How to spoil a song...

Subject: How to spoil a song...
From: Johnny J
Date: 23 Aug 26 - 04:45 PM

I was reading the "Both Sides Now" thread with interest.

Actually, any legal or ethical arguments aside, I didn't see too much wrong with the rewording of the song. It stands well enough on its own and doesn't really detract from the original.
Of course, it isn't a parody as such but a "rewrite" or a "contrafactum" ...I had never heard that word before either but I didn't take Latin. ;-))

Anyway, I'm generally not too keen on parodies although some can be very clever. However, many are also very trite and listening to the original song never seems quite the same again.
I can be guilty of changing lyrics myself, of course,but usually not with a song I actually like.
For instance, Billy Conolly's "Divorce" was very funny and it didn't really matter as the lyrics of the original song were pretty naff anyway.

There's also the updated versions where just one line has been changed or added and this invariably spoils the song for me.
e.g. "Hey baby" original by Bruce Channel with the ridiculous "Oooh, Aah"   or "Living next door to Alice" by Smokie and the "WTF is Alice?" line.
Such things, of course, appeal to hen parties and line dancers etc but not for me.

A more folky example is "The Wild Rover". The song itself is over sung already, of course, but the "Right up your kilt" line was the final straw for me! ;-(

Anyway, for a bit of fun, what has spoiled a song for you? Aside from a bad parody, irritating or offensive lyric additions, we could also consider the circumstances in which it is sung and whether it has become "cliched". Another pet hate is when a song becomes over popular for whatever reason. Often because it has been used in a film score or similar. e.g. "Hey Jimmy, Gonna play us that tune frae Deliverance" etc.

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: Sol
Date: 23 Aug 26 - 09:05 PM

Whilst the audience additives (mentioned above) provides the hoi polloi with a moment of joyous response, the original song is forever destroyed and, as a result, transferred to the "Hokey Cokey" drawer.
Sad but true.

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Aug 26 - 03:25 AM

I haven't heard the "up your kilt" line in "The Wild Rover" for years - long enough that I'd forgotten it - and don't miss it a bit.

I haven't heard Hamish Imlach's dimwitted grunts in "The Cod Liver Oil and the Orange Juice" for years either but the song itself has almost vanished. (Did Imlach ever do any song without defacing it with his smug drunken ego?)

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Aug 26 - 03:51 AM

i heard the wildrover with the up the kilt only last week unfortunately a rather unattractive lady who was langers tried to lift up her skirt on that phrase

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: Nick Dow
Date: 24 Aug 26 - 04:06 AM

Wild Rover has a long and distinguished history, just like Whiskey in the Jar.
I think the tradition is tough enough to survive the parodies. Must admit, they do get up your funnel, though. By the way the term Hoi Polloy has an equally interesting background.

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 24 Aug 26 - 04:14 AM

I go to a an instrumental session which closes the night with the song "Rolling Home". It always seemed the perfect way of finishing, to me. Recently, after the line "So pass the bottle round and let the toasts go free", one or two have taken to shouting out "FREE TOAST" which irks me somewhat. The song is strong enough to survive but I wish they wouldn't do it.

DC

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Aug 26 - 04:26 AM

yes, hoi polloi has greek origin, thank you, Nick.

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: GerryM
Date: 24 Aug 26 - 08:05 AM

"...a rather unattractive lady who was langers...." What does "langers" mean?

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 24 Aug 26 - 08:55 AM

> What does "langers" mean?

More inebriated than somewhat, claimeth Wiktionary ("originally and mainly restricted to County Cork"). I had to look it up too.

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: Johnny J
Date: 24 Aug 26 - 05:53 PM

I remember there used to be a Danish band called "Murphy's Langers" in the early eighties.

In those days, there were more outfits playing Irish and Scottish music than their own traditional variety. Same in most Scandinavian countries and in Europe generally.

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Aug 26 - 01:52 AM

langer is also a derogatory term for peoplE from Cork City

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Aug 26 - 01:57 AM

This particular spoiler was a Jackeen[ Dubliner], its possible to be a jackeen who is langers, that is a dubliner who is fluted.. very drunk

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: Acorn4
Date: 25 Aug 26 - 04:46 AM

On the other hand would we want to be without Les Barker's output.

"The January June" had the approval of the subject herself.

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 26 - 09:01 AM

you can spoil a song by yammering on about it and explaniing it in detail in advance and at length.
a few words about it & a credit to the writer if it isn't trad is fine, but the SONG should tell the story.
If I'm ever tempted to break my own rule, I often find that the first line has entirely left my head, so try not to 'yammer on'!!

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: GUEST,Tom Patterson
Date: 25 Aug 26 - 11:04 AM

How right you are, Guest, about the yammering on - I have to admit to being guilty of that on more than one occasion. I think not being ready to sing a song when it's your turn at a singaround also often spoils a song.It seems to happen frequently at such events.

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: meself
Date: 25 Aug 26 - 11:09 AM

For me, any song is ruined when it's one I've been singing for years, and then some (relatively) famous entity records a different version (and it's always a different version), which requires me to start singing the other version, fight with audiences and/or other singers and musicians, or just stop singing it in public ... a la House of the Rising Sun and Dave Van Ronk, Dylan, The Animals, et al.

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 26 - 02:09 PM

The Wellerman.

First off, it's not a shanty, it was never used as a work song. Supposedly written by a young whaler, and sung in the fo'csle when off duty. It's a personal dislike of every song about the sea being termed a shanty, there's d difference.

It's a great song, I've sung it myself, but, like Wild Rover, it's been over exposed and I no longer sing it because of that.

The other one that springs to mind is Stairway to Heaven. Zepplin have never been surpassed in cover versions, there've been so many, even rolf bloody harris covered it, and they've all failed miserably.

And last off, And the Band Played Waltzing Matilda. Eric Bogle wrote it, and there's been many covers, that bloke harris amongst them, but the really stand out cover for me is by the Pogues, which I think is better than the original.

I avoid listening to cover bands, especially ones covering 70's music. I was lucky enough to have seen most of the 70's bands that are generally covered. The only one I missed out on was Queen.

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: Acorn4
Date: 25 Aug 26 - 02:18 PM

Jimmy McCarthy did "Ride On" in just over 4 minutes including a guitar break. Christy Moore did it in 3. Bob Dylan sung "Knocking on Heaven's Door" in 2 mins 32 seconds.

It's rare to hear a version of either in under 10 minutes.

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Aug 26 - 02:59 PM

You cant damage a song by singing it, the only way you can damage the song is by not singing it[Martin Carthy].
the important point is not who is singing the song, but how the song is being sung[Dick Miles].

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: GUEST,MG
Date: 25 Aug 26 - 03:16 PM

Changing the gender of the traditional or composed song from male to female or back again.

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Aug 26 - 04:02 PM

not necessarily, how would it ruin this oneSONG OF THE SWIFT
(Dick Miles)

Flying high but never landing
Flighted shaft of love entrancing
Through the clouds so lightly dancing
Chorus do si do and then farewell
repeat twice
2
I watched you circling higher
calling follow me for ever
Touching souls we soared together
Chorus
3 Flying for the sun were seeking
cross the waves so swiftly fleeting
never grounding loves fond feelings
Chorus
4 From the cliff face now the leaving
chasing sunbeams all the evening
joined in love our fusion weaving
Chorus
Flying high you stared soaring
to the ground i kept on falling
helpless till she heard the calling
chorus
High unto the cliff face leaving
Quivering heart so sadly weeping
gentle hands that kindly freed me
chorus
copyright Dick Miles

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: GUEST,Jim Yates
Date: 25 Aug 26 - 04:46 PM

I loved Marvin Gaye's version of Heard It Through The Grape Vine. It was ruined for me by the singing raisons in the California Raisin Advisory Board's commercial. I have trouble now hearing the song without thinking about dancing raisins.

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: GerryM
Date: 25 Aug 26 - 06:29 PM

"Jimmy McCarthy did "Ride On" in just over 4 minutes including a guitar break." Mary Coughlan stretched it out to 10 minutes by explaining, during an instrumental interlude before the last verse, that the song wasn't about horses, it was about Ireland's fight to be free of England, and then seguing somehow into a diatribe aimed at Israel, which included repeated shouts of "Eff the IDF! Eff Trump!"

[No, she didn't say "eff", but I'd rather not type here the word she did say.]

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: GerryM
Date: 25 Aug 26 - 06:34 PM

"The other one that springs to mind is Stairway to Heaven. Zepplin have never been surpassed in cover versions, there've been so many, even rolf bloody harris covered it, and they've all failed miserably."

I watched Rolf Harris do Stairway on an Andrew Denton TV show, and I thought it was hilarious. And, as it was meant to be hilarious, I'd mark it a success, not a failure.

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 26 Aug 26 - 07:39 PM

Some of these things are perhaps funny the first time you hear them, such as the “Free Toast” in “Rolling Home”, or “The sharks they played melodeons” in “Pleasant and Delightful”, or “Who’s he?” in “Flower of Scotland”, but become less so on relentless repetition.

For me, some songs have been spoiled by the way they are delivered, such as those choppy thrashy guitar rhythms that break up the natural flow of words in some songs so that they no longer make any sense.
Or turning a lovely lyrical song in 3/4 timing into a 4/4 March (Rose of Allendale, Caledonia). Or conversely, imposing a swingy 6/8 on to what was originally a straight 4/4 (You’ll Never Walk Alone, Can’t Help Falling in Love)

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 27 Aug 26 - 07:05 AM

Ah, Jack Campin, must be nice to feel so superior to Hamish Imlach.

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: Johnny J
Date: 27 Aug 26 - 07:21 AM

Well,yes.

I always had a great deal of respect for Hamish Imlach and he has performed a wide variety of material much of which is in a quite serious vein. Even his "funny songs" often had a more serious edge too.

He also did a lot to encourage new upcoming performers and raise awareness of less well known songs. e..g "Sonny's Dream".
Mary Black owes a lot to Hamish too as she received many of her first UK bookings thanks to his recommendations.

Also, "Cod liver oil and the orange juice " is still going strong thanks to Findlay Napier.

His curry night at Tønder was legendary too.

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 26 - 04:01 PM

Tattie Bogle said, "Some of these things are perhaps funny the first time you hear them, such as the “Free Toast” in “Rolling Home”, or “The sharks they played melodeons” in “Pleasant and Delightful”, or “Who’s he?” in “Flower of Scotland”, but become less so on relentless repetition."
*******************************************************************

I always enjoyed Grit Laskin's parody on Pleasant & Delightful.
Cozmic & Freaky - Grit Laskin

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: BrooklynJay
Date: 28 Aug 26 - 01:47 AM

Over the past several years, one thing I've seen at sessions (both in-person and online) that can destroy a song is when the singer insists on repeatedly interrupting their singing by giving several minutes of spoken, explanatory notes after nearly every verse while playing a vamp in the background.

That ends it for me, right then and there.

I've seen a number of people do it.


Jay

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 28 Aug 26 - 10:35 AM

That's called "inlining your footnotes" in certain circles, Jay.

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 28 Aug 26 - 10:44 AM

When an unaccompanied singer is suddenly joined by a guitarist who has worked out what key the song is in.
Even worse when they're a quarter tone wrong.

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: GUEST,M Siirdewaye
Date: 28 Aug 26 - 11:36 AM

What spoils songs for me is when they are sandwiched among too many songs that sound similar but might be of inferior quality. It trains the ear to tune out somewhat and miss the good. Sort of like what algorithm generated playlists do to music, or too much of the same at a festival.

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: Sol
Date: 28 Aug 26 - 02:32 PM

Re FreddyHeadey's post (two above).

My three golden rules when accompanying a singer at a session.

1) Always play below the voice, in terms of volume.
2) Play any riffs or twiddly bits in the spaces, i.e. don't compete with the lyrics.
3) Don't join in until the key is known and a reasonable idea of the chord structure is established.

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 28 Aug 26 - 07:30 PM

That’s assuming you have been asked to accompany - maybe that should be rule 1?
A friend who plays a number of stringed instruments sometimes likes to sing unaccompanied: so she’s sitting there surrounded by mandolin, guitar and mandola, singing a cappella when someone else in the room appoints themself accompanist. She stops singing, and says, “I’ve I’d wanted to be accompanied, I’d have used one of these”, pointing to said instruments.

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 26 - 08:38 PM

Dick's post of 25 August is spot on (and I seldom agree with him!)

But this: "A more folky example is "The Wild Rover". The song itself is over sung already, of course, but the "Right up your kilt" line was the final straw for me! ;-( "

...is NOT spot on. My band will be singing this at our Memory Café meeting next Friday. The chorus will be lustily sung by all present. Tables will be joyously banged after no, nay, never, and a lot of very elderly people, most with memory loss, will go home happy. "Over sung?" Sez who!

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: Johnny J
Date: 29 Aug 26 - 03:19 AM

Sez me but it I'm not alone.

There is, of course, a time and place for such songs and they are often appreciated by elderly people in care homes and day centres. When I've taken part in various set ups entertaining in such situations, we quite often revert to the tried and tested old songs as we know they will go down well and usually bring back lots of memories. There are better "old songs", of course, but..Yes..why not The Wild Rover in that situation?

However, I wouldn't be singing it to please a bunch of drunk football supporters or whatever in a noisy pub.

As for Dick's comments on the 25th.
Was it this one?

"the important point is not who is singing the song, but how the song is being sung[Dick Miles]"

From what I can read, my interpretation of "how the song is being sung" would include flippant additions such as "Right up your kilt" which I don't think would be appropriate in a care home either.

Actually, "the Wild Rover" itself can be nice enough sang in a more laid back style although not everyone will agree. I also dislike it when slower and more easy paced songs are speeded up for effect or with the intent to make them them sound more raucous.

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Aug 26 - 03:32 AM

it is not just how the song is being sung ,but also the situation it is being sung in, in relation to the people present.
for example it is not appropriate to sing the song "when this old hat was new the way it was sung in the navy, eg ... taking off ones clothes" whilst singing, in an old people care home, or even a folk club. and yes it has been done that way in a folk club, no names no pack drill

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 30 Aug 26 - 12:24 PM

Remembering when someone sang "Bloody well Boozing" in an old folks home during our festival: talk about misjudging the reaction to what some people find a funny song. Eyebrows shot up to the ceiling, sharp intakes of breath and big frowns and disapproving looks all round at the oft-repeated "Bloodies"!

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: Paul Burke
Date: 02 Sep 26 - 06:59 AM

"Anyway, I'm generally not too keen on parodies... listening to the original song never seems quite the same again." said JohnnyJ.

Sometimes that's a good thing perhaps. I'm hoping that the Kippers version of Dido, Bendigo meant that's the last we heard of that, forever.

Not to mention Blooming Heather.

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Sep 26 - 08:08 AM

yes, the kippers were good stage performers, theirbtiming was impeccable but sometimes their parodies were predictable.
personally, i think they harmed tradtional song., and are best forgotten, and generally speaking people who do their parodies produce a second rate effort compared to the original perfomance
Without the songs having been collected they would have nothing to send up.
I wonder what Cecil Sharp would have thought?

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: Acorn4
Date: 06 Sep 26 - 04:08 AM

A couple of friends of ours, husband and wife, were doing a version of Richard Thompson's "Dimming of the Day" - in the last verse, Steve (I'll give him his real name) let out an audible fart, made worse by the fact that there was a visible raising of one bum cheek from the stool he was sitting on.

That song will never be the same again.

Subject: RE: How to spoil a song...
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 Sep 26 - 08:28 AM

Cecil Sharp would have "collected" the Kippers' songs, tidied them up and made them fit for singing by spinster schoolteachers, added a tinkly parlour- piano arrangement, and copyrighted the lot in his own name.