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Blues vs Rap

The Shambles 26 Jan 00 - 09:30 AM
Terry Allan Hall 26 Jan 00 - 09:52 AM
Linda Kelly 26 Jan 00 - 10:09 AM
Terry Allan Hall 26 Jan 00 - 10:15 AM
Rick Fielding 26 Jan 00 - 10:25 AM
Jon W. 26 Jan 00 - 11:14 AM
GUEST,CASEY @50 26 Jan 00 - 11:35 AM
Caitrin 26 Jan 00 - 11:43 AM
Terry Allan Hall 26 Jan 00 - 12:51 PM
GUEST,Neil Lowe 26 Jan 00 - 01:17 PM
Amos 26 Jan 00 - 02:10 PM
Skipjack K8 26 Jan 00 - 02:16 PM
GUEST,Graeme Currie 26 Jan 00 - 02:30 PM
Steve Latimer 26 Jan 00 - 02:32 PM
Rick Fielding 26 Jan 00 - 03:14 PM
Caitrin 26 Jan 00 - 03:17 PM
Amos 26 Jan 00 - 03:25 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 26 Jan 00 - 03:58 PM
MK 26 Jan 00 - 04:14 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Jan 00 - 05:24 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Jan 00 - 05:27 PM
Amos 26 Jan 00 - 05:32 PM
GUEST,marcelloblues 26 Jan 00 - 06:10 PM
Caitrin 26 Jan 00 - 06:29 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Jan 00 - 06:39 PM
GUEST,Terapln 26 Jan 00 - 06:56 PM
grgptrsn 26 Jan 00 - 07:42 PM
grgptrsn 26 Jan 00 - 07:46 PM
Amos 26 Jan 00 - 08:00 PM
Mark Clark 26 Jan 00 - 08:05 PM
GUEST,ddw 26 Jan 00 - 08:55 PM
grgptrsn 26 Jan 00 - 09:48 PM
ddw 26 Jan 00 - 10:10 PM
Barry Finn 26 Jan 00 - 10:52 PM
MK 26 Jan 00 - 11:26 PM
Rick Fielding 26 Jan 00 - 11:34 PM
Mbo 26 Jan 00 - 11:40 PM
Mbo 26 Jan 00 - 11:44 PM
Caitrin 27 Jan 00 - 09:59 AM
GUEST,Mbo 27 Jan 00 - 10:22 AM
Easy Rider 27 Jan 00 - 10:29 AM
Caitrin 27 Jan 00 - 10:43 AM
Terry Allan Hall 27 Jan 00 - 10:47 AM
Guy Wolff 27 Jan 00 - 11:43 AM
M. Ted (inactive) 27 Jan 00 - 01:16 PM
MK 27 Jan 00 - 02:05 PM
The Shambles 27 Jan 00 - 02:17 PM
Amos 27 Jan 00 - 02:27 PM
M. Ted (inactive) 27 Jan 00 - 02:39 PM
Amos 27 Jan 00 - 02:50 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Jan 00 - 03:40 PM
Chet W. 27 Jan 00 - 04:10 PM
M 27 Jan 00 - 05:37 PM
Amos 27 Jan 00 - 05:43 PM
Chet W. 27 Jan 00 - 06:15 PM
Amos 27 Jan 00 - 06:18 PM
Caitrin 27 Jan 00 - 06:20 PM
Chet W. 27 Jan 00 - 07:43 PM
The Shambles 28 Jan 00 - 02:51 PM
Caitrin 28 Jan 00 - 04:36 PM
The Shambles 28 Jan 00 - 05:31 PM
Mbo 28 Jan 00 - 05:49 PM
M. Ted (inactive) 04 Feb 00 - 11:57 AM
Amos 04 Feb 00 - 12:10 PM
M. Ted (inactive) 04 Feb 00 - 12:46 PM
Tchaikovsky 04 Feb 00 - 01:07 PM
M. Ted (inactive) 04 Feb 00 - 01:28 PM
Amos 04 Feb 00 - 01:38 PM
Chet W. 04 Feb 00 - 10:13 PM
Chet W. 04 Feb 00 - 10:17 PM
Rick Fielding 05 Feb 00 - 12:30 AM
GUEST,MCSquared 05 Feb 00 - 12:32 AM
Tchaikovsky 05 Feb 00 - 02:56 AM
Chet W. 05 Feb 00 - 08:04 AM
Tchaikovsky 05 Feb 00 - 06:01 PM
Chet W. 06 Feb 00 - 07:16 PM
Lady McMoo 07 Feb 00 - 10:49 AM
Mbo 07 Feb 00 - 11:01 AM
M. Ted (inactive) 07 Feb 00 - 12:39 PM
GUEST,ryan 07 Apr 05 - 05:48 PM
Bobert 07 Apr 05 - 07:44 PM
jpk 07 Apr 05 - 08:29 PM
GUEST,BILLY 07 Apr 05 - 09:51 PM
Cromdubh 09 Apr 05 - 01:30 PM
shepherdlass 09 Apr 05 - 05:11 PM
M.Ted 10 Apr 05 - 12:27 AM
MurkeyChris 10 Apr 05 - 07:09 PM
MurkeyChris 10 Apr 05 - 07:12 PM
John Hardly 10 Apr 05 - 07:51 PM
GUEST 10 Apr 05 - 11:15 PM
JohnInKansas 11 Apr 05 - 10:10 AM
Azizi 11 Apr 05 - 10:49 AM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 11 Apr 05 - 11:10 AM
Stu 11 Apr 05 - 02:58 PM
Azizi 11 Apr 05 - 04:34 PM
GUEST,anonamys 13 Apr 05 - 12:22 PM
GUEST,anomanis 13 Apr 05 - 12:24 PM
Firecat 13 Apr 05 - 04:41 PM
s6k 13 Apr 05 - 05:00 PM
George Papavgeris 13 Apr 05 - 05:17 PM
GUEST,moocowpoo 13 Apr 05 - 08:21 PM
s6k 14 Apr 05 - 04:18 AM
s6k 14 Apr 05 - 04:19 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Apr 05 - 07:34 PM
s6k 15 Apr 05 - 04:18 AM
shepherdlass 15 Apr 05 - 07:16 AM
s6k 15 Apr 05 - 09:18 AM
GUEST,Anominis 15 Apr 05 - 11:55 AM
GUEST,Jack Frost 15 Apr 05 - 12:31 PM
GUEST,Jess 15 Apr 05 - 06:01 PM
GUEST,dodobird 15 Apr 05 - 08:05 PM
GUEST,dodobird 15 Apr 05 - 08:26 PM
GUEST,dodobird 15 Apr 05 - 08:28 PM
Azizi 25 Apr 05 - 09:14 AM
Azizi 04 May 05 - 10:02 PM
Azizi 04 May 05 - 10:24 PM
Azizi 04 May 05 - 10:32 PM
GUEST,alexander 28 Apr 12 - 10:40 PM
GUEST,Hookey Wole 28 Apr 12 - 11:00 PM
Bobert 29 Apr 12 - 09:03 AM
matt milton 30 Apr 12 - 07:00 AM
GUEST,josepp 30 Apr 12 - 01:19 PM
Bobert 30 Apr 12 - 07:20 PM
matt milton 01 May 12 - 05:26 AM
Bobert 01 May 12 - 09:11 AM
Bonzo3legs 01 May 12 - 09:22 AM
Stringsinger 01 May 12 - 12:24 PM
GUEST,josepp 01 May 12 - 01:39 PM
matt milton 01 May 12 - 04:41 PM
GUEST,josepp 01 May 12 - 05:55 PM
Bobert 01 May 12 - 09:22 PM
GUEST 02 May 12 - 01:54 AM
JohnInKansas 02 May 12 - 05:43 AM
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Subject: Blues vs Rap
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 09:30 AM

I am going to generalise wildly here, for the purpose of discussion. Why is it that those who love 'The Blues' hate 'Rap' and why do those that love 'Rap' hate 'The Blues'?

It seems strange, as I think the root of the cultural reasons for both forms is partly away of signalling, an alienation from one culture and to reinforce an alternative one. I can understand that but the musical content of one, I find a delight and the musical content of the other I find leaves me cold. I don't understand that?

In a strictly musical sense 'Rap' may be limited and repetitive but I have heard that criticism levelled at 'The Blues' too. The subject matter of many blues songs too, would not be described as Politically Correct either.

Could it be that the origins of one are entirely urban, is there such a thing as rural 'Rap'? The other moved in to the urban areas but had most of its origins in a rural (folk) setting? I have deduced that a lot of the Mudcat's contributors, whilst liking 'The Blues' do not like 'Rap' (even to the extent of introducing a C, to the word), could this be part of the reason?

Will 'Rap' ever find the wide acceptance that 'The Blues' eventually did?

I have tended to concentrate on the first part of the question; I would also welcome views on the latter as I am less sure of that part. Maybe, do not like, would be better than hate?


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Terry Allan Hall
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 09:52 AM

A few generalities...not to be taken as "gospel"...

Blues is the music of the working man. It has many names...For instance, if it's sung by white folks, it's "country" music (as opposed to the homogenized pablum on the "country" stations...think instead Johnny Cash, Hank Williams Sr., Merle Haggard, Jimmie Rodgers, etc...as opposed to Garth Brookes, The (new) Dixie Chicks, etc.) If it's sung by a black person, it's just called "blues". I've heard it many times referred to as "the song of a good man feelin' down." Blues usually uplifts the soul.

Rap is the non-music of the criminal class. It has no melody, and rarely, if ever, uplifts the soul...instead it celebrates the mistreatment/destruction of women, children and common decency. Defenders of rap contend that it represents (thru music) the future all blacks must face...Fortunately, intelligent people (of all skin hues) realize that it is simply filth aimed at the lowest mentality, courtesy of the record companies' thoughtful exploitation of the "oppressed".


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 10:09 AM

so you don't much care for rap then, Terry???


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Terry Allan Hall
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 10:15 AM

I avoid filth in all forms. When I muck out stalls, I wear rubber boots, too.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 10:25 AM

I started a thread a few months ago about urban black music, and was amazed at how passionate it got. I won't "blue clicky" it here because I think most Catters enjoy the "current debates" rather than looking at what people had to say about an issue "back when".

Glad you started this Shambles. There will probably be some heartfelt and impassioned writing, and to me, that's where Mudcat really shines.

As to your query about whether rap will enjoy the widespread acceptance that blues has? It most definitely already has! Millions of folks, urban and even some rural, have embraced it as "their music". Now whether it will become safe enough to be imported into white mainstream culture? Don't know. We've certainly had no problems lifting what we want from other cultures, while dismissing the rest of that culture. I'm a prime offender, as I love playing and singing blues, and prefer foreign foods. It's just the way of the world.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Jon W.
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 11:14 AM

I have to generally agree with Terry, and with Rick regarding the acceptance factor. However, when I have heard rap (I don't listen to it on purpose) I feel as though the performers would just as soon see me dead. There are some exceptions I suppose, though I think that most of them have made their names in other endeavors (acting or sports, for example)and aren't serious rappers. A lot of white teenagers, including a couple of my daughters, seem to enjoy it.

Blues to me is mostly uplifting because it almost always has a sense of humor. I can detect very little or no humor in rap, just anger.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,CASEY @50
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 11:35 AM

The problem is not the music----IT'S THE CONTENT.

Casey


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Caitrin
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 11:43 AM

Rap can't really be characterized as just one form. The stuff Terry is talking about is "gangsta" rap. Yes, it's terrible stuff. There are a lot of other kinds of rap, though. Some, for instance, are just pop. Will Smith, for instance, is just silly. There are also those that have a very legitimate message and convey it well. Some of Erykah Badu's music is rap, and it is a celebration of her culture and womanhood. Coolio's "Gangsta' Paradise" was an expression of the despair lots of young blacks feel without suggesting that people kill each other. Not all rap is Tupac.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Terry Allan Hall
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 12:51 PM

To be a fair man, I went to the trouble of putting a C-90 cassette in my stereo, turning to the local rap station, recording & listening to an hour and a half of this "music", I've found:

references of violence to women, including rape-glorification...71 instances

"popping a cap" (murder by hand-gun)...43 instances

drive-by-shooting as a sporting event...34 instances

selling dope to children...33 instances

complaining that "whitey" hates "brothers", and keeps same in the ghetto...45 instances

anything of a "positive" nature (hard work'll make you a success, love your fellow man, be kind to people, respect the elderly, etc.)...0 instances

BTW, according to their ads, this station DOES NOT play "gangsta" rap...this is the "mainstream" stuff.

I believe I'll stick with Leadbelly, B.B. King, Tracy Chapman, George Benson, Jimi Hendrix, Lowell Fulson, and the many other great black musicians who've made a cultural contribution to our world...life is too short to waste on filth.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,Neil Lowe
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 01:17 PM

Interesting observations, although I wouldn't necessarily agree with all of them. First off, I love blues and I can tolerate rap - at times I can say I like some of it. The "groove" rap gets into occasionally can have an entrancing effect. Although I don't enthusiastically embrace it, I appreciate the fact that rap is its own genre, an outgrowth of seemingly random elements that combined in just the right way to produce something different. I also think there are creative and unique (abeit repetitive) uses of sound being employed in rap music (this coming from someone who can broadly define music to include the sounds a trash compacter makes).

Mostly, though, I listen to rap for social and ccultural perspective - to stay informed by keeping a finger on the pulse of popular trend. In that respect, Shambles, maybe you hit upon the reason for the disparity you observe: that blues has roots in a rural/agricultural setting, while rap seems to be primarily an urban phenomenon. Another reason may be an insular lack of exposure to a variety of influences. If I had not had an uncle who had taken enough interest in my budding musical tastes to expose me at an impressionable age to the music of Jimmy Reed, Mozart, Bobby Bare, Dylan, Frank Zappa, Coltrane, and The Doors (sometimes all in one sitting), I may not have had the liberal perspective on what constitutes music - and what has musical value - that I have now.

As to general acceptance...hmmmm. There are a lot of kids, regardless of race, color, creed, etc. who seem to be enthralled with rap. When they eventually become gainfully employed, independent, and firmly ensconsed in the middle class as upstanding citizens of the community, they will bring their musical memories with them. I did. Rock 'n' Roll was once reviled by parents as being "evil." The children who grew up with it are now parents themselves, and as they matured, rock matured and gained a modicum of respectability. If some popular rappers can continue to make music when they are sixty years old, rap may well gain a standard of respectability (or at least acceptance)itself.

Is rap popular because its (mature) listeners identify with it - hearing echoes and seeing reflections of their own experiences - or does rap's message function as a "standard" against which people try to gauge their lives? Media analysts constantly try to determine whether the stuff being churned out influences consumer choices, or if consumer choices influence the stuff to be churned out. As it is with most things, the two are probably not mutually exclusive: the choices made are the result of a complicated interaction (that thankfully/hopefully will never be fully understood) between the consumer and the thing consumed.

In any event, rap has been absorbed into the corporate fold, homogenized and diluted for mass consumption, and any substantial value or influence it had as a catalyst for political change or revolution has been relegated to the role of serving as a marketing vehicle for selling the latest fashionwear and beverage product. The powers that be learned forty-odd years ago that the best way to diffuse a socio-cultural revolution was to sell it for profit. Usurp its symbolic images and manufacture them for mass consumption. When everybody's wearing beads and bells, it's hard to maintain the "us versus them" lines of demarcation.

Neil Lowe (with reference to Marshall McLuhan's Understanding Media)


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 02:10 PM

Here's the thing for me. The blues celebrates the soul up against adversity; with most blues you get a sense that despite despair, the voice is one of perseverance, finding humor in adversity, and forging on; even the most depressed blues lines (jump in the river an drown) seem to reflect a committment not to do so -- to make something out of despair.

Rap, on the other hand is purely adversarial, resorts to the vernacular of hatred instead of humor, of sexism instead of sexuality, and (from the samples I have heard, which are not inclusive) seem to reflect a committment to make nothing out of things, others, and life in general. Rap tends to trash life, where the blues elevates it to something worth singing about even in its low times.

Compare:

Bessie Smith (singing): You been a goood ol' wagon, daddy, but you done broke down.

IceBerg (or whoever) (yellin): Git DOWN bitch!! Yo' f##ckin git muckin' sh@@t HO!! Damn!

See what I mean?

A.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 02:16 PM

I'll come clean and admit to having 'Rappers Delight' by the Sugarhill Gang in my collection. I think it was about 1979/80 or so, and I still think it's a good record.

It was the first instance of rap that I heard, and I liked it. It features, however, spoken words over a melody. The next example I bought was 'Wordy RappingHood' by a spin of group of Talking Heads. Again, very witty words spoken over a strong beat melody. It still sounds good.

But then rap got hijacked by disaffected (understandably) black youth, and was, as said above, pimped by the record companies.

Blues were blues, and still are. Rap ain't traditional (Ha) rap no mo'....... and they can shove it!


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,Graeme Currie
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 02:30 PM

I want to complain about ignorant racism such as Terry Alan Hall's. Briefly, rap is talking over beats and sounds. It has its roots in dub toasting if I can rely on pop music history books, like Subcultures by Dick Hebdige, and the general knowledge of my once teenage self. The content is the expression of the individual artist, the tradition, community and of course commercial considerations come inot it. I find Hip Hop music to be some of the most exciting and musically interesting that there is. I find masses of energy and creativity there as well as social and political awareness. It makes me dance and simultaneously informs me about black people's struggles. I call that good. I don't know what Mr Hall got hold of but I recommend he check out (off the top of my head, I'm no expert or big fan or anything, just a Scottish boy) Boogie Down Productions - for example the tracks Stop the Violence, Illegal Business - and A Tribe Called Quest. Has he never heard of Lauryn Hill either? My God there are German 'girl' bands who rap (Tic Tac Toe anyone.) But even to dismiss the stuff that is about guns and rape and drugs is to turn a heartless unchristian eye to the sufferring of our fellow human beings by denying the reality of the present situation. Mr Hall how many of your friends have been shot? How many take drugs? How many are in gangs? If they were, if you and they had been born into that kind of an environment how positive do you think you would all be? What kind of music would you have been listening to as a child and a teenager? If you want to improve the world you should try to empty your heart of some of that hatred. Let love in. Perhaps you should reconsider your blanket condemnation of rap on the basis of these points.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 02:32 PM

I'm goin' down to shoot my old lady, you know I caught her messin' with another man. -Jimi Hendrix.

Terry Allan, I'm a blues fan, but just listening to my collection for an hour and a half would probably result in the same statistics, other than drive by shootings which is a new rage. And no, I don't listen to strange Blues artists, but the lyrics of such greats as Mississippi John Hurt (Frankie), Robert Johnson (32-20 Blues) Howlin' Wolf (Fourty-Four), Muddy Waters (Walkin in the park) and many, many more depict an acceptance of violence in the culture of the performer. I'm a non violent person, but I love the music, not the message. I disagree with the inherant violence in rap, but if I liked the music I would listen to it as well. My standards are high enough that Ice T or Missippi John Hurt or Willie Nelson singing about killing someone is not going to make me want to do it.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 03:14 PM

Blues so often expresses the emotions of "losing". Rap often says that "winning" is possible. I guess if the reality of your world is gang-war, conflict, crack and prison,...then killing, rather than being killed, is a form of "winning". The music ain't pretty, and it ain't positive, but it's damn relevant. Obviously more relevant to young blacks than their mothers' and grandmothers' "Jesus" songs.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Caitrin
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 03:17 PM

There are probably as many violent folk songs as there are rap (if not more, just by virtue of being around longer). For instance, check out the "Songs of Vengeance" thread.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 03:25 PM

Indeed, violence is the theme of folkmusic going back to Beowulf. And rap as a _form_ certainly qualifies. On the other hand it is one thing to mourn violence, another to craft lessons from it (Tell Ol' Bill, when he comes home, to let them downtown wimmin alone) and something else altogether to glorify it. The only folk song I can think of that does the latter is the Rangers Fight Song, which incites the worst kind of brutality against enemies. But they are a rare exception, where in Rap they seem to be getting more and more the rule.

As for the "hard streets" argument, diarrhea is real, too, but I don't think I'll sing about it. (Not an original line, I'm sorry to say).


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 03:58 PM

Although not a great lover of negro spirituals, gospel music or jazz, I do love the blues; and some spiritual, gospel and jazz music is very good listening. Certain pieces stay with me as inspirational and memorable music. I am sorry to say that to me Rap is not music, more like rhythmic poetry. I can see that mind numbing anapaestic poetry may be enjoyed by some people; but have found the vast majority of Rap poems I have heard are neither inspirational or memorable. They are in fact generally considered a noisy nuisance by most people; and when played loudly, the reason I have been driven out of music shops and stores without making a purchase.. Yours,(the ancient music critic) Aye.Dave


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: MK
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 04:14 PM

Well RAP is a real sore spot for me, and I will admit to be highly opinionated and biased against it......so take my opinion with a grain of salt...but I feel compelled to express it here.

I have personally never considered RAP a valid musical form. I have no respect for anyone who can recite ''nursery rhymes'' on a sub-cultural level to a drum track, with a little bit of bass, and scratchy bullshit added in as coloring, nor do I have any respect for those who really enjoy this kind of music and have it booming and blasting out of their cars --and I use the term MUSIC very very loosely.

There is no comparison of RAP and Blues. They are two entirely separate entities as far as I am concerned. I do consider Blues a very valid musical form, and one that has spawned many offshoots and influenced countless musicians and composers.

To me RAP, is the ''crack cocaine'' of music. More often than not, RAP tunes perpetrate and glorify violence, cop killing, wife beating, racism, sexism......and don't even get me started on the whole ''Gangsta Rap'' thing.

I must confess that I crack a devious little smile on my face, whenever I hear that a Rapper has been blown away...or the head of a Rap label has been arrested on gun, drug or murder charges. It just reinforces everything I feel about Rap. This ''music'' is absolute garbage, and belongs where it originated --in the gutter.

Rap insults my intelligence.

Others may agree. Others may vehemently disagree. To each his own.


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Subject: Lyr Add: WRAP IT UP (Gino Lupari)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 05:24 PM

Get hold of Four Men and a Dog's CD Narking Mad, and listen to Gino Lupari's Wrap it Up

You get horrible racist sexist cliched country music, and you get stuff that makes you weep, it's so good and true.And you get stuff that is in between.

You could say the same kind of thing about any type of music. There was probably some great music in some of those Nazi beer halls.

Here's some of Gino's Lupari's rap:

Now listen you people
better take this down,
I'm the Bodhran player
and I'm back in town.
It's me lays down the rhythm
for the diddley I de dee.
Ain't no Flashy Fiddlers any good without me.
I can do it on the Bodhran,
I can do it on the Bones.
I don't need no fancy drum kit
like the Rolling Stones.
I'm a raker, I'm a shaker, I can make that white top hum,
I'm the man who puts the Iddery in the skiddery I de dum.
Just set up the liquor, make sure there's enough
Then clear the decks for action,
let me strut my stuff.

Hear me talking,
Let's go walking.

Now the fiddle's fine and dandy,
it's the voice of Irish folk,
and if you've got abanjo handy,
he can make the music smoke,
Throw in thye melodeon, you've gotta have a box -
and you'ver the making of a session,
but it isn't one that rocks
till the goat skin hero hits it with his little rhythm stick.
I'm the man supplies the heartbeat
I'm the dude that makes it tick.

He's the diddley dee director
He's the dude that makes it tick.


And that is the first half of it half of it - but you need to hear it. And watch Ireland's Pavarotti lookalike when he does it.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 05:27 PM

That's Barking Mad! No matter how many time I proofread, they slip through


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 05:32 PM

Gee, the things you learn on Mudcat! I never knew there was such a thing as Paddyrap! Or would you call it (shudder) McRap?? And why is it the Celtic overlays suddenly make the whole thing seem brighter and less destruction-bent? The grandiose swagger is a great tradition in folkways (I'm Mike Fink, half 'gator and half snapping turtle...) but it stands in sharp contrast to the mindless nihilism of gangsta-style rap. It's a great ability to run off inspired couplets standing up. But I can't hold with any use of an "art" form dedicated to sheer destruction and nullification. Where's the use of it?

As for Nazi beerhalls, I think "Lili Marlene" is one of the purest tunes ever written.

A


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,marcelloblues
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 06:10 PM

Rap in a great movie. Last saturday I went to see Ghost Dog (The way of the samurai), by Jim Jarmush, with the greater Forrest Whitaker. That's incredible, old mafia men in and around Jersey City (so I was told), overtalking the radio in the bathroom while dressing up, washing theet and other ridicolous stuff. Still laughing. Cheerz


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Caitrin
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 06:29 PM

I don't think it's fair to chalk up all rap songs as violent and degrading. Yeah, a lot of popular rap is violent. Some is just junk. That doesn't make all of it so. Some of it is genuinely poetic and musical. Before you write all rap off as worthless, listen to Lauryn Hill and Erykah Badu. I'm not much of a rap listener, so I can't come up with any others off the top of my head. I think those two women show that rap can be real music, despite the trash that gets put out by some rappers.

And in the Paddyrap arena, my personal favorite is Joe Dolan's "Jerusalem Rap".


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 06:39 PM

Whatever MacLuhan thought, the medium isn't the same thing as the message.

The medium - rap, folk, country, print, pictures - can be used to carry a whole range of messages, a whole range of contradictory meanings. If you hear a medium used for messages you hate, you can be trapped into thinkingf that's the only message it can carry.

So you get religions and cultures where pictures are seen as evil, or where fiddles are seen as the devils own music. You get stories about Robert Johnson having to sell his soul to the devil in order to becomes a bluesman.

That's the way some people see rap, and it's easy to see why - most of the rap I've heard seems to be loaded with attitudes and assumptions that I hate, both in the words and the way the backings are done. (And I can undersatnd why that is - a combination of people being damaged by circumstances and trying to survive in desperate and disatrous ways, together with moneygrabbers exploiting them ruthlessly.)

But it needn't be done that way, and it needn't be carrying this kinds of messages.

That's why I posted the Four Men and a Dog rap, just to show that the medium can be used differently. And I'm sure that a lot of the time it is being done differently and better, in ghettoes and in slums - but we never get to hear that. And if we did hear it, we likely wouldn't recognise it, because we've learned to shut our ears against the bad stuff.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,Terapln
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 06:56 PM

I'm gonna have to speak out about calling Terry Allen Hall a racist. Thats a bunch or crap (there's that word again huh Terry) I can see nothing in his postings that indicate anything like that. If this discussion was on skinhead "music" or death metal I'm sure he'd have a similar negative position. He's going purely on contents. Saying something negative about a person and their activities DOES NOT make one a racist. Except perhaps in the eyes of the narrow minded.

Now, to the question, Blues Vs Rap. One is The Music that stirs my soul and makes me want to play guitar and sing, one is gibberish ryming spoken over an irritating boomy beat while old LP's are ruined in the background.

Of course, this is all just my opinion.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: grgptrsn
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 07:42 PM

this being my first contribution as a member of the Mudcat, i want to be perfectly honest: i get serious enjoyment out of all kinds of music, including both the blues and rap (to be technical, 'rapping' is what the vocalist does, 'hip hop' is the music.) i love Blind Willie McTell, and i also love De La Soul. there was a time when i couldn't stand either kind of music, but i've discovered since then that blues and rap, like other truly worthwhile interests, are acquired tastes.

there are not many things that get on my nerves, but intolerance is one of them. the fact that so many people here can totally dismiss a genre of music w/ having only a simple understanding that's not even shallow. of course there's a lot of bad rap music being made, but there's a lot of bad folk music, too. the kind of rap music that Terry Alan Hall has referenced above is certainly not something i would ever purchase or listen to intentionally. but please believe that there is more out there that you're not familiar w/ yet, music that might be to your liking.

i could go on about this, but i'd like to be relatively brief. before finishing, though, i'd like to point out that i sense a lot of anger coming from those people who accuse rap music of being only anger-oriented.

- greg


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: grgptrsn
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 07:46 PM

my apologies... the above sentence fragment should have read:

the fact that so many people here can totally dismiss a genre of music w/ having only a simple understanding that's not even shallow is saddening to me.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 08:00 PM

Well, forgive me for shooting off my mouth. It may just be a sad coincidence that the "rap" medium, which draws on talents as old as Homer, has become the milieu for artists who want to give voice to a hateful or violent message. I have no objection to the basic medium; I think it would be kinda dumb to condemn a medium (especially if she were a happy medium).

But as to _content_, well, there just isn't room in my end of the universe for acting out venom, or filling the ears of other humans with what amounts to emotional toxins. Doesn't matter much to me if it is metal or rap of any other brand of chaos mongering, it's just not my lil baggy. Sorry if this offends.

Amos


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Mark Clark
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 08:05 PM

"I'm goin' back to Black Mountain, me and my razor and gun, Gonna cut her if she stands, shoot her if she run."

I agree that the blues is no stranger to violence. What I am curious about is why we are comparing blues and rap? Is it because both forms originated with the African community? That seems pretty lame. Why would we assume that they are somehow related? I think rap is more analagous to what we call the talking blues. Most of the talking blues I know are highly political and talk about doing some form of violence to someone. The rap beat is very compelling and it's easy to put talking blues lyrics to much of it. Try that at home and see what you think.

Sure, as a middle class white boy, I don't listen to a lot of rap although I'm beginning to think I should start paying attention. There's a message in there and if it didn't have appeal, there'd be no market.

Ever since the music industry threw off its training wheels, nearly all the music our culture has heard has been that for which there is a market. You can find other music but not on the level of widespread national distribution. If the message of violence and rage finds a larger market in some communities than that of peace and love, perhaps the message of peace and love holds no kernel of truth for fans of rap. If that is true, we're much worse off than we thought.

All the music we love best grew out of some social situation or another. If rap also grew out of a social situation, we'd better be listening, not turning a deaf ear. Perhaps we should be writing folk raps with a different message and see where they go.

Just a thought,

- Mark


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,ddw
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 08:55 PM

I can't say I'm much of a fan of rap, but it has occurred to me that it might be a spinoff from the old talking blues, which is a form that's been around for a long time.

As for the content, I agree with some of the posts above — the blues seemed to have an element of hope, of coping with adversity, but rap seems to be more about creating adversity. Maybe the kind of lashing out it advocates is a way of coping, but it's a short-sighted way at best. If urban blacks really started to do what the rappers urge, I think they would find themselves the victims of "ethnic cleansing" that would make Kosovo and Somalia seem like a stroll in the park. Racism against blacks is bad enough, but open black racism toward whites just compounds the situation.

As for the music that accompanies rap lyrics, I find it repetative, mechanical and annoying in the extreme. It seems almost devoid of any human content — unless you can find the human content in monotone disco with overlays of the above-mentioned trash compactor.

Still, if people want to listen to the stuff, that's their right. But their rights end where my ears begin, so they can darned well TURN IT DOWN.

cheers y'all

david


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: grgptrsn
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 09:48 PM

blues (10s, 20s, 30s) --> 'rhythm & blues' (40s, 50s) --> funk (60s, 70s) --> hip-hop/rap (70s, 80s, 90s)

this is a huge oversimplification, but am i the only one this makes sense to? instead of talking about blues and rap as opposites, perhaps rap should be looked at as being a descendent of the blues. i'm certainly not the first one to suggest this; so why does it seem like such a difficult idea to some Mudcats?

as for the notion that Blues = hope, Rap = despair & destruction, i'm reminded of a line from A Tribe Called Quest: "get in the zone of positivity, not negativity, 'cause we got to strive for longevity." and there's more where that comes from.

- greg


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: ddw
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 10:10 PM

Greg,

I think I understand what you're saying, but I think you're making a mistake to think it's a linear progression from blues to rap. First, because the blues and the interim steps all survived through the whole time line and stand beside all the others, not as replacements for them.

Secondly — tho' you have obviously listened to more rap than I have — I think there was a qualitative leap into rap; it hardly qualifies as music (i.e. something produced by musicians who actually play instruments) since it relies so heavily on electronics. I criticize disco for the same reason — it's just electronicly-generated noise.

Third, the musical forms you list leading up to rap all had a range of emotion in them — joy, playfulness, sadness, pain, etc. — that seems to be lacking in the rap I've heard. Maybe I'm just not attuned to it if it's there, but I find what rap I've heard banal in the extreme.

cheers,

david


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Barry Finn
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 10:52 PM

The "Last Poets" were the grandfathers of rap, they've been gone now 25 years & they were great. They had the medium & the message down pat. It's to bad what had to follow. Barry


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: MK
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 11:26 PM

.....Perhaps RAP is the ebonic version of the word ....crap.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 11:34 PM

Mike, that is ure ull hit!

By the way, you played REALLY well tonight. Especially your flat-picked leads.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Mbo
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 11:40 PM

Uh-oh...the famous debate! McGrath, I love "Wrap It Up"! That song absolutely rules! And Gino...Italian & Irish--what could be better? Personally, I'm not much into rap. I don't know why. Some rap is good, like "Rapper's Paradise" mentioned above is a classic, thought I heard it only twice. Will Smith's stuff is pretty funny--he's got a positive take of rap--"For ladies always pull out chairs, go easy on the swears" that's more like it. I'm going to duck flying projectiles now, but I liked the song "Wild Wild West." I also kinda liked "Hard Knock Life" by Jay-Z. The lyrics were pretty much obscenity-laden, but the bouncy beat and sampling of the song from "Annie" made it fun. I once heard a very cool thing on the radio back during Hurricane Floyd. A Rap love song from the early eighties! Folks need to bring that stuff back!

--Mbo


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Mbo
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 11:44 PM

Oooh, forgot to mention Wyclef Jean's "Gone Till November" is a classic! I think even folkies would like it. Hey, he plays a classical guitar in the video--alright with me! And a neat string section to boot! Caitrin, you mean Joe Dolan made a Rap version of "Trip To Jerusalem"? I love that song: "Danced throught the streets of Elat town, sang Sean South of Garryowen." Classic! I've been thinkin' of doing a rap version of "The Spree." It really works! Try it!

--Mbo


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Caitrin
Date: 27 Jan 00 - 09:59 AM

Actually, Mbo, Seven Nations did the rap version. I have to admit to having never heard the original version. *ducks to avoid flying objects aimed at her head* : )


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,Mbo
Date: 27 Jan 00 - 10:22 AM

Who exactly are these Seven Nations fellows? I've never heard of them..except from you, of course. And does their name have any connection the Native America? From your descriptions, they sound a bit like Wolfstone, who I love! Let them sing!

--Mbo


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Easy Rider
Date: 27 Jan 00 - 10:29 AM

I make no excuses for modern Rap in the following. I hate the stuff!

We should remember, though, that "Rap" is not a new phenomenon. It goes way back. There is a Yazoo CD, titled "The Roots of Rap", that you should all listen to. It consists of recordings of "Rap" songs from the 1920s. Bob Dylan wrote a couple of "Rap" songs too. "Standing on the pavement, thinking 'bout the guv'nment. Don't think, kid. It's something you did...". Violence has always been part of our culture, and it has always been expressed in our music. The difference is only in the details.

It has been said that Rap is the Blues of today's urban youth, just the way Country Blues was the music of the rural youth of the 1920s and 30s. The question is one, I think, of relevance. The Blues, a Black music genre, has not been popular with Black people for the last 60 years. It's us old White Folkies who are its audience now. Blacks moved on to Jazz, Electric Blues (Chicago), R&B, Motown, ... Rap, long ago. The White audience has always been a step behind.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Caitrin
Date: 27 Jan 00 - 10:43 AM

The black kids I know that have a real appreciation for music do listen to the blues, as do the white kids. The blues aren't really a "pop" form anymore for any race.

And I don't think the white audience is always a step behind...just generally in a different step. The people who are progressive and doing something new generally aren't popular at first. Ani diFranco, Donna the Buffalo, They Might Be Giants, and Moxy Fruvous are all making new kinds of music...it's just that most people haven't noticed yet.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Terry Allan Hall
Date: 27 Jan 00 - 10:47 AM

Well, well...by reporting (in a non-biased way) what the local "non-gangsta" Rap Station plays in a given 90 minute segment of the day, I've apparently convinced someone that I'm a racist.

Being a proud, card-carrying member of the Cherokee Nation (BTW, we're the only US minority who have to carry documentation to prove who and what we are!), I'd like to point out that we've always inter-married w/ both whites and blacks (and my cousin Jimmy-Don's wife is Hawaiian, if that's relevent!), and therefore I'd like to respectfully point out that (A) I'm NOT a racist, and (B) anyone who thinks I am a racist is cordially invited to go commit a biologically unlikely act upon themselves.

Still, just to make fair, I went over to my 89 y.o. great-aunt Jesse's house to check with her (I go by at least every other day to see if she needs anything)...see, she's about as dark-complected as it's possible to be...likely because her grand-dad was a former slave... so that would likely qualify her in this matter...she suggested the scotsman go back to "servicing" his sheep.

I did explain to her that that would be a "racist" thing to say...She was quite amused by the thought, but asked me to point out to all concerned that scotsmen/women were not a race, but a condition. Make of that what ya will.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 27 Jan 00 - 11:43 AM

Hello all, I think rap is doing the job it was after.. It's not there to make anyone comfortable and I for one will pass it by very quickly but everytime I hear it I thank god I don't live in the neighberhood where those stories come from.They sure arent asking my permition to talk about whats up with them.. We can feel safe and conected with our relationships with blues for a ton off reasons."I feel bad" "I'm so low" We as an adience we are SAFE<><<><> We are not sopossed to feel anything like beening safe when we hear rap..They are comming, thats the message..It's time to fix something or get hurt!! Blues has taught me so much about getting on with stuff in a bad situation.It's personaly helped me .Rap tells me it"s time to do something before it's to late..Thats not alot of fun... My best regards to all here Guy Wolff


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 27 Jan 00 - 01:16 PM

I always surprised at the venom that some people let out when they talk about music that they don't like, but even fairly reasonable people do get carried in the heat of discussion,and I try to remember that--I think this comment from Michael K goes well beyond the pale for me:

"I must confess that I crack a devious little smile on my face, whenever I hear that a Rapper has been blown away..."


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: MK
Date: 27 Jan 00 - 02:05 PM

Well I respect your opinion M.Ted, and I did mention this particular subject (RAP) is a particular sore spot with me, at the onset of my message.

Perhaps the remark you quoted, was a bit extreme or should not have been expressed in print (and perhaps a poor analogy to express how much I truly loathe this music?)...but I got carried away in the passion of the moment writing my comments. Usually I'm much more subdued.

...But, I'll bet there are many other Mucatter's who agree with me as far as my passionate aversion to RAP, who can't be bothered posting, or who would do so anonymously. In any event, to each his own...and you and I can agree to disagree.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Jan 00 - 02:17 PM

Your post prompted this Gino Lupari story. I was in the big city for a day and on the way home, went to see him playing at the Swan, in Stockwell on a Wednesday night. All night he had one eye on the TV as Manchester United where playing Juventus. The main part of the audience, which was not vast was composed of a party of Italians, who I suspect had come in to see this 'tenor' from their own country perform, or should that be 'tonner'? They were a little confused at the type of music that was being played but stayed, I think mainly to watch Juventus. The look on their faces when Man Utd scored twice, won the game and their fellow countryman, Gino punched the air did a little jig of joy, was a delight. It reminded me of the 'hippos' dancing in tutus, in Fantasia.

Is the fact that blues is now accepted, as is jazz and rock and roll, by all cultures, the reason why it is not as popular as rap, with the younger element of black culture? Is it the same in places like Chicago? Is the blues now dead?


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jan 00 - 02:27 PM

Blues dead??? Like, man, not!! Like, so totally NOT!!
As if!! I mean, that is so unTRUE!!! Totally!!

Amosina


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 27 Jan 00 - 02:39 PM

Michael,

I didn't actually express any opionion on Rap music--just to clarify, I didn't post because I wanted argue any kind of point about any kind of music--

My reaction was entirely to the idea that someone would express pleasure at the brutal murder of another human being, and only because they didn't happen to like the music that they entertainer performed--

As a performer and an entertainer, in a community that includes many performers and entertainers, I would have thought that you would have had a little more feeling for fellow performers--

As to what you like or don't like, that is strictly up to you, and as far as I am concerned, there is no need for us to either agree or disagree--

I do appreciate your comments, and they do help me to understand that your original remark was more figurative than it seemed--


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jan 00 - 02:50 PM

If someone--regardless of gender, race, religion, income level or handedness--who promotes violence inherits violence, why is it very few people are surprised? Inheriting the wind is a known risk you take according to all the wisdom on the subject. So seeing karma work has a certain balance to it; that does not mean anyone should enjoy watching bad karma, but it does have a certain internal aesthetic; a lot more so that something excruciating like the Colorado school massacre.

A.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 00 - 03:40 PM

And how is what Amos just said allthat different from the kinds of attitudes expressed in Cop Killer? These brutal people (gangstas, or cops) brought violence on themselves - they were asking for it, it's Karma?

As someone back up the thread said, there's a lot off hate and violence coming out from people denouncing hate and violence in rap. Violence breeds violence, hate breeds hate. It doesn't help to stop the hate by just responding to it with hate.

In places like Ireland and Palestine they talk about "the politics of the last atrocity" - meaning every time someone on your side drops or plants a bomb or shoots someone, it's explained/justified by going back to the last time teh other side did something just as bad. But you don't go back to the atrocity before that by your side and the one before by their side, and the one...

There comes a point when you have to stop recycling the hate. If it's true for rap singers, and it is, it's just as true for people who don't like what they sing. Doesn't mean you have to learn to like it, doesn't mean yiou can't say why you don't like it. Does mean you don't let yourself say things you should be ashamed to say.

As for Gino Luparis, where I live if Juventus was playing Manchester United we'd probably be cheering for Juventus. It was Arsenal, we'd definitely be cheering for Juventus. And if it was Arsenal playing Manchester United? Cheering for United - reluctantly.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Chet W.
Date: 27 Jan 00 - 04:10 PM

I've talked and written about this til I can't anymore. I do have to say that calling someone a racist for their opinions about rap is outrageous and awfully naive. Don't forget that rap, besides being an artistic depiction of urban and other violence, to the point of atrocity, also has an active role in justifying same to young impressionable minds. I've seen it happen way too much when I was teaching in juvenile prison. Kids who couldn't write their names could recite whole rap albums (the gangsta kind) and there's no way around the obvious, that it made their personal crimes seem more "normal". By the way, Erykah Badu, whose songs seem relatively benign, has put out some stuff in support of the 5-Percenters, a drug gang that poses as a religion and recruits mostly young people in prison to go retail drugs for them when they get out, all the while making them think they are part of something ancient and noble. So they end up in prison again, and another one takes their place. My last word (I promise) is that in all facets of culture (music, religions, politics) if the truly fairminded and positive people are not willing to speak out about the nasty ones (lots of TV preachers come to mind), then they taint us all. Names have to be named, and that's what makes people too uncomfortable to speak.

Chet


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: M
Date: 27 Jan 00 - 05:37 PM

Y'all ever think about the progression here? The Blues, lamenting being put down, being passed by, being denied...whatever. Then, 40, 50, 60, maybe even 70 years later, Rap says, Shit, we are FED UP WITH being put down, being passed by, being denied! There's a great stanza in "Fishin' 4 Religion," (by Arrested Development) that sums up some of it:

The pastor says pray to see the pearly gates so white...

The lady prays and prays and prays..and prays...

There's nothin' wrong with prayin,'

It's what she's ASKIN.'

She shoulda been prayin' to change her woes,

But pastor said pray to cope with those.

The word COPE and the word CHANGE are completely opposite, not the same.

('scuse the ommissions.) You get the idea. If you HATE Rap, then it seems that that's all you can contribute to this thread--your hate. Not a very useful contribution.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jan 00 - 05:43 PM

Ah, McGrath, yer right. I just can't STAND intolerance of any kind! :>)


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Chet W.
Date: 27 Jan 00 - 06:15 PM

So Dr. M.L. King, who was accomplishing so much with non-violence, should instead have been passing out assault rifles? I get it now.

Chet


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jan 00 - 06:18 PM

Chet! Put it back where you got it!

A.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Caitrin
Date: 27 Jan 00 - 06:20 PM

Sorry, Chet. I didn't realize Erykah Badu supported that group. All I know of her is the one of her two albums I own. I can honestly say that she does not glorify violence in her music, though.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Chet W.
Date: 27 Jan 00 - 07:43 PM

Good line A. Caitrin, I certainly would have missed that message in Badu's songs myself if I hadn't done some research on that gang when some of my students were being recruited in our facility, mostly by a social worker, believe it or not. Interestingly, I was called a racist by people who knew better when I studied the situation and made a report to the principal about it. At the time I didn't know he was an idiot. I listen to all kinds of music in languages I don't even understand, so they could be singing about anything and I wouldn't know. I just heard a band on NPR yesterday that writes songs in language unknown even to them. Sounded pretty cool, though. It's a complicated issue, but I've seen the damage myself and I'm not really interested in the details anymore. A disease is a disease, even if it has feelings.

Chet


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Jan 00 - 02:51 PM

Without passing judgement on the very strong anti 'Rap' views I can't help be reminded of the strong views expressed in the recent past about 'The Devis Music' or at least those on Rock and Roll.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Caitrin
Date: 28 Jan 00 - 04:36 PM

I don't think that was the point M was trying to make. Dr. King did not try to "cope" with the way things were...he worked for change. However, you're right...he didn't use assault rifles, nor should he have.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Jan 00 - 05:31 PM

Sorry that should have read 'The Devil's Music'.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Mbo
Date: 28 Jan 00 - 05:49 PM

Some very misguided people in Northern Ireland once boycotted an ELO concert, because they claimed it was "Devil Music." Bizarre, bizarre. ELO was the most harmless and light-hearted bands. It's like calling Charlotte Church a demon. I think that you can not like or not be interested in a kind of music, but please don't hate it. Hate not something we need more of.

--Mbo


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 04 Feb 00 - 11:57 AM

Sorry to dredge this thread up again--but--There is a lot of anger in "Rap",and many people are not comfortable with that anger. The anger manifests itself in a lot of ways, including the posturing of violence that is the hallmark feature in "gangsta rap"--

The thing is that Rap merely vents the anger--kids memorize songs, albums, etc because the lyrics speak to their own life experience, they give voice to feelings that already exist--if an honest assessment were made, it is more likely that, by giving vent to this anger,the "Gangsta Rap" fantasy actually gives kids an alternative to acting out the anger in real life--

My family have been involved in the Civil Rights movement for several generations, and I can do a pretty convincing and noble speech on the virtues of non-violence and the the committment of all responsible Blacks to the peaceful achievement of racial justice--

However, from my own experience, I know that all Blacks, from MLK on down, carry with them bitterness, hurt, and anger--and that, from time to time, these feelings are vented--

That is a legacy of racism, segregation, and slavery that we all have to live with, like it or not.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Amos
Date: 04 Feb 00 - 12:10 PM

A legacy of anger is not healed
By adding anger to the commonweal
Good minds bring good again to life enow
That only springs within the here, the now.
Would only that the pain behind us die
That "they" and "then" transforms to "Now" and "I"

Cutty Bushmiller Adams, 1897


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 04 Feb 00 - 12:46 PM

I can only observe that the world has not changed much in the 103 years since these noble sentiments were enshrined in couplets--


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Tchaikovsky
Date: 04 Feb 00 - 01:07 PM

Wow, I just read through all these messages and I am appalled at the amount of racism and hate within these messages alone. Yes, there is some hate and "bad stuff" in rap music...but honestly I listen to rap all the time and I don't hear it. I'm always hearing very positive uplifting messages that seem to transcend race, colour, sex...etc... One good comment on here was "why are we comparing rap to blues?" There are hate messages in all types of music. I grew up in an Irish household listening to recordings and singing IRA rebel tunes....you don't see me bombing anything. Of course, there is a vital difference if there are children idolizing young rap musicians who are perpetuating hate messages..whether they be in rap, folk music, rock...or any genre. We should make it more of an issue to educate "our children"(in the universal sense) about vilonce, drugs, etc.... AND THEN GETTING TO MY POINT....this is no reason to dismiss a whole genre of music. I'm a feminist musicologist who has specialized in 19th century symphonic music but I have done some anaylsis of rap. I find rap to be very complex....has anyone tried to rap??? It is not an easy thing to do....and many of these artists do it extemperaneously!! Without pontificating....I find that rap allows the listener to take in a valid message that is often quite complexly rhymed and then there is usually some sort of one line melody or chorus which re-empasizes their point. It gives a voice to many communities who wouldn't normally get to express their opinions. Perhaps, not everyone can appreciate rap however it is no reason to dismiss a genre...AND YES...there is a very obvious correlation between blues and rap....and it continues on....anyone here like Acid Jazz?? It is a wonderful mix of hip hop, jazz, rap...etc... Anyone who finds that what I have to say is even remotely interesting should check out works by the scholar bell hooks. She has some wonderful things to say about black culture and aesthetics. Thanks for reading this. Matthew Adams


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 04 Feb 00 - 01:28 PM

Rap is polyrhythmic, and, as is typical in polythmic music, there are some layers that are simply repeating phrases-- as you might expect,there are also some listeners who only hear those layers, and then claim that it is not music at all, because it is just repetition--


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Amos
Date: 04 Feb 00 - 01:38 PM

Well argued, Tchaikovsky. The merits of the real life-blood rap are as strong as any form of musical or even semi-musical performance; I think in general the only exception that can be taken to it, as with any medium, is when it actually promotes hatred. This is not a racist issue at all, it is a human issue. Venom is no more attractive in rap than it is in political speeches or football hero remarks. Doesn't matter whether it is white hatred, black hatred, or the long-standing hatred of the pale chartreuse for the Purple People Eaters. It's jes' ugly! The form, on the other hand, is awe-inspiring.

A


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Chet W.
Date: 04 Feb 00 - 10:13 PM

Aye, Peter Ilyich, but the "vital difference" that comes when young children are idolizing rapper that perpetuate hate is extremely common. The kids I was teaching in prison had only a small chance of having a life anyway, and when a rich celebrity "gangsta" (for God's sake, how many subcultures have openly identified themselves as criminals?) with pounds of gold puts out poetry about killing cops (and you know this is not an isolated theme) and "fuck their grieving mothers" I think that venting is a micro-event compared to making money, tons of it, off of other people's misery, perpetuating among other things the eternity of victimhood from which there will be no return. Since it's somebody else's fault, it seems normal to sit around their whole lives waiting for somebody else to make it right. So, please, who gets screwed in this deal? Unless you have lived or worked in such an environment, you cannot understand it like someone who has. And, this is another case, like with TV preachers, where I don't understand why the legitimate ones can have nothing to say about the crooks. The rappers who want to give to a community some hope or way out of their misery, let them do it louder, and at the same time say something appropriate about "thug.com". We're talking about lives being lost, literally, while we have these intellectual analytical discussions. Let anyone who has a love of this art hang out in the projects and rejoice in it.

Chet


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Chet W.
Date: 04 Feb 00 - 10:17 PM

Social worker to dead cop's kids "Look at it this way. The artist who told that guy to kill your dad had a polyrythm, just like Max Roach!"

Chet


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 05 Feb 00 - 12:30 AM

As usual Chet, well spoken. I don't always agree with you, and I KNOW how much this subject hurts you, considering those you've tried to help.

You made a good point though about all preachers protecting crooked preachers by their silence. It's the same in every profession though isn't it? Crooked cops, incompetent doctors, drugged atheletes, and on and on and on. Not only does it take guts to tell the truth about crooked powerful colleagues, it's inevitably a way to be completely ostracized by your peers, crooked and straight.

We read it in the papers and see it on the tube EVERY DAY of our lives. Whistle blowers lose EVERYTHING but self-satisfaction...and you can't feed your family on that.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,MCSquared
Date: 05 Feb 00 - 12:32 AM

OK, so gangsta rap isn't very positive. Rap as an art-form (perhaps not music but I'm a literature major so I know nothing about music) is interesting, though. Consider the really slick old-school 80s rap, from groups like RUN-DMC, the Fat Boys, Grand Master Flash, and the Sugarhill Gang.

First, their version of 80s pop culture: well, living in the hood they had missed out on the booming economy, the fluorescent clothing, and big hair rock bands, but caught the unemployment and drug use square-on. Then along comes Run-DMC, two young black men, standing on a stage talking-- talking!-- into their microphones, telling the whole world how great they were. And people listened and bought their albums! which contained a bunch of samples. Samples of other people's music, re-interpretted into their own message, much as graffitti re-interpretted the urban landscape that urban kids see every day, but don't own any piece of.

How ironic, that two black kids from NYC could captivate a generation by laying down lyrics based on rather complex rhythms and rhyme schemes. And their messages-- Run-DMC and Grand Master Flash especially-- were very positive for the most part.

And I have to agree with an earlier post-- try rapping sometime. You'll sound pretty silly. Just if you do start rapping, try to stick to a positive message.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Tchaikovsky
Date: 05 Feb 00 - 02:56 AM

Chet W....I agree with you completely but again....you are only talking about ONE type of rap. That is like a person only listening to IRA rebel tunes and dismissing all Irish folk music because they find it to be too violent. You obviously know that there are other types of Irish folk musics...and we can put those IRA tunes in historical context...just as the Wolftones do when they perform them. Of course with rap we are dealing with the present BUT the rap you are listening to is referred to as "gangster rap." There are many more rap artist who have positive themes...try Lauryn Hill, Will Smith, TLC, Salt and Peppa'...and the list goes on and on. I am not dismissing your argument...only trying to tell you there are other great types of rap out there....and yes, they are often polyrhythmic...LOL :)


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Chet W.
Date: 05 Feb 00 - 08:04 AM

Then can we do this?: Can we agree that gangsta rap, or more to the point its huge popularity, is a tragedy, even if the others are not? I'm familiar with RunDMC, their tribute to Dr. King a few years ago was good. The gangsta stuff, though, is hugely popular. Just as there are more liquor stores in poor neighborhoods, and more cigarette billboards, there are actually billboards for, as I mentioned above "Thug.com" in the poor neighborhoods here, as well as others of the kind. Why do we object, as thoughtful folks, to hyperpromotion of liquor and tobacco to our most vulnerable citizens, and not to something which socially legitimizes being a violent criminal.

I'm aware of rappers who are trying to do good, to get people to the polls, to speak against drugs. Let's celebrate them. And let's condemn the ones getting rich from the misery of lost lives at least as loudly. If it's art, fine, but it's also a disease, and I am offended by the moron in this thread who seems to imply that any criticism of rap is racism. That should be offensive to us all.

I don't mean to offend. Years of watching kids lose all chance of life has made me intolerant of some things, and gangsta rap is just one of them.

Chet


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Tchaikovsky
Date: 05 Feb 00 - 06:01 PM

yeah, I can agree with that Chet....you make a good point. However, do understand that gangster rap will be a very important way for future historians and musicologists to understand intercity politics. Thanks for this enthralling debate.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Chet W.
Date: 06 Feb 00 - 07:16 PM

Sincere thanks to you PI, for I seldom reach accord on this issue in this forum. Good line about future historians. I often wonder what they'll say about the Home Shopping network. A line I often use, partly attributable to the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, is that when some other species writes our history, they will probably say that coming out of the trees was a big mistake.

Best wishes to all of good will, Chet


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 07 Feb 00 - 10:49 AM

IMHO there's rap and there's crap.

Certainly there is a lot of the latter and, because of its content, is exploitative and not really worth listening to.

But there is good rap out there and I for one certainly don't dismiss it as a valid musical form. My 12-year old daughter's class had to get together in several small groups and write and perform a rap song as part of a project. Her group chose to do one on the subject of racism. And very good it was too.

It's not the form but the content that's important and that's the same with almost any musical genre.

My Belgian francs woth for today!


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Mbo
Date: 07 Feb 00 - 11:01 AM

Hey, I almost forgot about The Fat Boys! Rapping about cheeseburgers--now that's my kind of music! They used to be guests sometimes on the PBS math program "Square One" (a huge favorite of mine), as did Run-DMC. Their raps about math problems were great!

--Mbo


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 07 Feb 00 - 12:39 PM

Something else just occurred to me, and that is that(and I've mentioned this before in other threads) "Gangsta Rap" which is a super-commercial "product', appeared rather late in the game--it sells a lot CDs, and mostly to suburban white kids--

I think that "Gangsta Rap" was created by the music industry, because it was a gimmick that sold a lot of product, and, although I did say that it was a vehicle for "venting", I think that when Rap was just something that happened in urban dance clubs, the extreme stuff was only a small element in the mix--unfortunately, now that big money is involved, as in many areas, the lurid, the shocking, and the extreme dominate, because they deliver the big sales--


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,ryan
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 05:48 PM

u rank


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 07:44 PM

Hmmmmmmmm? Must not have been hangin' 'round the Catbox when this thread was started 'er I woulda had to throwed in my thoughts...

...ahhhhhhh, rap is a logical extension of blues. Both are folk music created by predominently black people and both talk of the stuggles and hopes of black folks...

One day when I have time I'm gonna write a blues/rap song that incorporates elements of both of them... Yeah, it would be nice if more of these young rappers would just take a journey thru history so that they would have an appreciation of the foundation that rap is built... Yeah, I gotta write a blues/rap song...

Bobert (alias "Sidewalk Bob", bluesman)


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: jpk
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 08:29 PM

all that rap is, is nothing more than perverted ragae opps i spelled it wrong


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,BILLY
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 09:51 PM

I was really enjoying this discussion - then up popped Tchai- bleedin'-kovsky, trying to turn a primitive music (?) form into a subject for academic study. The practitioners of this stuff wouldn't recognise a polyrythym if it bit them on the bum. It's just a device that allows people with little talent to jump onto a stage, make curious gestures with their fingers and launch into a diatribe that satisfies their need to be a victim ( there's a lot of this about these days - it sort of provides an excuse for not trying to improve yourself ). Feminist musicologist indeeed !


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Cromdubh
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 01:30 PM

Certain Rap to me is like folk music. It tells a story, with names, places and actual events which happened in an area.

Different style, same old stories. Love, murder, poverty and bling bling.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: shepherdlass
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 05:11 PM

Cromdubh - I'm with you there. It's all oral tradition, isn't it?

Do you know, I've only just spotted this thread and have just seen the show to prove that the blues and rap mix absolutely fine so long as the person providing the blues element has wide open ears and the person providing the rap isn't one of the cartoon-cut-out gansta rapper bogeymen. Courtney Pine played at the Sage Gateshead recently and touched on so many forms derived from the blues, from straightahead 12 bar to bebop to hip-hop and he brought on one of the rappers from the band Faithless as part of his group - magical result of genuine fusion (not shotgun marriage crossover).   

Alternatively listen to Queen Latifah in Chicago - there's a rapper that could belt out the blues if ever I heard one.

BTW Billy - the practitioners might not recognise the term polyrhythm but that doesn't stop them from using such really effectively. Just like a lot of the blues guys who originated the form probably didn't express their ideas in the language of dominant 7ths and secondary dominants. But they still were perfectly able to play them. You don't have to analyse it to play it or rap it (something called talent seems to take care of that) but it helps to have the lingo if you're trying to make sense of it as a form.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 12:27 AM

This thread dropped off five years ago--the world is much changed, but Rap, both the music form, and the cultural institution, are still with us, bigger than ever (or should I say, "Evah")--Yall may want to kill me for saying it, but it is way more popular than blues ever was(well, at least the kind of music folks think of as blues like Delta Blues or Chicago Blues), and has hung in there for way longer--Any thoughts as to why?


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: MurkeyChris
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 07:09 PM

Hi guys,

As I guy who loves both blues and rap I'd like to point you towards the song 'Bridging the Gap' performed by rapper Nas with his blues playing father, Olu Dara. Absolutely brilliant!

(If you want to hear it online I played it on an old radio show - go to http://logs.1287am.com then go to the Random Noises show at 9pm on 11th January. It's 29 minutes in.)

Chris

-----------------

Folk on the radio - www.coolasfolk.co.uk


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: MurkeyChris
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 07:12 PM

Here is a direct link to the above show. Just either download or listen to the Random Noises hour. What a plug! But it is a great song and well worth hearing in the context of this thread!

Chris


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: John Hardly
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 07:51 PM

"Yall may want to kill me for saying it, but it is way more popular than blues ever was(well, at least the kind of music folks think of as blues like Delta Blues or Chicago Blues), and has hung in there for way longer--Any thoughts as to why?"

1. Better marketing aparatus in place. And because music pie is more divided now than ever, marketing has reached new frenzied levels to try to grab their share of it.

2. Bigger overall market available (a million seller is a smaller % of the population than it used to be)

3. The void is bigger. Pop music, in general, is dreadful.

4. The cultural taboo against the immoderate behavior represented by rap is more lax. Our generation wrote about sex and drugs (in their rock and roll). In order to shock the cultural taboo has to escalate.

5. Education is no longer toward a social norm.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 11:15 PM

It remains to be seen whether rap hangs in there longer than blues. The final chapter of blues hasn't been written yet. It is still a viable and popular musical art form.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 10:10 AM

I have to suggest that there may be reason to doubt the current concept that "rap" is a traditional black cultural thing, since my first exposure to it, ca. 1954, was as a "Chicano ghetto" fad, popular especially in the So. Cal area. Samples I heard then had none of the hate/violence/protest content of currently merchandised "rap," and some were quite interesting. My observation then was that the content did reflect cultural/social conditions important to the creators, and that the rap pieces were probably valid source material for understanding of their situation and feelings.

The "rap" that I encountered then was creative and meaningful, and probably did have a lot in common with blues.

While I don't feel the need to argue it, my personal observation is that the currently merchandised "rap" has little to do with "expressing a social condition." The key is that it is made specifically to the requirements of the "merchandising" and SHIT SELLS. Claiming that the highly promoted "rap" commonly seen/heard is all about social protest is about on a par with claiming that highly promoted "porn flicks" are all about love. Both sell quite well, the promoters make a lot of bucks, and some people claim to derive some "redeeming social value" from both.

Many of them will likely grow up and get over it.

There are great numbers of talented people who do speak, sing, and act out the problems (and rewards) of their social conditions, in ways that can help others to understand and work toward mutually beneficial improvement. Rap can be a useful and beautiful medium for such expression. Mass-merchandised media "art" largely only obscures the artists in favor of what's merchantable.

Advertising hype is effective. It makes me not be interested. It seldom misleads me.

John


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 10:49 AM

"There are great numbers of talented people who do speak, sing, and act out the problems (and rewards) of their social conditions, in ways that can help others to understand and work toward mutually beneficial improvement. Rap can be a useful and beautiful medium for such expression. Mass-merchandised media "art" largely only obscures the artists in favor of what's merchantable."-JohnInKansas

I agree with this comment; I also agree with Lady McMoo's succient comment that "there is rap and there is crap"; and John Hardly's list about why Rap is more widely known in many cultures now than Blues was [with the exception of John's last point about "Education is no longer toward a social norm" ??? which social norm, and which form of education??-since mass media is a very powerful educational tool...

I also would like to add that my interest is in hip-hop culture more than hip-hop music [which I admit to not being a fan of for the most part]. With some notable exceptions such as "n---g" and "ho", I love the creativity of the languaging [including spelling] and the tag names used by rappers. This reminds me of the Blues as the creativity of Blues artists and early jazz musicians/singers was expressed in the way they talked.

Furthermore, similar to hip-hop artists,Blues and early jazz artists were known by tag names and not by their birth names.

Hip-Hop is a fascinating culture [cultures really] to study.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 11:10 AM

I actually heard one Rap song I actually liked: Where Is The Love, by the Black Eyed Peas...... Its the end of the world as we know it, i'm doomed mates... LOL


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Stu
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 02:58 PM

I have to take issue with the idea all rap is negative and espouses a culture of violence. I don't know much about rap but I Eminem's song Loose Yourself is one of my favourite motivational records - "You can do anything you set your mind to . . ."

Remember punk (the real stuff, not the pseudo-punk sh*te about these days)? Punk provoked a similar reaction from many, but Anarchy in the UK still sounds as angry and vital as it did when it came out. And less face it, us folkies benefited immensely from punk (Shane McGowan, Billy Bragg etc).

Rap is young people using and exploring language in a creative and exciting way - all power to it's elbow.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 04:34 PM

For those who may not be aware, there are a number of magazines devoted to Hip-Hop culture. The two that I frequently buy [and at one time subscribed to are Source and Vibe. Here are links to both


Source HipHop Magazine

Vibe Magazine

thesource.com appears to just show the cover of its current magazine, and promote other purchasable products, but it announces that a new site is coming.

The Vibe site has information that is readable online.

It should come as no surprise that these competing magazines don't like each other. The Source, for instance, boast that it has more street credibility than the Quincy Jones' produced Vibe. [I think they're right about that]. But there are other Hip-Hop magazines that say that neither Source or Vibe is credible with hardcore
Hip-Hop fans. And depending on how one defines 'hardcore Hip-Hop fans', they might be right.

Not playing favorites or anything [wink wink], here's an excerpt of a Source article from April 2004 to give you one flava of what it's all about:

"Don't Believe the Hype" Martin S. Douglas
The dramatic rise of Hip-Hop over the last few years has forced mainstream music organizations to accept the billion-dollar genre as a driving force. And while, to the naked eye, it seems as though the Grammys and the MTV, VMAs are embracing an art form that they once turned their noses up to, a closer look reveals a hidden agenda.

...while [the 2004 Grammy television show] appeared to be honoring Hip-Hop with five nominations in the Record and Album Of The Year categories (the highest ever in the Academy's two most prestigious categories) and 39 nominations in total as opposed to 32 nominations in 2003, 25 in 2001, and 18 in 2001, none of the six rap categories were televised....

It is no surprise, then, that the Grammy winners reflect what the academy considers to be a more palatable version of Hip-Hop. A perfect example is the shutout of 50 Cents who, after becoming 2003's top selling artist and Hip-Hop's most obvious choice for a winner in any category, was beat out by goth-rockers Evanescence for Best New Artist...

Remember it's only been a few years since our artists stood in protest against the Grammys for not respecting Hip-Hop's achievements...It was only in '89 that the Grammys first recognized the genre, and the Solo and Group categories were not differentiated until '91. Its Best Rap Album category didn't even come into existence until '95. Most disturbing is that the Best Rap SOng category, which recognizes songwriting, wasn't introduced until 2003-an outrage since rap has always stressed lyricism...

Similarly, the MTV VMAs have their own troubled history with Hip-Hop. In 1999, they split the award for our music into two separate categories-one as "Rap" and the other as "Hip-Hop". While artists like Jay-Z and Dr. Dre stayed in the "Rap" category, they began to include 'less threatening' artists like Jennifer Lopez, Sisqo, and The Beastie Boys into "Hip Hop". In effect, this split will eventually contribute to the mainstream MTV-viewing audience's perception that "RAP" is the music of angry, young Black men, while Hip-Hop is softer, more digestible, and 'acceptable' music.

As a whole, these mainstream awards shows have been a slap in the face to the culture. They have used it for their own commercial gain by making it conform to their own standards, Their bogus acknowledgement is too little,too late, and this tyoe of treatment proves tht even in the 21st century, the music industry still does not truly respect the art form of Hip-Hop."


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,anonamys
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 12:22 PM


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,anomanis
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 12:24 PM

i enjoy rap it gives me a good feeling and there is plenty songs from eminem that tell about sucess and he is super popular


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Firecat
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 04:41 PM

intelligent people (of all skin hues) realize that it is simply filth aimed at the lowest mentality

I happen to like rap, especially Eminem. I think that the above comment (from the second post to this thread) is a generalisation of people's views about the kind of peple who listen to rap. I have an IQ in excess of 140, so would I be classed as being of the "lowest mentality"?

It is, however possible to like blues as well as rap. One of my favourite songs is "Baby Can I Hold You Tonight" by Tracy Chapman, with "Fast Car" high on my list as well.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: s6k
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 05:00 PM

i like blues AND rap.

and chuck D from public enemy recently remade electric Mud (muddy waters) with all the original band because he says how blues is such an influence on him.

for all the idiots on this thread who are saying rap is shit, bla bla, rap is all about beating women, bla bla, you are saying this because of what the media has told you, not what you know from actually doing investigation of lyrics etc.

Yes there is a lot of rap around about "bitches" and "hoes" etc, but this is the equivalent of pop music to real rock music - it is a blight on the landscape of music.

you dont have to hate rap because you like blues, idiots. There are plenty of rap artists around who write meaningful lyrics and political issues etc, such as public enemy, in an extremely intelligent manner. You just dont know this because you dont want to admit that youre wrong, or you cant be arsed to actually find out something about the history of rap music before you start typing down your STUPID thoughts.

why dont you actually do some research before you post stupid comments and tar the entire history of rap music down to "its all about beating women"

music is supposed to unite people, and there are plenty of rap artists who are heavily influenced by blues music, as there are plenty of fans of rap and blues together.

if you havent researched rap, and dont know the first thing about it, then i dont personally know how you even dare put your pathetic arguments forward

and if this message comes across as angry, it is because i am sick to death of people who know nothing about rap and its history coming onto rap threads in mudcat and saying its shit with no valid argument whatsoever, just because they think they are above it because they listen to blues and folk.

i like run dmc, cypress hill, robert johnson, blind willie mctell, i could go on.
both genres can live together and add their own parts of history


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 05:17 PM

I like blues, but although I can see the link of rap back to blues, I cannot abide rap at all. Just tastes, I guess


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,moocowpoo
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 08:21 PM

Listening to rap on the radio and forming a blanket opinion of the 'intelligence' of this genre of music is (to me), akin to going to a cd shop, buying a collection entitled 'the auld emerald isle- 40 irish drinking songs' and concluding that all Irish music is shite.   Most rap you will hear on the radio is form the mainstream artists, I like about the same percentage of this and any other mainstream music.    I love Finnish and irish trad,,,,but I've also come across some excellent rap!
If you do more than scratch the surface of rap, you can find songs with lyrics such as these:

Television, Drug of the Free
by Disposable Heroes of Hipocrisy (Michael Franti, 1991):


One nation under god has turned into
one nation under the influence of one drug

(chorus)
Television, the drug of the nation
Breeding ignorance and feeding radiation

T.V., it satellite links
our united states of unconsciousness
apathetic therapeutic and extremely addictive
the methadone metronome pumping out
150 channels 24 hours a day
you can flip through all of them
and still there's nothing worth watching
T.V. is the reason why less than ten percent
of our nation reads books daily
why most people think Central America means Kansas
socialism means unamerican
and apartheid is a new headache remedy
absorbed in its world it's so hard to find us
it shapes our mind the most
maybe the mother of our nation
should remind us that we're sitting too close to...

(chorus)
Television, the drug of the nation
Breeding ignorance and feeding radiation

T.V. is the stomping ground
for political candidates
where bears in the woods
are chased by grecian formula'd bald eagles
T.V. is mechanized politic's
remote control over the masses
co-sponsored by enironmentally safe gases
watch for the PBS special
it's the perpetuation of the two-party system
where image takes precedence over wisdom
where sound bite politics are served
to the fastfood culture
where straight teeth in your mouth
are more important than the words
that come out of it
race baiting is the way to get elected
Willie Horton or will he not get elected on...

(chorus)
Televison, the drug of the nation
Breeding ignorance and feeding radiation

T.V., is it the reflector or the director
does it imitate us or do we imitate it
because a child watches 1500 murders
before he's twelve years old
and we wonder how we've created
a Jason generation that learns to laugh
rather than abhor the horror
T.V. is the place where armchair generals
and quarterbacks can experience first hand
the excitement of video warfare
as the themesong is sung in the background
sugar sweet sitcoms that leave us with
a bad actor taste while pop stars metamorphosize
into soda pop stars you saw the video
you heard the soundtrack
well now go buy the soft drink
well, the only cola that I support
is a union C.O.L.A. (cost of living allowance) on...

(chorus)
Television, the drug of the nation
Breeding ignorance and feeding radiation

Back again, "new and improved"
we return to our irregularly programmed schedule
hidden cleverly between heavy breasted
beer and car commmercials
CNNESPNABCTNT but mostly B.S.
where oxymoronic language like
"virtually spotless" "fresh frozen"
light yet filling" and
"military intelligence" have become standard
T.V. is the place where phrases are redefined
like "recession" to "necessary downturn"
"crude oil" on a beach to "mousse"
"civilian death" to "collateral damages"
and being killed by your own army
is now called "friendly fire"
T.V. is the place where the pursuit of
happiness has become the pursuit of trivia
where toothpaste and cars
have become sex objects
where imagination is sucked out of children
by a cathode ray nipple
T.V. is the only wet nurse
that would create a cripple
on...

(chorus)
Television, the drug of the nation
Breeding ignorance and feeding radiation


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: s6k
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 04:18 AM

and there is also "The Message" by grandmaster flash

i totally agree with the above post - you cannot judge rap by what you hear on the radio. like i said, its not even rap, its pop - entertainment, not music.

the "rap" artists of modern day give good rap a bad name, just like the cheeky girls give music a bad name


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: s6k
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 04:19 AM

just to add, the lyrics to "The Message" by Grandmaster Flash
excuse any mistakes, its a quick copy from t'internet
--------------------------------

Broken glass everywhere
People pissing on the stairs, you know they just
Don't care
I can't take the smell, I can't take the noise
Got no money to move out, I guess I got no choice
Rats in the front room, roaches in the back
Junkie's in the alley with a baseball bat
I tried to get away, but I couldn't get far
Cause the man with the tow-truck repossessed my car

Chorus:

Don't push me, cause I'm close to the edge
I'm trying not to loose my head
It's like a jungle sometimes, it makes me wonder
How I keep from going under

Standing on the front stoop, hangin' out the window
Watching all the cars go by, roaring as the breezes
Blow
Crazy lady, livin' in a bag
Eating out of garbage bins, used to be a fag-hag
Search and test a tango, skips the life and then go
To search a prince to see the last of senses
Down at the peepshow, watching all the creeps
So she can tell the stories to the girls back home
She went to the city and got so so so ditty
She had to get a pimp, she couldn't make it on her
Own

Chorus:
It's like a jungle sometimes, it makes me wonder
How I keep from goin' under

My brother's doing fast on my mother's t.v.
Says she watches to much, is just not healthy
All my children in the daytime, dallas at night
Can't even see the game or the sugar ray fight
Bill collectors they ring my phone
And scare my wife when I'm not home
Got a bum education, double-digit inflation
Can't take the train to the job, there's a strike
At the station
Me on king kong standin' on my back
Can't stop to turn around, broke my sacroiliac
Midrange, migraine, cancered membrane
Sometimes I think I'm going insane, I swear I might
Hijack a plane!


Chorus:


My son said daddy I don't wanna go to school
Cause the teacher's a jerk, he must think I'm a
Fool
And all the kids smoke reefer, I think it'd be
Cheaper
If I just got a job, learned to be a street sweeper
I dance to the beat, shuffle my feet
Wear a shirt and tie and run with the creeps
Cause it's all about money, ain't a damn thing
Funny
You got to have a con in this land of milk and
Honey
They push that girl in front of a train
Took her to a doctor, sowed the arm on again
Stabbed that man, right in his heart
Gave him a transplant before a brand new start
I can't walk through the park, cause it's crazy
After the dark
Keep my hand on the gun, cause they got me on the
Run
I feel like an outlaw, broke my last cast jaw
Hear them say you want some more, livin' on a
Seesaw

Chorus:

A child was born, with no state of mind
Blind to the ways of mankind
God is smiling on you but he's frowning too
Cause only God knows what you go through
You grow in the ghetto, living second rate
And your eyes will sing a song of deep hate
The places you play and where you stay
Looks like one great big alley way
You'll admire all the number book takers
Thugs, pimps, pushers and the big money makers
Driving big cars, spending twenties and tens
And you wanna grow up to be just like them, huh,
Smugglers, scrambles, burglars, gamblers
Pickpockets, peddlers and even plan-handlers
You say I'm cool, I'm no fool
But then you wind up dropping out of high school
Now you're unemployed,all null'n' void
Walking around like you're pretty boy floyd
Turned stickup kid, look what you done did
Got set up for a eight year bid
Now your man is took and you're a may tag
Spend the next two years as an undercover fag
Being used and abused, and served like hell
Till one day you was find hung dead in a cell
It was plain to see that your life was lost
You was cold and your body swung back and forth
But now your eyes sing the sad sad song
Of how you lived so fast and died so young


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 07:34 PM

Thanks, but I can't handle words neat. I'll take mine with melody, if you don't mind.

Rap is definitely an art form, and very clever no doubt, but music? I don't think so.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: s6k
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 04:18 AM

yes it is music, it is more music than is cheeky girls and all those crappy dance remixes of 80's songs that are out nowadays, with the same keyboard riffs in every son...... tune


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: shepherdlass
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 07:16 AM

Just a thought - wasn't Subterranean Homesick Blues actually a hybrid of folk, blues and rap before rap really existed?


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: s6k
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 09:18 AM

this is true!


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,Anominis
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 11:55 AM

yep I am back where is MY message about enjoying rap JERK


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,Jack Frost
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 12:31 PM

yep I am back where is MY message about enjoying rap JERK


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,Jess
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 06:01 PM

Hi I love rap music. I love music in every form and I enjoy blues lots to. In the chorus at my school. (and mac' n' cheese commercials, LOL) I have always enjoyed music and love it when I am introduced to a new kind
thanx for starting this shambles its great expresing opinions and great reading others and Terry Allen Hall I would think it better if you didnt speaak of rap that way calling it filth and all and I dont think ANYBODY should automatically assume that all rap music is filth and you should listen to some EMINEM he sings some great songs about how he made it to the top that EVEN MY DAD ENJOYS IT. Thanks for reading

-Jess


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,dodobird
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 08:05 PM

I have been checking out the neo-science of memetics lately, which argues that culture spreads through thought or idea replicators called memes. This point of view is especially attractive to me because of my maturing appreciation for folk music of all kinds. I decided to google the words meme and rap and I was pulled into an article in the Ohio University African American Studies Black Praxis web pages, entitled "Applying Memetics to the Historical Understanding of the African Diasporan Music Culture of North America."

I found this article to be an example of "meta-rap" of the highest order! Enjoy!

http://cscwww.cats.ohiou.edu/aas/blackpraxis/articles/frank1.html

Applying Memetics to the Historical Understanding of the African Diasporan Music


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,dodobird
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 08:26 PM


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,dodobird
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 08:28 PM

the link in my post goes to the second page of the article, my bad...
here is the corrected link:
Applying Memetics to the Historical Understanding of the African Diasporan Music


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 09:14 AM

This is a re-post from the current 'Folk combined with other genres' thread:

To expand this conversation, if roots Hip-Hop is considered part of folk music, then examples of jazz/Hip-Hop fusions should be included in this discussion.

See these comments from BassTalk discussion forum:

"ryan morris 04-10-2001, 08:57 PM
hey, anyone listen to music like this? it is kind of like feel good rap music with some neat bass lines here and there. examples would be:
digable planets
arrested development
jurassic 5
mos def
black star"

-snip-

"winston 04-10-2001, 09:09 PM
Don't forget Spearhead! And if you want to check out some of the roots of jazz/hip-hop fusion be sure to look into Gil-Scott Heron. Lauryn Hill's "Miseducation" also has some fine basswork."

-snip-

"ryan morris 04-11-2001, 10:08 AM
awesome, so you guy do listen to some of this stuff. i am going to be going music shopping today. it's like a weekly thing now. i can't wait to check out some of the suggestions.
some more similar artist would be:The Pharcyde,OutKast(older stuff), DJ Spooky, Dr. Octagon, Blackalicious, Company Flow, Common Latyrx, Black Sheep, The Roots,The Coup ,Lootpack, The Dust Brothers, The Automator, DJ Shadow, Q-Tip FreestyleFellowship, A Tribe Called Quest,Afrika Bambaataa, De La Soul, just to name a few"

-snip-

Click here for my other post in that thread on the subject of

Posts on Jazz/Hip-Hop fusion


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Azizi
Date: 04 May 05 - 10:02 PM

A post in a totally unrelated BS thread mentioned making music by farting and that made me think of Hip-Hop music. [that's supposed to be a joke}.

No really, a post in the thread Gas, WInd, Flatulence
talked about some guy who makes music by pretending to 'let out wind' as we used to call it in New Jersey.

And for some strange reason that made me think of Doug E. Fresh, the human beat box.

Don't recognize the name? Shame on you! The man invented [or at least popularized} a whole new way of making music. Interested?

Well, read on:

"Doug E Fresh and his former tag team partner MC Ricky D (aka Slick Rick) made a big splash in the hip-hop world when they emerged with their party rhymes; Rick with his unique style of speak and Dougie with the "human beatbox." They blew up with "The Show," a jam that remains a timeless hip-hop classic, along with "La Di Da Di" and others. Billed as The World's Greatest Entertainer, Doug E Fresh was just that, and he rocked the party.

Doug E Fresh been in the rap game for a long time. He started way back around 1981, when he was only about 13 years old, doing block parties and basically getting his name out there. "Back then it wasn't about records," Dougie says, "It was about your ability to get up there and perform for the crowd." He used to practice routines with his boys Barry B and Chill Will, who later became members of the Get Fresh Crew. Barry B was the one who actually coined the term "human beatbox" to describe the talent of making music with your mouth that made Dougie famous."

Here's more on
Doug E Fresh

Enjoy!


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Azizi
Date: 04 May 05 - 10:24 PM

The song I like best by Slick Rick and Doug E Fresh is
'La Di Da Di.' I think this old school rap is even more creative than their names-which I consider to be real creative.

And yes, that song contains a few X rated words, and a sexist reference or two BUT it has a party flava and some really memorable lines-like:

"La-di-da-di, we like to party.
We don't cause trouble, we don't bother nobody"

-snip-

and:

"..Stepped out the house stopped short, oh no
Went back in I forgot my Kangol
Then I dilly, DALLY, I ran through the ALLEY
I bumped into this homegirl named SALLY from the VALLEY
This was a girl playing hard to get
So I said "What's wrong?" cause she looked upset
She said uh, "It's all because of you
I'm feeling sad and blue
You went away
and now my life is filled with rainy days
I love you so
How much you'll never know
Cause you took your love away from me"

-snip-

and there's also "to the heart tick tock you don't stop
                  to the heart tick tock you don't quit, hit it!

-snip-

Here's the lyrics to this classic old school rap compliments of this website: La Di Da De


"Okay party people in the house...
This is something you never witnessed before...
Yes, it's the incredible Doug E. Fresh...
With his partner, the grand wizard MC, Ricky D
D, and that's me in the place to be.
We goin' to do it for '85, kick it live, allright?
Cuz you know, you're all sick of all these crap rappers
biting their rhymes because of they're back steppers.
But when it comes to me and my man Doug Fresh here,
there is no competition 'cause we are the best, yeah.
But as impress, which we approve
and yeah, we realize that we are on the move,
so listen closely so y'all don't miss
as we go a little something like this, HIT IT!

La-di-da-di...
La-di-da-di...
La-di, da-di!
Yo peep this

La-di-da-di, we like to party
We don't cause trouble, we don't bother nobody
We're, just some men that's on the mic
And when we rock upon the mic we rock the mic RIGHT
For all of y'all, keep y'all in health
Just to see you smile and enjoy yourself
Cause it's cool when you cause a cozy conditioning
Which we create, cause that's our mission
So listen close, to what we say
Because this type of shit happens everyday
I woke up around ten o'clock in the morning
I gave myself a stretch up, a morning yawn and
Went to the bathroom to wash up
Put some soap on my face and my hand upon a cup, said
Mirror mirror on the wall
Who is the top choice of them all
there was a rumble tumble, five minutes it lasted
the mirror said, "You are you conceited bastard!"
Well that true, that why we never had no beef
THen I washed off the soap and brushed the gold teeth
Used oil of olay cause my skin gets pail
and then I grabbed the file for my finger nails
I'm true to the style on my behalf
I put the bubbles in the tub so I could take a bubble bath
Clean, dry, was my, body and hair
I threw on my brand new Gucci underwear
For all the girls I might take home
I got the Johnson's Baby Powder and the Polo Cologne
Fresh dress, like a million bucks,
put on the Bally shoes and the fly green socks.
Stepped out the house stopped short, oh no
Went back in I forgot my Kangol
Then I dilly, DALLY, I ran through the ALLEY
I bumped into this homegirl named SALLY from the VALLEY
This was a girl playing hard to get
So I said "What's wrong?" cause she looked upset
She said uh, "It's all because of you
I'm feeling sad and blue
You went away
and now my life is filled with rainy days
I love you so
How much you'll never know
Cause you took your love away from me"
Now what was I to do
She was crying over me and she was feeling blue
I said, "Don't cry, dry, your eyes
Here comes your mother with those two little guys"
Her mean mother steps and says to me "Hi!"
Hit Sally in the face and deckedvi her in the eye
punched her in the belly, and stepped on her feet
Slammed the child on the hard concrete
The bitch was strong, the kids was gone
Something was wrong I said what was going on?
I tried to break it up I said, stop it, leave her
She said, "If I can't have you she can't either"
She grabbed me closely by my socks
So I broke the hell out like I had the chicken pox
But uh, she gave chase, she caught up quick
She put a finger in the face of MC Rick, and said
"Why don't you give me some play?
And we can go cruising in my old jag
And if you give me that OK
I'll give you all my love today
Ricky Ricky Ricky, can't you see
Somehow your words just hypnotize me
And I just love your jazzy ways
So MC Rick my love is here to stay"
And on and on and on she kept on
The bitch been around before my mother's born
I said, "Cheer up!" I gave her a kiss
I said, "You can't have me I'm too young for you miss"
She said, "No you're not," then she starts crying
I says, "I'm nineteen", she says, "Stop lying!"
I said, "I am -- go ask my mother
And with your wrinkled pussy, I can't be your lover!"
To the heart tick tock you don't stop
To the heart tick tock you don't quit, hit it!

-snip-

I conclude this post with the end quote from that website:

"...don't ever forget, Doug E. Fresh, and MC Ricky D..."


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Azizi
Date: 04 May 05 - 10:32 PM

I should say that I don't approve of the violence in the La Di Da Di rap.

BUT I still stand by my previous post. I like 'La Di Da Di' because of its creative rhyming and its memorable lines.

I also like its beat.

Old school rules!!!


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,alexander
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 10:40 PM

I am ten and kid my age like raap and all that stuff I like jazz and blues. all those haters of both genres blues hating rap fans be proud because helped shape all modern music genres including rap jazz rock pop hip hop even modern country so stop argueing about it im out


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,Hookey Wole
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 11:00 PM

Alex you are proud and loud

10 years old and fiercing up to all the old dead men walking & talking their petrified decomposing drizzle slouch off
to sad dead culture oblivion..

I also believe that seminal legends Al Bowlly & Jessie Matthews
were the genetic foundation that modern cross genre rap and extreme metal were birthed from.

Crikey, you sound so perceptive I'd almost be persuaded you were a 60 year old folkie
masquerading as a pre pubescent child. !!!??

but of course that would never happen here at mudcat .....


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Apr 12 - 09:03 AM

Rap and blues are like first cousins...

My son does rap... I play blues... And it ain't a "verses" thing... WE have actually performed together incorporating the blues and rap into one song... Worked out fine...

B~


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: matt milton
Date: 30 Apr 12 - 07:00 AM

anyone heard the Willis Earl Beal album? It clearly shows that blues and rap sit well together.

Equally, listen to New Kingdom's album Paradise Don't Come Cheap.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 30 Apr 12 - 01:19 PM

The problem with rap is who wants to watch some 60-year-old idiot strutting across the stage on his good leg to a drum track? Spare me. It's for kids. It's teeny-bopper shit trying to look bad. It DOES sound bad--I'll agree to that much.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Apr 12 - 07:20 PM

Oh, bull, joez...

You must not have heard much rap... It ain't all about "niggas and bitches"...

My son's rap is story telling... Real stories... And it sounds good...

B~


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: matt milton
Date: 01 May 12 - 05:26 AM

plus, blues is not just made by "60-year-old idiots" with bad legs!


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Bobert
Date: 01 May 12 - 09:11 AM

It isn't???

lol...

B~


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 May 12 - 09:22 AM

How can you compare rap which if performed in English, is English gone totally wrong, with blues?


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 May 12 - 12:24 PM

Both blues and rap are arbitrary labels generally provided by recording companies to market their product. There are many forms of both. Early rap was like blues in that it conveyed the history of the African-American experience. The two are tributaries of the same river.

One hallmark of an expressive song is its specificity in imagery. Both blues and rap serve this purpose. Blues and Rap both have a tendency to glorify the myth of male superiority and bravado. This is an essential element because of the emasculation of the black male in white society. It's an attempt to say "I am somebody".

The blues and rap you hear on the radio is often uncharacteristic of the music found in the "hood" or in the deep south.

Blues evolves as it is exemplified by Charlie Parker.

Rap and Blues finds their way into jazz and as a verbal vehicle of expression of a kind of folk poetry, emanating culturally from the Griots of Africa.   Both Blues and Rap tell the story of Black suppression. For that matter, jazz started that way also from Congo Square in New Orleans through to John Coltrane or Esperanza Spalding.

Both form a firm foundation for the evolution of African-American music. There is no versus here but a remarkable cohesive connection which has enriched the musical culture of America and cultures worldwide.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 01 May 12 - 01:39 PM

Bobert,

Rap IS about drug, guns, prison and hos. That's ALL it's about. Storytelling is NOT rap. "Evidence" by Dave Young is NOT rap. It has real instruments and the words are about the crimes that Africa itself has committed on black people (and written by Leroi Jones). Gil-Scott Heron was NOT rap. From what I understand, he found rap to be an embarrassment and did not want his name associated with it. Today's rappers are pathetic compared to him. Rap does not tell a story. It's teeny-bopper shit for street kids who don't give a fuck about your fucking stories.

Storytelling is NOT RAP!!!! Please do not degrade the art of storytelling with such a shitheaded comparison. PLEASE get a brain.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: matt milton
Date: 01 May 12 - 04:41 PM

if you listen to, say, Robert Johnson you'll hear a fair bit about drugs, guns, prison and "hos".


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 01 May 12 - 05:55 PM

But blues is not rap. To kids today, hip-hop is not rap, DJ mixes are not rap and techno is not rap. Just because a guy is talking instead of singing doesn't make it rap to rap fans. If he's reciting jazz poetry it is not rap. They see huge differences just like kids today see huge differences between punk, goth, death metal, black metal, thrash, etc. If you try to pass one off as the other, they'll call you a phony or an idiot or both.

So why call what you do rap? Why pigeon-hole it? Nobody respects that. Every artist always says he's doing something different from everyone else. So reject the rap label. Rap is dead.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Bobert
Date: 01 May 12 - 09:22 PM

Bull, joesz...

My son laid down a rap in front of a bunch of redneck country people that had nothing to do with the stuff you think rap is about... It was entitled "We're the same"... Here's a kid from Portland, Or. and he wrote this song the night before and performed it and guess what???

People (rednecks) loved it...

You need to rethink think this, man... You are usually cool... Not here...

B~


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST
Date: 02 May 12 - 01:54 AM

josepp is not "usually cool" when it comes to talking about music, B'bert. He tends to mindless ranting, not unlike his fellow Michigander, Ted Nugent;-)


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 02 May 12 - 05:43 AM

Stringsinger got it partly right:

Both blues and rap are arbitrary labels generally provided by recording companies to market their product. There are many forms of both. Early rap was like blues in that it conveyed the history of the African-American experience

The current incarnation of "rap" is very much a promotion label, and is strictly linked to "commercialization."

While rap has been adopted by the African-American culture, the first detailed examples I encountered were from US West Coast Hispanic cultures ca very early 1950s. I suspect a fairly long tradition before my contact with it then.

While I've heard very little "recent Hispanic rap" my impression is that in some places where it remains associated with its origins it remains a very much "less aggressive" form.

There may be some bias due to the circumstances in which I first heard much of it, but within the Hispanic tradition a popular "topic" was "free form (ad lib) recitations of Bible verses/stories," and it appeared to be a well established performance form within some (ghetto?) Hispanic churches.

As with early blues, "if you did it the same twice, you might be accused of losing the spirit;" but of course in variable form you can't publish it and make a profit, so it was exclusively a "live performance" thing in the earlier "free" form, so far as I heard of it.

Calling the "original" form (to the extent I've seen it) "music" is a stretch, but much of the earlier stuff could well be called "poetry." I don't listen to enough of the current commercialization of any of it to say whether much of that has much, if any, really poetic content. What I hear "by accident" doesn't impress me much.

Rap quite probably could reasonably be called a "ghetto tradition" in order to be more inclusive of various origins, but ascribing it's origins to African-American culture is simply WRONG. The HATRED in currently promoted "black rap" may have had its origins in African-American culture, but there's a lot more to the "rap tradition" than that.

Unfortunately, I suspect considerable difficulty in finding much documentation of any true "roots" for the art (regardless of whether or not one wants to generous enough to include the current commercially hyped stuff in that description).

John


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: matt milton
Date: 02 May 12 - 07:01 AM

"So why call what you do rap? Why pigeon-hole it? Nobody respects that. Every artist always says he's doing something different from everyone else. So reject the rap label. Rap is dead."

Well, to be pedantic about it, rapping isn't the music, it's the, er, rapping. Which a rapper does. Hip-Hop is the music traditionally associated with rapping, and was traditionally performed alongside a scratching DJ. These days, it's all up for grabs, with much hip-hop sounding like techno, and a lot of electronica having absorbed hip-hop influences.

A rapper might rap over techno, rock or dubstep. He's still rapping though. He's still a rapper.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 02 May 12 - 06:12 PM

"Rap" has part of African-American communities since before the "American" got put in there. Rhythmic rhyming and narratives, with a lot of the same floating verses, rhyme pairs, and themes, have been repeated in work chants, toasts, "the dozens", as well as in storytelling, and religious ceremonies have been part of the oral tradition for centuries. Pieces like "The Signifying Monkey" have African origins, and have grown and been changed in the way that folk and traditional material changes. Some people may not be comfortable with some of the things that have come out of the process, but that doesn't change what it is.


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Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Bobert
Date: 02 May 12 - 08:54 PM

Yeah, Stim... Rap certainly has an abundance of African American influence... When you listen to old recording of "the dozens" there is a lot of Rap in it... The entire work chants/field hollers is very much part of rap...

B~


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