Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song

Subject: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: olddude
Date: 03 Sep 26 - 01:07 AM

https://youtu.be/08lVuhv_Va8?is=hj4bCGSR71wvL1gu

One of the best singer songwriters ever in my opinion

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 03 Sep 26 - 03:55 AM

The Ballad of Spiro Agnew (Hope I’ve spelt it correctly.)

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 03 Sep 26 - 05:21 AM

Many of Tom Paxton's songs are timeless. But he has also written a large number of topical songs that he calls his "short shelf-life songs".

And his collection isn't complete yet! He continues to write songs in the company of Cathy Fink. You can find their latest composition on youtube;

DOLLY’S SONG By Cathy Fink & Tom Paxton, 8/26/26

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 03 Sep 26 - 06:04 AM

As best I can tell, there are five Paxton songs that have gone (very faintly) into tradition: the "Big Four" of "The Last Thing on My Mind," "Ramblin' Boy," "I Can't Help But Wonder Where I'm Bound," and "The Marvelous Toy," plus "Going to the Zoo."

Of these, "The Last Thing on My Mind" is believed to have been the most-recorded, but as best I can tell, "Can't Help But Wonder" seems to have traveled the most -- that is, had more passing from person to person without recordings influencing the transmission. It definitely seems to have evolved the most.

("Can't Help But Wonder" is also the only one that I sing, but that may be a psychological similarity thing; I'm autistic, and Paxton is diagnosed with attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder, which, given his special skills, makes me wonder if he isn't autistic also. In any case, ADHD and autism are "next door" diagnoses with high diagnostic and genetic overlap.)

My father has always liked "My Lady's a Wild Flying Dove," which I agree is a beautiful metaphor.

I find that "Angeline Is Always Friday" pops into my head at odd times, probably because of the tune.

Most of Paxton's topical songs are pretty out-of-date these days, but having watched rose-breasted grosbeaks go functionally extinct in my area, and butterfly populations drop by something like 80%, "Whose Garden Was This" may be more relevant today than it was half a century ago.

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: GerryM
Date: 03 Sep 26 - 07:29 AM

Some of the topical songs still have something to tell us – What Did You Learn in School, We Didn't Know, I Believe I Do.

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: gillymor
Date: 03 Sep 26 - 08:23 AM

It's got to be Rambling Boy for me, still a lot of fun to play and with a great chorus for sing arounds.

I was obsessed with learning Mississippi John Hurt songs back in the '70's and when I heard Paxton's Did You Hear John Hurt off a Doc Watson LP (that's probably son Merle playing those MJH licks) I was over the moon.

Lately I've been listening to an LP called Bluegrass Sings Paxton and it yielded this gem, Tom singing I Can't Help But Wonder (Where I'm Bound) with the band Della Mae.

I gotta think that Last Thing On My Mind is his magnum opus.

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 03 Sep 26 - 08:29 AM

In response to gillymor (not criticism, just amplification): you'll note that you list three of Paxton's Big Four -- the three adult ones, "Last Thing on My Mind," "Can't Help But Wonder," "Ramblin' Boy."

"Can't Help But Wonder" seems to have been the one that bluegrass people have latched onto -- I saw at least one bluegrass recording that called it traditional. Which was apparently true; they learned it from oral tradition, with (I think I recall) some mistakes. As I said above, it has wandered the most from the original. "Last Thing on My Mind" seems hardly ever to change, except that some people do three verses and some do four.

Paxton's daughter once heard a bunch of people in England (I think it was) insisting that "Last Thing on My Mind" was traditional. She kept telling them "My dad wrote that!" They didn't want to believe her. :-)

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: gillymor
Date: 03 Sep 26 - 09:47 AM

Leaving London is another one that Bluegrassers seem to have have taken to. I first heard this performed by Doc Watson who probably did as much as anyone to get Paxton's songs out there.
Leaving London

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: GUEST,Joe in MN
Date: 03 Sep 26 - 06:33 PM

Three Paxton covers I like a lot:

Annie's Going to Sing her Song - Bob Dylan
Forest Lawn - John Denver
Jimmy Newman - John Denver (he covered Paxton a lot)

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 03 Sep 26 - 07:47 PM

Yes, “Last Thing on my Mind” has to be top of the list for me, closely followed by “Rambling Boy” and “Leaving London”.
I think the story about “Last Thing on my Mind” and his daughter actually happened in St Andrews, Scotland, and the doubting person eventually conceded, “Well, he might have written it” after her insistence that he had!
Also liked “Every Time” but not so much the Fureys cover of it.
Must confess that after watching a couple of TV programmes about 9/11 this week, “The Bravest” is running through my head.

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 03 Sep 26 - 08:23 PM

Tattie Bogle wrote I think the story about “Last Thing on my Mind” and his daughter actually happened in St Andrews, Scotland, and the doubting person eventually conceded, “Well, he might have written it” after her insistence that he had!

That's my recollection also (well, I didn't remember the place), but that doesn't change the fact that they didn't want to believe the song was composed. Which I find a little odd, because the meter (and even the subject) are not at all traditional. But, of course, not many people spend their time thinking about the meters of folk song.

As for John Denver covering Paxton a lot, remember that Denver got his start in the Mitchell Trio (the successor to the Chad Mitchell Trio), and the Mitchell Trio in both incarnations was very closely tied to Paxton -- who, indeed, almost got a job in the group before they concluded that his voice just wasn't a good mix with Chad Mitchell's and Mike Kobluk's.

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: GUEST,chinmusic
Date: 04 Sep 26 - 01:07 PM

Time To Spare

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 26 - 03:41 PM

'Peace' deserves a mention, I think. my favourite among his albums still is 'Politics', with only one song I can't really stand ('Bunny Wunny'). They're all so well crafted - and of course, I'm old enough to remembeer what they are about ...

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: GUEST,Susanne (skw)
Date: 04 Sep 26 - 03:44 PM

Sorry, that guest was me!

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 05 Sep 26 - 06:06 PM

I followed her into the west.

Roll your leg over mine Willy my Weaver O

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 26 - 06:41 PM

Rambling boy is a great tune and i like the sentiments of the words however he has written a number of good songs

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 05 Sep 26 - 09:32 PM

here is a nice version of i followed her into the west.
the picture looks like my street in st. john's nfld -- gower street to be exact.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKK83ZUOlxo

it sure sounds like gordon quinton playing.

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 06 Sep 26 - 02:19 AM

From: Robert B. Waltz Date: 03 Sep 26 - 06:04 AM As best I can tell, there are five Paxton songs that have gone (very faintly) into tradition: the "Big Four" of "The Last Thing on My Mind," "Ramblin' Boy," "I Can't Help But Wonder Where I'm Bound," and "The Marvelous Toy," plus "Going to the Zoo."

Recordings of "The Marvelous Toy" plus "Going to the Zoo" date from 1962, while "The Last Thing on My Mind," "Ramblin' Boy" and "I Can't Help But Wonder Where I'm Bound," were all on his Electra album of 1964. He's released around 100 albums since then, and must have written 1,000 more songs. While he has maintained a remarkably high standard of song-writing, his earliest songs have made the greatest mark.

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 06 Sep 26 - 04:28 AM

henryp wrote: Recordings of "The Marvelous Toy" plus "Going to the Zoo" date from 1962, while "The Last Thing on My Mind," "Ramblin' Boy" and "I Can't Help But Wonder Where I'm Bound," were all on his Electra album of 1964. He's released around 100 albums since then, and must have written 1,000 more songs. While he has maintained a remarkably high standard of song-writing, his earliest songs have made the greatest mark.

As you note, all five of his songs that have become traditional were written by the time of his first album. Some of that is probably opportunity: Something that was recorded during the Folk Scare era would be more likely to reach a lot of people than something written in, say, 1975, let alone 1990 or later. But I do think that those early songs were probably his best.

Which isn't rare. A lot of songwriters do their best work early. Look at Stephen Foster! Nor is that confined to songwriters. It's infamous that scientists and mathematicians are usually done with their best work by thirty.... I suspect most of us have a certain number of Really Good Ideas, and once they're used up, they're used up. :-)

I think Paxton deserves a good deal of credit for his ability with melody. I think of a lot of Sixties songwriters, and they stayed clever with lyrics, but they put out "songs" that were hardly more than chants -- the melodies were not worth the bother. Paxton kept producing great melodies, even if the texts deserved to be forgotten (something like "Show Me a Pretty Little Number" falls firmly into that category).

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Sep 26 - 07:22 AM

As you note, all five of his songs that have become traditional"
they have not become trad, they are his composed songs, that does not mean they are not good songs

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Sep 26 - 07:23 AM

because something is popular or sung in folk clubs that does not make it trad

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 06 Sep 26 - 07:41 AM

My definition of "traditional": passed on by oral tradition. It does not matter if we know the composer of the song, or if the song is in copyright. "Anonymous" and "traditional" are not synonyms; they don't even correlate very much.

(As an aside: My definition of "contrarian": someone who argues all the time for the sake of hearing his own voice.)

I had reasons for listing the five Paxton song I listed as being traditional. For "The Last Thing On My Mind," the evidence is the people in Scotland who sang it as traditional. For "I Can't Help But Wonder," it is the amount of circulation in bluegrass circles by people who don't know the author. For "The Marvelous Toy" and "Going to the Zoo," it is use in summer camps. "My Rambling Boy" is the most dubious of the five; I encountered a listing of it as traditional, but know of no one actually singing it as a traditional song.

None of the five has a strong place in tradition -- and I said as much. I would not bet on any of them surviving there. If any are still traditional in (say) a quarter of a century, I suspect it will be either "Can't Help But Wonder" or "Going to the Zoo"; the other three do not strike me as being at all likely to endure, based on what has survived in the past. That, however, is mere speculation. My description of songs as "traditional" is based on data.

I do not make remarks without data. It's a wonderful thing, data. If you want some, I suggest consulting the Traditional Ballad Index. It's where I show my work. Because, unlike those who merely pontificate, I do show my work.

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: GUEST,Cj
Date: 06 Sep 26 - 03:41 PM

“ As you note, all five of his songs that have become traditional ”

This made me laugh out loud!

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Sep 26 - 04:22 PM

yes, amusing

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 06 Sep 26 - 04:23 PM

“The Marvellous Toy” also became a beautifully illustrated book with accompanying CD of the song, which I bought for my grandchildren at one of his gigs in Glasgow. He liked to write songs for his children, “Jennifer’s Rabbit” being another good one.

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: GUEST,Jim Yates
Date: 06 Sep 26 - 05:08 PM

Tom has co-written songs with Cathy Fink. One I really enjoyed was "That's Why I Like Canada," written in response to Trump's attacks on Canada.

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 06 Sep 26 - 06:41 PM

Cj wrote: “ As you note, all five of his songs that have become traditional ”

This made me laugh out loud!

Are you questioning that composed songs can become traditional?

The Traditional Ballad Index lists (as of today) 4374 songs that someone has called traditional that nonetheless have known or suspected authors. I don't trust some of those attributions (for that matter, I don't trust some of the claims that the songs are traditional), but here are some of the most popular such songs; they have clearly passed by oral tradition:

Old Dan Tucker (by Dan Emmett; based on TBI citations, this is the most popular song for which we have an uncontested attribution)

Casey Jones (Laws G1) (Almost certainly by Wash Sa(u)nders, with a copyright version by Newton & Siebert

The Bonny Bunch of Roses (Laws J5) (by George Brown)

Sweet Betsy from Pike (Laws B9) (probably John A. Stone/"Old Put")

Old Folks at Home (Swanee River) (by Stephen C. Foster)

Little Rosewood Casket (by Louis P. Goullaud & Charles A. White)

Little Brown Jug (by Eastburn=Joseph Eastburn Winner)

James Bird (Laws A5) (by James Miner)

Peter Amberley (Laws C27) (by John Calhoun)

Dixie (by Dan Emmett)

Golden Slippers (by James A. Bland)

Oh! Susanna (by Stephen C. Foster)

Darling Nelly Gray (by B. R. Hanby)

How many of us have never sung any of these?

Even some of the allegedly-traditional Child Ballads have known authors (e.g. Martin Parker wrote the truly dreadful "A True Tale of Robin Hood") and Anna Gordon Brown is suspected of having written others.

"Traditional" and "Anonymous" are not synonyms. Neither are "Traditional" and "public domain." More than a fifth of the songs in the Traditional Ballad Index are of known authorship, and I suspect a significant fraction of the others could have been attributed had the collectors worked with the informants to research the songs rather than just transcribing them.

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 26 - 12:30 AM

AI Overview
No, original songs by Tom Paxton do not appear as main entries in the Traditional Ballad Index, which focuses strictly on traditional folk songs, broadsides, and Child ballads rather than modern, copyrighted singer-songwriter compositions.
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How Tom Paxton Appears in the Index

    Brief Mentions: His name only surfaces in notes to distinguish traditional folk pieces from contemporary compositions.
    Title Clarity: For example, the entry for the traditional song "The Ramblin' Boy" includes a note telling researchers not to confuse it with Tom Paxton’s well-known modern song of the same name.
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About the Index and Paxton's Work

    Traditional Focus: The Traditional Ballad Index catalogs traditional folk heritage material rather than the 1960s "new song" movement that Paxton helped pioneer.
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    Modern Standards: Songs like "The Last Thing on My Mind" and "Ramblin' Boy" are modern folk standards widely recorded by other artists, but they remain attributed to Paxton rather than anonymous traditional tradition

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 26 - 12:45 AM

Bottle of wine composed by Tom Paxton is a good song not in my opinion his best, and is not listed in the tradtional ballad index, Neither are any Jez Lowe songs or Bob Dylan songs

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 26 - 12:52 AM

I think Rambling Boy is an excellent song, a great tune and lyrics that describe friendship, all in all, a positive song

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Sep 26 - 02:27 AM

Home to Me (Is Anywhere You Are). <3

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: Reinhard
Date: 07 Sep 26 - 04:52 AM

> AI Overview
> No, original songs by Tom Paxton do not appear as main entries in the Traditional Ballad Index

Dick, perhaps you shouldn't spread AI lies but go to the sources. These are the files in the Traditional Ballad Index:

FSWB061
TITLE: My Rambling Boy
AUTHOR: Tom Paxton
EARLIEST DATE: 1963 (copyright)

FSWB052
TITLE: I Can't Help But Wonder Where I'm Bound
AUTHOR: Tom Paxton
EARLIEST DATE: 1963

DTlastmi
TITLE: Last Thing On My Mind, The
AUTHOR: Tom Paxton
EARLIEST DATE: 1964 (recording, Tom Paxton)

ACSF550Z
TITLE: Going to the Zoo
AUTHOR: Tom Paxton
EARLIEST DATE: 1961 (copyright)

ACSF540M
TITLE: Marvelous Toy, The
AUTHOR: Tom Paxton
EARLIEST DATE: 1960 (copyrighted 1961)

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 07 Sep 26 - 06:27 AM

In addition to what Reinhard said, there are a few more things you can learn from those five Ballad Index records. (Note the absurdity of seeking an AI overview when one has the actual editor of the Index on this board. You can always ask, if you're willing to admit to not knowing everything. I know from experience that I don't know everything! AI is particularly ill-suited to dealing with the Index because Google doesn't read the BI very well.)

Those five records also tell you what sources I was referring to when I created the entries. The two children's songs, "The Marvelous Toy" and "Going to the Zoo," were included because they are cited in Averill's Camp Song Folk Song.

For "The Last Thing on My Mind," the source that caused my to include the song is not a book that is indexable, so the reference I used for the text was none other than the Digital Tradition.

For "My Rambling Boy" and "Can't Help But Wonder," the reference source is Silber's Folksinger's Wordbook.

Averill is a funny source, because she almost never cites her sources. Everything about what she did is dubious, but it's still an important book because no one has studied camp songs so thoroughly. So I made a rule: I only indexed songs in Averill for which she claimed to have six sources. I don't know what those sources are; they might be good (an actual field collection) or bad (a mention in a camp songbook) -- but there are at least six of them.

In the case of "Last Thing On My Mind," there is a field collection of sorts from Newfoundland. This is described in the notes to the song.

There are similar notes on the reasons for inclusion of the two songs from the Folksinger's Wordbook, both of which express doubts that the song is truly traditional.

Really, rather than relying on artificial stupidity to "prove" falsehoods, it's easy to just go to the Index. Use the new search engine and search author fields for "Paxton." It's about as fast as the AI, it isn't as polluting -- and it's accurate.

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 07 Sep 26 - 07:02 AM

Tom Paxton calls himself one of Woody's Children, and is now their elder statesman. I would agree that he matches Bob Dylan and Jez Lowe in his productivity. And the breadth of his subjects is wider than that of most song writers.

He published The Honor of Your Company in 2000 and Comedians & Angels in 2008. David King Dunaway and Molly Beer extensively interviewed Tom Paxton in Singing Out: An Oral History of America's Folk Music Revivals (2010).

Tom's song-writing career continues still! He has been writing songs with Cathy Fink, a musical collaborator for more than twenty years. And Cathy is keen to see a new biography of Tom.

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: GUEST,Joe in MN
Date: 07 Sep 26 - 09:12 AM

Speaking of camp songs and learning songs from the oral tradition: at my camp, Can't Help But Wonder Where I'm Bound has been popular for many decades - but sung to the tune of Blowing In The Wind. Which works really well, so well that I can't unhear it and learn Paxton's melody.

Rambling Boy is also very popular there - sung to the original melody.

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: NightWing
Date: 07 Sep 26 - 12:34 PM

Robert B. Waltz said:

AI is particularly ill-suited to dealing with the Index because Google doesn't read the BI very well.

IMO, it's more accurate to put the period after the word ill-suited. That is, AI is particularly ill-suited ... to anything.

BB,
NightWing

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 07 Sep 26 - 01:43 PM

NightWing wrote: IMO, it's more accurate to put the period after the word "ill-suited". That is, "AI is particularly ill-suited" ... to anything.

Much as I tend to agree, there really is a problem with Google and the Ballad Index. We had to commission our own search engine because Google wouldn't search it right. And that means the AI crawlers will tend not to ingest it very efficiently, because they don't understand it.

I don't know why Google has so much trouble with the Ballad Index, but I suspect it is because Google's weighting algorithm still tends to prioritize heavily-linked pages, and the Ballad Index is designed to not have heavily-linked pages. :-)

But, again, this means that Ballad Index searches need to be conducted with a search engine that understands it -- not Google, not DuckDuckGo, and not AI.

If you do search the whole Index for "Tom Paxton," you'll also learn that there is another traditional song "Ramblin' Boy." It's an alternate title for "The Wild and Wicked Youth" [Laws L12].

Subject: my Ballad Index search
From: Reinhard
Date: 07 Sep 26 - 02:19 PM

I'm happy that the Ballad Index consists of plain text files (even if they contain a few HTML commands). So I don't need any search engine but the Unix grep command in a terminal window, basically

% cd ~/Music/BalladIndex/Ballads; grep 'Tom Paxton' *

or, as I have put this in a Unix function

% bgrep 'Tom Paxton'

or

% bgrep 'AUTHOR.*Tom Paxton'

or

% open $(bgrep -l 'AUTHOR.*Tom Paxton')

to show all found files in seperate tabs in my browser

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Sep 26 - 03:19 AM

So YELLOW SUBMARINE becomes a tradtional song?
this illustrates what rubbish the categorieation of the ballad index meanwhile Tom Paxton is rightly receiving his royalties, if i recordec it and put it as trad, i would be defrauding him of money, and not credting his artistic output. what the ballad index is doing is creating an oxymoron, and whoever is compiling it could possibly be encouraging misappropriation   of royalties. Has Tom sent his royalties to EFDSS?

The primary purpose of classification labels is to categorize information or assets by their sensitivity and value so that organizations can apply proper security, handling, and compliance controls

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 08 Sep 26 - 04:38 AM

The Sandman wrote: So YELLOW SUBMARINE becomes a tradtional song?

Anything could become a traditional song. (I'm not sure about "tradtional" songs.) I wouldn't be surprised if there are Taylor Swift songs that have become traditional; popularity is a big help. Look at all the field collected versions of "The Wreck of the Old 97" that include the Vernon Dalhart error "It was on that grade that he lost his average" rather than "lost his airbreaks"; they are the majority among versions I've seen. In other words, most field collections of that song are derived from Dalhart's recording.

But if people learned "Yellow Submarine" from the Beatles, or if they know it as a Beatles song, then it is not traditional. If people learned it from someone else, and don't know it as a Beatles song, then it's traditional. Which is not to say that it's public domain or anonymous.

As far as I know, and as far as I can tell from any source I've seen, "Yellow Submarine" is not traditional. But I am not a musical bigot. I index songs I do not approve of (e.g. "Sir Hugh, or The Jew's Daughter," and hundreds if not thousands of minstrel pieces.) If I see the evidence, I will index it -- and list the author and copyright date so that people will know that it is not public domain and is not anonymous.

The Traditional Ballad Index is definitely not "The Songs I Approve Of Index."

If "public domain" or "anonymous" were synonymous with "traditional," we wouldn't need a word "traditional." They are not synonyms.

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Sep 26 - 03:48 AM

Another good song written by Tom Paxton is what did you learn in school today

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: clueless don
Date: 09 Sep 26 - 08:00 AM

There is some mention in this thread of his "children's songs" as against his "adult songs". On that basis, I want to give an honorable mention to "I've got a yo-yo", which was part of the soundtrack of our child's upbringing.

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 09 Sep 26 - 09:15 AM

My sentimental favorite is still "Bottle of Wine,"
from growing up with the "garage band" hit single version.
One to sing along with while listening to the car radio.

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: Jason Xion Wang
Date: 10 Sep 26 - 02:56 AM

Speaking of “traditional” Tom Paxton songs, there is at least one particular Tom Paxton song that was actually credited as “Traditional” on an officially released record. I suspect Tom never received any songwriter royalties for that particular recording as a result. The song is If You Had Me in Shackles.

See: The Mitchell Trio – Leaving on a Jet Plane

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Sep 26 - 03:12 AM

indeed

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 10 Sep 26 - 06:10 AM

I'm sure there was no intention to deny Tom Paxton his royalties! "If You Had Me In Shackles" was performed in concerts in 1968 by the line-up that succeeded Chad Mitchell, featuring John Denver, Michael Johnson, and David Boise.

Tom had a long and close relationship with the Chad Mitchell Trio. Shortly after his honorable discharge from the Army, Paxton auditioned for the Chad Mitchell Trio via publisher Milt Okun in 1960. He initially received the part, but his voice did not blend well enough with those of the group members. However, after singing his song "The Marvelous Toy" for Okun, he became the first writer signed to Okun's music publishing company, Cherry Lane Music Publishing. Wikipedia

The trio became the very first group to record one of his songs; The Chad Mitchell Trio At The Bitter End 1962, "Come Along Home (Tom's Song)". And Tom wrote the foreword to "We Never Knew Just What it Was ... The Story of the Chad Mitchell Trio", published in 2021.

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Sep 26 - 06:43 AM

Tom Paxton sustained a six-decade folk music career largely through steady songwriting royalties, touring, and careful financial management
Living Off Royalties: Unlike many musicians who chased pop stardom, Paxton built a sustainable living through royalties, teaching, and festival appearances. )Smart Management: He maintained strict control over his finances and catalog,
THE pRESIDENT IS FOR SALE, is a good song

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 10 Sep 26 - 07:38 AM

henryp wrote: "If You Had Me In Shackles" was performed in concerts in 1968 by the line-up that succeeded Chad Mitchell, featuring John Denver, Michael Johnson, and David Boise.

This is not wrong, but it might give a false impression, because there were some complexities in the process.

When Chad Mitchell left the Chad Mitchell Trio, it was not a pleasant break-up -- Mitchell and Mike Kobluk had major differences. Clearly the title "Chad Mitchell Trio" had to go.

So the lineup that replaced Mitchell with John Denver was not "The Chad Mitchell Trio" but "The Mitchell Trio." And even that name had restrictions on it: It could only be used as long as at least one of the other more-or-less-original members (Kobluk and Joe Frazier) remained with the group.

IIRC, the Denver/Kobluk/Frazier lineup lasted long enough to release two albums. Then Frazier quit and David Boise joined. That group released the last "Mitchell Trio" album (which I personally quite liked, but it wasn't much like the early Trio albums). Then Kobluk quit, and the Mitchell Trio was gone; the replacement went by the name of the three members, Denver, Boise, and Mike Johnson.

So there was continuity of a sort, but both the sound and the repertoire changed dramatically as the group changed. The Chad Mitchell Trio had been a purely vocal group -- Mitchell, Frazier, and Kobluk sang and did not play instruments; you could argue that they were really a quartet with Jim McGuin providing the accompaniments. Whereas Denver, Boise, and Johnson were a strong instrumental group -- Johnson in particular was noted more as a guitarist than singer, or so it seems to me.

There is a pretty good book about the history of the Trio by Mike Murphy: We Never Knew Just What It Was (note the title, since this is a Tom Paxton thread!). I learned a lot from it -- about the group's internal struggles, about Paxton, about Milt Okun (and how he found the Trio much easier to manage than Peter, Paul and Mary), about how much trouble Chad Mitchell got into after leaving the group, and so forth.

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: Jason Xion Wang
Date: 10 Sep 26 - 12:08 PM

No, they didn't intend to deny Tom's royalties, but obviously the record company had no idea that Tom wrote it.

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 10 Sep 26 - 01:06 PM

It does get complicated! "Leaving On A Jet Plane" was a compilation album released by Reprise in 2018 by John Denver, sub-titled Original Recordings by The Mitchell Trio And Denver, Boise & Johnson.

The Mitchell Trio sang "If You Had Me In Shackles". Denver, Boise & Johnson sang "Victoria Dines Alone", also written by Tom Paxton.

There was another compilation album; Beginnings; John Denver With The Mitchell Trio released by Mercury in 1974. That was a third album of The Mitchell Trio of Frazier, Denver and Kobluk.

Other Tom Paxton songs recorded by The (Chad) Mitchell Trio and John Denver include The Marvelous Toy, What Did You Learn In School Today?, We Didn't Know, Can't Help But Wonder Where I'm Bound, Ballad of Spiro Agnew, Whose Garden Was This?, Jimmy Newman and Forest Lawn.

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 10 Sep 26 - 01:31 PM

henryp wrote: It does get complicated!

Yeah -- I wasn't even thinking about the reunion or recompilation albums. :-)

The Mitchell Trio, in its sundry incarnations, was probably my favorite of all those Sixties folk groups (Kingston Trio; Peter, Paul & Mary; Brothers Four, etc.) when I was growing up. I think my parents felt the same way, since they had acquired all the Mitchell Trio albums except one (which I managed to find for them years later). So we didn't have much need for the recompilations. :-) They did eventually get a reunion album, I think.

There was also a very early album in which they were introduced to the world. They sang two or three songs, and I think Harry Belafonte and Odetta were also on the recording. Or some such. I won't swear to that; that album didn't get much play in my parents' house.

I always wondered why "Come Along Home" didn't get more attention early in Paxton's career. My father told a story about a fairly early Paxton concert where someone requested "Come Along Home," and Paxton talked about never being asked for that one. Or some such. Third-hand story, so some details may have gotten garbled. :-)

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 10 Sep 26 - 02:51 PM

There was also a very early album in which they were introduced to the world. They sang two or three songs, and I think Harry Belafonte and Odetta were also on the recording.

Belafonte's 2nd Carnegie Hall album Belafonte Returns to... &c.
RCA LSO/LPM 6007, 1960.

The Chad Mitchell Trio appears as the 'small time' or 'costume changer' act between the 'big timers.'

Vaichazkem (Vayiven Uziaho)
I Do Adore Her
The Ballad Of Sigmund Freud

Miriam Makeba also makes an appearance. Walter Raim, Milt Okun, Garrett Morris & all three Phoenix Singers were in The Belafonte Singers (mostly uncredited.)

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 10 Sep 26 - 03:01 PM

Phil d'Conch wrote: Belafonte's 2nd Carnegie Hall album Belafonte Returns to... &c.

That's clearly the one. Thanks.

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: GerryM
Date: 10 Sep 26 - 06:37 PM

"Tom had a long and close relationship with the Chad Mitchell Trio." Absolutely. But, as has been pointed out, the trio that recorded Shackles had no member in common with the trio with which Paxton had a close relationship, so I don't think that relationship has any bearing on the recording of Shackles.

Also, the history of personnel changes in the Chad Mitchell Trio included in an earlier post in this thread didn't mention Mike Pugh, who was in the first incarnation of the group. Only after he left did the trio bring in Joe Frazier.

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 10 Sep 26 - 07:05 PM

GerryM wrote: Also, the history of personnel changes in the Chad Mitchell Trio included in an earlier post in this thread didn't mention Mike Pugh, who was in the first incarnation of the group. Only after he left did the trio bring in Joe Frazier.

Absolutely. And Paxton auditioned for the group, and was accepted until they concluded that his voice didn't blend well with Mitchell's and Kobluk's. But Pugh was gone before the Trio recorded "The John Birch Society" and the album "Mighty Day on Campus," and started getting national attention. The Chad Mitchell Trio was hardly The Beatles, but I've always thought of Pugh as the Pete Best of Mitchell-dom.

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: GerryM
Date: 11 Sep 26 - 07:35 AM

"The Chad Mitchell Trio was hardly The Beatles, but I've always thought of Pugh as the Pete Best of Mitchell-dom."

Does that make John Denver the Yoko Ono?

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 11 Sep 26 - 08:05 AM

GerryM wrote: Does that make John Denver the Yoko Ono [of the Mitchell Trio]?

:-)

Pretty clearly not, because Denver was hired as a replacement for Chad Mitchell after Mitchell unilaterally quit. The Beatles were more like a grenade exploding, I think: they all went off at once. (I'm not an expert on Beatle-dom. Or on Mitchell-dom, really, but I did read the Murphy book.)

Furthermore, Chad Mitchell's career was a true disaster after leaving the Trio. As far as I know, none of the Beatles were convicted of crimes.

Another important point is that the Chad Mitchell Trio had Milt Okun as music director. That was important in the Paxton context, because Okun often brought songs to the Mitchell Trio. The Beatles were their own song-generators.

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: Jason Xion Wang
Date: 11 Sep 26 - 12:34 PM

Well, two things to rectify,

First, the trio that recorded Shackles did have one member in common with the trio with which Paxton had a close relationship: Mike Kobluk. It was recorded in 1967, a year before Kobluk was replaced by Michael Johnson.

Second, I'm pretty sure that the trio did remaine in close contact with Tom even after all of the original members had left. Listen to Michael Johnson's intro to Victoria Dines Alone in their 1968 concert recording and you'll see what I mean. There is also a demo recording of the Denver/Boise/Johnson trio doing Now That I've taken My Life before Tom recorded it himself.

Subject: RE: Review: Favorite Tom Paxton song
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 11 Sep 26 - 02:37 PM

10 Sep 26 - 01:06 PM The Mitchell Trio sang "If You Had Me In Shackles". Denver, Boise & Johnson sang "Victoria Dines Alone", also written by Tom Paxton. Other Tom Paxton songs recorded by The (Chad) Mitchell Trio and John Denver include The Marvelous Toy, What Did You Learn In School Today, We Didn't Know, Can't Help But Wonder Where I'm Bound, Ballad of Spiro Agnew, Whose Garden Was This, Jimmy Newman and Forest Lawn.

Tom Paxton had a very successful relationship with The Mitchell Trio. They also recorded the following songs written by Tom; "The Natural Girl For Me" (on Typical American Boys, 1965) "One Time And One Time Only", "Talking Football" (on Violets Of The Dawn, 1965) and "Cindy's Cryin'" (on Alive, 1967), which I heard sung in a folk club only last week. I suspect that there are even more!