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singing as we would speak
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Long Firm Freddie Date: 08 Dec 25 - 07:51 AM Nicola Kearey of Stick In The Wheel is from East London and sings as she speaks: Stick in the Wheel: Bows of London LFF |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: The Sandman Date: 08 Dec 25 - 07:28 AM no ,i happened to hear two singers from nottingham jill and bernard blackwell] singing ae fond kiss, very good |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Tattie Bogle Date: 08 Dec 25 - 05:50 AM Have you seen Eddi Reader sings Burns?? Or perhaps it should be Eddi Reader flings Burns ?? |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: The Sandman Date: 06 Dec 25 - 02:54 PM and thats another reason i left old skibbereen |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 06 Dec 25 - 01:03 PM Ed Pickford's concise version of the 'Green Green Grass of Home' ' The old towmn looked the same so I got back on the train' |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: The Sandman Date: 06 Dec 25 - 12:36 PM off subject but talkiNg of singers who have things flung about reminds me of Tom Jones |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 06 Dec 25 - 11:32 AM off subject maybe but talking of singers 'flinging their arms about', TV news presenters have adopted this wholesale, as have modern footballers- can't stand any of it |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Nick Dow Date: 04 Dec 25 - 12:31 PM Mick Tems would know a lot about that Dick. He approached me with his collection and asked about how he should organise it, so I have an idea what's there. He's finding life a bit easier now after his stroke, and I've seen him a couple of times. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,The Sandman Date: 04 Dec 25 - 11:12 AM I am interested to hear about singing in Wales. It would appear many English song collectors only collected in English speaking parts of Wales such as the Gower, Where there was evidence of mouth music from singers like Phil Tanner. I am curious to know where tradtional singers sang their songs, particularly on dry areas on sundays. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Backwoodsman Date: 04 Dec 25 - 10:16 AM ”It's the performance that can do me in, face pulling, Shirley Bassey arms flinging about.” What if the singer pulls faces and flings his/her arms about when speaking? I’ll get me coat… ;-) |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Keith Price Date: 04 Dec 25 - 09:52 AM It's not so much the voice for me, as long as it's not too operatic. It's the performance that can do me in, face pulling, Shirley Bassey arms flinging about. The drama if any is and should be in the song. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,matt milton Date: 04 Dec 25 - 08:34 AM Of course nobody LITERALLY sings in exactly the same way they speak as to state the obvious singing and speaking are different things. But I do like singers whose singing voice is in much the same vocal range as their speaking voice, and whose delivery tends to avoid drama or over-embellishment.Singers such as Bill Callahan, Leonard Cohen, Johnny Cash, Martin Carthy, Shirley Collins. I like singers who sing vocal lines in a meter reasonably close to how it would be spoken - within the overall caveat that they are of course singing... I hate singers who destroy the sense or meter of a line by over ornamenting. There are of course singers who are part of a tradition of singing in which certain embellishments or ornamentation is a part of that tradition. Sean nos singing for example. But even then, there is still ways to do ornamentation judiciously, as with great singers such as Joe Heaney, Paddy Tunney, Sarah Makem. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST Date: 04 Dec 25 - 08:30 AM In some parts of ireland regional gealic spelling is still used "Scoraíocht""Scroacht" Scoríocht" |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,the sandman Date: 04 Dec 25 - 08:25 AM Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST Date: 04 Dec 25 - 07:34 AM oh I see- if CCE says that, it must be true....?? Yes, although it is older than the organisation CCE, which came into existence in the early 1950,S anonymous trolls hide under philosophical bridges, negative cowards |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Keith Price Date: 04 Dec 25 - 08:07 AM Any chance of 'Guests' identifying themselves in some manner. It's getting confusing. Thanks |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST Date: 04 Dec 25 - 07:34 AM oh I see- if CCE says that, it must be true....?? |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST Date: 04 Dec 25 - 03:59 AM "Scoraíocht" is a type of Irish performance competition that combines Irish traditional music, song, dance, and storytelling into a themed show, notes Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann. It can be performed with a detailed script or with a more improvisational structure where a producer uses a variety of musical and performance elements to develop a theme with a minimum of dialogue, says Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,The Sandman Date: 04 Dec 25 - 03:46 AM Traditional songs[ other than shanties] were sung in the home, at work [ploughing, milking etc], in Bothys and at the rambling house, and other house "get togethers" the idea that tradtional songs were only sung in pubs is incorrect. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST Date: 03 Dec 25 - 07:25 PM scroacht |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Nick Dow Date: 03 Dec 25 - 03:05 PM Masterful deflection Paul! |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 03 Dec 25 - 02:50 PM Typical for two (same and only two) places: “The Mass will be followed by the theatre group’s usual scriacht, which will in turn be followed by teas and coffees, sandwiches, and a raffle.” [Pyke Theatre Group to hold its annual mass] Alt spelling returns one hit for a Fastnet Maritime and Folk Festival programme… w/Dick Miles et al. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Paul Burke Date: 03 Dec 25 - 02:25 PM "traditional British folk song is an ancient tradition" [Citation needed] Depends of course on what you mean by "folk song" (see Boyes and Roud) and "ancient". And "British" of course. And "an" - aren't there quite a number of traditions in Britain? |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 03 Dec 25 - 02:18 PM If the mid-19th century pub was near a waterfront, a large percentage of the singers and audience were also working merchant mariners: “I shall never forget hearing an old salt, who had broken his voice by hard drinking on shore, and bellowing from the mast-head in a hundred north-westers, with all manner of ungovernable trills and quavers – in the high notes, breaking into a rough falsetto – and in the low ones, growling along like the dying away of the boatswain's “all hands ahoy!”” [Two Years Before the Mast, Dana] And, if that electric bass player is sporting a tri-corner hat, “shanties” is just fine. Party on dudes. Maritime museum docents &c&c, a tad more historically accurate wardrobe/accompaniment/voice/glossary is called for. Trad singers somewhere in the middle of the ol' Bell Curve. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 03 Dec 25 - 01:52 PM ok- over to my old pal in Ireland- there was a radio programme I think? in West cork which, with whatever spelling ,would keep this man happy- can you remember it? |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Jinks Date: 03 Dec 25 - 01:47 PM spelling error- does 'scriacht' work for you Nope. There's no word 'scriacht' in Irish> https://www.teanglann.ie/en/fgb/_s |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST Date: 03 Dec 25 - 12:48 PM spelling error- does 'scriacht' work for you |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Jinks Date: 03 Dec 25 - 12:30 PM For the record, the word 'Scroacht' does not exist in Irish. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Nick Dow Date: 03 Dec 25 - 12:03 PM I'm a bit puzzled as to how you can be passive and a preserver (actively, that is). Georgina Boyes did not demolish anything; in fact, quite the opposite. And while we're on the subject, traditional British folk song is an ancient tradition. If you are going to sing a folk song, it really helps to know about what you are singing. Why you are singing is another matter altogether. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Paul Burke Date: 03 Dec 25 - 07:18 AM I prefer fivebitters. Or more. But I thought any notion of us folkies being primarily passive preservers of some idealised ancient tradition from a golden age would have been quietly dropped after Georgina Boyes' demolition job. We ain't. We sing songs. In my case, not as I speak, because I don't speak in rhyme or with a tune.And I certainly don't care about somebody's definition of song type X. Did I ever see a wild goose a- sailing non the ocean? No. And as for playing tunes... I really couldn't care less that somebody thinks they are dance tunes, and should be played so they can dance to them. Get someone else to do that, or learn to dance better. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 02 Dec 25 - 05:49 PM Shanties are not excluisive to England English is not exclusive to England and the classic shanty definition, as stated, allows for everything from fiddle instrumentals to forebitters. But... throw in all unspoken publisher/consumer preferences and +90% of maritime work song is off the program altogether. None of that has anything to with what 'voice' any of it should be delivered in. More better here: Help: What is a 'forebitter' or What is a Shanty |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Backwoodsman Date: 02 Dec 25 - 04:53 PM ‘Chauvinistism’? Perhaps you mean chauvinism? |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST Date: 02 Dec 25 - 04:31 PM Shanties are not excluisive to England- or is this just a little more chauvinistism from the master race? |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 02 Dec 25 - 01:05 PM The most rigid definition of “shanty,” has three critical attributes: English, mid-19th century and merchant marine. The best forebitters can do is 1:3. One can reenact or demonstrate with the same limitations as anything else 19th century but that's what one will be doing… acting or demonstrating. Drifting back on topic, ones acting voice is (usually) not ones speaking voice. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 02 Dec 25 - 12:40 PM The idea that traditional singers only sang in pubs is incorrect Just sometimes, and when they do... and its more about the "what" and "how" than the "who" or "where." Moving it to the kitchen or front stoop won't magically convert that forebitter to a shanty. That takes physics aka work. The stage has come with its own maritime traditions since the days of Martial (artist) and Polybius (historian): "The present Manager of the Chatham Garden Theatre, was formerly a Lieutenant in the British Navy. He was afterwards on the boards of the Norwich Company in England. He was principally applauded for singing a common sailor's chant in character – having a sort of “Sally Brown, oh, ho,” chorus; and requiring the action of pulling a rope, spitting upon the hand, and the accompaniment of a horrid yell….” [Horace in New York, Campbell, 1826] Forebitters are not shanties. They are forebitters and always have been. There is no maritime "work" involved. Calling them traditional work song denies the singer and the stage of their own traditions does it not? |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,The Sandman Date: 02 Dec 25 - 03:40 AM Other places where song and music took place i Ireland included Rambling houses and meetings where gossip storytelling songs and tunes took place in peoples houses song tunes AKA Scroacht [sic] songs tune and stories took place in Bothys In Scotland, The idea that traditional singers only sang in pubs is incorrect |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,The Sandman Date: 01 Dec 25 - 04:27 AM https://stephraemoran.com/how-work-songs- work songs in uk and irelandimproved-daily-life-in-ireland-and-scotland/ link to article on work songsin ireland and uk other than shanties |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 30 Nov 25 - 06:20 PM Forebitter style rowing songs (and Hollywood) are capable of changing tempo, ergo hull speed, in a single beat, a la Ben Hur. A traditional work song would require several hull lengths and many dozen strokes worth of accelerando for a vessel of any size. And it would be accomplished by a change first in song tone. One strokes harder (or softer) in order to row faster (or slower) over time. The lead voice would be a command voice (oratory, proceleusmatic &c&c) not a conversational tone for most singers. Too, the forebitter chorus is neither captive nor subordinate. Mind, if one is just singing for a good time… do it that way. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Norfolk and good Date: 30 Nov 25 - 06:11 AM This thread exposes Lloyds scholarship |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Nick Dow Date: 30 Nov 25 - 03:03 AM Thanks. On with the original discussion. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 29 Nov 25 - 06:02 PM Song & more links here: Origins: The Weaver and the Factory Maid And Bert's bits get the usual going over here: Bertsongs? (songs of A. L. 'Bert' Lloyd) |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Nick Dow Date: 29 Nov 25 - 02:33 PM Hopefully this is a not too disagreeable point of order, and probably irrelevant to the discussion. I believe 'The Weaver and the Factory maid' was a broadsheet put to a traditional tune (The Irish boy collected by Sharp in Somerset) by Bert Lloyd to further his interest in industrial folk song. In the light of that my belief is that it can not be held up as any example of Traditional singing style. Yes it has a Roud number and yes there is the name of a singer William Oliver of Widnes, and no I do not believe he existed. I admit I have not read Roy Palmer's comments in the 1977 FSJ, so my mind is still open. It's still a belting song though. If anybody has info please start a separate thread, or it is not fair on Dick's OP. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Doug Chadwick Date: 29 Nov 25 - 09:13 AM I remember reading somewhere that songs sung in English tend to have one note per syllable, and one syllable per word, and that that's how you tell when a song was composed in English. Alas(1w,2s) my love(1s,2n) you do me wrong(1s,2n) To cast me off(1s,2n) discourteously(1w,5s,4n) So what language was Greensleeves composed in? The way I sing it, the two syllable 'Greensleeves' has, at different points, 2, 3 and 4 notes. There are many, many more English songs that don't conform to the 'one note per syllable, and one syllable per word' tendancy. DC |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Jack Campin Date: 28 Nov 25 - 08:12 PM What singers think they're doing, and what they say they're doing, often has very little resemblance to what goes down on a recording machine. There is an urban legend in the Scottish folk scene that Gaelic singers (and Travellers in particular) do the same melodic ornaments as Highland pipers. Listen to what they're actually doing, and no they aren't, not by a very long way. You need to be very skeptical of claims like "I just sing the way I speak". |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 28 Nov 25 - 06:31 PM A shanty verse was one voice (typical.) Where multiple capstans were involved, the chorus voices could run to triple digits. The words follow the rhythm. The rhythm follows the work. Speak like actual jerk (or shove) physics are involved. For accompaniment, may I suggest kettlebells? Work is, after all, measured in ergs. Coincidence? I think not! |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Dave the Gnome Date: 28 Nov 25 - 11:46 AM Do I remember one of the Kipper family referring to "Foreskin Shanties" or was that someone else? |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 28 Nov 25 - 11:01 AM MaJoC's €0.02: I remember reading somewhere that songs sung in English tend to have one note per syllable, and one syllable per word, and that that's how you tell when a song was composed in English.* What I do myself in practice depends on the song and the circumstances: in The Handweaver and the Factory Maid, the rhythm comes from the words, while in * Origin unknown. Enlightenment humbly requested. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Vic Smith Date: 28 Nov 25 - 10:43 AM Jim That was my failed attemot to insert a "Thumbs UP!" symbol on Mudcat. I'm afraid that I have forgotten how to do it. Are ye aye cribbin' yer bit? Vic |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Vic Smith Date: 28 Nov 25 - 09:54 AM Jim Bainbridge's post?? |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 28 Nov 25 - 08:17 AM A folk club shanty is a forebitter. It may be based on traditional work song, then again, maybe not. That's a stage tradition all its own. Real mariners speak as they sing... except for pitch, resonance, rhythm, tempo, tone, volume and some other stuff. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Dave the Gnome Date: 28 Nov 25 - 07:38 AM An old friend, now sadly passed away, used to sing Tom Jone's 'Delilah' in his broad norther accent Ah saw a leet on the neet that ah passed by 'er windder... |
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