 sj |
||
|
||
REQ: Native Amer Songs
|
|
|
Subject: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: Susan-Marie Date: 26 Jan 00 - 12:03 PM Here I am again, looking for music appropriate for a church service that's less than two weeks away. The speaker is a Native American, so I'm looking for Native American songs. The DT turned up one with lyrics and a midi but it's kind of depressing, and it's ABOUT native americans, not a traditional native american song. I tried some of the native american web sites mentioned in threads about indian culture, but none seemed to have music. So, anyone have some inspirational native american songs that they could post a midi or ABC file for? If y'all come through for me, I'll send this week's church offering to the Mudcat instead! Many Thanks. |
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: InOBU Date: 26 Jan 00 - 12:20 PM What state are you in, as it might be a good idea to get music from local native performers, You can call the BIA Beareau of Indian Affairs, part of the dept. of the Interior, in Washington DC, and they can give you a listing of reservations in your area. There is no place in the US where you are far from one. Call the tribal council, or whatever the governing body is called, and I am sure they will recomend who ever their local tallent is. Most midwestern native nations have drum circles, and some east coast nations do as well. I am presuming you are in the US! If you are not, I can forward this to my friend who works for the Musium of the American Indian, in NY, in the film Deptartment, who writes articals on native culture, and is, of course, native herself. BUT! If you can go the extra mile to have local natives take part, it may introduce you to neighbors that have issue your church may wish to understand and offer cooperation on... (on which to offer cooperation to be gramatically correct...) All the best Larry |
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: GUEST,T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) Date: 26 Jan 00 - 12:52 PM Susan-Marie, depending on what you have in mind, two weeks may simply not be enough time to prepare. If by "traditional native American songs" you mean "songs that are traditional among people who are registered members of federally recognized tribes", then many of our familiar folk songs would qualify. Some songs and hymns that have long circulated among Newcomer- or Yankee-Americans have circulated also among some Indians. As I have mentioned previously in this forum, when the new Principal Chief of the Cherokee Nation was sworn in last summer, one of the songs that was sung was "Amazing Grace" with Cherokee words. If you mean "songs that are traditional mainly, or entirely, among those who are members of a single federally recognized tribe", then your work is likely to be more difficult. Your singers may (or may not) need to learn to pronounce an unfamiliar language and accustom themselves to an unfamiliar tonality and unfamiliar conventions of ornamentation. Also you don't want to commit any faux-pas. If your speaker is an Ojibway, you might not want to sing a Lakota war song commemorating a great military victory over the Ojibways. In fact, singing any Lakota song for an Ojibway visitor might in many (not necessarily all) circumstances be taken as a bit of "they all look alike and sound alike" ignorance. A bit more information might be helpful. What is your visitor's ancestral tribe, and what is the topic of the talk your visitor will give ? Will the talk be a sermon on the appointed scriptures of the day ? T. |
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: GUEST Date: 26 Jan 00 - 01:16 PM The Library of Congress Folklore Archive has many volumes of songs from various tribes of native Americans. |
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: GUEST,Okiemockbird Date: 26 Jan 00 - 01:55 PM Here is a Song & Drum page. I can't vouch for its accuracy or quality, but I saw nothing obviously wrong on my quick glance through. Here is a list of music links. T.
|
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: GUEST,Susan-Marie (from a different computer) Date: 26 Jan 00 - 02:13 PM Larry - I'm in MAryland, near DC. I don't think we have any reservations around here, but I'll check the BIA website. Being near DC, I could go to the National Archives, but with 2 small children to care for, it's just easier to get stuff off the web during naptime than to go to the library. Maybe in 18 years I'll have the time to do that again! T. - I don't know what tribe the speaker is from, but I will ask. I've already asked if she would like to recommend some songs - haven't heard back. Yes, less than two weeks is not enough time to come up with something truly authentic. Thus, I'm looking for "appropriate" and not offensive. For example, our choir once did a song called I Walk in Beauty that was based on a native american song. I believe I've also heard native american songs sung as rounds at song circles (there's one in RUS). I'm hesitant to mangle a foreign language, so songs in english that are based on native american writings or songs or themes would probably be the safest bet. Any suggestions? You mentioned that some songs and hymns have circulated among native americans - can you give me some examples, in additiona to "amazing grace"? Too bad this speaker was a last-minute replacement for our regular minister, it would have been fun spending months planning this.... |
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: Bert Date: 26 Jan 00 - 02:21 PM How about this one? |
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: GUEST,Okiemockbird Date: 26 Jan 00 - 02:57 PM Susan-Marie, In your situation I think I would count on the strength of my own denominational traditions. If the speaker is a member of your own denomination (which you suggest but don't explicitly say) you don't want to suggest that your denomination's traditional music is less hers than yours, simply because her ancestors were resident on this continent longer than yours. Likewise if the "Native American Themes" are consistent with your denomination's message, do you perhaps demean them by suggesting that they would never be incorporated into your worship if the substitute pastor didn't have Indian ancestry ? and do you perhaps slight the strength and breadth of your denomination's message by suggesting that these "Native American Themes", even though they are consistent with your message and therefore implicit in it already, are somehow more hers than yours ? I don't necessarily know that I'd answer these questions either "yes" or "no" in your situation, but I'd think about them. A list of federally recognized tribes is here. T. P.S. in case it matters to anyone's evaluation of my opinions: I have no documented Indian ancestry. Those who believe in the existence of WASPs would probably classify me as one, though I don't think of myself in such terms. |
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 26 Jan 00 - 03:49 PM Hello Susan-Marie, The United Methodist Hymnal © 1989 lists seven hymns in the index as having Native American Sources. Of the seven, only two can be heard here because of copyright. They are #244, 'Twas in the Moon of Wintertime and #378, Amazing Grace (which has words in Cherokee, Navajo, Kiowa, Creek and Choctaw). If this helps, remember about a contribution to the Mudcat! ;-) Mary |
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: katlaughing Date: 26 Jan 00 - 03:51 PM Susan Marie, there is one which Libana sings (they are an acapella women's group in Boston) called Mowtay. IT is easy to learn and the words translate to "The spirit and I are one, foever and ever." It was written by a Native American. I have several others on tapes and cd's of Native Americans. I could send you voice email with the tune or, if i can find time, a simple midi of the tune with an email or personal message with the words, if you'd like. Send me a personal mesage with your email addy if you want me to do that, okay. Later tonight, I will post some more references. There is a group here on the Wind River Rez who has beautiful songs but no tapes, so I haven't had a chance to learn them I also have links to several NAtive sites with midis of some wonederful songs, I will post later. Thanks, katlaughing |
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: Marymac90 Date: 26 Jan 00 - 04:04 PM Dear T, Although I'm not the one dealing with this question/problem, I feel an urge to commend you on the thoughtfullness and consideration implicit in your reply to this question. You have obviously spent a lot of time and energy figuring out ways that "newcomers" can relate to natives and native culture that are not oppressive or patronizing. I just wanted to let you know that somebody out here saw, understood, and appreciated what you were explaining. Keep up the good work! Best regards, Mary McCaffrey |
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: paddymac Date: 26 Jan 00 - 04:26 PM Susan-Marie: suggest you contact |
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: katlaughing Date: 26 Jan 00 - 05:04 PM Tbird, Mary and Bert, great links! Thanks for posting them. katlaughing |
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: Susan-Marie Date: 26 Jan 00 - 05:22 PM T. - Hmmm, I'm not sure I understand your questions exactly, so if this reply isn't responsive it's not because I'm being evasive. I belong to a Unitarian Universalist church, which accepts all forms of worship as valid. I don't know what denomination our speaker is, if any. On Sundays when the choir doesn't sing, I arrange for "special music" for the service. We have Irish music (non-religious) for the Samhain and St. Patrick's day services, Hebrew music for the Channuka service, and I'm not sure what the music was during the Hari Krishna service, but it complemented the service well. We had folk songs about rivers for a service about rivers, blues music about travelling for the service about journeys - you get the picture. Our regular services often use native american readings, but our hymnal has only one native american round (which disappointed me greatly). Our choir has sung arrangements of songs based on native american texts. My desire to provide music with a native american connection for this particular service is based on mere aesthetics, nothing more. I will give some more thought to your questions, though. And thanks for the links. Mary and Bert - Thanks for the suggestions. Katlaughing - A friend has the Libana book, I'll look at it. Thanks for the tip. I'll also send you a personal message, I'd love to have more material to choose from. |
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: katlaughing Date: 26 Jan 00 - 06:14 PM Susan-Marie, the Libana books should have some others in it, too, then, as they do sing several trad NA songs, including The Earth Is Our Mother and Ancient Mother. Animaterra may have some good ideas, too, as her group does simlar things to Libana, among others. Look forward to hearing from you. katlaughing |
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: GUEST,Okiemockbird Date: 26 Jan 00 - 06:48 PM katlaughing, what is the precise title of the "Libana book" ? I'd be skeptical of any song called "The Earth is Our Mother" being a "traditional" song in the sense of clearly reflecting the content of any pre-contact Indian religion. (It might be "traditional" in some other sense.) The ancient Greeks belived that Gea was the mother of the gods. The ancient Romans sacrificed every year to Tellus Mater. I have yet to see reliable evidence of an earth-mother (as opposed to, say, a corn-mother) in any pre-contact Indian religion. That doesn't mean there wasn't one--the Lakota, in some of their rituals, mention in passing a "mother and grandmother" earth, but I don't know how far back this tradition goes--but the trail is confused by contact with the clear European tradition of "Mother Earth". T. |
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: katlaughing Date: 26 Jan 00 - 07:11 PM I don't know Tbird, will have to get back to you. Ya know, no offense intended, butI have studied a lot and attended many powwows and sundances over the years, all of them authentic. Some of my best friends are in drum groups and are dancers. And, I don't think any of them would care one bit if it was authentic or not; the sentiment and sincerity of it is what matters most to them. In a sweat with an elder from S. Dakota I had the honour of being told my heart was "red" and that was good enough for them and me. And, I just remembered I have a wonderful book which has "authentic" songs in it, as they were transcribed in the 1800's, The Indian's Book: Authentic Native American Legends, Lore, & Music recorded and edited by Natalie Curtis (1875-1921). Susan-Marie, I could scan in a few of the songs & email them to you as files, if you'd like. Just let me know. Thanks, katlaughing |
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: GUEST,Okiemockbird Date: 26 Jan 00 - 08:27 PM Susan-Marie, Like katlaughing I admire Ms. Curtis's book. It was published in paperback by Dover, and may be available in that edition at your local bookstore. It contains material collected from Abenaki folk and from a number of Plains and Southwest nations. The title page in mine differs from katlaughing's though. Mine has: The Indians' Book: An Offering by the American Indians of Indian Lore, Musical and Narrative, to Form a Record of the Songs and Legends of their Race, recorded and edited by Natalie Curtis. The cover has The Indians' Book: Songs and Legends of the American Indians, recorded and edited by Natalie Curtis. katlaughing, I didn't mean to question the sincerity of anyone's religious belief. I'm sorry if what I wrote came across that way. What I think is that making rash assumptions about the antiquity or origin of certain practices, or combinations of practices, can impede understanding. T. |
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: katlaughing Date: 26 Jan 00 - 08:52 PM T-bird, it's okay. I think we've had this debate before. Just remember, some of us have some knowledge too, okay? No offense intended. BTW, my title page says the same thing. I only gave the title of the book, from the front cover, in the above message. According to my Contents, there's info from the following tribes (their spellings, not mine) by region: Wabanaki, Dakota, Pawnee, Cheyenne, Arapaho, Kiowa; Winnebago; Kwakiutl; Pima, Apache, Mojave-Apache, Yuma, Navajo; Pueblo, Z&utildeni, San Juan, Acoma, Laguna, & Hopi. Of the Native American music, Ms. Curtis heard for the first time while in the Southwest, she said, "(it was) the spontaneous and sincere expression of the soul of a people." And that it "springs from our own continent, and is thus, of all music, distinctly American." All the best, katlaughing |
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: katlaughing Date: 27 Jan 00 - 12:05 AM THIS: Z&utildeni was supposed to be : Zuni with a tilde over the u; don't know why it didn't work. Sorry. |
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: InOBU Date: 27 Jan 00 - 08:10 AM Dear Friends: Okiemockbird, you mention that your definition is limited, in this instance, to members of federally acknowleged nations. In this instance, I think we need to look at what that means to east coast nations, being that we are speaking of Maryland. For those who dont know what Okiemockbird and I are speaking of in refering to federally recognised, or acknowleged tribes, there are presently about six hundred native nations in the US. Of those, about three hundred are federally recognised, meaning that they have a nation to nation relationship with the US. In the 1970s, Congress threatened to reorganise the BIA, because of the slow pace at wieghing the petitions by the 300, partialy disenfrancised nations, that are not presently recognised. The BIA sped up the process to now look at about two nations petitions a year, so that all the petitions will be looked at by the passage of several hundred years - all deliberate speed. Now, in the Mid west, many of the tribes which are not recogised, either never had any form of relation with the US, as they were not involved in wars, or were termanated, a process of being declared no longer native because of forced assimilation, often, not truely reflecting the cultureal or political reality of that native nation. In the origional thriteen colonys, the treaties were not with a central American power, but with the crown and the coloney, so there are State recognised tribes. THese tribes have lived by the oldest treaties on the contental US, but often have been left out in the process of ackowlegement. The BIA will not have much on file about these tribes, however, they often interact with each other. I judge in a tribal court of such a tribe, and will ask our council who the closest nation to Maryland may be. There may actually be a native state there, and also it is worth a call to the BIA, as there are some small surprising acknowleged tribes, for example, I grew up believing as many did, that the nation Ishi came from, the Yahi, were gone, a belief fostered by Ishi himself in 1913. However, on tribal buisness, I actually found that there is a small naiton of Yahi in California. All the best Larry |
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: GUEST,Okiemockbird Date: 27 Jan 00 - 08:56 AM State "recognition" must be distinguished from a centuries-long treaty relationship with the state. The state of New Jersey recognizes an entity calling itself the "Rankokus Powhatan Tribe". These people probably sincerely believe that they have Indian ancestry, and it may even be partly true, but their claim, especially that part of their claim which traces their ancestry to the Powhatans, should be viewed with skepticism. Known descendents of the subjects of Powhatan live in the towns of Mattaponi and Pamunkey in Virginia. The State of Virginia, as I understand, has had a long-term relationship with these groups. If so, these towns' inhabitants' assertions of Indian ancestry can be accepted with reasonable confidence. New Jersey also recognizes a group calling itself the "Ramapo Indian Tribe". These folks are in fact descendants of black slaves of the New Amsterdam Dutch. Any special connection to the Tuscaroras, ancestral or cultural, should probably be viewed as slight to nonexistent, however sincerely believed in. If you look at the link above you will find a number of Eastern nations, such as the Narragansetts, the Passamaquoddies, and the Senecas. Federal recognition for the Eastern nations is available when the claim is strong, and will probably be granted eventually. Due to the importance of the special relationship between the Federal government and recognized tribes, the government has a valid interest in screening out imposters. T. |
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: katlaughing Date: 27 Jan 00 - 09:59 AM Do either of you know how it is going, or went, for the tribe that was claiming a large bit of property in downtown Bridgeport, CT? Last I heard, when we moved back to the West, in 1993, was they were going for federal recognition and talking about trying to reclaim the land. Thanks, katlaughing |
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: InOBU Date: 27 Jan 00 - 01:27 PM Hi kat: That is in fact, the nation for which I have the honor of working. At present, their apeal to a negative ruling has been granted, as the State of Ct. has lost much of the records that the state, by law must maintain. As Okiemockbird points out, the question is hugely complex and politicaly motivated, with the Federal Indian Gaming Act giving both sides incentives. In the case of the Golden Hill Paugeesukq, the Ct. nation to which kat refers, the fact that, as with many whaling tribes, they intermarried with the black community, and the fact that the US has a racialized veiw of native nations, local papers and politicians constantly play the race card in reporting on the Paugeesukqs, and do not with native nations that intermarry into the white community. We tend to loose site of the way international law looks at the racializing of national identity. In the case of the Paugeesukq, being an Iroquoianised culture, they have always practiced a form of naturualization. However, they have maintained a presence on their reservations, and governmental continuity for time in memorial. SO, to our friend looking for talent, do not overlook naitons not yet recognised, but do take her advice in looking into the way other native nations interact with that community. In the case of the Paugeesukqs, the tribe maintains a host of political conections to the rest of Native America. For example, out courts judges take part in the American Indian Court Judges Association and are active members. All the best Larry Otway |
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: GUEST,Okiemockbird Date: 27 Jan 00 - 03:44 PM A bit off topic, perhaps, but those who are interested in land cases such as the one katlaughing has asked about can find some general background information here. T. |
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: katlaughing Date: 27 Jan 00 - 03:54 PM Larry, thank you very much for the update. I followed that quite closely when we lived in CT. Tbird, that is a great link, thanks, Rog and I both will enjoy perusing the information. Susan-Marie, you should have received email with three songs with English text, about an hour or so ago, from the book mentioned. katlaughing |
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: InOBU Date: 27 Jan 00 - 07:24 PM Okiemockbird!, What a great link! I will pass it on to many. Thanks again Larry |
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: GUEST,Okiemockbird Date: 28 Jan 00 - 02:53 PM FMI (for the Mudcat's information), an interesting discourse on social dance-songs and cultural give-and-take, courtesy of the Eastern Delawares. T. |
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: GUEST,Okiemockbird Date: 28 Jan 00 - 03:58 PM And here is a picture of me! (2nd bird from the top). I have heard that the late Nora Thompson Dean was an important contributor to the preservation of the Lenape language. T. |
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: katlaughing Date: 28 Jan 00 - 06:29 PM Heya, Taskëmus/Tbird! When I lived in New England, the three Western things I missed the most were sagebrush, hot springs, and the meadowlark, the latter esp. in the spring. Now that I've been back for 6 years, I miss the cardinal AND the mockingbird, from back East! That's the first one I've heard in all of that time! Thank you very much. I am learning Lakotah from language tapes of elders, but I will also find the language info at the site you linked very interesting, too. And, hey! You're quite a handsome fellow and you sure can whistle!**BG** This has been one of the best and most interesting threads, IMO, in quite a while. Thanks, Susan-Marie, for asking. Thanks InOBU and Taskëmus, for sharing so much of interest. Here's a few links you might enjoy: Native American Languages, which is from this main page; and, you probably already know about these, but here they are just in case there is interest: < a href=www.indiancountrynews.com>Indian Country News; and, Inidgenous Environmental Network Hope I got those all correct. Thanks, again, ya'll. katlaughing
|
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: katlaughing Date: 28 Jan 00 - 06:34 PM here's the one I messed up (ah, for got to close it): Indian Country News |
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: GUEST,Okemockbird Date: 29 Jan 00 - 07:47 PM katlaughing, awwww, shucks! T. |
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: katlaughing Date: 29 Jan 00 - 07:54 PM well I never knew a bird that could blush so! |
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: GUEST,Okiemockbird Date: 30 Jan 00 - 06:47 PM In re "earth mothers", I had forgotten at the time that I wrote my post above that "[the earth] our mother, who supports our feet" is a concept that occurs in the one example I have seen of the "Invitation to Thanksgiving", a form of recitation that is used in the Handsome Lake religion of the Longhouse. The Handsome Lake religion is a re-formulation for changed conditions of older Seneca religion, so the phrase or concept might (or might not) be a part of older Seneca religious terminology. It might (or, again, it might not) be significant for establishing the history of this concept that the earth is not one of the "four beings", sun, moon, wind, and Thunderers, who are said to have brought the Creator's message to Handsome Lake (died 1815). The same difficulties apply to this Seneca motif as to the phrase "grandmother and mother, the earth" that occurs in the rituals of the Oglala (in the translation I have seen). The question of whether the phrase itself is ancient or recent must be separated from the question of how the phrase has been re-interpreted by succeeding generations, and what factors, internal and external, have influenced those re-interpretations. Beyond that, there is the question of whether, if some "mother earth" concept is traditional to one or more of the nations, the "mother" concept in (say) a Libana song is the trational concept, a nontraditional concept fortuitously using the same words, or another re-interpretation, combining old and new. Marymac90, I never thanked you for the kind words. Thanks! T. |
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: Susan-Marie Date: 08 Feb 00 - 02:50 PM And now, the final chapter of this saga - several women volunteered to sing for the service, and we looked over the songs katlaughing sent as well as some native american-derived songs in one of the song books published by Libana, a women's a capella group. Unfortunately, a couple of the women had had a bad experience with singing native american music a few years ago - something about whether they had the proper permission of the Navaho nation to sing Nightway Chant. Anyway, because of that experience, they had a strong aversion to doing any native american music whatsoever. Instead we ended up singing a couple of rounds from the Libana book, and some music written by a member of the congregation. It sounded fine, but I'm disappointed that things turned out that way. Apparently there's a lot more to native american music than I realized - I had been thinking of it as folk music, but maybe to some people it's sacred music, and improper use of it tantamont to blasphemy (and I thought copyright issues were sticky!). I wouldn't want to offend a guest speaker with music that is inappropriate or presented badly, but I'm disturbed by the fact that some in our group were afraid to sing even a simple native american round. I guess I'd better find the time to talk to local tribes and learn more about this. Thanks for your help, eveyone, especially katlaughing. |
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: InOBU Date: 08 Feb 00 - 03:52 PM That is the best kind of controversy, when it leads to new friends and a broader understanding among neighbors. It is very good to hear that you are seaking out local Native Nations, and I know it will be a rewarding experience. All the best Larry |
|
Subject: RE: REQ: Native Amer Songs From: katlaughing Date: 08 Feb 00 - 04:12 PM Oh, Susan, that is right, I am sorry you were disappointed, but a lot of it is VERY sacred, although it has become accepted, among the Natives I know, that some is available on tape and to be shared. You will know more by getting acquainted as Larry says. Try listening to the AIROS link I put it (American Indian Radio on Satellite). They had a fascinating discussion the other day at noon rocky mtn time, on a program called Native Calling. They have special shows of that one called the Wellness Edition. That day, they had a shaman, Paul Ortega, who is also a recording artist on, as well as an elder from the Nez Perce, first name Horace, who speaks all over the world on his culture. The subject that day was Drums, rattles and flute and how they heal physically and spiritually. It was a wonderful program. There was much discussion on the fact that women do not drum in some tribes, while others welcome them, esp. if their numbers are small. There was also discussion and phone-ins on healing people had received and the training of the medicine person, as well as drummakers. I don't know if that show is archived, yet or not, but it was well worth a listen. The woman who hosts it is in Alaska and had worked closely with the Native American leader who just died in the Alaskan Airlines plane wreck. She was talking about him and got lost in tears of sorrow, when Horace stepped in with such grace and kindness to talk about the Seven Drum ceremony for those who've passed on. My heart was full of emotions and gratitude for the sharing and compassion. I have tears in my eyes right now, thinking about it. Thanks for letting us know how it was. Did you get a chance to talk with the speaker at all about any of it? katlaughing
|
| Share Thread: |