Getting Permission To Record Frog & Vicar

Subject: Getting Permission To Record
From: GUEST,Bev Praver
Date: 04 Sep 26 - 06:01 PM

How do I get permission to record when the author is deceased and I can't find out who controls the copyright now?
Authorship of The Frog and The Vicar seems to be a matter of debate, according to a previous thread. We have sung it for decades and were assured by Peter Dauncy that he wrote it with another man. Others say that Stan Crowther wrote it. I know he sang it, but did he write it? Both men are deceased.

Subject: RE: Getting Permission To Record Frog & Vicar
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Sep 26 - 07:07 PM

Generally it seems to be attributed to Stan Crowther (d: 2013)
So is copyright until 2083, unless you can get permission from the estate.

Subject: RE: Getting Permission To Record Frog & Vicar
From: Nick Dow
Date: 05 Sep 26 - 03:01 AM

Record it under MCPS. Remember to quote the name of the publishing company if one exists. Frog and Vicar Crowther (Whatever Music) MCPS.
You need an agreement with MCPS; their details are online.
Many people today publish and be damned. Depends on your moral standpoint. The argument is that no money ends up with the songwriter or their estate either way. On one occasion, I published under MCPS. The songwriter was delighted the publishing company were not. I offered to send the dosh straight to the songwriter! They went barmy at the thought. Naff off or something that sounds like that works very well.
Get in touch with the Crowther estate if you like, and welcome to the music business. Enjoy!
Some people go for 'Copyright Control' and leave it at that. That's another way of saying get in touch with me if you want to. With the amount of stuff online, I imagine you will need to sell an alarming number of copies before anybody takes any notice.

Subject: RE: Getting Permission To Record Frog & Vicar
From: r.padgett
Date: 05 Sep 26 - 03:40 AM

Yes as Nick says

Credit Stan Crowther former Local Rotherham Councillor and MP ~ refused Peerage I believe and fine song writer

Ray

Subject: RE: Getting Permission To Record Frog & Vicar
From: GUEST,James E
Date: 05 Sep 26 - 08:19 AM

I checked the PRS database and the song is registered by Stan Crowther, under the title Vicar and the Frog. So the legal route (in the UK at least, I don't know how it works elsewhere) is to get a PRS licence. Legally speaking, you don't need permission from anyone - that's part of the point of the licensing system.

Subject: RE: Getting Permission To Record Frog & Vicar
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 26 - 02:50 PM

Thanks James but PRS is performing rights, however MCPS is Mechanical Copyright as in recording/broadcasting.

Subject: RE: Getting Permission To Record Frog & Vicar
From: GUEST,James E
Date: 05 Sep 26 - 05:22 PM

Sure - but since it's all done through the PRS For Music website it's what the lawyers like to call a distinction without a difference.

Subject: RE: Getting Permission To Record Frog & Vicar
From: Nick Dow
Date: 06 Sep 26 - 07:34 AM

Sorry, that guest was yours truly. If there is no difference, there is less of a problem, I suppose.

Subject: RE: Getting Permission To Record Frog & Vicar
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Sep 26 - 07:49 AM

There are important differences. These are entirely different licences provided by separate organisations, although they work cooperatively and PRS handles the admin on behalf of MCPS.

PRS licenses the venue for live performance or to play recorded music, and the fees go to pay the composers' royalties. If you are a performer you don't have to worry about copyright or permission, you can perform Vicar and the Frog or any other copyright song and it is the venue's responsibility to report its use. However if you want to record it you (strictly the producer, but often musicians are their own producer) must get a mechanical licence from MCPS.

With a few exceptions, James E is correct that you don't the copyright holder's express permission to record. In fact, if they are members of MCPS (which commercial publishers probably are) then they have assigned those rights to MCPS and so are not able to grant permission themselves.

Even if you are recording traditional music or your own compositions you still need a licence from MCPS.

This differences may not seem significant, but music copyright is already a complicated minefield (there is also copyright in the recording itself, which is handled by a third organisation, PPL) so it's important to be accurate.

Subject: RE: Getting Permission To Record Frog & Vicar
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Sep 26 - 09:55 AM

Nick Dow wrote "Many people today publish and be damned. Depends on your moral standpoint. The argument is that no money ends up with the songwriter or their estate either way. "

The societies do pay out. However to get paid, the songwriter needs to be a member of the relevant copyright society. PRS costs £100 so you need to be writing a lot of songs to justify it, and most amateurs, especially on the folk scene, don't bother. Then you have to report your performances, otherwise PRS won't know to pay royalties.

To become a member of MCPS your work has to have first been recorded, and self-publication doesn't count. In those cases MCPS can't help, and anyone wanting to record your music must try to contact you to agree a fee.

For composers who are members, or who have publishers, then they will get paid. However it is true that many amateur/semi-pro writers on the folk scene will not.

Subject: RE: Getting Permission To Record Frog & Vicar
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 13 Sep 26 - 06:47 AM

I honestly don't know why anyone would touch this song with a 12-foot pole in 2026.

The message of this song? All Anglican clergymen are homosexual and all homosexuals are paedophiles.

Noel Murphy was frequently heard performing this song. Should tell you everything you need to know.

I should stick with the Bernard Manning videos if I were you.

Subject: RE: Getting Permission To Record Frog & Vicar
From: Nick Dow
Date: 13 Sep 26 - 07:40 PM

Nice:-(    See you on Zoom, Bev.

Subject: RE: Getting Permission To Record Frog & Vicar
From: GUEST,Georgina Boyes
Date: 14 Sep 26 - 06:59 AM

No one should sing songs with sentiments or lyrics they find objectionable, but in the case of "The Vicar and the Frog" the description of the song given is not as appears in the text (which is available on Mudcat). The lyrics don't state or even infer that the Vicar is homosexual - even less that "All Anglican clergymen are homosexual". It is an unfortunate fact that people of all religions and none have been found to abuse children, but I know from specific confersations with Stan Crowther (whom I knew well over many years) that - even during the years when a link between being gay and pederasty was prevalent - it was never his view.

As for performances by Noel Murphy, songwriters have little control over who sings their songs - as regular objections by musicians about their recordings being used as part of political rallies amply demonstrates.

If the song has a theme, it could be argued that it's main target is the hypocrisy of the "very, very holy man".

And finally, it's worth remembering that the song is fiction - so far as I know magical transformations are not used as evidence in court cases.

Subject: RE: Getting Permission To Record Frog & Vicar
From: Nick Dow
Date: 14 Sep 26 - 07:36 AM

Just in the brains of one poster here. Present company excepted Georgina!

Subject: RE: Getting Permission To Record Frog & Vicar
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 26 - 01:10 PM

Thanks for all the advice. I will have a look at the MCPS website and figure out what to do.

Subject: RE: Getting Permission To Record Frog & Vicar
From: Nick Dow
Date: 27 Sep 26 - 01:50 PM

Not sure how MCPS works outside of the UK Bev.