Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards

Subject: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 28 Jan 00 - 11:15 PM

From 'The Half-Barbaric Twang' by Karen Linn "A comparison of American and European banjos of the 1840's shows that the banjo had achieved a stable artifactual tradition in the United States but not in Europe. With its African percussiveness and short sustain on stopped strings, the banjo was ill suited for the slow legato melodies of much European music, and so seemed, by European aesthetic standards, to be emotionally limited and incapable of musical profundity. The banjo was thus a fitting instrument for the minstrelman's creation of the image of the slow-witted but happy slave, and the banjo has been called a "happy" instrument ever since."

Considering recently a fellow Mudcatter felt I had an IQ of less than 40, it sounds like I have found my instrument.

BB

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: Metchosin
Date: 28 Jan 00 - 11:30 PM

Well Bonnie, them Europeons thought tomatus were poisonus and corn was somethin you only fed ta farm animals, so what do they know!

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Jan 00 - 12:00 AM

Bonnie, the insecure will always point out what they perceive to be the faults of others, when it is really themselves they speak of. Nobody of any account on here has ever doubted your intelligence OR your banjo-picking, NOR your choice of the best Canada has to offer in teachers!

Just recently I heard someone playing "classical" banjo on NPR. It sounded beautiful and would've had those old-time snoots dropping their jaws in amazement. Just goes to show that nobody is always right.

Nice ta see ya on here, darlin.

luvyaKat

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jan 00 - 01:10 AM

My fondest memory of Bill Crofut is hearing him play Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring on the 5 string. There was a guy who understood Banjo. And he was no European.

A,

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Jan 00 - 01:27 AM

Bela Fleck certainly has taken the instrument out of its traditional realm, despite its inherently staccato nature.

I would also love to hear someone play the Sicillian Tarentella on it.

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: wildlone
Date: 29 Jan 00 - 08:42 PM

but why are the bloody things so expensive over here if they are not popular.
davewhowouldlikeonebutcantaffordthekingsransom

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 29 Jan 00 - 08:58 PM

Strange... Banjo's were very popular in Britain.. Had quite a following when I was young.. especially with the British Jazz and blues folkies...Even the ukelele type. Anyone hear George Formby sing When I'm Cleaning windows? Yours, (puzzled) Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: GUEST,Garry of Australia
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 03:07 AM

I am glad they are so expensive, this keeps bad folkie musicians from buying and playing them

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: wildlone
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 05:09 AM

But allows rich bastards to hang them on the wall as a status symbol along with the guitars.

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: Chris/Darwin
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 05:29 AM

Status symbol!!

I made the mistake of leaving mine on the back seat of the car once. I was only away for 5 minutes, but, you guessed it, when I came back someone had broken a window and left two more banjos in the back seat!!

Regards
Chris

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: wildlone
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 09:56 AM

When you have seen an early Gibson,mother of pearl inlay etc, hung up with an Archtop and a Les Paul asking "do you play" and being told "No, but you can't play these they are collectable". What a waste.
Yet these are the kind of people who will polish them using silicon based polishes.

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: Willie-O
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 10:17 AM

Personally I think the banjo's brightness and lack of sustain (or rapid tonal decay as you _might_ say) makes it a great instrument for those bach n baroque kind of things. And a really good player can put just the right amount of vibrato n stuff in, (when not trying to shave another 2/10th second off the worlds record time for "Foggy Mountain Breakdown", the kind of approach that gives the instrument its evil reputation) to make a very distinctive interpretation of any kind of medium-paced tune. (Check out Ken Perlman's "Celtic Music on the 5-string banjo")

I heard R Fielding for the first time on CBC radio very early in the morning a few days ago. Doin a catchy little number called the "Catspaw Rag." Coincidence? Don't believe in 'em myself.

W-O

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: GUEST,Ickle Dorritt
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 10:54 AM

At least two members of our club play a passible banjo and very welcome they are too -what do you mean tomatoes aren't poisonous????

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: Rincon Roy
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 11:11 AM

heck, tomatoes are safe, it's the lead they leach out of your mum's pewter that does the evil deed... switch to earthenware... Meanwhile, Ken Perlman is due in Tucson shortly for house concert somewhere around this desert city. looking forward to finally seeing the melodic clawhammer guru in person. Yippee

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: John Hindsill
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 11:30 AM

I commend for your delight and listening pleasure Pete Seeger's GOOFING-OFF SUITE, in which he waxes wonderfully (mostly) on his banjo. Included are themes from Bach, Beethoven, Grieg and I. Berlin, as well as traditional folk airs.---John

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: Charcloth
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 11:52 AM

I find "She beg she more" a very nice banjo tune as well as "the south wind". For jigs the old 5 string is great in the clawhammer style. I never could get the Scruggs style though

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: Áine
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 12:11 PM

Dear Charcloth,

'She beg she more' is the phonetic pronounication of the Irish tune/song 'Sí Beag Sí Mór', just in case anyone's going to try to look it up. It's also called 'Sí Bheag Sí Mhór', pronounced 'she veg she whor'.

-- Áine

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: Willie-O
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 12:37 PM

Aine, if you think any of us of the male persuasion are going to try to make some smart-ass response to that interesting information...you're just wrong. (Until 'Spaw notices it.)

W-O

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: Áine
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 12:44 PM

Geez loueez, Willie-O! The 'wh' in 'whor' should be pronounced like the 'wh' in 'where' NOT the other word! You're a right devil!

-- Áine (blushingtothetipsofherears)

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 12:52 PM

Way too easy....I'll pass.

Willie....So you know, Rick was working on that little ditty back in the Spring of this year using various titles. In late April, as you can read in the threads, I damn near died. Rick's way of coping with that kind of thing has always been music.....a wonderful thing indeed. He finished the rag while I was still iffy and then put it on his new album, "This One's the Dreamer."....available thru Folk-Legacy Records and its an excellent album!

He's free to change the name anytime, but I was appreciative of his warm thoughts and grateful for the concern he and EVERYONE at Mudcat had and the support we got from all of them. Mud is thicker than water.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 12:52 PM

Three folks are standin' at a bar. A stranger comes up lookin' fer a little conversation. He says to the first one,"Hi, say, you don't know your IQ. do ya?" The first barfly says, "Well actually it's around 180." Hey that's great says the stranger, and they talk a little nuclear physics for a while. Tiring of this, the stranger leans over to the next one. "What's your IQ friend," he says. "Oh about 120", comes the answer. "Well how 'bout that SuperBowl, and that upcoming presidential election", says the stranger. They chat happily for a while. After a while the only one left for the stranger to talk to is the third one at the bar. "Hey you down there, what's your IQ?" The barfly, looks confused, starts counting his fingers, then his toes, and mumbles "duh, 'bout 40 I suppose". "Do you use a forward roll or double thumb the bridge on "Sally Gooden"? (Banjo humour 101)

About 18 years ago a student at USC wrote a paper for his thesis on "The pyschological make-up of banjo players". (this is true actually). It was published in one of the banjo trade magazines. His conclusions based on what would appear to be a fair amount of research was that (bluegrass )banjoists were very introverted, had tunnel vision, fewer friends (than the other bluegrass players) and could happily sit practicing in a near catatonic state for many hours at a time. Apparently, things like eating, human relationships, TV, new clothes, and conversation ranked low in their priorities. One observation that stood out was that of the 40 (serious) 3 finger pickers he interviewed, only 8 had driver's licences.(way lower than the average among bluegrass players)

A letter to the editor of the publication where the article was printed, asked "had he tried to determine IQ scores?" His answer was that "although most of the interviewees didn't know their IQ,..his guess was that most of them would ace an IQ test.

I'm waiting for the psychological evaluation of 53 year old men who collect capos! (I have 41 and am still collecting)

Rick

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: Sourdough
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 03:00 PM

The second person I heard play classical music on the banjo was a fellow named Sandy Bull. I can't remember much about him but I think he was primarily a bagpipe player. In any case, he performed in New York City and I went to see him a couple of times because he always included some very tasteful and well done classical and baroque music in his performances. However, the banjo/classical music image that remains so vivid in my memory comes from a different place.

Years ago, probably a hair on the other side of 1960, when I was on the Board of people that ran the Indian Neck Folk Music Festival, we used to produce concerts that raised the money to pay for the festival. I stage managed those performances and that was why I was backstage just before a concert Pete Seeger was giving at Woolsey Hall in New Haven. I went back to talk to him on some routine piece of business like "Ten minutes Mr. Seeger" when I heard him warming up. I had never heard anyone play Bach on the banjo before. It was a revelation. The clear notes sounded individual and crisp. The characteristics of the sound seemed beutifully mated to the music. I could imagine Wanda Landowska listening and wondering if it was too late for her to learn another instrument.

When I pushed open the door which was already ajar, I saw Pete Seeger, alone in the room, warming up. He was in deep concentration, focusing on what he was playing, and he was smiling, to himself. It made me think that maybe, when all was said and done, he got more pleasure out of playing than he did from performing even though his performances brought pleasure to so many tens of thousands of people.

Sourdough

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 03:41 PM

You should hear Michael Mile's CD, _American Bach_. One side is Miles's own _Suite for the Americas_, and the other is filled with his banjo transcriptions of Bach music. Wonderfully done.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 31 Jan 00 - 11:17 AM

Those elite Europian musicians who play most everthing from written music, just don't get it. They are most likely unable to duplicate or understand the intracrate style, depth and feel of traditional banjo music that players such as North Carolina's Fred Cockerham and Kyle Creed, Frank Proffitt possessed. At least we know we got the right instrument Bonnie (regardless of our I.Q.).

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: Jon W.
Date: 31 Jan 00 - 11:53 AM

If the Europeans don't think banjos have enough sustain, how do they explain harpsichords?

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 31 Jan 00 - 03:59 PM

Well now that I feel much better about my IQ, as I read on in 'That Half-Barbaric Twang', by the mid 1890's the banjo took another direction "classical" banjo expressing a desire to elevate the banjo. Alfred A. Farland started playing music that no one else had thought possible or advisable on the banjo. Farland's repertoire consisted of European art music such as Mendelssohn's Violin Concerto, Beethoven sonatas and Rossinis William Tell Overture.
At the same time there was a popular movement to "elevate" the banjo's image "freeing it from the degraded touch of the black man, the immoralities of the theater, and antiprogressive values" "Take it into good company. The more refined and intellectual the company the better it will be."
The story gets worse...........
They advertised banjos as being more appropriate than guitars for ladies, claiming that the guitar playing caused women to sit in an unfeminine position.

BB

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: Willie-O
Date: 31 Jan 00 - 04:56 PM

As cited above:

"His conclusions based on what would appear to be a fair amount of research was that (bluegrass )banjoists were very introverted, had tunnel vision, fewer friends (than the other bluegrass players) and could happily sit practicing in a near catatonic state for many hours at a time. Apparently, things like eating, human relationships, TV, new clothes, and conversation ranked low in their priorities.

This dovetails neatly with my own observation, going back about 20 years also, that a lot of banjo players are computer programmers!

By coincidence, I've been hearing from an old friend who is composing, umm whatayocallit--"new music", like, serious music, for cello and other instruments like that. She's interested in getting a unique kind of fretless banjo made (being a despiser of the tempered scale), larger than your normal little one, with a curved fingerboard (& bridge) more like a fiddle, that she can compose serious music for. Any luthiers interested? Spaw?

By the way, glad you made it through the life-threatening situation, and got a good tune out of it too! (I was offline from April through October, which was stunningly good for me)

W-O

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: Art Thieme
Date: 31 Jan 00 - 08:04 PM

One fine day on the steamboat John Hartford told me, "A bonjo will get you through times of no money, but money won't get you through times of no banjo."

Later, the "Gasoline Alley" comic strip ran a few strips with John in them where he used that same utterance. I always did find it to have an exceedingly large amount of truth to it. Now that I'm unable to pick at all, I can see how profound Mr. Hartford was. Right now, John could use some prayers or just good vibes at a quite difficult time for him.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 10:24 AM

I've really been enjoying the recordings John Hartford has released of fiddle music over the last few years with Bob Carlin & Co. What's happening with John? Is he very ill?

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 11:02 AM

So I'll admit that I was the guy described above when I was learning to play the five string. Played it through everything, you couldn't have got my attention if the house was on fire. Practiced forward, backward and square rolls in the car on the way to work with an audio instruction tape and no instrument. I finally got so frustrated by the instrument that I packed it away in a safe place (with my 1 iron for my fellow golfers). I'm a much happier person now, but what does this say about my I.Q.?

Speaking of classical music on the 5-String, does anyone remember "Ode to Joy" during the credits of Raising Arizona? I thought it was really a neat version.

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 11:33 AM

Oh and by the way BB, my sister was telling me that in her musical studies she read that European music scholars studied African music and found that Africans had absolutely no musical ability.

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: GUEST,2words
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 12:22 PM

Earl Scruggs

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 01:41 PM

Guest 2 Words,

I'm assuming and hoping that Earl Scruggs is an endorsement of the instrument as Earl is certainly a wonderful and innovative musician, but let's not forget Ralph Stanley, a superb player, writer and one of the finest harmonizers I've ever heard. Don Reno was another wonderful player and I've heard it said that he invented the bluegrass method of playing by alternating thumb and finger picking. I heard that he developed this style with his thumb and pointer finger, Earl heard it and went to the thumb and two finger style while Reno was overseas and therefore Earl usually gets most of the credit for fathering the Bluegrass style. The one thing the Mudcat has proven to me time and time again though, is that I'm usually wrong in these matters.

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 03:24 PM

Sorry Steve, you're wrong. Many players in the Carolinas used the three finger style, long before Scruggs. Many recorded examples as well. To simplify a VERY long story, Earl may have been the most naturally talented and certainly polished the technique up well, by the time he was about 14. His work with The Morris Bros. predates Monroe by quite a bit and proves his style was fully developed. Don Reno,(as well as Scruggs) would have listened to a lot of Snuffy Jenkins, and Reno credits Jenkins with showing him stuff. One fact that few argue about is that Reno would have gotten much more recognition had he not gone into the army when the banjo mania hit.

Rick

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 05:26 PM

The other thing that is proven to me time and time again is that I'm usually corrected by Mr. Fielding. Banjo stuff, Blues stuff, '53 Yankee shortstops, I'll bet you could even tell me who won the Minor Novice "AA" game between Pickering and Whitby last night to wrap up the playoff series, who's playing at O'Hara's this Friday and when Latimer's celebrate New Year's eve.

I bow to you sir.

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: GUEST,Stupidbodhranplayerwhodoesn'tknowanybetter
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 05:56 PM

A good friend of mine has been doing some brilliant Irish and Scottish stuff on a banjo-mandolin. (OK that's a stetch but it's still a banjo of sorts) For that matter, Mick Moloney would probably tend to disagree about the banjo not being up to European standards! Slan, Rich

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: Crowhugger
Date: 12 Feb 00 - 06:07 PM

How come the guitar has become worthy of the serious composers even though it needs amplification. But not the banjo with its no-foolin' resonator and unique tone?

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Feb 00 - 06:20 PM

Evidentally most derious composers mistook them for firewood,,,a common enough error.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: Crowhugger
Date: 13 Feb 00 - 12:07 AM

eeewwww!

flame, flame!

ugh--double eewww not intended. not this one either. I'll just post'n'get-gravol before I gag any more! As soon as I ask,

Spaw, what's so easy about a fiddly-neck banjo for those of us who, before Mudcat of course, thought "luthier" is just one more name for boy babies?

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Feb 00 - 12:25 AM

It isn't?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Banjo Never Met Europian Music Standards
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 13 Feb 00 - 03:16 AM

John McEuen of the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band does a fine rendition of Clementi's Opus 36 on their Uncle Charlie album. The arguments that the banjo is not a serious instrument remind me of similar views long held of the harmonica, despite a preponderance of evidence to the contrary.