Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 14 Mar 25 - 02:15 PM

Public singing (as in days of yore) may make a comeback once AI runs its course. Stage plays too.

Make Britain great again

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST,John From Kemsing
Date: 14 Mar 25 - 01:04 PM

Without castigating, cancelling or cursing them, what about those folk who are perhaps not blessed with the ability to sing well but are interested in hearing how they were sung in public in days of yore.

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: meself
Date: 14 Mar 25 - 10:56 AM

"MBGA"??

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 13 Mar 25 - 10:59 PM

RTim said "The Moors were Muslim and established a thriving Islamic culture in Spain from the 8th to 15th centuries."

MBGA?

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: meself
Date: 11 Mar 25 - 03:48 PM

A common way of dealing with these possibly-but-not-necessarily offensive terms, ideas, etc., is to make the casual proviso that "some of the language may not be politically correct", or words to that effect. You will then, however, for better or for worse, have the audience listening intently for whatever it is that's (possibly) "politically incorrect", so you may wish you hadn't said anything about it ... !

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 11 Mar 25 - 02:33 PM

.... and we're straight into "What is a folk club?" territory.

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 11 Mar 25 - 01:34 PM

I start from the position that anyone attending a folk club should be expected to understand that these are old songs and use different language and express different attitudes and ideas from today. Of course that won't stop someone from taking offence at something, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't sing these songs.

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 11 Mar 25 - 12:07 PM

*Agree*, John. But, as in any walk of life, there will always be those who are determined to be offended, however far they have to go in pursuit of the offence.

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST,John From Kemsing
Date: 11 Mar 25 - 11:43 AM

I think Hesk is touching on the solution. As in many areas of the arts today perhaps clubs and venues should produce "Trigger Warnings" informing the attendees that tonights contents may contain references to mysoginy, murder, child abduction, starvation, antiquated terminology, privations of war, etc., etc. Those who would feel offended or frightened by such public renditions could then decide not attend.

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 11 Mar 25 - 11:02 AM

If I had heard the song, my first thought would be that you are referring to land. It very common in Scotland to talk and sing about dark moors, e.g black/dark Drumossie Moor (Culloden). I know of the historical ethnic category of Moors, but that was way to the back of my mind. So there is an ambiguity as to how people interpret the word.

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 11 Mar 25 - 06:50 AM

To my mind there is a big debate about what to do about things that were once acceptable but no longer are. If we allow them to be expunged from memory then we risk losing what lessons can be learnt from them. This applies to folk songs, statues of proffiteers from the slave trade and many other subjects.
Can we switch between an entertainment mind set and a historic lecture mind set?

Robin

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: Hesk
Date: 11 Mar 25 - 06:15 AM

Given that I sing this song from time to time, the lyrics, unaltered, are acceptable to me. I may or may not give a warning first, and I would consider doing this before singing any song with words or meanings that come from an earlier period.
Many folk songs offend a small portion of the audience. They usually keep quiet about it, but let their feelings known by the expression on their faces. It is often impossible to predict what they might object to. Sometimes it is the fact that the song is sung too frequently! Vulgarity in a song is a good case in point, whilst many are rolling in the aisles, others are looking grim and furious. My point is that you cannot please everyone, and, therefore, you might as well sing what you enjoy.

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 10 Mar 25 - 09:26 PM

so if the girl is called Heather?....she was probably born in 1975

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST,john greaves
Date: 09 Mar 25 - 08:09 AM

Up here(North York Moors) a black moor is one that grows heather and a white moor is a grass moor, so if the girl is called Heather?....

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: meself
Date: 08 Mar 25 - 12:07 PM

It's somehow appropriate that hyper-sensitivity based on fake etymology would work itself into this thread ....

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 08 Mar 25 - 10:29 AM

No, it was simply a rough measurement.

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 25 - 08:37 AM

Really shouldn't use the term "Rule of thumb" as that was used to suggest that a man could beat his wife with a stick so long as it was thinner than a thumb.

Just sayin' :rofl:

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 07 Mar 25 - 03:39 PM

I didn't get the connection between Morris and Moor. Thanks.

I had a friend who whenever we would talk about going down to Mexico would say "going over to Mexico" instead as if the word down was a poor reflection on Mexico. So I take it saying black is the problem not the word Moor. Something for me to think about.

PS: you're alright, sandman; a top man as you blokes would say

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Mar 25 - 12:33 PM

people in the folk world have a pretty good idea of who a moor is,Morris dancers for a start, generaaly have an idea that morris comes from moorish.Never underestimate peoples knowledge
i am,not intersted in your backside whatever colour it is... Paperback

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 06 Mar 25 - 07:23 PM

Nigger has come full circle too. From the more polite version 'negro'(sometimes disparaging spelt knee-groW) to 'nigga'.

Funny thing about 'nigga' it seems to have crossed racial lines into the realm of attitude.

I would never use it (nigga) but Im old.

As far as black as a Moor goes I don't think many people would even know what a Moor is, so maybe try submitting 'well-diggers arse' for Moor and really confuse 'em.

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: RTim
Date: 06 Mar 25 - 04:53 PM

The term "Moor" was used by Europeans to describe people of Arab and Berber descent who lived in North Africa and Spain during the Middle Ages. The Moors were Muslim and established a thriving Islamic culture in Spain from the 8th to 15th centuries.

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 06 Mar 25 - 04:30 PM

Sandman: bite my lily-white backside
( - ;

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Mar 25 - 03:36 PM

I agree that there is a reason to feel a bit punished by events, but the term 'colored' dates from the 30s if not earlier. The term 'Negro' was used in the era from the 50s to 70s and we now not only have to deal with the long existing NAACP (rarely reading out what it stands for), but the phrase "people of color" has brought us close to full circle.

A rule of thumb I was introduced to when I moved into a college dormitory that was ethnically 'concentrated' was that people heard a term that may or not be a slur, they reacted much more calmly if you said it with a smile. (You get extra credit if you remember the relevant quote from "The Virginian" by Owen Lister).

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Mar 25 - 03:30 PM

I think its not much of a song but if i was going to sing it I would alter it.
performance is about interacting well with your audience why do something that could put somebodys back up?

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 06 Mar 25 - 03:25 PM

I believe that the original intention was to imply that he was "constant and true as the day" because he looked "black as any moor". This would fit with the views of the time.

I can't see any minor change to the words that would convey the same message.

Robin

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 06 Mar 25 - 02:10 PM

Change the time, place and/or manner of a performance and the acceptance(s) will play musical chairs to the same beat.

200km east or south of Miami F-L-A and you ain't in Kansas anymore Toto.

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 06 Mar 25 - 11:58 AM

Someone should tell the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People.

The trouble is that these terms move in and out of fashion. When I was young it would have been unacceptable to call someone "black", the respectful term was "negro", and "coloured" was also acceptable. Now it's the complete opposite. It's easy to make mistakes, particularly for older people who were brought up to use different terms, or those for whom English is a second language. The distinction between "coloured" (unacceptable) and "people of colour" (acceptable) may not be obvious.

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: meself
Date: 06 Mar 25 - 11:22 AM

I wondered how long it would take before we got to the ol' "we're not even allowed to call them [insert outmoded term here] anymore .... "

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST,Black Auk
Date: 06 Mar 25 - 08:05 AM

Apparently even calling a black person "coloured" these days is wrong. I have no idea why, but an Asian guy who recently used the word was hauled over the coals and sent to be "re-educated".

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 06 Mar 25 - 07:12 AM

I've been struggling to make up my mind about this. There is no simple answer to how to deal with this question where old songs (or indeed any old works of art) are concerned.

What aspect of it might be unacceptable? Even when "Moor" was used to describe black people I'm not sure it was necessarily a racial slur, simply the usual term, much as "black" is today. In modern usage the term "Moor" is used only in the context of the mediaeval Muslim occupation of Spain. The term is widely used and is not considered offensive. Whilst the sense of the lyrics are clear, no one today would describe a black person as a "Moor", even if they come from the Maghreb. There should not be a problem with the word itself.

The song refers to the sooty appearance of the sweep which makes him look like a black person. Is this offensive? I sense that it might be, but I'm not entirely sure why. The comparison is purely factual and descriptive and is not derogatory. However logic does not always apply to these situations, and I can see that some might be uncomfortable with it.

There is a suggestion in the lyrics that despite looking like a black person the sweep is in fact a jolly good fellow, so this might hint at underlying racist attitudes which are no longer acceptable. In that case, alternative suggestions such as "black as any crow" don't alleviate this. However to excise these verses is to remove much of the song.

I can see a justification for content warnings on TV programmes where viewers are mainly passive consumers who may start to watch a programme with little prior information about what they might see. I would expect a folk club audience to be aware that these are old songs and of their time and most do not reflect modern ways of thinking about many things, and I do not routinely feel it is necessary to explain this. However that might depend on the audience.

My personal conclusion is that whilst this song might make some listeners uncomfortable it is not egregiously offensive. It's not in my repertoire but if it were I would not change it. I can also see that others might take the opposite view and I respect that. As I said at the beginning, there is no simple answer.

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 04 Mar 25 - 07:04 PM

Seamus: Easy? Are we reading the same thread? Seriously, not sure if you're referring to the changing or the accepting but I would not call either easy, nor one the same as the other. Artists create, audiences accept… or not… minutes or centuries later.

Social media, folk clubs, friends and families have the luxury of simply voting/shouting down their immoral others. If one's vocation is to study, preserve and present the works in their original forms… ethics and law should trump morality. The upfront disclaimers are there for the suits, yours and theirs and the State's (aka: CYA.)

99.9% - don't care. <0.1% - Yes, no, maybe, what if… any subject, any minute or century.

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 04 Mar 25 - 04:05 PM

RE: Is changing 'black as any moor' acceptable?

Easy. Try it and see.

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: DaveRo
Date: 03 Mar 25 - 02:26 PM

Black belt caterpillar wrestler wrote: So do we have a preamble added to "The merchant of Venice" before each performance?

Are there any Shakespeare plays that would not justify a warning that it contains attitudes, language or behaviour no longer considered acceptable?

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 03 Mar 25 - 08:35 AM

RE: Is changing 'black as any moor' acceptable?

Yes, no, maybe, what if...

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 03 Mar 25 - 06:08 AM

So do we have a preamble added to "The merchant of Venice" before each performance?

Robin

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 03 Mar 25 - 06:03 AM

BBC iPlayer adds warnings about outdated language to classic comedies removed from Netflix
Message warns that shows ‘reflect the broadcast standards, language and attitudes’ of their time

Isobel Lewis The Independent Wednesday 01 July 2020 15:40 BST

As TV networks and streaming services around the world reckon with their past use of racist stereotypes on screen, the BBC’s catch-up service added a pop-up warning to shows containing language deemed offensive in 2020. A message accompanying the recent remake of Alan Bennett’s Talking Heads reads: “This film is set in the 1980s and reflects the language and social attitudes of its time.” Meanwhile, a number of classic comedies including The Mighty Boosh and The League of Gentlemen have an added message noting that each show “reflects the broadcast standards, language and attitudes of its time”, adding that “some viewers may find this content offensive.” Both comedies were removed from Netflix in June due to their use of blackface, but have remained on iPlayer throughout.

Earlier this week, Channel 4 responded in a similar manner to the news that Netflix had removed a scene containing blackface from a 2004 episode of Peep Show, telling Newsweek that many of the shows in their archive “reflect the time they were made and some contain content which could now be regarded as inappropriate”. They added: “We understand the strong feelings provoked by some of this content but we do not believe that erasing our creative history is a quick fix for the issues affecting our society today.” After Gone With The Wind was removed from HBO Max, the show returned to the streaming service with a pre-roll disclaimer explaining that the film “denies the horrors of slavery”.

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Feb 25 - 06:12 PM

M t F:
Thanks. Totally understand, though I'm a nosy bugger. I have a similar lyric problem, although I'm not a professional singer, I enjoy singing even if only hiking by myself. A few years ago I was cheerfully on my own peeling out Stan Rogers' Barrets' Privateers and another hiker crossing paths with me out of the woods chimed in, not so much coincidence as good natured and well educated.

My lyric issue is with a Gordon Bok song, "Little River" where the lyric is a poem written by a woman that Bok set to music:

Little River lighted-whistle ,
Cry no more.
Sleepy sound from the breakers calling me
Back to shore.
Whistle it soft to the silver river,
Whistle it loud to the drumming sea,
Whistle it low to the moon and the morning,
Not to me,
Never to me.
For I'm swinging high in another country,
Swinging low .
Playing it easy, the dolphins follow me
Where I go .
Whistle it loud to the flood tide making,
Whistle it soft to the wheeling sun ,
Whistle it wild to my girl's heart - breaking;
She'll remember ,
She was the one .

Spring comes warm over Little River,
Storm comes black;
I was headed home when the Indian Giver
Took me back.
Whistle it high to the grey-beard breakers
Where the secret over the great shoals ran;
Whistle the world that was in my pocket
When I had pockets,
When I was a man



That bold line has an ethnic component which I'd like to replace, but the line, like the poem, perfectly expresses itself. Of course, the "Indian Giver" is God.

I have not been able to replace the phrase or the line with anything else that scans or rhymes. Otherwise, love the poem and the song, from the album "Bay of Fundy."

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 28 Feb 25 - 02:39 PM

> Is that your reference?

Yup. I don't know whether a relative, or perhaps her husband, had died of something nasty, and I thought it imprudent to ask.

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 25 - 02:23 PM

M t F:

Just checked Andy's web site and song "The Raven". What is the meaning of "they found he had a raven in his brain" ? Is that your reference?

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 28 Feb 25 - 12:47 PM

Advice from the trenches: Some songs ain't worth putting your head above the parapet for. I once sang Andy Roberts's Raven on the Roof, saw the thunderous expression on the face of a respected member of the audience in the front row when she heard the last verse, and haven't aired that song in public since.

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Feb 25 - 12:05 PM

If you sing it and a black person complains hopefully you will not sing it again and you will have your answer.
I would not take any notice of JOHN from Kemsing What is the point of possibly upsetting a black person,John, wont be there to pick up the pieces if you do take his advice., of course if you want to get negative feedback go ahead

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Feb 25 - 11:55 AM

Bad advice from John in Kemsing. If you have an instinct that something is wrong with it, then something probably is. Follow that instinct, change the words or don't sing the song. Don't spread the injury.

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST,John From Kemsing
Date: 28 Feb 25 - 10:20 AM

Black Auk,
          Don`t be hamstrung by all this woke bollocks. Just sing it as it was written and let the listeners decide whether they like it or not.
If you are cancelled consider it a badge of honour.

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST,Black Auk
Date: 27 Feb 25 - 08:54 AM

I guess I could argue that it refers to a bog moor...

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 25 - 04:00 AM

Why not ask a Black person

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 25 Feb 25 - 06:43 PM

Are crows thought of as constant and true? I thought that was the point of the use of "moor".

Robin

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Feb 25 - 02:38 PM

Saying a sweep is 'black as soot' is factuaL

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: DaveRo
Date: 25 Feb 25 - 02:22 PM

Saying a sweep is 'black as soot' is silly. And adding 'I'm sure' just to make it rhyme is feeble. Ask yourself - what is this comparison with a Moor supposed to imply? Just that he's dirty? Or more than that: unpleasant? frightful? Personally I'd leave it alone.

But changing the 'came' of DT to 'come' is an improvement IMO.

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Feb 25 - 01:43 PM

I suggested Crow, but Dave ro complained that it did not rhyme.
I think Nick Dows suggestion is acceptable...Girls come to the door I look black with soot I'm sure
I am constant and true as the day

Subject: RE: Is 'black as any moor' acceptable?
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 25 Feb 25 - 12:01 PM

No, it's not acceptable. Find something else that's black, there's a lot of dark things that are easy substitutes. Someone above suggested 'crow', which is what Nick Hart sings in his excellent version of Butter And Cheese And All.

https://nickhartmusic.bandcamp.com/track/butter-cheese