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BS: American speech
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: Lighter Date: 21 Sep 26 - 09:11 AM Not to disagree with my friend Gibb, but the U.S. reality is more complicated. The presumed distinction among the public is usually North vs. South, but that was/is highly simplified. "General American" is used for people who, for various reasons, do not have obviously identifiable regional accents - identifiable by he average person, that is. Here's a map by counties, though the "real" boundaries are far more blurry than they look here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Infographics/comments/q0zfqa/us_dialects_map/#lightbox The accents Americans can easily detect are probably (these are broad descriptions clumped together from local variants) New England, Boston, Northern, Upper Southern/Appalachian, Gulf Southern, and (not always) California, which often seems to be "General American." The "African-American" accent is historically rooted in the Gulf South but has always hadnumerous differences and internal variations. And not all Black people have it. Those that do are not restricted to any one region. Like "Gulf South" in general, it seems to be fading away. Every ethnic group has its own variations. For real extremes, think of John F. Kennedy, Dolly Parton, Strom Thurmond, and possibly Billie Eilish and GloRilla. And let's not get started on Canada. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: Lighter Date: 21 Sep 26 - 09:49 AM I was saying "dayda" long before Star Trek. But I also say "dadda" (not "dahda"; it depends on the mood of the moment). |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: r.padgett Date: 21 Sep 26 - 01:41 PM Day t'a and Dah t' a Ray |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: Backwoodsman Date: 21 Sep 26 - 02:27 PM It’s ’day-ta’ here in the Backwoods. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: r.padgett Date: 22 Sep 26 - 02:09 AM Me too in South Yorkshire Ray |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: Helen Date: 22 Sep 26 - 06:42 PM BWM, I think you, me and your Missus might need to hide in a doomsday bunker if we keep making fun of the Kiwi accent. LOL I dread to think of how she describes our Aussie accent, and BTW "Aussie" for some unknown, completely mysterious reason is pronounced "Ozz'ee" and not "Oss'ee". Go figger! In the last year or so Aussies were called out by a well-respected Maori - possibly Jay Laga'aia - who told us that for a very, very long time we have been mispronouncing the name of the First Nations people in NZ. All my life I have heard it pronounced as "Mow'ree" with the sound of "how" and "now". We have now been told that it is a double vowel sound which is explained in this video. The pronunciation could be shown as "Mah'o-ree" with the "o" sound pronounced like "go". How to pronounce "Maori / Maori" How many ways can the "o" sound be pronounced? Examples: bow of ribbon, bow of a ship, often, could, sound, double.... No wonder people struggle to learn to read, especially if they were not taught how to sound out the words or to realise the multitude of different spellings for different sounds. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: JennieG Date: 22 Sep 26 - 08:08 PM Helen - shouldn't that be 'Kiwi eccent'? I'm allowed to poke fun because I am 1/4 Kiwi, my maternal grandmother was born in NZ. All white, though - English and Irish ancestry, she was - no Maori. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: Donuel Date: 22 Sep 26 - 08:16 PM There are words used in English that have roots in the ancient Proto-Indo-European language. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: Helen Date: 22 Sep 26 - 11:06 PM Good point, JennieG, although maybe 'Kiwi ecc-nt' where the '-' equals a very short, almost non-existent version of 'uh'. Ooh, I'm straying into dangerous territory now! 8-( |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: r.padgett Date: 23 Sep 26 - 07:08 AM Of course languages do tend to pronounce the vowel sounds slightly differently in normal course in England Can be "fun" to change the vowel sounds like e to a and note the accent Ray |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: Donuel Date: 23 Sep 26 - 11:41 AM It seems to me that the UK has more regional accents than America. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: r.padgett Date: 23 Sep 26 - 12:25 PM UK has had over time many influences from immigrants and a lot have either brought their own accents from their English speaking countries of birth and or have adopted the accents from birth in England Scottish, Gaelic, Welsh, Irish, French from way back, and Old English from Anglo Saxon times ~ English seems in England is a rich language My Yorkshire accent from my parents is very pronounced and there is a Lancashire accent probably more pronounced ~ see folky Sid Calderbank for example Greater Manchester had a fair few immigrants from Ireland due to potato famine and there is evidence of Irish accents still there Royston near Barnsley had miners walk 100 miles from "the Black Country" to take up work ~ dialect words and accents are still there from many years ago Ray |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: Helen Date: 23 Sep 26 - 02:49 PM Ray, you said, "Scottish, Gaelic, Welsh, Irish, French from way back, and Old English from Anglo Saxon times ~ English seems in England is a rich language" I referred to a book by Owen Barfield in my post on 23 Aug 26 at 07:24 PM. The link I gave is for an online access to the complete book. Each chapter is about a different influence on the English language in the British Isles according to historical events which brought new cultures into the lands. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: r.padgett Date: 24 Sep 26 - 02:15 AM Thanks Helen ~ would that my eye sight and age could extend to book reading anymore I have checked your Aug 23rd video for a couple of minutes and seen the extent of English importance for the likes of ATC world wide Well done the chap who wrote the book! Ray |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: Helen Date: 24 Sep 26 - 02:41 AM Thanks Ray. I downloaded the Owen Barfield book from the book site and I think you could enlarge the font or enlarge the screen to possibly be able to read it more easily. I chose the "other formats & older devices" option and selected plain text. It is an excellent book, fairly short, and it really opened up my awareness of the multiple sources of the English language. The most interesting aspect for me is the insight into the lifestyles and cultures of the different societies contributing to our language. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: r.padgett Date: 25 Sep 26 - 02:22 AM Yes the commonality of a shared language that has taken many years to evolve must have aided communication throughout the World Spanish and the Chinese languages have also been important Ray |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 25 Sep 26 - 08:40 PM One can see the effects of environment and immigration in the Scouse accent: it used to be said that it was one-third Irish, one-third Welsh, and one-third catarrh. This cultural artefact may or may not have been ruined by the Clean-Air Acts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: Paul Burke Date: 26 Sep 26 - 04:18 PM "There are words used in English that have roots in the ancient Proto-Indo-European language. " said Donuel. That's a bit like saying to a woman about to have her first baby, "You'll be fine - you come from a long line of women who've had babies." Or to put it another way, every language that's Indo-European has words that have PIE roots. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: Lighter Date: 26 Sep 26 - 05:10 PM Accents change continually but very slowly. It was often believed in the 1930s that owing to the influence of radio and movies, most U.S. accents would be homogenized into a kind of "general American" within a generation or two. But nearly a century later, we just need to look at the map I linked to above to see how wrong the prediction was. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: r.padgett Date: 27 Sep 26 - 02:28 AM Long live regional accents ~ I think accents of actors in films and certainly in folk song are sought after ~ I still have my South Yorkshire accent if needed ~ when meeting old friends there is still a tendency to revert back!! lol Ray |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: The Sandman Date: 30 Sep 26 - 03:30 PM Greenhorn is an inexperienced or naive person, and the term comes from combining "green" (meaning fresh, raw, or immature) with "horn" (referring to the soft, developing horns of a young animal) would it be similiar to johhny come lately, or wet behind the ears |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: r.padgett Date: 01 Oct 26 - 01:41 AM Similar but not the same and those terms have their own specific place depending on circumstances and occasions Johnny come lately is perhaps where some newcomer comes in and takes over or makes comments that are frowned upon Greenhorn has agricultural connections maybe Wet between the ears is simply one with little experience All without dictionary referral so correct if need be Ray |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 02 Oct 26 - 10:33 AM > Wet between the ears I always thought it was "wet behind the ears", suggestive (come to think) of a newborn child. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: Lighter Date: 02 Oct 26 - 11:41 AM "Behind" is correct. Unless you're talking about a brain. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: The Sandman Date: 04 Oct 26 - 04:48 PM In standard American slang, to "welch" (or "welsh") on a bet or a promise means to back out, break an agreement, or refuse to pay what you owe |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: meself Date: 05 Oct 26 - 12:32 AM That's one I haven't heard for ages here in Canada, but I remember hearing it occasionally when I was a kid. I think its meaning would still be recognized, though. I don't know if anyone thought of it as an 'ethnic slur', which I assume it was, originally, anyway. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: Helen Date: 05 Oct 26 - 02:52 AM Aussie pronunciations which annoy me: "nature" is pronounced nay'cha, "feature" is fea'cha, "teacher" is tea'cha, etc etc. I mean, I know that even though "teacher" is spelled that way and we don't usually pronounce it as tea'cherr, the cha sound is usually emphasised and sounds almost like chaaah. It goes back to another post I made earlier in this discussion, Prime Mi'nis-staar' (emphasis on first AND third syllable and the "staar" part sounds more like an emphasised call-out). I heard another word spoken by a TV journalist today but I can't remember what it was. I just remember that the sound was replaced by a "dg" or "j" sound despite the spelling. (It will come to me as soon as I hit the Submit button, I expect.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: Helen Date: 05 Oct 26 - 04:31 AM I just remembered the other word: "procedure", pronounced pro-see'dgah or pro-cee'jah. Yes, I know how quirky English spelling is and how many ways there are to pronounce certain combinations of letters, but it is the "ah" sound which stands out for me. And yes, I do use these Aussie pronunciations but I am fairly sure that I don't announce the "ah" sounds with so much emphasis, as if I have just hit my thumb with a hammer. LOL Thank the gods none of you can record my Aussie accent because you would laugh yourselves silly, I suspect. Pot-kettle-black, and all that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: r.padgett Date: 05 Oct 26 - 06:33 AM We are all different and speech is variable ~ depends what you grew up with thank god for that Helen Ray |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 05 Oct 26 - 09:42 AM > procedure Just tried it out myself, and verified that Herself does it too: it does sound like there's a J in the middle, much to our surprise. Curious. Perhaps we should get Peter Trudgill† on the case. † Etymologist in Residence at the New |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: Helen Date: 05 Oct 26 - 02:05 PM The "j" or "dg" sound is fairly normal, I think. It would be odd - and difficult - to pronounce it as it is spelled. The part which bugs me is when I hear it is the punk-rock sounding "aah!" at the end. Think Shayne MacGowan singing God Save the Queen, as an example, when he was singing/yelling at his best to a crowd of thousands. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: r.padgett Date: 06 Oct 26 - 01:37 AM Helen yes dg is in my name of course and I help pronunciation by saying use j this is not quite right and sounds more Asian, jet rather than jit er um Ray |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: Backwoodsman Date: 06 Oct 26 - 03:12 AM Ray, I pronounce your name ‘Pad-jet’, with the ‘d’ sound followed by a soft ‘g’. I think that’s the ‘correct’ pronunciation? |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: Helen Date: 06 Oct 26 - 04:39 AM Ray, I didn't get what you meant because it's "obvious" to me that "dg" is pronounced like "j" but then I realised that you might sometimes have your surname pronounced with the hard "g" like "Pad'get", "go", "get" etc. It's kind of funny that words with a "d" followed by a "u" are pronounced with the "j" sound, e.g. procedure, education, endure, etc. Question: will this interesting thread still be going strong in another 30 years of the history of Mudcat? The more we discuss the complexities of the English language, the more interesting and intriguing it becomes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: r.padgett Date: 06 Oct 26 - 06:40 AM "Ray, I pronounce your name ‘Pad-jet’, with the ‘d’ sound followed by a soft ‘g’. I think that’s the ‘correct’ pronunciation?" Yes spot on BWM Ray |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: Backwoodsman Date: 06 Oct 26 - 07:42 AM Thought so! Thanks Ray. Incidentally, do you have a relative in South Lincolnshire? |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: Lighter Date: 06 Oct 26 - 10:08 AM But is it pa'-dget or padg-ett'? |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: Backwoodsman Date: 06 Oct 26 - 11:29 AM Lighter, It’s ’Pad-gett’ with a soft ‘g’. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: Lighter Date: 06 Oct 26 - 01:05 PM Stress on which syllable? That was my question. Actress Debra Paget was padg'-it. Newscaster Erin Burnett is bur-nett' . (Since "dg" represents a single sound, I don't separate the letters.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: Backwoodsman Date: 06 Oct 26 - 01:58 PM Aaahh! Stress on ‘Pad’, so ‘PAD-gett’. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: Helen Date: 06 Oct 26 - 03:32 PM Yes, sorry guys! I should have explained the use of an apostrophe, i.e. the ' mark as an indication of stressing that syllable. "I should have explai'ned the use of an apo'strophe, i.e. the ' mark as an indica'tion of stre'ssing that sy'llable." LOL Funny: I was just thinking about how it rained a bit this morning and my Hubby is going out to a place where he will have to walk through some muddy patches. The phrase "trudge through the sludge" popped into my head, and then the word "judge" popped in as well. The judge trudged through the sludge. That's interesting for a couple of reasons. the "j" in "judge" has the same sound as the "dg", and also the "g" in "through" is silent. I keep thinking how difficult it would be for non-native English speakers to pick up the language. There is such a varied history of origins of different words, usually resulting in a confusing array of ways to pronounce what at first glance would appear to be similar sounds. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: r.padgett Date: 07 Oct 26 - 01:40 AM Elizabeth Padgett nee Minnett big wheel at Spalding folk club ~ originally from Cudworth married Keith Padgett (no relation) she ended up there Rest is secret Lots of Padgetts about and umpteen different spellings Ray |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: The Sandman Date: 07 Oct 26 - 02:17 AM “The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don’t just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.” quote. the reason for the change in the language was the invasion of England by various other nations who, then, put their influence on the language, examples.... vikings normans etc what is incorrect in stilly rivers quote, is that English has not actively pursued other languages, the english language has changed because of outside influences upon it. examples vikings and normans invasions and thus foreign words entering and influencing the language. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: Backwoodsman Date: 07 Oct 26 - 02:17 AM Know her well, Ray, played there a number of times. Her partner built me a nice tenor guitar. I’d wondered if there was a connection - Padgett isn’t a common name here in the Backwoods. Small world, eh? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: The Sandman Date: 07 Oct 26 - 02:57 AM language is passive , it needs people to change it.the english language was changed by people, it did not do it on its own, some of those changes were viking and norman influence. The surname of the Yorkshire and England cricketer Doug Padgett (Douglas Ernest Vernon Padgett) is commonly pronounced as PAJ-it (rhyming with gadget or badge-it, with the stress on the first syllable) |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: The Sandman Date: 07 Oct 26 - 03:32 AM I keep thinking how difficult it would be for non-native English speakers to pick up the language.quote exactly, look at, cough, slough, dough, all pronounced differently |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: r.padgett Date: 07 Oct 26 - 06:55 AM Liz Padgett know me from early days BWM and Martin too Ray |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: Helen Date: 07 Oct 26 - 11:44 AM Cough, slough, dough, through, thought - how confusing is that? LOL |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 07 Oct 26 - 12:05 PM .... Then who or what invaded England to cause the Great Vowel Shift? The Wikipedia page gives details of the what, but appears silent on the why. Curious minds, an' all that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American speech From: Monique Date: 07 Oct 26 - 12:34 PM "...Linguists still don’t agree on all of those details. They also aren’t even sure why it happened in the first place." from "The History of English Podcast" The Great Vowel Shift- part 1 (a podcast well worth listening from the very beginning -191 episodes so far). |
