Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs

Subject: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Apr 25 - 10:44 AM

Martin sAid to his Man

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Apr 25 - 11:34 AM

The Barley Mow?

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Apr 25 - 11:38 AM

Anything by Cliff Richard

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: Hesk
Date: 08 Apr 25 - 03:12 AM

"Martin Said to His Man" is occasionally sung by myself and others in Hampshire UK. it is the kind of song that needs to be given a rest between each rendition, as it quickly loses its appeal without a long gap in between. Nevertheless it goes down well if performed robustly, and it is fun if the singer leaves the door of the room as the song comes to its end.
Other than that, most songs previously heard in our local folk clubs are still heard occasionally. However, no one wants to be the singer who is known as always singing the same song, and for that reason they all need a rest from time to time!

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Lang Johnnie Mor
Date: 08 Apr 25 - 05:06 AM

Anything traditional, and I can only speak about a few Scottish clubs.
I went to a "singaround / session" last year. The first guy sang "a song by Justin Hayward of the Moody Blues" - unaccompanied, and no, it didn't work, for me at least. Next was a lady from Holland who recited one of her own poems. Followed by "Yellow Submarine", accompanied by ukelele. I would have been up next, but left. There was a total number of 12 people in the room - I think there are 7 on the committee. I did go back a few months later, and it wasn't any better.
How the once mighty have fallen.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Apr 25 - 05:45 AM

Spencer The Rover? 24th of february?The Old Dun Cow?

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Apr 25 - 05:47 AM

Moving Day? Manchester Rambler?

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 08 Apr 25 - 05:56 AM

I sang 'The Old Dun Cow' last week at Louth Folk Club.

DC

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: Fred
Date: 08 Apr 25 - 06:51 AM

Manchester Ramblet I often include at my gigs, along with Dirty Old Town.

Fred

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: Fred
Date: 08 Apr 25 - 06:54 AM

Rambler even :)

Fred

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 08 Apr 25 - 09:54 AM

One reason many songs are no longer heard is they have been over exposed. The songs are good but if repeated too frequently they become stale. Many singers have a limited number of songs and don't make the effort to learn new songs.
I've heard people say things like "not the Fields of Athenry again"
it gets sung about once in 18 months in our club and is treated like an old friend, not that song we've every three weeks for the last year and are bored to death with with

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 08 Apr 25 - 10:30 AM

> "not the Fields of Athenry again"

*Agree*: it's taken me perhaps a year to persuade Herself that I may have learned it, but can no longer stand playing it. I've had to substitute Down by the Clareen's Mossy Banks, which I haven't worn out yet, to defend myself against earworms.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: Fred
Date: 08 Apr 25 - 10:51 AM

Heights Of Alma, a rousing Scottish folk song. YouTube if you haven't heard it. There's a wealth of stuff out there just waiting to be sung


Fred

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Apr 25 - 11:08 AM

spare me Caledonia sung in a trans atlantic accent,
but Trad songs seem to be out of fashion in folk clubs. personally i am happy with a mixture of trad songs musichall and contemporary. Ihave had a number of audience say tome nobody very much are singning trad songs these days

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Apr 25 - 02:26 PM

Depends very much on the club, as you are an occasional visitor to the UK I don't think that you are really in a position to make pronouncements on the state of the clubs or the songs/music performed there.

In Manchester for example, albeit years ago, some clubs where predominantly tradional, some where predominantly contemporary. I would suggest the same could be said of Leeds, Birmingham, London etc etc

Several of the songs you suggested where not being performed are being performed and by posters on here.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Apr 25 - 03:54 PM

But people come up to me and say they do not hear many people [guests] singing traditional songs.I am repeating what audience say to me. You too live in Ireland.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Duncan McNab
Date: 08 Apr 25 - 04:17 PM

Looking through the suggestions already made I am happy to say I regularly sing, Martin Said to his Man, The Barley Mow and The Old Dun Cow.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Peter Cripps
Date: 09 Apr 25 - 04:11 AM

This is not a new complaint! Martyn Wyndham-Read had the same issue 50+ years ago - he made an LP (remember those?) called "The Old Songs" which was a collection of songs no longer heard in folk clubs! Early One Morning, Lavender Blue, Ash Grove, No John No etc! The residents in the Care Homes where we perform certainly know them!

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: Hesk
Date: 09 Apr 25 - 05:58 AM

Peter, you have certainly hit the nail on the head. The songs you mentioned are seldom if ever heard in folk clubs, either now or in the past, (Going back to the seventies). However, they were heard on BBC radio programmes such as Singing Together, and appeared in piano music, and popular song books and heard from our parents and grandparents. I think there was a general move away from these well known songs in preference to the lesser known songs from the tradition, especially songs collected in England. Just to be clear, I am talking about clubs in the south and west of England. I am sure different rules apply in Scotland, Wales and Ireland.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Peter Cripps
Date: 09 Apr 25 - 06:16 AM

We love them! And so do our audiences!

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 09 Apr 25 - 07:41 AM

Aha! The care home repertoire - yes, mainly different from what is sung in folk clubs. Here in Scotland, it would be unusual, for example, to hear songs such as Skye Boat Song, Loch Lomond (in its usual version), Mairi's Wedding, Donald, where's your trousers, sung in folk clubs, though very popular for care homes. But bearing in mind the current "vintage" of care home residents (some of them younger than us performing!), other stuff from the 50s-70s goes down well - Elvis Presley, Buddy Holly, Beach Boys, Lonnie Donegan, and yes, Beatles.
There is a good mix of songs sung in folk clubs and sessions - looking through the list of songs sung in a recent session (yes, we are asked to write down what we are singing, just for the record), at least half were traditional or "in the tradition", but one Beatles song did creep in! And there are a couple of clubs and several festivals that specialise in Traditional song, e.g. Fife Traditional Singing Weekend, Cullerlie.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 09 Apr 25 - 09:12 AM

> spare me Caledonia sung in a trans atlantic accent

As it happens, I tried out The Mountains Of Mourne for the first time in a Zoom session last night, and was thanked by someone for not perpetrating the ususal offensive Stage Oirish accent. That's what comes from getting songs from hard copy, rather than listening to recordings .... whence the equally offensive Murkin accent I get annoyed at in alleged folk sessions these days.

End of rant. We now return you to your more measured comments.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 09 Apr 25 - 09:28 AM

Any song to do with Whaling (and rightly so).

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Apr 25 - 10:55 AM

whaling songs describe what happened, they do not necessarily glorify whaling, they also show the mistaken attitude of the past that resources were infinite. it depends how they are sung and how they are introduced

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 09 Apr 25 - 03:46 PM

If we go down that road Mike, there won't be an awful lot of trad songs left to sing.
Maybe that's why I'm hearing less and less traditional songs in my neck of the woods.
If I were to sing a song I think is no longer socially acceptable, I would try to put it in context. If I couldn't I wouldn't sing it.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Apr 25 - 12:09 AM

original carter family songs?

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 10 Apr 25 - 12:34 AM

Folk clubs give a chance for people to perform, whether they have a background of folk music or not. And even traditional singers can have wider musical interests.

Contemporary songs once brought a breath of fresh air to the limited repertoire of traditional songs. Now it is refreshing to hear a traditional song among more recent songs and pop hits.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Apr 25 - 12:57 AM

Reynard The Fox?

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 25 - 04:35 AM

At the Glenfarg Folk Club we have a diverse range of guest performers as well as good mix of resident singers. There is always someone commenting, " I've not heard that in years". So songs that were common place decades ago do crop up. Invariably, the reaction is a positive one when a golden oldie gets an airing.
I try not to repeat a song over the course of a year when singing at the club. I also try and mix the type of songs through self penned, traditional, funny, serious, music hall, topical... and golden oldies.
In the past few months I've heard 'The Wild Rover' sung on three different occasions - all with new interpretations.
The songs that were sung in the 50's and 60's do pop up every now and then and as a golden oldie myself, it is always good to hear them.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 10 Apr 25 - 05:18 AM

I mentioned whaling songs, but I could have mentioned songs about fox hunting, or songs such as 'The Maids of Australia' which promote toxic male attitudes towards women.
Keith Price said that, 'if we go down that road there won't be an awful lot of trad songs left to sing' and maybe he is right.
This thread asks for songs that are no longer heard in UK folk clubs. Personally, I would find it far more interesting to know why some songs fall out of favour. We know that social attitudes change over time. Things that were once acceptable can, with time, become unacceptable. And songs reflect these changes. So perhaps Keith is right and there will be groups of songs that are no longer deemed acceptable in the future.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Michae in Swansea
Date: 10 Apr 25 - 06:44 AM

Ban whaling, fox hunting, hare coursing etc; please. BUT don't ban the songs, they’re far too good.
Blessings

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 10 Apr 25 - 10:09 AM

Mike I think trad song will eventually go the same way as stand up comedy . When sexist, racist jokes were quite rightly considered not politically correct, comedians turned to alternatives such as observational comedy. We will have acoustic music which seems to be a definition of 'folk'

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 10 Apr 25 - 10:40 AM

Good point about whaling songs (a record of the practice rather than glorifying it), but I did Shoals of Herring recently, and wondered if younger audiences might now regard it as environmentally unsound practice. Some of the jargon/dialect words, painstakingly researched by McColl at the time, probably mean nothing to them either. But then what about all the classic coal mining songs, and the pit disaster ones in particular? We can’t pension them off just because some find (previous) exploitation of finite resources now unacceptable. At least we can still play the Foxhunter’s Slip Jig, without actually mentioning the title.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Apr 25 - 10:50 AM

Mike Yates Personally, I would find it far more interesting to know why some songs fall out of favour.
Then start a thread on it

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: Sol
Date: 10 Apr 25 - 11:17 AM

"Fiddlers Green"
"Whisk(e)y on a Sunday"
"Early Morning Rain"
"Leaving on a Jet Plane"
"Donna Donna"
"Streets Of London"
"Last Thing On My Mind"

All great songs popular at sessions in the 70s. All of which still pop up now & then.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 10 Apr 25 - 03:11 PM

> what about all the classic coal mining songs, and
> the pit disaster ones in particular?

We don't celebrate the tragedy: we mourn the dead. I used to have problems with choking up when doing the Ballad of Springhill.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 11 Apr 25 - 03:55 AM

Yes, and I would place all the lifeboat loss and maritime disaster songs in the same category. I’m not so sure though that our insatiable appetite for all things to do with the Titanic is straying into gratuitous morbid fascination. A thin line surely…

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 25 - 08:50 AM

"Fiddlers Green"
"Streets Of London"
"Last Thing On My Mind"

Yep. My new band has done three gigs with me in it, and we've done those three every time. Not in a folk club, admittedly.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 11 Apr 25 - 10:30 AM

I am interested in the part of the discussion that dealt with Whaling songs. I found myself considering a song that I used to sing in the 1960s but haven't sung much this century. After some consideration I decided that context is everything. The words of The Weary Whaling Grounds make it stand out as one of the finest songs of that era. Few songs set the listener into the heart of the story as well as the first verse of that song: -
If I had the wings of a gull, my boys,
I would spread ’em and fly home.
I’d leave old Greenland’s icy grounds
For of right whales there is none.
And the weather’s rough and the winds do blow
And there’s little comfort her.
I’d sooner be snug in a Deptford pub,
A-drinkin’ of strong beer.
I decided to introduce it by saying that I felt that I was part of the very end of the whaling story in England. I was working on a huge building site in the mid '60s and we were tasked with filling in the Surrey Commercial Docks in Deptford, the very docks that had been the home of a large whaling fleet and was to become a light industies and wharehousing park. I stated my abhorance of whaling but would not want to deny the horrors that that thses wonderful creatures were suffering and the harsh life that the whalers were forced to follow. If we treat it as an historic piece from a misquided past then I felt justified in relating the story and singing the song.

I feel that I was in a very different place when my closest friend sung The Jew's Garden at our folk club where I was the regular compere. Another long term friend, a Jewish man approached me at the end of the club to ask if I was going to allow anti-semitic songs to be sung at my club. I was flummoxed! I told him I would have to get back to him on the matter. At a later meeting, I told him that it would be a virtual imppossibilty for me to vet the repertoire of floor singers. Also that earlier that week, I had seen Al Pacino's wonderful portrayal of Shylock in the 2004 film of The Merchant of Venice in which he managed to evince a sympathetic portrayal of that character. We do have a problem with a range of topics in our literature, drama and historic and traditional song concerning our treament of wildlife, misogyny, racism, murder, rape, slavery, sexism - the list seems endless. Contextualising the songs in the way we introduce them would seem to be one way. There is certainly a proportion of folk songs that deserve to be ditched. The question is -"where do we draw the line. "

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: Sol
Date: 11 Apr 25 - 12:14 PM

***The question is -"where do we draw the line. "***

IMO, "the line" is up to the singer or composer of the song. Having said that, they don't get a carte blanche when they perform it. Some integrity and a bit of common sense should be adopted with regards to who is in your audience at the time. As the saying goes, "there's a time and place for everything".   
As a counterbalance, there's also the John Lydgate quote made famous by Abe Lincoln,"... you can't please all of the people all of the time" (truncated).
That's why you should be your own censor. There'll always be one Moaning Minnie no matter what you sing. Stuff 'em.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 11 Apr 25 - 03:59 PM

To pick up on some of the songs mentioned above... I'm speaking here purely about the folk clubs in London I frequent:

Martin Said to his Man - I've heard this sung once or twice at the London folk clubs I frequent, over the last few years. It's not common, that's true, but it's not unheard of.

Manchester Rambler - this gets sung from time to time. A lot of the rambling/trespass songs are finding new popularity among 20somthings. It tallies with the trespass movement.

'Shoals of Herring' is heard quite a bit, mainly because of its inclusion in Inside Llewyn Davis.

Whaling songs and mining songs still get sung, mainly because they are predominantly about having to do dangerous, shitty jobs for not much pay - something a lot of young people can relate to. Hunting songs on the other hand don't get sung, though I think I might have heard some of those rare songs that are sung from the animal's point of view.

I never hear 'The Jew's Garden' anymore: people know its blood libel origins so nobody sings it.

'Fields of Athenry' still gets sung (never liked it myself but each to their own)

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Sean O'Shea
Date: 11 Apr 25 - 05:02 PM

Sometime in the seventies,I suppose,I sang in a club in Exeter a traditional song called THE JEWS THEY CRUCIFIED HIM,which is a gentle and reflective number.Honestly,I practically had to be smuggled out of the club under a blanket to escape all the Gentiles who wanted to treat me in the same way for singing the song.You don't hear that song much in clubs nowadays!

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 12 Apr 25 - 05:07 AM

Thinking further about this, Ireland has a rich back catalogue of folk songs, many of which are pro Republican, commemorate past atrocities, injustices, potato famine, etc. I assume these are still sung in the clubs and pubs with no qualms, in the same way people in England seem happy to sing wartime songs (even Rule Britannia) as part of nostalgia. Does the passage of time lessen the contentious nature of certain songs, so rebel songs like The Wearing of the Green are no longer regarded as inciting hatred or insurrection?

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: Mo the caller
Date: 12 Apr 25 - 07:38 AM

I have similar qualms about some classical choir repertoire. We sang Messiah part 2 recently and the 'potter's vessel' rang only too topical.
Dixit Dominus is a bit bloodthirsty too.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Tom Patterson
Date: 12 Apr 25 - 11:23 AM

I was at the Fastnet Festival in Ireland a couple of years ago when one of the UK acts chose to sing Boston Harbour. It did not go down too well with the locals!

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 12 Apr 25 - 05:55 PM

Jerry, I've never ever heard Rule Britannia sung in a UK folk club. If I had, I would have walked out immediately. Regarding Irish rebel songs, I sang some with a band in the early 70s ( Wearing of the Green, Kevin Barry, Kelly the Boy from Killanne etc) and they were quite common but as the troubles progressed they became almost taboo, though still popular in places such as Coventry. However, there have been a number of songs written since that time that addressed the Irish situation without being explicitly partisan or jingoistic eg Song for Ireland and The Soldier.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 13 Apr 25 - 03:52 AM

I was just inferring that all the time we hear people singing Rule Britannia, including on TV broadcasts (Last Night Proms, etc), I see no reason why we should not let people sings Irish rebel songs without recrimination. I think the Irish songs, both melodically and lyrically, are much better anyway.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Apr 25 - 05:13 AM

I think the point you are missing is that Irish rebel songs can get the audience fighting with eaCH OTHER, AND AS ONE iRISH LANDLADY POINTED OUT - IT ALWAYS SEEMS TO BE THE IPEOPLE WHO CAN'T TAKE CARE OF THEMSELVES THAT GET HURT.
(scuse the capitals)
I seem to recall I had started singing On the One Road.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 13 Apr 25 - 01:48 PM

Fair enough, but never witnessed that myself. Too much drink seems to be more to blame, than lyrics lamenting past injustices to my mind.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Apr 25 - 03:35 PM

Well it wasn't really in folk clubs. it was when i was gigging Irish theme bars and Irish pubs. That particular one was in Nottingham, next to a police station. there were requests for Sean South, but the landlady was having none of it.

Theres a lot of folksongs from the early revival days that have gone missing. You don't hear Flora, Lilly of the West and east Virginia nowadays.
Wor Geordie's lost his penker
Sixteen Come Sunday

probably they get sung somewhere.