Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?

Subject: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST,Black Auk
Date: 21 Feb 25 - 08:47 AM

I've started singing Sweep, Chimney Sweep and I'm wondering if the phrase "Black as any moor" is taboo these days.

I don't believe moor was ever a derogatory word, but ya never knows...

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Feb 25 - 11:18 AM

You could always sing black as any CROW.
I dont expect there will be any crows in the audience and they probably would not understand any way, but if you get attacked on your way home by crows do not blame me

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST,Gnab
Date: 21 Feb 25 - 11:43 AM

Not heard of the Jim Crow laws?

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST,Black Auk
Date: 21 Feb 25 - 12:56 PM

Thanks, Sandman. It would be safer. I am all for not insulting people but sometimes it's take too far...

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: DaveRo
Date: 21 Feb 25 - 01:05 PM

It doesn't rhyme:
"Girls came unto the door I look as black as any crow,"

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 25 - 01:47 PM

Saddleworth Moor is pretty black at night and grim through the day. You could tell folk it means that ;-)

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Feb 25 - 04:53 PM

BLACK as Any boor, boar, whore. anyway who woories about rhyming

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Feb 25 - 05:04 PM

As black as chimney stoor. Scots dialect word for dust, could be used to denote soot.

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Feb 25 - 05:10 PM

stoor, that is a good one

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: MoorleyMan
Date: 21 Feb 25 - 07:15 PM

C'mon, surely this is over-reacting even in our days of taboo-focused culture.. Next we won't be able to sing "Black Is The Colour"...

Seriously, tho', it's likely the word referenced in the Copper Family song is Blackamoor, abbreviated to Moor and cited thus: "It's important to understand that Blackamoors emerged as a response to the Moorish occupation of Europe. They were Arabic, hence the turbans and tunics you see in many of them. They were a curiosity—there were not many Africans in Italy at the time. So that's where the tradition came from." And per the OED: "noun, archaic - a black African or a very dark-skinned person." Origin: early 16th century: from black + Moor. Factual, not an insult, nor offensive, thus not unacceptable. As is the obvious picture painted of a sweep having a face black with soot. I rest my case.

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 21 Feb 25 - 10:25 PM

"It is what it is..."

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Sing it our and sing it true

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST,PHJim
Date: 22 Feb 25 - 02:36 AM

Two girls came up to my door I wished that there were more
I am constant and true as the day

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: DaveRo
Date: 22 Feb 25 - 03:11 AM

'Stoor' is incomprehensible, except in Scotland.

John Boden sang this on AFSAD:

“From the Copper family come this strange and lyrically somewhat questionable number but one hell of a tune.

https://www.afolksongaday.com/?p=1334
He wasn't referring to the Moor.

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Feb 25 - 03:24 AM

Bobby Moore, would fit, and it rhymes

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Feb 25 - 03:57 AM

Why, sing the song, are the lyrics good or are you singing it because you like the tune?

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 22 Feb 25 - 05:26 AM

Bobby Moore would make even less sense as he was very blond.

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Feb 25 - 06:20 AM

"I don't believe moor was ever a derogatory word, but ya never knows..."

You are quite correct BLack Auk, if you read the attached link it will explain the meaning of the term

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST,Black Auk
Date: 22 Feb 25 - 07:22 AM

Why sing the song? Because I can. I think it's a great song.

Why ask? Well, there have been worse questions than this asked here.

Some people will take offence for the sake of it, I guess.

Why, in the 80s one London borough banned the use of black bags, insisting people use purple ones instead. A black mate who lived in the borough couldn't understand the stupidity.

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Feb 25 - 08:00 AM

”Why, in the 80s one London borough banned the use of black bags, insisting people use purple ones instead”

What reason did the Borough give for changing from black bags to purple?

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: DaveRo
Date: 22 Feb 25 - 08:12 AM

Purple?

"Under the headline 'the racist binliner is blacked', Chester Stern claimed in the Mail on Sunday that 'black bin liners have been banned at Bernie Grant's left-wing Haringey council because the are 'racially offensive'. This was supported by an alleged statement from an anonymous 'storeman' at the north London council's central depot and by a quote from a councillor who said, 'there was no written ban on the use of black sacks' but added that the council had 'a strong anti-racist policy'. Stern ended his piece with: 'The council has now changed over to grey sacks to avoid offending West Indian workers in the cleaning department'.""The report, notwithstanding the citation of an anonymous source, is without substance. The council had not decided to ban black bin liners. Indeed, days after the article appeared, the Civic Services Committee accepted a tender from a local supplier of black bin liners, since these were the cheapest on offer. Stern, of course, could not have known about this decision, since it was taken after he wrote the report for the Mail on Sunday. Chester Stern was not available for comment…""On 9th March 1986 the Mail on Sunday published a small and misleading 'update' on the binliners story. Under the headline 'Race peace in the bag' on 9th March 1986 we learn that 'black dustbin liners at the centre of a council race storm are not to be banned after all'. What had previously been presented as fact was repeated as such by Today, is now presented as a proposal subsequently withdrawn. "

(Clice Soley, MP, from Hansard)

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST,IS
Date: 22 Feb 25 - 08:20 AM

Stoor doesn't rhyme with door either. Also in Scots you'd probably say "stoor o' the lum" instead of "chimney stoor".

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Feb 25 - 08:35 AM

Hmmmmm, more Daily Mail bollocks then. Why am I not surprised? That’s why I asked the question.

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Feb 25 - 09:23 AM

Why do you think its a greats song is it the lyrics or the tune or both?

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST,Black Auk
Date: 22 Feb 25 - 09:40 AM

I don't think it was just the Daily Fail at the time.

Don't I also recall a lot of Border Morris teams stopped blacking up and used different colours, despite not being anything to do with race and skin colour?

> Why do you think its a greats song is it the lyrics or the tune or both?

I didn't really think about why I like it, but I guess I like both the tune and the song - not so much the words per se, but the song itself (if that makes sense).

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Feb 25 - 10:34 AM

no, that does not make sense, but its up to you. i generally like a song because of the words or the tune. chacun son gout

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Feb 25 - 11:38 AM

”Don't I also recall a lot of Border Morris teams stopped blacking up and used different colours, despite not being anything to do with race and skin colour?”

One of the reasons they stopped blacking up was precisely because it was felt by many, although of course not everyone, to be racist and/or racial stereotyping.

And as someone who worked for thirteen years for a company which made coloured plastic in primary form (i.e. granules and powder form, raw materials for manufacture of plastic objects), I can tell you that black is amongst the cheapest, if not the cheapest, colour to manufacture. And, of course, black plastic bags are highly opaque.

I’m pretty sure the choice of black for refuse sacks is a case of pragmatism and economics, nothing to do with racism or trying to offend people of colour.

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Feb 25 - 12:06 PM

ShermaL Moore, AS BLck as SHERMAL MOORE

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Feb 25 - 02:01 PM

I think he means Shemar Moore

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST,Black Auk
Date: 22 Feb 25 - 02:52 PM

> that does not make sense

I guess what I mean is it's the subject matter rather than the words themselves

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: Nick Dow
Date: 22 Feb 25 - 03:58 PM

Girls come to the door I look black with soot I'm sure
I am constant and true as the day

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: meself
Date: 22 Feb 25 - 04:13 PM

Now, someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I would think that the term "Moor" as indicating a Black person has been out of common usage for some time in the UK - I live on the other side of the pond, so that's just a vague impression. The term itself is perhaps archaic and forgotten enough now that most people in a general audience would have no particular reaction to it. The question then would be whether you feel comfortable with any lyric that compares black and white skin-colour. There is always the remote possibility that someone somewhere will take you task for it, so it comes down to how much that remote possibility does or does not bother you.

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: DaveRo
Date: 22 Feb 25 - 04:19 PM

The only controversy that I recall over the word 'Moor' is when breweries have renamed pubs called 'The Blackamoor' or 'The Moor's Head' because they thought - reasonably IMO - that it might deter potential customers. The predicable 'outrage' (© The Daily Mail') does not come from folk who find the word offensive.

One reason for changing that first line might be to make it more understandable to a younger audience who don't know what a Moor is or, if they do, misread it as a racial insult.
"Girls came unto the door I look as black as any Moor"
It implies he's attractive to girls despite being a dirty sweep. So translate that for your audience.
"Though my clothes and face be black, it's not for girls I lack."
That's not great, but you get the idea.

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 22 Feb 25 - 04:41 PM

“Acceptable” to whom? Kinda matters.

Unless you snagged a duet with Beyoncé or Taylor Swift, 8.119 billion folks won't know, much less care. And, truth be told, neither will you.

Democratic Socialist convention? Be vewwwy, vewwy quiet. Don't make eye contact and try to back away slowly. Social Democrats are only slightly less anti-social.

Local club, family & friends will pretty much know you for what you really are. If everybody already sees you as a lifetime, flaming bigot; you might just be one. Singing a song, or not, won't change much.

PS: All vinyl records are racist, except the 'coloured' ones.

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 22 Feb 25 - 05:06 PM

But what about the next line, "I'm as constant and true as the day"?

I was always told that this was supposed to reflect the character of a black person.

There is more to this than apparent at first glance.

Robin

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: Gallus Moll
Date: 22 Feb 25 - 08:05 PM

Hahahahaha .....'all vinyl records are racist'?!!!
Still laughing at that one!!

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: DaveRo
Date: 23 Feb 25 - 02:02 AM

Black belt caterpillar wrestler wrote: There is more to this than apparent at first glance.

The first line would perhaps make more sense if it were:
"Girls, come unto the door though I'm black as any Moor"
That is he is encouraging the housemaids to open the door in response to his cry.

Maybe there is less to this than my first glance.

I expect it's been studied and analysed.

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: r.padgett
Date: 25 Feb 25 - 04:23 AM

Yes, words and language and attitudes continue to change and so do male and female attitudes (Spanish Football chief's kiss for example)

Black as any Moor ~ does need an understanding and perhaps a vision of a black turbaned person, maybe

Moors in this context rather than common ground and era makes sense

Is it really necessary to change this? Maybe

Traditional songs do contain many instances of now perceived unacceptable language and actions that were once part and parcel of life ~ we continue to see such on the telly in popular series over 50 plus years. Tradies leave such matters on the club room door, you know what's what

Ray

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Feb 25 - 09:59 AM

Girls come to the door I look black with soot I'm sure
I am constant and true as the day
quote nick dow
That is perfectly acceptable

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST,Black Auk
Date: 25 Feb 25 - 10:19 AM

Nice one!

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 25 Feb 25 - 12:01 PM

No, it's not acceptable. Find something else that's black, there's a lot of dark things that are easy substitutes. Someone above suggested 'crow', which is what Nick Hart sings in his excellent version of Butter And Cheese And All.

https://nickhartmusic.bandcamp.com/track/butter-cheese

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Feb 25 - 01:43 PM

I suggested Crow, but Dave ro complained that it did not rhyme.
I think Nick Dows suggestion is acceptable...Girls come to the door I look black with soot I'm sure
I am constant and true as the day

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: DaveRo
Date: 25 Feb 25 - 02:22 PM

Saying a sweep is 'black as soot' is silly. And adding 'I'm sure' just to make it rhyme is feeble. Ask yourself - what is this comparison with a Moor supposed to imply? Just that he's dirty? Or more than that: unpleasant? frightful? Personally I'd leave it alone.

But changing the 'came' of DT to 'come' is an improvement IMO.

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Feb 25 - 02:38 PM

Saying a sweep is 'black as soot' is factuaL

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 25 Feb 25 - 06:43 PM

Are crows thought of as constant and true? I thought that was the point of the use of "moor".

Robin

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 25 - 04:00 AM

Why not ask a Black person

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST,Black Auk
Date: 27 Feb 25 - 08:54 AM

I guess I could argue that it refers to a bog moor...

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST,John From Kemsing
Date: 28 Feb 25 - 10:20 AM

Black Auk,
          Don`t be hamstrung by all this woke bollocks. Just sing it as it was written and let the listeners decide whether they like it or not.
If you are cancelled consider it a badge of honour.

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Feb 25 - 11:55 AM

Bad advice from John in Kemsing. If you have an instinct that something is wrong with it, then something probably is. Follow that instinct, change the words or don't sing the song. Don't spread the injury.

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Feb 25 - 12:05 PM

If you sing it and a black person complains hopefully you will not sing it again and you will have your answer.
I would not take any notice of JOHN from Kemsing What is the point of possibly upsetting a black person,John, wont be there to pick up the pieces if you do take his advice., of course if you want to get negative feedback go ahead

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 28 Feb 25 - 12:47 PM

Advice from the trenches: Some songs ain't worth putting your head above the parapet for. I once sang Andy Roberts's Raven on the Roof, saw the thunderous expression on the face of a respected member of the audience in the front row when she heard the last verse, and haven't aired that song in public since.