract, but the actual canceled contract was only $9.9 million, with under $1 million in savings.
- Health and Human Services mix-up – A $150 million savings claim was actually linked to an active $119,000 contract for refrigerated liquid gases, instead of the correct $1.4 million administrative contract.

Auditing is so easy, even a park ranger can do it. Share this to stop the spread of misinformation!

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Mar 25 - 02:00 PM

Moulton and Vance are both U.S. Marines. (There's "no such thing as a 'former' Marine.") "Pogue" is a well-established Army and Marine term for a rear-area person in a non-combat support position. "Pogues" are conceived of as comfortable, smug, arrogant, and incapable of fighting like real soldiers/marines. It is not complimentary.

Moulton led a platoon in battle in Iraq and was decorated for valor. Vance wrote articles and took photos as a journalist with the Marine Air Wing.

The Irish etymology makes a lot of sense. In recent years, the word has often been spelled "POG" and defined succinctly as "person other than grunt."

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: gillymor
Date: 01 Mar 25 - 01:11 PM

I wonder if Trump's allowed to visit his testicles in the Kremlin.

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 01 Mar 25 - 12:12 PM

I'll put this in both threads (delete as appropriate):

Just announced in the last hour: Zelenskyy is going to meet the King tomorrow, as part of his UK visit. Someone's got balls.

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Mar 25 - 11:46 AM

THE SHIT HEARD 'ROUND THE WORLD:

Ukraine started a war with Russia.
Zelenskyy has never entered talks to end the war.
Zelenskyy is a dictator.
He has never thanked America for 250 billion dollars of weapons.
Putin is not a war criminal.
Trump's plan for Ukraine is better than the Marshall Plan.
Trump is a great diplomat and negotiator.

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 01 Mar 25 - 08:55 AM

> I was surprised that Fox News seemed to be allowing
> President Zelenskyy to present his case without being
> misrepresented by the Fox journalists.

That was the live feed, Helen. Cthulhu alone knows what the edited (per)version does or does not contain.

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 01 Mar 25 - 08:26 AM

I'll say it here, rather than the Ukraine thread:

Has anyone used the expression "the shit that was heard around the world" yet? if not, feel free.

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Mar 25 - 06:46 AM

Trump is taking a 'REVENGE TOUR' of NYC, banning grants, trying to reverse NYC policies, and demanding that the charges against the Mayor be dropped.

If you put certifiable people in your Cabinet, they will not find you certifiably insane.

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 01 Mar 25 - 05:54 AM

but how long will it take?

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Helen
Date: 01 Mar 25 - 04:28 AM

BWM, thanks for that copy of the FB post. I was surprised that Fox News seemed to be allowing President Zelenskyy to present his case without being misrepresented by the Fox journalists.

I am starting to think that Trump's large collection of machinations will start to pull him and his cronies into a whirlpool of their own making. Trump really wants to be awarded the Nobel Peace Prize but he is totally stuffing it up for himself. His appointment of Elon Musk seemed initially to be achieving the goals he wanted to achieve, but the consequences of Musk's decisions and actions are going to bite both of them on the rear, IMHO.

I see it as a whirlpool of a lot of different threads which will become more and more entangled until finally they will pull tight and drag them all down. Hoist by their own petards.

I really don't think that Trump and his cronies will come out of this unscathed.

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Mar 25 - 04:02 AM

I’ve also posted this piece to the ‘Long Night in Ukraine’ thread, but I think it’s worth having it here too..

From ‘Occupy Democrats ‘ FB Page today. (BTW, I quote sources such as OD because they express my views far more eloquently than I am able myself). The emboldening is mine…

BREAKING: Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy breaks his silence on Donald Trump's disastrous Oval Office outburst with stunning grace and class — but refuses to apologize to Trump as demanded by MAGA.

And the best part? He did it on Fox News.

This is what a real world leader sounds like...

"President Trump said after your meeting that you disrespected him and the vice president and all of America in the Oval Office," said Fox News' Bret Baier when Zelenskyy appeared on his show. "Do you think you did? And do you think you owe an apology to President Trump?"

"Thank you so much. First of all, thank you for the invitation, for this dialogue and good evening to all of your country, to all Americans," said Zelenskyy. "I'm very thankful to Americans for all your support. You did a lot. I'm thankful to President Trump and to Congress's bipartisan support and I was always very thankful from all of our people."

"You helped us a lot from the very beginning, here in three years of full scale invasion. You helped us to survive and anyway we are strategic partners," he continued.

"And even in such tough dialogue — and I think we have to be very honest and we have to be very direct to understand each other because it's for us very necessary," said Zelenskyy.

"To President Trump — and with all respect that he wants to finish this war — but nobody wants to finish more than we because we in Ukraine we are in this war, we are in this battle for freedom, for our lives," he went on.

"So I'm just telling that I think we have to be on the same side and I hope that the president on our side together with us and that is very important to stop Putin," continued Zelenskyy. "And I heard from President Trump a lot of times that he will stop the war and I hope he will. And we need to pressure him with Europe, with all the partners."

"And I think this dialogue had to be a little bit earlier to understand where we are," he continued. "Like you know, I don't remember exactly, but like President Reagan said that peace is not just the absence of war."

"Yes, we are speaking about just, lasting peace, about freedom, about justice, about human rights and that's why I said that 'I think so' to ceasefire," he went on. "And you know Putin, he's broken twenty-five times ceasefire during all these years, ten years."

"So I'm not hearing from you Mr. President a thought that you owe the president an apology," said Baier, clearly trying to pander to Trump who was almost certainly watching at home.

"No I respect the president and I respect the American people and if — I don't know, I think that we have to be very open and very honest and I'm not sure that we did something bad," replied Zelenskyy.

"I think maybe somethings we have to discuss out of media, with all respect to democracy and free media but there are things where we have to understand the position of Ukraine and Ukrainians," he added. "And I think that is the most important thing."

"We are partners. We are very close partners. We have to be fair. We have to be very free," said Zelenskyy, sounding far more like an American president than Donald Trump did today.

This is an astonishing display of statesmanship. Rather than give into ego or pettiness, Zelenskyy is rising above Donald Trump's childish bullying to serve his people.

Zelenskyy isn't interested in following Trump down into the gutter. He's interested in securing a lasting peace for his innocent embattled country, a task made all the more difficult by Trump's kowtowing to Vladimir Putin.

Zelenskyy is also correct that these conversations should take place behind closed doors instead of being exploited to create a media circus. Trump and Vance ambushed him in the Oval Office in front of reporters because they knew that it would make headlines and entertain their base.

They are not serious leaders. Zelenskyy is.

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Mar 25 - 03:47 AM

”it all seems to have kicked off when a MAGAnaut pressman accused Zelenskyy of disrespecting President Tantrum by not wearing a suit.”

No matter what Pres. Zelenskyy wears, at least he takes care of himself and looks fit and well, and he always looks a hundred percent better than Trump with the theatrical-looking comb-over, fake tan, ridiculous long ties, and baggy suits that look as though they were made for someone else even fatter than him.

”From this side of the pond. What Trump says and does demeans the respect I had for America”

Whilst I understand that sentiment, I still respect the nation of the USA. What I have absolutely zero respect for is the POTUS, his VP and his wider entourage, the entire GOP, and every individual American who elected him/them.

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Richard Atkins
Date: 01 Mar 25 - 02:48 AM

From this side of the pond. What Trump says and does demeanes the respect I had for America

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Hrothgar
Date: 01 Mar 25 - 12:34 AM

The 25th Amendment, as I understand it, has to be triggered by the Cabinet.

Can you see this lot being honest enough or brave enough to even suggest that it be considered?

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 28 Feb 25 - 06:49 PM

... and:

* Will Vlad want Alaska back?

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 28 Feb 25 - 05:48 PM

I was going to comment further on this over on the Ukraine thread, but the 'Cat went for a nap, and I've little to add now, other than it all seems to have kicked off when a MAGAnaut pressman accused Zelenskyy of disrespecting President Tantrum by not wearing a suit. Oh, and I've observed before that certain people tend to project their own sins onto their opponents, because they're the sins they're most familiar with. This is Looking-Glass Land, and you're welcome to it.

This still leaves a question or two, eg:

* How can the King withdraw the invitation which Starmer just handed over?

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Feb 25 - 05:25 PM

Trump's lust for revenge against Zelenski is due to Volodemer refusing to perger himself by accusing Biden of crimes in Ukraine when Trump demanded. This led to Trump's impeachment.

Trump's vengeful revenge is not limited to people but nations including the USA. If America was attacked and trillions of dollars of damage was inflicted upon vital US institutions similar to the damage Trump/Elon have done, America would be reeling and deeply wounded.

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Feb 25 - 04:57 PM

That was the most bizarre thing I've ever seen. Trump has completely lost his marbles and Vance is a playground bully.

I was hoping that Zelenskyy would stand and walk out of the room, but he took the high road all the way and stood his ground.

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Feb 25 - 04:38 PM

From the FB Page ‘Fear and Loathing: Closer to the Edge’ today, their commentary on Trump’s and Vance’s loathsome betrayal and public humiliation of Volodymir Zelenskyy in The White House. The link to the Page is at the end for those who care to read it on FB, but I’ve C&P’d it for those who prefer to avoid FB…

”There are moments in history where you can feel the tectonic plates of power shifting under your feet, the precise seconds when empires declare themselves rotten and ready to collapse. February 28, 2025, was one of those moments—a grotesque display of unchecked narcissism, geopolitical idiocy, and the full-throttle transformation of American foreign policy into a goddamn mafia shakedown.
Donald Trump, the world’s loudest and dumbest charlatan, decided to hold a public execution of Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, not with bullets, but with bullying. This was not diplomacy. This was not strategy. This was the kind of goonish humiliation typically reserved for reality television, except now the stakes were measured in millions of lives and the looming specter of World War III.

“YOU’RE GAMBLING WITH WORLD WAR III”
Trump—flanked by his yes-man JD Vance and an eerily silent Marco Rubio—welcomed Zelenskyy to the Oval Office only to berate, belittle, and ultimately dismiss him like a waiter who forgot to refill his Diet Coke. The Ukrainian president had made the grave mistake of advocating for his people, for his country, for his soldiers dying daily on the front lines against Russian invaders. But in Trump’s world, there is no room for dignity or resistance—only total submission to the Don.
"You’re gambling with World War III," Trump barked at Zelenskyy, acting like a discount Tony Soprano shaking down a local shopkeeper. "You either make a deal, or we are out." The message was crystal clear: Surrender to Putin, or America lets you rot.
When Zelenskyy pushed back—trying to explain, like a rational human being, that diplomacy requires more than rolling over and exposing your belly to a psychotic autocrat like Vladimir Putin—Vance chimed in, whining that it was "disrespectful" to discuss such things in front of the American media. Disrespectful! As if the real problem here was the optics, not the grotesque moral betrayal unfolding in real time.

TRUMP’S FIXATION WITH GRATITUDE: A MOB BOSS DEMANDING TRIBUTE
"Have you ever said thank you once?" Vance sneered at Zelenskyy, echoing his master’s worldview that all human interactions are transactional. "You have to be thankful," Trump added, "you don’t have the cards. You’re buried there."
This is what American diplomacy has become: an extortion racket.
Forget alliances, forget history, forget standing up to despots—Trump views everything through the lens of a cheap con artist running a rigged casino. Ukraine, in his mind, is a desperate gambler, and Trump is the pit boss deciding whether to extend another round of credit.
If Zelenskyy had gotten on his knees and kissed Trump’s golden slippers, maybe he’d have left with something. But instead, he left with nothing, because he had the audacity to act like the elected leader of a sovereign nation, rather than a groveling servant.
THE CANCELED PRESS CONFERENCE: WHEN THE HUMILIATION IS TOO MUCH TO SPIN
After the carnage, Trump did what he always does: He took to Truth Social to declare victory.
"I have determined that President Zelenskyy is not ready for Peace," he wrote, as if the real issue is Ukraine’s unwillingness to surrender, rather than Russia’s ongoing campaign of war crimes and territorial theft.
The joint press conference was canceled—which in diplomatic terms is the equivalent of overturning the table and storming out of the restaurant. Zelenskyy was seen leaving the White House, no deal signed, no support secured. Just the bitter taste of betrayal in his mouth.
Meanwhile, the Ukrainian ambassador literally facepalmed in the middle of the meeting. She couldn’t even hide her disgust. This was the international equivalent of watching your boss drunkenly scream at a client in a meeting while you rub your temples and quietly plan your resignation.

TRUMP’S ‘PEACE’ PLAN IS A SURRENDER PLAN
This is all part of a deliberate pivot in American foreign policy. Trump has always sided with Russia, whether it’s calling Putin "a very smart guy," ignoring his war crimes, or pretending Ukraine started the war. Now, his administration is pushing a so-called "peace plan" that amounts to a glorified land grab for Moscow.
The Wall Street Journal has already reported that Trump’s advisers are split on how exactly to force Ukraine to submit. Some want a "frozen conflict"—which translates to "Russia keeps what it stole"—while others are pushing for a formal deal that outright cedes Ukrainian land and resources to Putin. Either way, the outcome is the same: Ukraine loses, Russia wins, and Trump gets to preen about his ‘deal-making.’

THE DEATH OF AMERICA’S WORD
The entire world saw this Oval Office debacle. If you’re an ally of the United States, you just learned a very clear lesson: You cannot trust America under Donald Trump. Your security, your sovereignty, and your survival are all secondary to whether Trump personally feels flattered. If you are not groveling at his feet, you’re expendable.
Meanwhile, Putin is watching. And he’s grinning. Because now he knows that Trump will do his dirty work for him.
Zelenskyy was just the first ally to be fed to the wolves. He won’t be the last.
Welcome to America, 2025. This is what losing looks like.”

The stench coming from the west side of the Atlantic Ocean is becoming unbearable.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid0WMn5rfyS4ho9KMAsf3g5kAjNGJCtVQAM7GXmJ6Zy4LPqwS2ocZoeXGL5gdUGnPfYl&id=100079779344617

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Helen
Date: 28 Feb 25 - 04:25 PM

From an ABC (Oz) News article:

'Two cowardly puppets and a hero'

"Democratic Congressman Seth Moulton has reacted to the explosive Oval Office spat, describing the Ukrainian president as a "hero".

"    'The President of the United States is a coward who is Vladimir Putin's puppet. The Vice President of the United States is a pogue and a coward who is Donald Trump's puppet,' Mr Moulton told CNN.

"    'What we just witnessed was a meeting in the Oval Office between two cowardly puppets and a hero.

"    'And whether you voted for these puppets or not, just as an American, as a fellow American, it's just embarrassing that the only hero in the Oval Office, the only decent human being for that matter, is the Ukrainian.

"    'I mean, this administration is going to go down as an embarrassment to American history.'"

[Note: I'm assuming that the term "pogue" refers to the Irish Gaelic phrase póg mo thóin (anglicised to pogue mahone) meaning "kiss my arse" and from which Irish punk band The Pogues took their name. So, I'm assuming that Congressman Seth Moulton is calling JD Vance an arse kisser, but is JD smart enough to figure that out, or true-minded enough to take a hint from it?]

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: gillymor
Date: 28 Feb 25 - 04:22 PM

Does that include all Americans, Aethelric, even Americans who dedicated time and money trying to stop Trump?

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Aethelric
Date: 28 Feb 25 - 02:33 PM

I just watched Trump and Vance shouting down Zelensky. in an interview that "all americans should see" (Trumps words)

Americans should hang their heads in shame.

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Feb 25 - 11:48 AM

The Congress has to revoke that executive order putting DOGE in place and Musk as its unvetted/un-approved by the senate head. Then impounded funds need to be restored, fired employees returned. The OPM has no standing to fire employees throughout the government, a district judge made that crystal clear in a hearing I read about today. Trump needs to be impeached, and Vance will also need to be impeached. Hopefully by the time this is over a couple of house seats will have flipped and the next person in line will be Jeffries. It's a tall order . . .

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: gillymor
Date: 28 Feb 25 - 08:41 AM

Our system of checks and balances is nearly defunct. It's stating the obvious but if our system of government and way of life is to survive Trump we'll have to get into a position where we can limit the power of of the executive. Hopefully Trump's over reach, incompetence, and all around nincompoopery will help get us there.

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Lighter
Date: 28 Feb 25 - 07:44 AM

The 25th Amendment allows for the removal of the president if mentally incapacitated, but the process is extremely cumbersome:

https://constitutioncenter.org/the-constitution/amendments/amendment-xxv

As to presidential powers, they are theoretically limited by the Constitution itself and by actions of Congress and/or the Judiciary.

Without such actions, the system fails and the president is effectively unrestrained.

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 25 - 07:09 AM

I see that even after both Macron and Starmer corrected trumuski in public about Ukrainian assistance from Europe, he went on to repeat exactly the same lie immediately after.

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Aethelric
Date: 28 Feb 25 - 06:02 AM

I think the underlying problem is the US constitution. The president has huge personal power, and cannot be removed even if he is mentally ill or suffering from dementia.
Or is there a mechanism?

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Feb 25 - 04:04 PM

Out of a fever dream of a Trump 'lawyer' comes the idea of paying $5,000 to US citizens from Elon who will claim he is sharing the savings from mass firings and freezes. This will really help people look the other way from the 20 grand they will lose in programs and federal assistance. It is a cute Ponzi scheme in that the 5 grand people might get is just more borrowed money since the 36 trillion dollar debt is not repaid.

States are being told they will have to make up for the assistance the federal programs that used to do the heavy lifting. The States will of course, be unable to afford even half of that money. Perhaps some southern MAGA States will get some federal cash under the table.
Who really knows what direction chaos goes?

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Helen
Date: 27 Feb 25 - 02:16 AM

Ok I had to look up the "spoils" reference but my guess was correct: "to the victor go the spoils".

And all those extremely expensive yachts confiscated from Russian oligarchs. Do you think Trump will start sharing those around to his broligarch buddies? Now *that* would upset Putin and his buddies.