Favourite Ewan MacColl songs

Subject: Favourite Ewan MacColl soings
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Sep 26 - 01:51 AM

what a fine songwriter, his first song The Manchester Rambler is one of mine

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl soings
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 10 Sep 26 - 09:31 AM

School Days Over

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl soings
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Sep 26 - 10:22 AM

30ft Trailer, Shoals of Herring, Dirty Old Town. Too many.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl soings
From: GUEST,Susanne (skw)
Date: 10 Sep 26 - 09:34 PM

I agree, Steve. But the most moving one, to me, is The Joy of Living - in his own version. Neither Roy Bailey's nor Geordie MacIntyre's (two of my favourite singers) nor anybody else's can match it imho.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl soings
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 10 Sep 26 - 10:07 PM

Like Steve Gardham, I too would say "Too many." Some that, on their face, shouldn't be that great. I mean, what makes "Sweet Thames Flow Softly" better than any love song, other than a strange gimmick? Yet I like that song a lot. I would probably choose that or "Dirty Old Town" as my favorite. But it's very hard.

And yet, "The Joy of Living" is the one I most often quote to others. The idea of still being a help when one is gone... well, I'm old enough to appreciate it.

What I think these lists show is MacColl's great skill as a maker of tunes. He can add magic to something that shouldn't be magic.

Ironically, the song that was the most successful, "The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face," has never done much for me.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl soings
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Sep 26 - 01:48 AM

According to Jim Carroll who knew him well.Ewan would take existing tunes and sing them over and over gradually altering them.
Champion at keeping them trolling uses the tune of the limerick Rake.
Ewan used to say that he did not consider his songs to be either folk songs or traditional[ source [Jim Carroll]
Ewan had been a plaYwright, which explains his craftsmanship with words.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl soings
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Sep 26 - 02:15 AM

my comments are purely factual, however people wish to interpret them as their subjective perspective.
that is one of the failings of internet communication. another fine song is "my old man"

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl soings
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 11 Sep 26 - 04:26 AM

How is calling anyone "a fine songwriter" "purely factual"? "So and so is my favorite songwriter" could be a statement of fact, but "So and so is a great/good/fine/bad songwriter" is an opinion.

Unless you have a measurable definition for "fine," anyway.

And I say that even though I too consider MacColl a very good songwriter. But that's my opinion, and no more.

Let's not confuse opinions with facts. That's what politicians do.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl soings
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 11 Sep 26 - 05:14 AM

Incidentally, for those who like extreme tangents, the difference between opinion and fact does come up a few times in folk song.

(Don't bother with this unless you like tangents. Really. It has nothing to do with MacColl.)

An example is "Charles Guiteau," about the murder of James A. Garfield. A typical version will have Guiteau, in his gallows confession, say that he "tried to play off insane."

This is, more or less, true; in his trial, he offered insanity as one of his several defenses, though every source I've read says that his heart wasn't in it; he didn't believe it. He had a couple of other defenses, e.g. that he hadn't killed Garfield, that Garfield's doctors were responsible. (Which most moderns think is true, but Guiteau had tried to kill Garfield, so that was no defense.)

Guiteau's insanity defense went nowhere, but one twentieth century book, Charles E. Rosenberg's The Trial of the Assassin Guiteau: Psychiatry and the Law in the Gilded Age tried to argue that Guiteau had schizophrenia, which perhaps would have entitled him to an insanity defense.

Rosenberg, however, wrote before the diagnosis of schizophrenia was standardized, and it seems clear that Guiteau was not schizophrenic. Guiteau had delusions (delusions of grandeur, or at least of competence); I don't think any modern would argue with this. But he explicitly denied hallucinations, and delusions alone, without hallucinations or certain other symptoms, will not get you a schizophrenia diagnosis. So Guiteau had delusions -- confused opinions with facts -- but they did not rise to the level of insanity.

Note: This has nothing to do with the original poster on this thread, and I am not accusing anyone here of delusions or mental disorder. It's just that, as a scientist, or at least someone trained in science, I am deeply invested in the distinction between fact and opinion.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl soings
From: gillymor
Date: 11 Sep 26 - 07:23 AM

Probably "Sweet Thames..." and "Freeborn Man of the Travelling People".

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: GerryM
Date: 11 Sep 26 - 07:40 AM

Nothing to contribute about MacC, but the typo in the title was driving me crazy, so I fixed it. Carry on.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl soings
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 11 Sep 26 - 08:10 AM

For what it's worth, "The Moving-On Song" has a Roud Number (#6852). Sheila Stewart picked it up, and there are a couple of other sort-of-traditional collections. "Shoals of Herring" is Roud #13642, though I don't know that any of the collections would count as being from oral tradition.

I'm a bit surprised "Cannily, Cannily" hasn't turned up somewhere.

And my apologies -- to The Sandman and all -- for getting cranky above. People confusing opinion and fact really does irk me, but that's no reason to take it out on people here.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl soings
From: Reinhard
Date: 11 Sep 26 - 08:45 AM

There are also Come All Ye Fisher Lassies (Roud #12504, and one of my favourites), The Manchester Rambler (Roud #26771), and The Tunnel Tigers (Roud #35320).

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl soings
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Sep 26 - 04:09 AM

n 1964, MacColl, Peggy Seeger, and Charles Parker produced The Travelling People, a groundbreaking BBC radio documentary featuring real audio recordings and original songs about the nomadic lifestyle. Caravan Sites Act 1968
A bill that was introduced by Eric Lubbock.
"Freeborn Man" is one of my favourites from that programme, "Freeborn Man" is imo one of the most powerful tracks from The Radio Ballads, and the programme it came from, had a profound effect on public awareness.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl soings
From: Nick Dow
Date: 12 Sep 26 - 05:26 AM

It's worth mentioning that some travellers rewrote 'Thirty-foot Trailer' as 'Good luck to the Hawthorne and the Clover (that wasn't the title). The Romanies found the song fine as is.
I personally cannot stand 'Joy of Living '; for me, the only thing missing from a self-important song is a verse suggesting that we should be raising a statue to the great McColl. As Bob said, only my opinion.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl soings
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 12 Sep 26 - 06:23 AM

Nick Dow wrote: I personally cannot stand 'Joy of Living '; for me, the only thing missing from a self-important song is a verse suggesting that we should be raising a statue to the great McColl.

What this shows, I think, is how easy it is to hear different things in songs. :-) I see your point when you make it, but the parts of that song that I quote are the other parts. :-)

But there is another thing which largely supports your view. MacColl's tell-not-mucj autobiography Journeyman: An Autobiography is a pretty biased document (e.g. it really ignores his World War II activities). Near the end, it has a chapter which is about, and includes, "The Joy of Living."

The book really should end there. Let someone else write an afterword to tell of his final decline and death. But, no, MacColl had to spoil the ending by writing that chapter and then adding several more chapters that are basically screeds against things he doesn't like.

He sure knew how to ruin his own ending. :-)

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl soings
From: Nick Dow
Date: 12 Sep 26 - 07:57 AM

His account of the BBC's production work contains several inaccuracies.
Mainly, the editing and production of reel-to-reel programmes. This is how I started in my somewhat turbulent career at the BBC, and I know that the tape shortage was a problem even in the early 1980s, so tapes went out with edits done by hand with razor blades.
None of this is really important, but he talks about the production of the Radio Ballads as if he were an expert. This may then cause some doubt in his accounts in other areas.
To be clear, I admire McColl as a songwriter, and he was an excellent if opinionated teacher. I find it a bit difficult to excuse his other shortcomings, namely his non-existent Scottish accent, and I felt I was in danger of tripping up over his ego. However, working for the BBC, I soon got used to that. Yes, he enriched my musical life. (So does the Ballad Index!)

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl soings
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 12 Sep 26 - 08:21 AM

I think Nick has a good point here. I can't test much of MacColl's autobiography (except, e.g., by comparing it to what Peggy Seeger has said), but the key point is that MacColl has shown himself an unreliable narrator. And once you're unreliable in one thing, you can't be trusted in any.

I think much of MacColl's power as a songwriter is his ability to make songs that feel "rooted" -- when he wrote "Shoals of Herring," he sounds like a fisherman though he wasn't one; when he wrote of the lives of the Travelers, he sounded like a Traveler. That's a great gift and a great skill, and it seems he succeeded (since Travelers took to his songs, and Sam Larner liked "Shoals of Herring").

But we need to be prepared to question. Nick Dow clearly has more right to question MacColl than I do, and I think we should be willing to listen to his questions. That doesn't inherently mean that either MacColl or Dow is correct. But we can't blindly accept anything MacColl said!

A good example, sez I, is the versions of songs he claimed to get from his parents. Surprisingly, his tune for "Eppie Morrie" turned out to be legitimate. But what about his other tunes for traditional songs? Has anyone sat down and tested them all? Not that I've heard of.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl soings
From: Nick Dow
Date: 12 Sep 26 - 10:22 AM

I might be wrong, but wasn't there a recording of McColl's mother singing? (Mary??) Miller. Somebody will put me right, no doubt. It would be interesting to hear her for comparison, as you have suggested, Bob.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl soings
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Sep 26 - 10:43 AM

yes, i do have measurable definitions for good song writing. good well crafted lyrics
well composed tunes, Rambling Boy is in that category, as regards being a very singable tune
Stephen Foster wrote very singable tunes.
The Singing Postman, his song Nicotine Girl is very singable,and it got in to the hit parade,as did Dirty Old Town composed by Ewan MacColl

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl soings
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 12 Sep 26 - 11:15 AM

Nick Dow wrote: I might be wrong, but wasn't there a recording of McColl's mother singing? (Mary??) Miller

Betsy Miller, and yes, there are a few recordings of her. (None of MacColl's father.) There's no question that she sang, and that her son learned songs from her.

But there are instances where MacColl was the only person with a melody for a song, which he claimed to have from his father or his mother.

Bronson is, let us say, not entirely polite about these things. "Eppie Morrie" is the one I remember and can check. Bronson's note to the song are three sentences long, and in those three sentences he twice says that MacColl is the only source of the tune. He calls MacColl's performance a "vigorous rendition" (which I agree with), but it seems pretty clear he thinks MacColl made up the tune.

In this case, Bronson's implication was wrong; Jimmy McBeath was later found to also sing that tune, so MacColl really did have a memory of a traditional melody. (As for the "vigorous rendition," MacColl apparently upped the tempo tremendously to make it short enough to fit on a 78.)

But there are other MacColl tunes that are open to question -- e.g. he supplied the only melody Bronson found for "Willie Macintosh."

I don't have a list of songs for which MacColl is the only source, so I can't readily research the point. But I think it an interesting question.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl soings
From: weerover
Date: 12 Sep 26 - 04:01 PM

A lot of fine songs, my own choice would be "The Terror Time"

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl soings
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 12 Sep 26 - 04:03 PM

"Sweet Thames" is one of my favourites thanks to the 7 years I spent in London in my student days and beyond. But it would have been easier to learn if the locations had been in geographical order!
And a certain version from a weel-known band irks me, when they sing "Lighthouse Reach" - anyone who knows the East of London would know that it's "Limehouse Reach"!

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl soings
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Sep 26 - 04:17 PM

The thing is, MacColl published several books and endless recordings. If his parents had tunes to rare/unique ballads wouldn't he have published them in the books and made a song and dance about his parents' singing?

I collected songs (yes collected) from my mother, uncles and maternal grandparents and am tremendously proud of my family's songs. The recordings are potentially available on the BL site (when it gets back in action) and some are published in books.

Just asking.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl soings
From: GerryM
Date: 12 Sep 26 - 05:42 PM

No one has mentioned Ballad of Accounting?

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl soings
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 12 Sep 26 - 06:07 PM

Steve Gardham wrote: If his parents had tunes to rare/unique ballads wouldn't he have published them in the books and made a song and dance about his parents' singing?

Spoken like a true academic folklorist. :-)

To give MacColl the benefit of the doubt, he didn't come out of an academic environment; he came out of a labouring household. And his original escape wasn't by his music (even though that was clearly his great talent); it was through drama.

And his father died young. Even had MacColl thought of it, there was no real way to "collect" his father's music; all he could do was recall it. His mother was another matter -- and, in fact, some of her music was recorded. Not much -- but he wasn't so successful as to make "Ewan MacColl's mother" a likely marketing formula, especially since her name wasn't MacColl.

Note that I agree with you; MacColl could surely have found a way to collect his mother's music. But it wasn't perhaps as obvious to him as it was to use.

And, by all accounts, she was a bit tough to deal with in her later years....

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl soings
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 12 Sep 26 - 07:31 PM

I too would have 'Sweet Thames" as a favourite where it not for the couplet that starts: "Kissed her once again at Wapping ......."

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl soings
From: keberoxu
Date: 12 Sep 26 - 07:56 PM

Could a Mudelf correct the spelling of "songs" in the thread title? Thanks!

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl soings
From: GUEST,Wm
Date: 12 Sep 26 - 08:15 PM

I'll throw out North Sea Holes and the Big Hewer, neither of which have been mentioned yet. Of his less folky songs, I think quite highly of The Great Conspiracy and Ring the Summer Home.

> In this case, Bronson's implication was wrong; Jimmy McBeath was later found to also sing that tune, so MacColl really did have a memory of a traditional melody.

Speculation, but to me it feels probable that MacBeath's version derives ultimately from MacColl. Lomax recorded E.M. singing the whole ballad in 1951, two years before recording two verses of it from J.M. If it was in fact a core piece of MacBeath's traditional repertoire, surely *someone* would have made a fuss about it.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl soings
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 12 Sep 26 - 08:35 PM

Wm. wrote (with regard to "Eppie Morrie"): Speculation, but to me it feels probable that MacBeath's version derives ultimately from MacColl.

Yeah, I've wondered about that too. I recall reading that someone looked into that, and J.M. said he hadn't learned it from MacColl. Of course, that's hearsay about hearsay. :-) That's why it would be better to check some of the other things MacColl claimed to have from his family.

And still, with more and more people citing favorite MacColl songs, we haven't had anyone list "First Time Ever...." Hm.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: Nick Dow
Date: 13 Sep 26 - 05:59 AM

For my money, the Shellback song is MacColl at his best. While 'The Terror Time is a great song it is not really accurate, and I must apologise for pointing this out, but the warmest place to be in the winter is in a living wagon with a Queenie stove. The bed in both a living wagon and a modern trailer is already fixed to the ground for obvious reasons, so it cannot be frozen to it. I have had to dig my way out of a camping place through snow and ended up snowed in on a car park in Skipton. We were quite warm, and not hungry in the least. We managed to get out the day after and moved on to a camping ground in Peel Lane, Blackpool, for a week or two before our permanent site reopened.
Most songs require a suspension of disbelief, so I don't have a problem with MacColl's song or any other. Still, for a Radio Ballad documentary, it should have been reconsidered alongside the others. However, I would rather have the songs as they are than not at all.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 14 Sep 26 - 02:00 PM

Ewan MacColl inherited more than 50 songs from his parents. David Stenton TSF Online Meeting 82 13 September 2026

Betsy Miller knew many traditional folk songs such as "Lord Randall" and "My Bonnie Laddie's Lang A-growing", of which her son later created written and audio recordings; he later recorded an album of traditional songs with her. Wikipedia

Betsy Miller & Ewan MacColl   •   A Garland Of Scots Folksong 1960
Betsy Miller: Vocals Ewan MacColl: Vocals Edited and annotated by Kenneth S. Goldstein. Produced by Harry Oster. Recorded by Peggy Seeger.

Most of her songs were learned from her mother during childhood, some she picked up from my father. They both had their own songs but often they would sing together, preferring long ballads for this purpose, songs like "The Duke of Athol", "The Shepherd Lad" and "The Crooked Bawbee". Ewan MacColl

Ewan MacColl sang The Braes o’ Balquither in 1964 on his and Peggy Seeger’s Folkways album Traditional Songs and Ballads. The album’s booklet noted: Learned from Betsy Henry of Auchterarder. Mainly Norfolk

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Sep 26 - 03:16 PM

Ewan MacColl inherited more than 50 songs from his parents. David Stenton TSF Online Meeting 82 13 September 2026

Betsy Miller knew many traditional folk songs such as "Lord Randall" and "My Bonnie Laddie's Lang A-growing", of which her son later created written and audio recordings; he later recorded an album of traditional songs with her. Wikipedia

Betsy Miller & Ewan MacColl   •   A Garland Of Scots Folksong 1960
Betsy Miller: Vocals Ewan MacColl: Vocals Edited and annotated by Kenneth S. Goldstein. Produced by Harry Oster. Recorded by Peggy Seeger.

Most of her songs were learned from her mother during childhood, some she picked up from my father. They both had their own songs but often they would sing together, preferring long ballads for this purpose, songs like "The Duke of Athol", "The Shepherd Lad" and "The Crooked Bawbee". Ewan MacColl

Ewan MacColl sang The Braes o’ Balquither in 1964 on his and Peggy Seeger’s Folkways album Traditional Songs and Ballads. The album’s booklet noted: Learned from Betsy Henry of Auchterarder. Mainly Norfolk
quote henry p
Yes Indeed, Traditional songs. all found in the Traditional Ballad Index.
MacColl songs, Many of which have stood the test of time.Many of his detractors are like the hurlers in the ditch, and have produced nothing memorable

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 14 Sep 26 - 03:57 PM

Bob Fox and Stu Luckley are performing North Sea Holes on their current (second reunion) tour.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: GUEST,Susanne (skw)
Date: 14 Sep 26 - 06:23 PM

the key point is that MacColl has shown himself an unreliable narrator. And once you're unreliable in one thing, you can't be trusted in any.

As any historian should know, autobiographies are never to be trusted! Some may be more reliable than others, but it's in the nature of the undertaking only to set down what you want remembered. Providing corrections to this (subjective in their own ways) keeps a lot of historians fed!

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: Nick Dow
Date: 14 Sep 26 - 07:32 PM

There's a job for you then. I'll look forward to your revision.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: Hrothgar
Date: 14 Sep 26 - 08:16 PM

Sweet Thames Flow Softly
The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face
(I might be a hopeless romantic)

The Prisoner' Song
Go Down, You Murderers

So many of the songs from the Radio Ballads are great songs, but they work better in their context rather than as individual songs.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: GerryM
Date: 14 Sep 26 - 10:47 PM

"MacColl's tell-not-much autobiography Journeyman...." I was very surprised when I read it, and found it going from 1939 straight to 1945 with no mention of anything in between. I checked the page numbers to see whether someone had ripped out a couple of chapters. On the other hand, MacColl told much more than I needed to know about his sexual difficulties in his adolescent years.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Sep 26 - 01:25 AM

This thread is about his songs

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Sep 26 - 01:28 AM

I think his legacy are his composed songs

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 15 Sep 26 - 04:18 AM

GerryM wrote: I was very surprised when I read it, and found it going from 1939 straight to 1945 with no mention of anything in between. I checked the page numbers to see whether someone had ripped out a couple of chapters.

Well, we know what he did: he deserted from the army -- a crime that, at many times and places, carried the death penalty -- and changed his name in an attempt to conceal it.

But I suspect that he also suffered from the same problem that American communists like Pete Seeger suffered: Moral and emotional turmoil about which side he "should have" been on, given the way Stalin first opposed the Nazis, then got along with them, then was in a war with them. Plus the fact that Stalin turned out to be basically just as bad. If I'd been a Bolshevik in 1939, I'd have felt pretty bad about it!

On the other hand, MacColl told much more than I needed to know about his sexual difficulties in his adolescent years.

Yes, well, most people who write autobiographies have a little too much to tell us. :-p

Keeping in mind Susanne (skw)'s comments about the unreliability of autobiographies, there can be an advantage to the author in telling something like that, because it makes the author seem willing to tell you embarrassing truths. :-) And, given what MacColl's marital history was like, some sort of trouble seemed just about guaranteed. :-)

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: Nick Dow
Date: 15 Sep 26 - 05:25 AM

I had no idea that he deserted. Robert, you are a fountain of information! Does anybody know whether he deserted for political reasons, given that he wrote the song 'Stalin was a fine man'? I cannot understand why he would want to leave an army fighting against a fascist Germany. Was his desertion before the Russian anti-Hitler stance?
I feel this is important for our understanding of his later songwriting. I know he changed his political allegiance to a pro-China view. This thread has been an education for me.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: Nick Dow
Date: 15 Sep 26 - 05:42 AM

Toppermost quoted this answer.

'This is a rather murky period in his career, but it has been suggested that MI5 may have encouraged him to desert. The suggestion is that they did so rather than have the open scandal of acknowledging that they had let a known ‘red’ join in the ranks. Of course, these events took place before the Soviet Union altered its attitude towards war effort after the German army invaded it in June 1941.'

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 15 Sep 26 - 05:44 AM

It's difficult to keep Ewan MacColl's songs separate from his life. Previous threads have brought out much stronger feelings and proved very divisive! This thread has proceeded very calmly so far. Let's hope it continues like that.

The revealing play 'Joan and Jimmy' was written by Jim Woodland and produced by Mike Bettinson in 2019. Mike Bettison said: “In 'Joan and Jimmy', we see Joan Littlewood and Jimmy Miller, standing among the rubble of 1945 post war Britain. Jimmy Miller has changed his name to Ewan MacColl; and both are embarking on a career in radical political theatre, performing one-night stands across the north of England – early rural touring.”

They founded Theatre Workshop, in Kendal, with a travelling troupe of storytellers and outlaws committed to the overthrow of the established order where the rich got richer and the poor got austerity. In 1952 they would part company – Joan heading to London with Theatre Workshop and Ewan moving on to the folk music world.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 15 Sep 26 - 07:53 AM

In answer to Nick Dow: I unfortunately cannot recall my sources on this, so I can neither verify my memory nor document it. But this is what I remember:

MacColl hated the army, and he was a Communist, and this was (I think) 1940, when the Soviet Union was in alliance with the Nazis. So he felt no loyalty to the British Army, and he didn't like being there. So he deserted.

I don't think he was actually encouraged to desert. Britain desperately needed soldiers. Rather, they didn't make any effort to bring him back. Did the authorities know where he was? Almost certainly. Could they have brought him in? Yes. And then what? Either they put him back in the ranks, in which case his ideas might affect those around him, or they have to try him and make them look like thought police, or else they lock him up, which means they need to feed and guard him. Why pay money to guard him when a free MacColl would either work or starve.

So they probably knew where he was but didn't track him down.

The United States in a way did the same with Pete Seeger. Seeger didn't desert, but the Army didn't trust him, so they gave him special jobs that actually suited his skills. Almost certainly a better answer -- but Seeger's talents were more obvious than Jimmy Miller's.

Another point about MacColl's politics and his songwriting and his handling of traditional materials: remember that he recorded with A. L. Lloyd -- and Lloyd was another Communist, who certainly didn't take much care with the songs he collected/recorded. Did some of that rub off?

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: Nick Dow
Date: 15 Sep 26 - 08:53 AM

Thank you, Henry and Bob. I am a mere 74 years old and as a youngster, MacColl was a giant figure. I knew none of his past, just the lightbulb moment of his 'Song Carrier' programmes. I caught up with them in the 1970's. I played the tapes over and over again. It went over the head of my then-girlfriend, and amazingly, most of my friends. It was not until I was much older that I found like-minded people. This is why this thread is desirable to me, and I hope others. So I have taken on board Henry's plea for peace. It is sometimes hard to acknowledge that your heroes have feet of clay. Back to the songs as Dick suggested.
Here's a contentious thought. Has anybody noticed the similarity between the melody for 'The Shellback Song ' and the air for 'The Shores of Americay'? However, it's still my favourite song.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 15 Sep 26 - 09:59 AM

You can read a brief account of Jimmy Miller's time in the army on the Wikipedia site for Ewan MacColl.

And there's an interesting Mudcat thread; Origins: 'Browned Off' (Ewan MacColl)

Or you can Google Ewan MacColl in the army and see what AI has to say about it! It's difficult to determine what really happened.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 15 Sep 26 - 11:14 AM

Nick Dow wrote: So I have taken on board Henry's plea for peace. It is sometimes hard to acknowledge that your heroes have feet of clay.

This isn't going back to the songs, but it's a general philosophical point: MacColl's desertion doesn't bother me deeply -- even though I value loyalty a lot, he clearly wasn't going to work out there. To me personally, his relationships with women were more bothersome.

But those are small things, in the sense that they only involved a few people. And the fact that he came to folk music slowly is perhaps unfortunate but not his fault. I think, in the long run, he did this music a great service.

Many names in this field have some pretty black marks on them. Thomas Percy was the first to really bring folk songs to broader attention -- but he did it by rewriting them to death. Joseph Ritson correctly felt that editors should not rewrite -- but he was perfectly willing to re-interpret to make things come out his way. (Were it not for him, we would probably know the Robin Hood legend in a much more traditional form.) Woody Guthrie was often appalling to those around him. So... yes, nil nisi bonum. Let's remember MacColl for the radio ballads, or for singing songs that might not otherwise be sung (hey, I like "Eppie Morrie" in overdrive -- if you want my favorite MacColl song, it might be that, not one of the ones he wrote), and for helping us realize that there were still songs to be collected. He certainly paid his dues along the way....

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: Nick Dow
Date: 15 Sep 26 - 11:45 AM

Nil nisi bonum do not speak ill of the dead. I have not had a great deal of formal education so anything I know I have had to teach myself. I took myself off to college to learn signwriting, but even then I had to wait until I was 39 to get the opportunity. Steve Gardham has been an excellent teacher and has endless patience when I get it wrong.
MacColl was also a great teacher when it came to singing and this for me is an important legacy as well as his songs.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Sep 26 - 02:09 PM

I must jump in here. First of all my relationship with Nick is one of two equals throwing each other's knowledge and skills into the pot. He has a much better turn of phrase than I have and his musical knowledge leaves me in the shade. We very much complement each other when working together on our books.

Bob, just about all of these people being damned were very much of their time. Percy was operating within the British mid-17thc literati and you were condemned if you didn't 'improve' whatever came to hand in the way of older material. MacColl was not in a sphere of ballad researchers in the 1940s, and Bert likewise. They were both very much self-taught men. There was no-one around on the British folk scene at that time to advise them not to tamper.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 15 Sep 26 - 02:45 PM

Steve Gardham wrote: Bob, just about all of these people being damned were very much of their time. Percy was operating within the British mid-17thc literati and you were condemned if you didn't 'improve' whatever came to hand in the way of older material. MacColl was not in a sphere of ballad researchers in the 1940s, and Bert likewise. They were both very much self-taught men. There was no-one around on the British folk scene at that time to advise them not to tamper.

I notice you didn't defend Guthrie's sanitary habits. :-p

Please keep in mind that I said "nil nisi bonum." And at least tried to demonstrate "not much except bonum." :-)

Recall that in an earlier post I pointed out that MacColl didn't come from an academic background. Every person I named did regrettable things -- and every one of them did a positive that was greater than the negative: Percy got people interested in folk song. Ritson got them interested in Robin Hood, and in precise preservation. MacColl and Lloyd reminded us that folk music is music of the folk, not some excessively learned stuff. All of their errors can be corrected, and most of them have. (Sadly, Ritson's placing of Robin Hood in the reign of Richard I rather than the time of the Three Edwards still persists....) What I meant to say, and obviously failed to get across, was the idea that you can do much good even while causing some problems along the way. I assumed the good would be obvious....

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Sep 26 - 03:04 PM

Ewan is not one of my heroes, in fact in 1969, I decided to avoid the singers club,
However I did a support for Ewan and Peggy, there was an audience of about 500 people, I Thought their presentation was well planned, professional, entertaining and very enjoyable, the song i remember particularly from that night was Englands Motorways
I booked them twice at a folk club I ran and they did a great evening on both occasions.
On another occasion , they were very helpful with research, these are the positives I remember.
What is the point of dwelling on the negatives, negativity produces negativity
He is not a hero of mine, but I think he was a fine songwriter and a professional and entertaining performer, he also played an important role with others in the uk folk revival. I beliece in giving credit where it is due
Tom Paxton is also a fine songwriter

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Sep 26 - 03:17 PM

On the subject of similar tunes Sweet Thames and RecruIted collier, did Bert take it from Ewan?
Constructive Critism is a positive
MacColl, tried to help others, i think his intentions were good but he was not [imo] very diplomatic I think he led the revival better than any of his predecessors.
It was the influence[imo] of an American Alan Lomax, that influenced his policy at the singers club, and influenced many people to seek out our own traditional music, and influenced a friend of mine to collect from traditional singers like Harry Cox. hEwan did a lot of good but he was not a hero of mine.
I preferred the singing of lizzie Higgins HARRY COX, jEANIE rOBERTSON etc, but he directed us to them

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: GUEST,The Sandman
Date: 15 Sep 26 - 04:19 PM

I cannot understand why he would want to leave an army fighting against a fascist Germany. Was his desertion before the Russian anti-Hitler stance? quote Nick Dow
As i understood from my Dad, who was an active Communist, the official line the British Communist party took, from the Soviet Union was that this was a capitalist, imperialist war and not their concern, Germany invaded the soviet union in 1941 and that changed matters

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: Nick Dow
Date: 15 Sep 26 - 06:58 PM

There were a lot of people in the UK who believed we should have remained neutral. My birth father was in a labour camp at the time his wife was in a C.C. She died, and he met my mother when he was posted to the UK. Not a black-and-white decision for anybody, so I never judge; I just have difficulty understanding a favouring of party lines against a personal reality. MacColls' songs dealt with that personal reality.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 15 Sep 26 - 07:19 PM

Jimmy Miller/Ewan MacColl was called up at Wathgill Camp, Richmond in July 1940. He left the army in December 1940 in mysterious circumstances. He is generally reported to have deserted or gone AWOL, but there does not seem to have been a determined effort to recall or charge him. In an interview in June 1987, he said that he was expelled for "anti-fascist activity" (Wikipedia).

Joan Littlewood recalled that, when they were performing a play about military desertion after the war in Ormesby (close to where he had been stationed), MacColl was briefly arrested, after being recognised locally, and moved to an army detention barracks at Northallerton before being released after a few days (Wikipedia).

His reason may have been personal. Joan Littlewood also wrote that he wrote to her regularly to say how much he hated life in the army at Richmond, and that he announced his change of name when she greeted him back at Manchester railway station (Wikipedia). His reason may have been political; the Communist Party did not support the war against the Axis powers until Nazi Germany invaded the Soviet Union on June 22, 1941.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: GUEST,The Sandman
Date: 16 Sep 26 - 02:00 AM

Mosley and Reynell Bellamy [Fascists were much more of a threat and because of this were interred] Edward the 8 partner Wallis Simppson definitely was a nazi sympathiser
My father and other communists did not join the war until 1941, At that time they were not aware of Stalins murders, remember conmunication was not as quick, as it is now

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: GUEST,The Sandman
Date: 16 Sep 26 - 02:26 AM

Daily Mail was a supporter of Mosley

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 26 - 02:49 AM

Nick, i n relation to his songs people can modify their views and change.
re, a previous post Reynell Bellamy was Peter Bellamys father

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: GUEST,The Sandman
Date: 16 Sep 26 - 03:55 AM

guest above, was me

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: Nick Dow
Date: 16 Sep 26 - 04:11 AM

Of course. That is the point I was making.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Sep 26 - 04:42 PM

This has been said many times and perhaps it doesn't need saying so much nowadays. From a performer's point of view the contributions made by Ewan and Bert are enormous and beyond dispute and far outweigh any misdemeanours. From a researcher's point of view there are still areas where people can be misled into thinking all of their folksong contributions were taken directly from oral tradition, and this is patently not the case. We should be able to discuss both aspects without reproachment.
In the case of Percy, the vast bulk of what he published we can now look at the sources, not so much of items that were sent to him. There is strong evidence that much of the material in Child is suspect to say the least. The problem is we don't know how extensive the forgery was, and the likelihood is we will never know.

Bob, I didn't mention Woody as I know very little about him.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 26 - 11:57 AM

The Lag's Song, particularly John Francis Flynn's version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkSAUewx038

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 17 Sep 26 - 02:49 PM

> Sadly, Ritson's placing of Robin Hood in the reign of
> Richard I rather than the time of the Three Edwards still
> persists....

So Robin Hood being shown using a longbow isn't an anachronism after all. Thanks for the correction, Robert.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 17 Sep 26 - 03:36 PM

MaJoC the Filk wrote: So Robin Hood being shown using a longbow isn't an anachronism after all. Thanks for the correction, Robert.

The Robin Hood legend probably dates back to the thirteenth century, and there were "rhymes of Robin Hood" mentioned by Langland in the fourteenth. We can't know what the earliest legend looked like. We should note that the earliest mention of Robin simply calls him (in modern language) a highwayman, not a bowman.

But the earliest extant Robin Hood sources that actually do more than mention his name are three romances included among the Child Ballads: Robin Hood and the Monk (Child 119), Robin Hood and the Potter (Child 121), and -- most important of all -- The Gest of Robyn Hode (Child 117). All date to the fifteenth century, although the earliest printed copies of the "Gest" are probably from the early sixteenth. The "Gest" was extremely popular -- we have eight editions from before 1600, and there were (e.g.) only ten editions of Chaucer in that time.

The "Gest" is the first account of Robin meeting and being forgiven by the king -- and the king is explicitly named "Edward." It doesn't say which Edward, and we really can't be sure. But the best historical fit, for a whole bunch of reasons, is Edward II. In fact, we can give a pretty precise chronological framework -- Robin meets Edward II in 1322/1323, goes to the King's court for a year in 1323-1324, returns to the Greenwood, and is murdered there 22 years later (says the "Gest"), so in the year 1346.

I am not (not, NOT, NOT!) saying this is true. There was no "real Robin Hood," or at least no one such man. The "Gest" should be treated as historical fiction. But that historical fiction was very influential, and it was set in the reign one of the three Edwards, i.e. 1272-1377.

I could talk at extraordinary length, given that I just finished a monster book on the topic. :-) But I will refer you to Episode 70 of the In the Roud podcast, or to my thread on mudcat, "Origins: The Gest of Robyn Hode [Child 117]," https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=174991&messages=18, or to the book itself, which is a free download from the Ballad Index Library http://balladindex.org/BalladIndexLibrary/BalladIndexLibrary.html.

I won't answer more questions here, but if anyone has any, I'll happily take them on in the thread on the "Gest." At this moment, having read every single semi-legible copy three times, I probably know it better than anyone in the world. And had the eyestrain to prove it. :-p

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: GUEST,Susanne (skw)
Date: 17 Sep 26 - 06:19 PM

Going back to Ewan MacColl - anyone with time on his or her hands could take a look at Joan's Book, a hefty volume of Joan Littlewood's memories and no more reliable as history than Journeyman but a much more entertaining read ...

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 18 Sep 26 - 04:20 AM

The trouble, I found, with Journeyman is that it gives a relatively detailed account of his early life and sexual encounters which is followed by an obvious hole in the which omits the WW2 years.

Anyone interested in these should sign up for a free account with the National Archives and download Miller/MacColl’s MI5 files.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 23 Sep 26 - 04:37 PM

If you can access "Class Act" by Ben Harker it gives a bit more of an insight to MacColl's war years.
BTW my favourite of his songs is "Sweet Thames Flow Softly" although "Looking For a Job" is seriously realistic.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: GUEST,The Sandman
Date: 24 Sep 26 - 02:22 AM

his legacy[imo, are the songs.   not his name change, or his rules for the singers club, or his war years. or even his plays.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Sep 26 - 02:25 AM

I agree with Sandman’s. Everyone knows about his personality defects and the other things people use as a stick to beat his memory. None of us is perfect, let the man lie in peace, and let’s celebrate his songs.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Sep 26 - 06:35 AM

By ‘he’ and ‘his’, I’m referring to MacColl, of course.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: GUEST,GHawes
Date: 27 Sep 26 - 06:23 AM

Backwoodsman, Sandman, let me ask just why you would wish to sanitise MacColl’s memory? That makes for a triumph of hagiography over history (which, I suggest, is counter to the thrust of “the folk revival”). As time passes and there are increasingly few of us around who met/heard MacColl, I don’t think we can reasonably assume that “everyone knows” about the negative aspects of the man. Therefore Insuggest every discussion of him needs to reflect both the positives and the negatives. Given his undoubted (but, nevertheless, often overstated!) importance, increasingly “people” - both from within the folk world and beyond it - will come looking to discover more about him with no prior knowledge of what a frustratingly contradictory man he was!

Hopefully I’ll shortly find time to put together a more constructive - but longer - contribution to this thread; for the moment suffice to say that Ewan and Peggy were the first folk performers I ever heard, aged 16, and they hooked me for life ..

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: Nick Dow
Date: 27 Sep 26 - 07:17 AM

We will look forward to that! I think. Meanwhile when you have finished looking up the meaning of Hagiography any more thoughts on the songs?

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Sep 26 - 07:58 AM

Don’t know who this ‘we’ is that you’re referring to Nick, but it doesn’t include me, and I’d prefer you to speak for yourself. I’d also suggest sticking to the subject of the thread - favourite songs of Ewan MacColl - and let the shit-rakers start their own shit-raking thread, rather than stinking up this one.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: Nick Dow
Date: 27 Sep 26 - 08:59 AM

Nice! :-(

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 26 - 09:12 AM

i do not not wish to sanitise his memory,somewhere on MUDCAT , I have already related my first encounter with Ewan. but I think he was a fine songwriter he also played a very important part in the uk folk revival, Both of them were very polished, professional and entertaining performers
Positivity brings positive karma, negtivity brings negative karma , that is my current philosophy

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Sep 26 - 09:17 AM

”I do not wish to sanitise his memory…I think he was a fine songwriter he also played a very important part in the uk folk revival, Both of them were very polished, professional and entertaining performers”

Thanks Sandman, I agree.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: GUEST,GUEST, GHawes
Date: 27 Sep 26 - 05:38 PM

BTW, Sandman,The Traveling People was the last of the (original) Radio Ballads, so it’s certainly less groundbreaking. The first of them was “The Ballad of John Axon”, in 1957. The third, “Singing the Fishing”, was the most critically successful, winning the Prix d'Italia for radio documentary in October 1960.
For a good overview see https://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/radioballads/original/

Topic later released the entire series on CD.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: GUEST,GHawes
Date: 28 Sep 26 - 05:35 PM

Hagiography: “(an) overly flattering or idealized account that treats its subject as flawless and puts them on a pedestal”, precisely what I meant.
Backwoodsman, sorry you feel truth equates to shit … although I very largely agree with Sandman’s description of MacColl. One of the reasons I think it’s important for any discussion of MacColl to include the “issues” around him is that they are often more nuanced than how they’re often presented; for example his oft-castigated/misrepresented Singers Club policy did much to shift focus from the US onto the traditions and repertoire of the UK, and his (and Bert’s) readiness to “improve” words and tunes they heard from “source” singers is IMO very much the “folk process” living on!

However, in deference to the topic of this thread, I’d have to nominate “Sweet Thames”, as it’s what stuck with me most strongly from that first encounter, and “Ballad of Accounting” for continuing to seem as sadly relevant at last week’s hearing as it was the first time I heard it. But can I also include “Shoals of Herring” in its original Singing the Fishing version (with the interspersed “actuality” recordings) as a bonus track.
If I write at more length I’ll hopefully remember to relate MacColl’s account of singing that back to Sam Larner - although Backwoodsman might find that doing so stinks …

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: Nick Dow
Date: 28 Sep 26 - 08:11 PM

I, for one, will not be engaging with Backwoodsman again after his behaviour above, and will ignore any posts from him here.
The Sam Larner connection is very interesting. I think it was Tom Brown who told me that MacColl used Sam's pacing and singing to write 'The Shoals of Herring', and when Sam heard it, he said, 'I've known that song all my life!' I don't know if it's true, but it's a great story.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 28 Sep 26 - 10:15 PM

Nick Dow wrote: I think it was Tom Brown who told me that MacColl used Sam's pacing and singing to write 'The Shoals of Herring', and when Sam heard it, he said, 'I've known that song all my life!' I don't know if it's true, but it's a great story.

I obviously can't verify the story either, but it is found in Journeyman, p. 313. So it can at least be documented. :-)

MacColl on p. 312 of the book described how difficult it was to write, but then came together in fifteen minutes once he finally managed to get started.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Sep 26 - 11:14 PM

I, for one, will not be engaging with Backwoodsman again after his behaviour above, and will ignore any posts from him here.

I can live perfectly happily with that.

My ‘behaviour’ was simply to ask that posters stick to the thread subject, ‘Favourite Ewan MacColl Songs”, and to start a separate thread if they wish to rake over the personal history of someone long dead and not around to defend himself. I stand by that.

If you find that offends your seemingly delicate sensibilities, it’s your problem, not mine.

Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 29 Sep 26 - 05:01 AM

It's difficult to keep Ewan MacColl's songs separate from his life. Previous threads have brought out much stronger feelings and proved very divisive! This thread has proceeded very calmly so far. Let's hope it continues like that.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 29 Sep 26 - 08:03 AM

I was surprised to see, on Aistear an Amhrán how instrumental he was in how The Auld Triangle gained the popularity it has today.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: Nick Dow
Date: 29 Sep 26 - 10:16 AM

I don't think you can separate the man from his songs. My only complaint is the accuracy of some details in the songs; I have posted about that. I actively dislike some, and I am surprised he allowed others to be recorded. The one whose title escapes me that concerns Tebbutt and his 'Get on your bike' speech is uglier than the speech itself, IMHO. I am racking my brains to find any songwriter to equal his best songs, though. I think his studio production choices were questionable. The annoying clarinet player, for a start, and the unedited false start to the 'Shellback song are careless.
Have we produced a songwriter to equal or rival him within the genre?

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 29 Sep 26 - 12:08 PM

Nick Dow wrote: Have we produced a songwriter to equal or rival him within the genre?

This is a serious question: how do you define "equalling him"? Is it by number of great songs, or number of songs that are remembered? And what genre are we speaking of? If you want someone with more songs that have lasted through many years, there is Stephen C. Foster. Were I asked to name someone whose songs speak to me more, I'd say Gordon Bok. (Personal choice only.)

But if one wishes to name someone active in the period since (let's say) 1950 who has produced more songs that are memorable and sound like they belong in the British folk tradition (which might be your meaning, though I'm not sure) -- then I, at least, can't think of anyone to rival him.

Of course there are a lot of crummy songs, too, but that's just Sturgeon's Law. Most songwriters produce plenty of garbage without producing any gems. :-p

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: Nick Dow
Date: 29 Sep 26 - 12:15 PM

Yes I can understand that. I suppose I meant the British folk Tradition. In that context, I will join you in a blank mind for a rival.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Sep 26 - 12:19 PM

I would agree with Nick and Bob, writing songs in the traditional idiom, he has not been surpassed in my opinion. There are many great songs now on the scene, but no-one else has produced so many memorable ones. He has been the main inspiration in my own writing of what I would call 'heritage songs'.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 02 Oct 26 - 03:15 PM

What do Ewan MacColl and Harry H Corbett have in common?

They both grew up in Salford/Manchester.
They both deserted from the armed forces.
They both changed their professional names.
They were fellow members of the Theatre Workshop in Manchester in 1951 - though Harry followed Joan Littlewood to the Theatre Royal in Stratford.
They both appeared on the album "The Singing Sailor" (Topic Records TRL3, 1954/55) - with AL Lloyd and Alf Edwards - reissued as "Blow the Man Down A Collection of Sea Songs and Shanties Topic Records TSCD464, 1993)

But I don't think that Ewan MacColl ever killed anyone in hand-to-hand fighting. And I don't suppose that MI5 kept a file on Harry H Corbett.

When Harry H Corbett was invited to play the part of Harold Steptoe, a rag and bone man in a one-off BBC comedy, he was appearing as Macbeth at the Bristol Old Vic. He went on to make an album of folk and music hall songs "Only Authorised Employees To Break Bottles" (Ra Records RALP 6022, 1974), accompanied by the folk band Faraway Folk. (The title comes from a notice seen in the film "The Bargee".) He included the comic music hall song "The Night I First Played My Macbeth". Harry H Corbett was included in the 1976 New Year Honours, along with the Sooty puppeteer Harry Corbett.

You can't make this stuff up! See Wikipedia and https://downstairslounge.wordpress.com/2016/09/14/harry-h-corbett-break-bottles/

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: Nick Dow
Date: 02 Oct 26 - 07:54 PM

Corbett was a drastically underrated actor, wasted in Steptoe. MacColl was not a particularly talented actor, but his script work was excellent, though others disagree. A cast member from a well-known soap opera turned up at a Folk night we were running in a Lancashire pub. He recited a part from a play written by MacColl and blew the room apart with his performance.
I am a lover of stage and TV actors generally, and have done a bit of T.V myself.  I could list several pages of wasted actors forced to take second-rate roles to earn a living.
In this respect, we are very lucky on the Folk Scene; we have a ready-made, respectful audience that allows performers to learn and grow in public. That is in part due to MacColl. There are songwriters inspired by MacColl who have penned some excellent songs. Alan Bell, Don Bilston, Billy Bragg, and many others.
By the way, you would be surprised how many actors are lovers of Folk.
The late Geoffrey Hughes, Dominic Brunt (I've backed his mandolin playing on Guitar), Lynne Miller, Dai Bradley and Warren Clarke (I think). There is mutual respect in the performing arts championed by MacColl, and long may it continue.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 02 Oct 26 - 09:05 PM

Nick Dow wrote: By the way, you would be surprised how many actors are lovers of Folk.

And, in the United States, Theodore Bikel. Arlo Guthrie has some theatrical credits, too. I'm sure others will know more than I; going to the theatre alone isn't much fun, so I never did it much. :-)

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: GerryM
Date: 02 Oct 26 - 10:46 PM

Speaking of US folkies with acting credentials, here's what Wikipedia says about Burl Ives:

Ives's Broadway career included appearances in The Boys from Syracuse (1938–39), Heavenly Express (1940), This Is the Army (1942), Sing Out, Sweet Land (1944), Paint Your Wagon (1951–52), and Dr. Cook's Garden (1967). His most notable Broadway performance (later reprised in a 1958 movie) was as "Big Daddy" Pollitt in Cat on a Hot Tin Roof (1955–56).

Alan Arkin's acting career overshadowed his early folkie days. Appealing again to Wikipedia:

He started his career in the 1950s as a singer and guitarist in the folk group, The Tarriers. They had two hits in 1956–7: "Cindy, Oh Cindy" and "Day-O (The Banana Boat Song)". They performed the latter in the 1957 musical movie, Calypso Heat Wave, and sang "Choucoune" in this too. Arkin went on to sing with another folk group, The Baby Sitters.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: GerryM
Date: 02 Oct 26 - 10:51 PM

If your definition of folk music stretches to bluegrass, here's actor and comedian Steve Martin:

Martin has played banjo since an early age and has included music in his comedy routines from the beginning of his professional career. He has released several music albums and has performed with various bluegrass acts. He has won three Grammy Awards for his music....

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 26 - 03:56 AM

Arriving in Greenwich Village in Manhattan in 1951, Tom and Paddy Clancy established themselves as successful Broadway and Off-Broadway actors. They also made several television appearances. The two brothers created their own production company, Trio Productions, which led to the start of their professional singing careers. To help raise money for the company, Paddy and Tom organised late-night concerts of folk songs called the 'Swapping Song Fair' (later renamed the 'Midnight Special') every Saturday night at the Cherry Lane Theatre, which they were renting at the time to produce Irish plays. Here they would sing some of the old Irish songs that they knew from their childhood. Some well-known folk singers, including Pete Seeger, Woody Guthrie, and Jean Ritchie, also participated in these concerts. At this time, younger brother Bobby Clancy briefly emigrated to New York City, joining his brothers in Greenwich Village. This was the little-known, first 'unofficial' line-up of singing Clancy brothers. In 1955, Bobby returned home to Carrick-on-Suir to take over father Robert J. Clancy's insurance business, freeing youngest brother Liam Clancy to emigrate to New York City to pursue his dream of acting. Liam arrived in New York in January 1956. Wikipedia

In the UK, the sixties folk clubs fostered a generation of singers who extended their careers as comedians and actors - Mike Harding, Jasper Carrot, Max Boyce, Fred Wedlock, Mike Elliot, Dave Turner...The most successful of them was Billy Connolly.

Connolly made the transition from folk singer with a comedic persona to fully fledged comedian, for which he became best known. In 1972, he made his theatrical debut, at the Cottage Theatre in Cumbernauld, with a revue called Connolly's Glasgow Flourish. Connolly appeared in various films, including Mrs Brown (1997), for which he was nominated for the BAFTA Award for Best Actor in a Leading Role. Wikipedia

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 03 Oct 26 - 04:13 AM

Apologies, Dick. The thread does seem to have taken a rather dramatic turn. And nobody has mentioned John Tams yet!

Perhaps we should continue on the stage names thread. Or start a new thread for the political activities of folk singers.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: Nick Dow
Date: 03 Oct 26 - 05:40 AM

My fault! I was just making a wider appreciation of MacColl's writing abilities.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 03 Oct 26 - 06:00 AM

Re Captain Swing’s post on 12th Sept:
“I too would have 'Sweet Thames" as a favourite were it not for the couplet that starts: "Kissed her once again at Wapping ......."

I always have a wee nostalgic giggle at that point, as I remember a Sunday afternoon in 1964 spent in the park at Wapping with a former boyfriend! And yes, he did kiss me, but it stopped right there! So I love that verse!

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 03 Oct 26 - 07:48 AM

This diversion has revealed some of the performers who began their careers in the folk clubs and continued their careers in drama and other arts.

We are enjoying the inheritance of all the singers and musicians who kept traditional music and songs alive, and the artists like Ewan MacColl who extended the tradition into contemporary works. Just as you said, Nick, we are very lucky on the Folk Scene; we have a ready-made, respectful audience that allows performers to learn and grow in public.

As far as I know, folk clubs rarely receive grants. They rely on the contributions of their members and, of course, the efforts of their organisers. Without local clubs, young people would have limited access to the old tunes and songs, and young musicians and singers would have fewer opportunities to make their first performances. We would be a much poorer society without them.

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Oct 26 - 09:29 AM

oh Tattie , how naughty, was he singing in a high voice after you stopped him, or had he been eating garlic

Subject: RE: Favourite Ewan MacColl songs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Oct 26 - 12:52 PM

A-a-and….100