Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 22 Apr 25 - 10:03 PM

We watch as seasons come and go
But hard times always stay, we know
A hundred years long, you've been gone
Your song, Joe Hill, still carries on

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: Sol
Date: 22 Apr 25 - 05:57 PM

The Sandman's post - Joe Hill?

"From San Diego up to Maine,
In every mine and mill -
Where working men defend their rights
It's there you'll find Joe Hill."

He's still with us ;-)

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 22 Apr 25 - 04:29 PM

Joe Hill - sung at the April Singaround at Arnside Sailing Club!

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Apr 25 - 04:06 PM

Joe Hill ?

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 22 Apr 25 - 07:57 AM

I'd like to respond Henry, but Dick is right, it's thread drift.
Good subject though, maybe start your own thread.
Back to this subject.
The folk revival is totally artificial.We have spent hours on end singing and listening to folk music,at folk clubs, sessions, singarounds and festivals etc.When we're not listening live we play CDs, youtube and such.It's little wonder we get tired of some songs
Traditional singers/musicians never had so much music.They would never hear the songs and tunes as often as we do. For long enough songs were sung in the home with family and neighbours, occasionally.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: Sol
Date: 22 Apr 25 - 06:15 AM

I recall some famous comedian saying on The Johnny Carson Show that if he tells a joke on TV then that's it gone however Frank Sinatra however, can sing "My Way" a zillion times and each time the audience laps it up.
In the same vein, comedy songs have a short shelf life while most other songs, especially the ones with a bit of quality, can last forever. Comedy songs about topical subjects of the day become 'yesterday's papers' very quickly.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 22 Apr 25 - 04:55 AM

Yes, Keith, of course people should learn the songs/tunes at home. Some people are natural performers, but for others singing in public is a big step. You can sing a song perfectly 50 times in your bedroom, but it doesn't mean you can stand in front of an audience and remember the words! I have noticed that, on occasion, people who persevere are rewarded with greater applause than others who put on an, apparently effortless, polished performance.

As for songs no longer heard in folk clubs, topical songs can have a relatively brief life-span. Tom Paxton has written many songs inspired by news events - what he has called "short-shelf-life songs"- although sometimes topical songs take on a greater significance. I haven't heard any songs about Viet Nam, nuclear power or abortion recently. Anniversaries - the death of Jean de Menezes, for example - may bring some once-familiar songs back.

But any song you mention is likely to bring a response of, "I heard that last week!"

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Apr 25 - 02:33 AM

Thread Drift, can we stay on subject "Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs"

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Apr 25 - 05:04 PM

I'm with what Henry says in its entirety. I regularly attend a singaround which is very welcoming to the extent that any newcomers are very much encouraged to contribute. Anything goes but it's pretty obvious by what the regulars are singing and what goes down well. We get older pop songs, self-penned material, poetry, and mostly of a very high standard. As long as the regular folk scene material dominates and goes down well, as it does, then we prefer the variety and standard we aim for.
I too have been downhearted by poor use of a phone, but a young lass yesterday very reluctantly eventually had a go and she had a beautiful voice. She might just be encouraged by the response to have a go at the type of material that dominates. Either way it's a win win from our point of view. Casual drop-ins are always very complimentary at what they hear.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 21 Apr 25 - 03:10 PM

Guest,henryp "Singers and musicians have to start somewhere!
Yes ! at home. They should learn the songs/tunes there. Singing them in public is Where you hone the performance, not practise the song.
I've witnessed someone swipe across their ipad, then declare 'Oh, here's one I've never done before'

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Apr 25 - 02:07 PM

Someone sang "Modern Major General" at ours last time. It was very good and quite suitable I thought.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Apr 25 - 01:03 PM

And blast! And Fire!

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 21 Apr 25 - 05:03 AM

Singers and musicians have to start somewhere! Singarounds and sessions give them the opportunity.

Performance standards rise with experience and the example of better performers.

Repertoire varies widely, but I'm always relieved when somebody stands up to sing - and perform! - a traditional song.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Apr 25 - 04:22 AM

Idreamt I dwelled in Marble Halls
Lyrics
I dreamt I dwelt in marble halls
With vassels and serfs at my side
And of all who assembled within those walls
That I was the hope and the pride
I had riches all too great to count
And a high ancestral name
But I also dreamt which pleased me most
That you loved me still the same
That you loved me
You loved me still the same
That you loved me
You loved me still the same
I dreamt that suitors sought my hand
That knights upon bended knee
And with vows no maidens heart could withstand
They pledged their faith to me
And I dreamt that one of that noble host
Came forth my hand to claim
But I also dreamt which charmed me most
That you loved me still the same
That you loved me
You loved me still the same
That you loved me
You loved me still the same

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: r.padgett
Date: 21 Apr 25 - 03:45 AM

A lot of songs are still there, but I do think singing from a mobile phone is poor form

I researched songs I knew or should have and learnt or recorded. Remember the oral tradition needs YOU to learn not just the words but the nuances and stops acquired over time by others singers through constant singing in the aural/oral tradition

I went to Sheffield sessions on Sunday and a lad sang from his mobile ~ I had recorded the song 14 years ago and resurrected it recently ~ seems you sing one and it escalates like falling dominoes

Ray

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Apr 25 - 02:31 AM

How much is that doggy in the window?

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 25 - 03:19 PM

what do you mean- 'pick your genre'? poetry all night- cajun all night, jazz all night- each 'genre' as defined by the music police?- sounds dreadful

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Rob Mad Jock Wright
Date: 20 Apr 25 - 08:53 AM

If you want Good music , be it Trad Contemporary, Jazz , Blues, even Poetry, Cajun, Gospel Rock, and Pop come to the Twa Tams Open mic on a Sunday in Perth and you will get most of the above played and sung by a very high Standard of performers.

There is music on most nights just pick your genre ,you will not be disappointed.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Apr 25 - 04:18 PM

that's a point.
Its a while since I heard Drill Ye Tarriers Drill!

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 15 Apr 25 - 04:13 PM

> Well it wasn't really in folk clubs. it was when i was gigging Irish theme bars and Irish pubs. That particular one was in Nottingham, next to a police station. there were requests for Sean South, but the landlady was having none of it.

In 2022, the University of Limerick, the Traditional Song Forum and the Irish World Academy of Music and Dance jointly sponsored a conference at the University. On the day after the formal conference, a few of us who had stayed on were taken to visit a few significant locations in Limerick City, accompanied by relevant songs. One of the locations was a cemetery, and one of the songs sung there was Sean South of Garryowen. Irish rebel songs in general do indeed need to be treated with great circumspection nowadays but, having the song in my head from many years ago, in the special circumstances of remembrance in a graveyard, and learning that South himself had been an unpopular troublemaker in his home city, there was I, a Brit, joining in the song.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 15 Apr 25 - 05:57 AM

> Wor Geordie's lost his penker

That survives in the Spinners' version "Johnnie's lost his marble", which was carefully translated from the Geordie. The one bit I use from the original is "tarrier", which I take care to explain first.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Apr 25 - 04:09 PM

From Boston Harbour we set sail,
When it was blowing a devil of a gale,
With our ringtail set abaft the mizzen peak
And our Rule Britannia ploughing up the deep.
With a big bow-wow! Tow-row-row!
Fol de rol de ri do day!
Up comes the skipper from down below,
And he looks aloft and he looks alow,
And he looks alow and he looks aloft,
And its “Coil up your ropes there, fore and aft!”
Then down to his cabin he quickly crawls,
And unto his steward he loudly bawls,
“Go, mix me a glass that will make me cough,
For it's better weather here than it is up aloft.”
We poor sailors standing on the deck,
With the blasted rain all a-pouring down our necks;
Not a drop of grog would he to us afford,
But he damned our eyes at every other word.
Now the old beggar's dead and gone,
Darn his eyes, he left a son;
And if to us he doesn't prove frank,
We'll very soon make him walk the plank.
And one thing which we have to crave,
Is that he may have a watery grave,
So we'll heave him down into some dark hole,
Where the sharks'll have his body and the devil have his soul.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Apr 25 - 03:35 PM

Well it wasn't really in folk clubs. it was when i was gigging Irish theme bars and Irish pubs. That particular one was in Nottingham, next to a police station. there were requests for Sean South, but the landlady was having none of it.

Theres a lot of folksongs from the early revival days that have gone missing. You don't hear Flora, Lilly of the West and east Virginia nowadays.
Wor Geordie's lost his penker
Sixteen Come Sunday

probably they get sung somewhere.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 13 Apr 25 - 01:48 PM

Fair enough, but never witnessed that myself. Too much drink seems to be more to blame, than lyrics lamenting past injustices to my mind.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Apr 25 - 05:13 AM

I think the point you are missing is that Irish rebel songs can get the audience fighting with eaCH OTHER, AND AS ONE iRISH LANDLADY POINTED OUT - IT ALWAYS SEEMS TO BE THE IPEOPLE WHO CAN'T TAKE CARE OF THEMSELVES THAT GET HURT.
(scuse the capitals)
I seem to recall I had started singing On the One Road.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 13 Apr 25 - 03:52 AM

I was just inferring that all the time we hear people singing Rule Britannia, including on TV broadcasts (Last Night Proms, etc), I see no reason why we should not let people sings Irish rebel songs without recrimination. I think the Irish songs, both melodically and lyrically, are much better anyway.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 12 Apr 25 - 05:55 PM

Jerry, I've never ever heard Rule Britannia sung in a UK folk club. If I had, I would have walked out immediately. Regarding Irish rebel songs, I sang some with a band in the early 70s ( Wearing of the Green, Kevin Barry, Kelly the Boy from Killanne etc) and they were quite common but as the troubles progressed they became almost taboo, though still popular in places such as Coventry. However, there have been a number of songs written since that time that addressed the Irish situation without being explicitly partisan or jingoistic eg Song for Ireland and The Soldier.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Tom Patterson
Date: 12 Apr 25 - 11:23 AM

I was at the Fastnet Festival in Ireland a couple of years ago when one of the UK acts chose to sing Boston Harbour. It did not go down too well with the locals!

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: Mo the caller
Date: 12 Apr 25 - 07:38 AM

I have similar qualms about some classical choir repertoire. We sang Messiah part 2 recently and the 'potter's vessel' rang only too topical.
Dixit Dominus is a bit bloodthirsty too.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 12 Apr 25 - 05:07 AM

Thinking further about this, Ireland has a rich back catalogue of folk songs, many of which are pro Republican, commemorate past atrocities, injustices, potato famine, etc. I assume these are still sung in the clubs and pubs with no qualms, in the same way people in England seem happy to sing wartime songs (even Rule Britannia) as part of nostalgia. Does the passage of time lessen the contentious nature of certain songs, so rebel songs like The Wearing of the Green are no longer regarded as inciting hatred or insurrection?

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Sean O'Shea
Date: 11 Apr 25 - 05:02 PM

Sometime in the seventies,I suppose,I sang in a club in Exeter a traditional song called THE JEWS THEY CRUCIFIED HIM,which is a gentle and reflective number.Honestly,I practically had to be smuggled out of the club under a blanket to escape all the Gentiles who wanted to treat me in the same way for singing the song.You don't hear that song much in clubs nowadays!

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 11 Apr 25 - 03:59 PM

To pick up on some of the songs mentioned above... I'm speaking here purely about the folk clubs in London I frequent:

Martin Said to his Man - I've heard this sung once or twice at the London folk clubs I frequent, over the last few years. It's not common, that's true, but it's not unheard of.

Manchester Rambler - this gets sung from time to time. A lot of the rambling/trespass songs are finding new popularity among 20somthings. It tallies with the trespass movement.

'Shoals of Herring' is heard quite a bit, mainly because of its inclusion in Inside Llewyn Davis.

Whaling songs and mining songs still get sung, mainly because they are predominantly about having to do dangerous, shitty jobs for not much pay - something a lot of young people can relate to. Hunting songs on the other hand don't get sung, though I think I might have heard some of those rare songs that are sung from the animal's point of view.

I never hear 'The Jew's Garden' anymore: people know its blood libel origins so nobody sings it.

'Fields of Athenry' still gets sung (never liked it myself but each to their own)

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: Sol
Date: 11 Apr 25 - 12:14 PM

***The question is -"where do we draw the line. "***

IMO, "the line" is up to the singer or composer of the song. Having said that, they don't get a carte blanche when they perform it. Some integrity and a bit of common sense should be adopted with regards to who is in your audience at the time. As the saying goes, "there's a time and place for everything".   
As a counterbalance, there's also the John Lydgate quote made famous by Abe Lincoln,"... you can't please all of the people all of the time" (truncated).
That's why you should be your own censor. There'll always be one Moaning Minnie no matter what you sing. Stuff 'em.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 11 Apr 25 - 10:30 AM

I am interested in the part of the discussion that dealt with Whaling songs. I found myself considering a song that I used to sing in the 1960s but haven't sung much this century. After some consideration I decided that context is everything. The words of The Weary Whaling Grounds make it stand out as one of the finest songs of that era. Few songs set the listener into the heart of the story as well as the first verse of that song: -
If I had the wings of a gull, my boys,
I would spread ’em and fly home.
I’d leave old Greenland’s icy grounds
For of right whales there is none.
And the weather’s rough and the winds do blow
And there’s little comfort her.
I’d sooner be snug in a Deptford pub,
A-drinkin’ of strong beer.
I decided to introduce it by saying that I felt that I was part of the very end of the whaling story in England. I was working on a huge building site in the mid '60s and we were tasked with filling in the Surrey Commercial Docks in Deptford, the very docks that had been the home of a large whaling fleet and was to become a light industies and wharehousing park. I stated my abhorance of whaling but would not want to deny the horrors that that thses wonderful creatures were suffering and the harsh life that the whalers were forced to follow. If we treat it as an historic piece from a misquided past then I felt justified in relating the story and singing the song.

I feel that I was in a very different place when my closest friend sung The Jew's Garden at our folk club where I was the regular compere. Another long term friend, a Jewish man approached me at the end of the club to ask if I was going to allow anti-semitic songs to be sung at my club. I was flummoxed! I told him I would have to get back to him on the matter. At a later meeting, I told him that it would be a virtual imppossibilty for me to vet the repertoire of floor singers. Also that earlier that week, I had seen Al Pacino's wonderful portrayal of Shylock in the 2004 film of The Merchant of Venice in which he managed to evince a sympathetic portrayal of that character. We do have a problem with a range of topics in our literature, drama and historic and traditional song concerning our treament of wildlife, misogyny, racism, murder, rape, slavery, sexism - the list seems endless. Contextualising the songs in the way we introduce them would seem to be one way. There is certainly a proportion of folk songs that deserve to be ditched. The question is -"where do we draw the line. "

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 25 - 08:50 AM

"Fiddlers Green"
"Streets Of London"
"Last Thing On My Mind"

Yep. My new band has done three gigs with me in it, and we've done those three every time. Not in a folk club, admittedly.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 11 Apr 25 - 03:55 AM

Yes, and I would place all the lifeboat loss and maritime disaster songs in the same category. I’m not so sure though that our insatiable appetite for all things to do with the Titanic is straying into gratuitous morbid fascination. A thin line surely…

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 10 Apr 25 - 03:11 PM

> what about all the classic coal mining songs, and
> the pit disaster ones in particular?

We don't celebrate the tragedy: we mourn the dead. I used to have problems with choking up when doing the Ballad of Springhill.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: Sol
Date: 10 Apr 25 - 11:17 AM

"Fiddlers Green"
"Whisk(e)y on a Sunday"
"Early Morning Rain"
"Leaving on a Jet Plane"
"Donna Donna"
"Streets Of London"
"Last Thing On My Mind"

All great songs popular at sessions in the 70s. All of which still pop up now & then.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Apr 25 - 10:50 AM

Mike Yates Personally, I would find it far more interesting to know why some songs fall out of favour.
Then start a thread on it

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 10 Apr 25 - 10:40 AM

Good point about whaling songs (a record of the practice rather than glorifying it), but I did Shoals of Herring recently, and wondered if younger audiences might now regard it as environmentally unsound practice. Some of the jargon/dialect words, painstakingly researched by McColl at the time, probably mean nothing to them either. But then what about all the classic coal mining songs, and the pit disaster ones in particular? We can’t pension them off just because some find (previous) exploitation of finite resources now unacceptable. At least we can still play the Foxhunter’s Slip Jig, without actually mentioning the title.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 10 Apr 25 - 10:09 AM

Mike I think trad song will eventually go the same way as stand up comedy . When sexist, racist jokes were quite rightly considered not politically correct, comedians turned to alternatives such as observational comedy. We will have acoustic music which seems to be a definition of 'folk'

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Michae in Swansea
Date: 10 Apr 25 - 06:44 AM

Ban whaling, fox hunting, hare coursing etc; please. BUT don't ban the songs, they’re far too good.
Blessings

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 10 Apr 25 - 05:18 AM

I mentioned whaling songs, but I could have mentioned songs about fox hunting, or songs such as 'The Maids of Australia' which promote toxic male attitudes towards women.
Keith Price said that, 'if we go down that road there won't be an awful lot of trad songs left to sing' and maybe he is right.
This thread asks for songs that are no longer heard in UK folk clubs. Personally, I would find it far more interesting to know why some songs fall out of favour. We know that social attitudes change over time. Things that were once acceptable can, with time, become unacceptable. And songs reflect these changes. So perhaps Keith is right and there will be groups of songs that are no longer deemed acceptable in the future.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 25 - 04:35 AM

At the Glenfarg Folk Club we have a diverse range of guest performers as well as good mix of resident singers. There is always someone commenting, " I've not heard that in years". So songs that were common place decades ago do crop up. Invariably, the reaction is a positive one when a golden oldie gets an airing.
I try not to repeat a song over the course of a year when singing at the club. I also try and mix the type of songs through self penned, traditional, funny, serious, music hall, topical... and golden oldies.
In the past few months I've heard 'The Wild Rover' sung on three different occasions - all with new interpretations.
The songs that were sung in the 50's and 60's do pop up every now and then and as a golden oldie myself, it is always good to hear them.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Apr 25 - 12:57 AM

Reynard The Fox?

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 10 Apr 25 - 12:34 AM

Folk clubs give a chance for people to perform, whether they have a background of folk music or not. And even traditional singers can have wider musical interests.

Contemporary songs once brought a breath of fresh air to the limited repertoire of traditional songs. Now it is refreshing to hear a traditional song among more recent songs and pop hits.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Apr 25 - 12:09 AM

original carter family songs?

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 09 Apr 25 - 03:46 PM

If we go down that road Mike, there won't be an awful lot of trad songs left to sing.
Maybe that's why I'm hearing less and less traditional songs in my neck of the woods.
If I were to sing a song I think is no longer socially acceptable, I would try to put it in context. If I couldn't I wouldn't sing it.

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Apr 25 - 10:55 AM

whaling songs describe what happened, they do not necessarily glorify whaling, they also show the mistaken attitude of the past that resources were infinite. it depends how they are sung and how they are introduced

Subject: RE: Songs no longer heard in uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 09 Apr 25 - 09:28 AM

Any song to do with Whaling (and rightly so).