TRADTIONAL SONGS I would not sing

Subject: TRADTIONAL SONGS I would not sing
From: GUEST,The Sandman
Date: 22 Sep 26 - 07:28 AM

1 Hugh of Lincoln 2 The Wheelbarrow song. does anyone have any Traditional song they would not sing, and for what reasons
the wheel barrow song sung by notts county fans https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1755038988865968.
The first because it is anti semetic, The second because it is Banal

Subject: RE: TRADTIONAL SONGS I would not sing
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 22 Sep 26 - 07:48 AM

I think that's why traditional folk songs are on the decline,Dick.
21st century thinking will not embrace the subjects of so many traditional songs.
Whaling, hunting, songs now considered sexist. Songs about incest, infanticide etc.
I noticed when Martin Carthy sang 'Limbo' he left the last verse out,

'I hadn’t been there for a very long time
When my pockets they fell a-picking,
I banged them as long as my cane I could hold
Until they fell coughing and kicking.
Then one cried out “Murder!”, the other did scold;
I banged them as long as my cane I could hold.
I banged their old bodies for the good of their soul
And paid them for laying me in Limbo'.

Subject: RE: TRADTIONAL SONGS I would not sing
From: GUEST,The Sandman
Date: 22 Sep 26 - 10:37 AM

Songs about whaling, do not necessarily glorify it, they can illustrate the horror of it, and the attitude Of the time that resources were finite , Coasts of Peru is an example of a whaling song that does just that AND in my opinion is a reason why it should be sung

Subject: RE: TRADTIONAL SONGS I would not sing
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 26 - 11:08 AM

Some traditional songs and ballads need to be contextualised before they are sung and Whaling songs are a good example. The introduction needs to clarify why they are being sung; not to promote or glorify this obscene industry, but to explain the historical interest and to emphasise the fact that they almost all have good lyrics and tunes. Most also point out the horrors of the trade. Rape and murder are also fairly common in traditional and they also need to be presented with an approporiate sensitivity.

Subject: RE: TRADTIONAL SONGS I would not sing
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 22 Sep 26 - 11:26 AM

You're right of course Guest. That's what I do when singing a Whaling song. I also mention that Norway and Japan carry on this horrendous trade to this day.
I still think people are put off from singing these songs because as you say they don't contextualise them. The end result is they're not sung as often.

Subject: RE: TRADTIONAL SONGS I would not sing
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Sep 26 - 11:07 PM

anything that mentions "yellow" girls in a demeaning way.

Subject: RE: TRADTIONAL SONGS I would not sing
From: The Og
Date: 25 Sep 26 - 11:56 AM

I will NEVER sing "Strange Fruit"?

Subject: RE: TRADTIONAL SONGS I would not sing
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 26 - 12:03 PM

"Strange Fruit" was written by American teacher, poet, and songwriter Abel Meeropol (who published it under the pseudonym Lewis Allan).He originally wrote it as a poem titled "Bitter Fruit" in 1937 to protest the lynching of African Americans, and later added the musical melody himself. The song became globally famous after it was first recorded by Billie Holiday in 1939.
It is not Trad.

Subject: RE: TRADTIONAL SONGS I would not sing
From: gillymor
Date: 25 Sep 26 - 12:24 PM

I quit singing Poor Ellen Smith because the first verse creeps me out. Frank Proffit's Tom Dooley has a similar effect on me but I just leave out the creepy verse in that one.

Subject: RE: TRADTIONAL SONGS I would not sing
From: meself
Date: 25 Sep 26 - 03:47 PM

Any of that family of songs that mock women who use artificial limbs and other prosthetics. Any songs with 'humour' that depends on the physical appearance of women.

Subject: RE: TRADTIONAL SONGS I would not sing
From: Paul Burke
Date: 25 Sep 26 - 06:00 PM

"Strange Fruit" was written by American teacher, poet, and songwriter Abel Meeropol ... It is not Trad.

This raises the interesting subject of what is, and what is not, "trad". Well, we know which talented but troubled troll wrote this response. But some many moons ago, I jibed at somebody describing theirself as a "composer of traditional music". Oy, if you've just composed it, how can it be "traditional". And a whole host of people told me that it was in the right style, and therefore traditional.

In short, bugger all that shite. In a dynamic culture, you're never going to get a static definition.

And, Dick, please stop playing Hide & Seek.

Subject: RE: TRADTIONAL SONGS I would not sing
From: GerryM
Date: 25 Sep 26 - 06:26 PM

meself, do you also object to songs whose humor depends on the physical appearance of men? Like Three-Legged Man, written by Shel Silverstein, recorded by The Chad Mitchell Trio and many others? https://allpoetry.com/Three-Legged-Man

Subject: RE: TRADTIONAL SONGS I would not sing
From: GerryM
Date: 25 Sep 26 - 06:31 PM

And before anyone calls me out on it, yes, I know Three-Legged Man is not a traditional song.

Subject: RE: TRADTIONAL SONGS I would not sing
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Sep 26 - 06:52 PM

What has tradition to do with it?

If the issue is the non-performance of objectionable songs, it shouldn't matter if they're "traditional" or not.

Should it?

Subject: RE: TRADTIONAL SONGS I would not sing
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 25 Sep 26 - 08:08 PM

Lighter wrote: What has tradition to do with it?

I would argue that tradition has a lot to do with it. Were "The Jew's Daughter" or "The Wee Cooper of Fife" not traditional, I would have absolutely nothing to do with them. As it is, I don't sing them.

But "The Jew's Daughter" has an historical significance. The blood libel legend is old, old, old, and occurs in a lot of forms -- the most famous is Chaucer's "Prioress's Tale." But Carleton Brown had almost three dozen distinct forms.

Most of those forms are literary; many are not in English. Many exist in single copies only. Most do not seem to have survived the Middle Ages.

"The Jew's Daughter" is traditional, and it is common, and it remained in use until very recently. Thus it is strong evidence of the survival of the blood libel legend in modern times.

Would I sing it in ordinary company. Absolutely, positively, certainly not. Would I do scholarly work on it? Yes, in the right context -- e.g. to describe how anti-Semitism survived until recently; we even see new anti-Semitic songs being written. (See "Mary Phagan.")

Disgusting as "The Jew's Daughter" is, it has genuine historical significance.

Subject: RE: TRADTIONAL SONGS I would not sing
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 25 Sep 26 - 08:54 PM

back in the days before covid when a group of young singers started a shanty session they would always begin with a disclaimer - words to the effect that singing about whaling doesn't mean we support it - these are historical songs, then off we'd go raising the rafters!

Subject: RE: TRADTIONAL SONGS I would not sing
From: meself
Date: 26 Sep 26 - 01:30 AM

GerryM: I couldn't for the life of me think of any trad. songs mocking male appearance, so considered the point moot. With more thinking, I can vaguely recall a song I never learned which has a woman talking about how small her husband is, but it doesn't seem to express any contempt or animus; it's just a bit of cartoonish nonsense that I don't imagine would bother any man, no matter how diminutive.

Let's see ... There's Capt. Conrod, walking "on the quarter-deck smoking his pipe,/With his face griddled up like an old piece of tripe" - no, I don't have a problem singing that ... !

Subject: RE: TRADTIONAL SONGS I would not sing
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Sep 26 - 01:51 AM

Paul Burke, I started this thread specifically to discuss trad songs. What is the point of somebody mentioning a non trad song and then not even saying, why they would not sing it.
if they wish to do so why not start a thread aboUt pop songs, I would not sing, or country songs i would not sing, or jazz songs, I would not sing.
iS everything traditional now?

Subject: RE: TRADTIONAL SONGS I would not sing
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Sep 26 - 01:58 AM

I am perfectly happy to sing other songs that are not trad, but i do recognise the difference between a song I have written myself and a traditional song, Is this suddenly tradtional
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7ghcM_m2XQ

Subject: RE: TRADTIONAL SONGS I would not sing
From: GerryM
Date: 26 Sep 26 - 02:33 AM

meself, there's Me Husband's Got No Courage In Him, though it doesn't mock the man's appearance, just his performance. Similarly, Never Wed an Old Man.

Subject: RE: TRADTIONAL SONGS I would not sing
From: GUEST,The Sandman
Date: 26 Sep 26 - 02:42 AM

I was thinking of the same two, Gerry

Subject: RE: TRADTIONAL SONGS I would not sing
From: meself
Date: 26 Sep 26 - 02:48 PM

GerryM - not Me Husband's etc.; completely different matter.

Subject: RE: TRADTIONAL SONGS I would not sing
From: Paul Burke
Date: 26 Sep 26 - 07:47 PM

An why wouldn't ye sing them songs? Do ye think ye've got some fallorum? Ha!

Curried gin an' all.

Subject: RE: TRADTIONAL SONGS I would not sing
From: r.padgett
Date: 27 Sep 26 - 02:32 AM

Well times are a changing and songs have words that have changed their meaning eg "gay" was widely used in the old days ~

Offensive meanings are to looked out for and avoided or course

Ray

Subject: RE: TRADTIONAL SONGS I would not sing
From: GerryM
Date: 27 Sep 26 - 02:46 AM

Paul, I just had my fallorum serviced. Good to go for another 15,000 kilometers. But, thanks for asking.

Subject: RE: TRADTIONAL SONGS I would not sing
From: Paul Burke
Date: 27 Sep 26 - 03:24 AM

Hey Gerry, you're the lucky man! They can't get the parts for mine.

But to be cirrhious: there's a whole genre of songs that were often sung 50 years ago, and seem to have vanished completely, at least in the (ever- decreasing) circles I orbit. Perhaps because it could be illegal to sing some of them now in UK: the "Irish rebel song". Possibly a good thing, both Ireland and our understanding of the conflict have changed a lot in that time. Sean South*, for example, wasn't just a pathetically inadequate guerilla, he was also a fascistic Catholic bigot and antisemitic too. But even the self- appointed arbiters of "traditional folk" can't deny that the songs came from a living tradition.

It's also interesting that that genre seems totally silent about the aftermath of independence. Any songs about the diehards?

* Of Garryowen, or Up An' Under as we called it oop north.

Subject: RE: TRADTIONAL SONGS I would not sing
From: Johnny J
Date: 27 Sep 26 - 06:03 AM

As Sandman says, this thread is about Trad Songs.

However, it would interesting to learn what people's views are on Trad v pop/contemporary songs, in this respect.

Until recently, many traditional songs seem to have been given an "Get of of jail card" with the the argument being that they were "of their time" and/or are historically significant.

More modern songs don't seem to get this luxury. There are some dreadful ones, e.g. Maxwells Silver Hammer is my most hated but there are many more. Also many otherwise good songs have been cancelled because of the composers' misdemeanours. This isn't such a factor with more traditional material as we don't always know where it exactly originated.

Also, many songs both traditional and modern continue to be popular in spite of dodgy lyrics as they are often "carried" along by a good tune or sweet melody. That's another phenomenon worthy of discussion too, I think,

Subject: RE: TRADTIONAL SONGS I would not sing
From: Nick Dow
Date: 27 Sep 26 - 01:03 PM

Fanny Blair. I have never liked it, especially the 'Perjuring little whore verse'