Help: Good modern folkies

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: GUEST,Terry
Date: 07 Feb 00 - 08:09 AM

In all of of this debate (and IMO some rather wishy-washy recommendations) I still see no reference to Vin Garbutt, hence my input. I don't expect anyone outside of UK to be aware but if you want a real treat, seek him out. I've enjoyed his gigs at Hitchin and at Watford in recent years, but I guess you foreigners (no offence) will have to make do with recordings! Terry

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: GeorgeH
Date: 07 Feb 00 - 05:33 AM

Despite some good recommendations, much of that Times article are garbage. Apart from anything else, in much of the UK the folk clubs are irrelelevant . . and too many of them are more likely to put people off the music. Granted there appear to be areas where this is not so (the North East in particular has been cited), and there remain good clubs in many areas, but (IMO) far more significant these days is the Arts Centres circuit.

And despite his hype, John Leonard's programme is generally dismal (his frontsperson, former folk humourist Mike Harding, doesn't help); its usual bland, easy-listening MOR content is quite untypical of the strength of Folk music in the UK; indeed the UK folk scene is gravely under-represented in the programme (although its not as uniformly dreadful as it was in its early days).

By contrast there is now an excellent late-night Radio 3 programme which covers folk/roots music from the UK and the rest of the world and does so very well - plus Ned Sherrin (Radio 4?) frequently features excellent Folk acts without the need to submerge them beneath his own patronising ego . .

So - the "scene" is in very good health . . just don't trust "mainstream" journalism.

G.

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 06 Feb 00 - 08:16 PM

Simon...

Cool...

I'll keep an ear pealed and see if I trip over them!

How's that for mixing metaphores!?! LOL!!!

Take Ye Care Eh!

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: simon-pierre
Date: 05 Feb 00 - 11:56 PM

Clinton,

I really mean BOB Snider, a canadian. He recorded two album on EMI, «Catterwaul and doggerel» (with the hilarious «Darn folksinger») and «Word and pictures»; maybe more, but i don't know them.

SP

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: Sourdough
Date: 05 Feb 00 - 11:47 PM

Not all that long ago, I took the position that I wasn't going to get too exercised about people using "nigger". As Clinton pointed out, it is a word that is often used by Africa Americans among themselves.

I was having this exchange on a bulletin board and I made what I thought was a reasoned and articulate defense against the "word police". Then someone made the simple point that racial epithets made the people being referred to uncomfortable so why, he asked, would I want to insist on doing that. There is enough lack of civility in discussions without inserting needless discomforts. Did I have a reason that was worth making people uncomfortable? Was there a point I was trying to make that was worth sacrificing their comfort for?

I didn't and there wasn't so I changed my mind. Perhaps some others will change their minds, too.

Sourdough

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 05 Feb 00 - 03:08 AM

SP...

Did you mean Tod (2'd's?)Snider?? As in "Todd (1 'd'?) Snider and the Nervous Wrecks"? Check the Thread about Funniest Talking Blues Tune...

It's way too later after too long a gig to spell! LOL!!!

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: simon-pierre
Date: 05 Feb 00 - 01:24 AM

Does anybody mentionned Bob Snider? He's really good.

SP

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 04 Feb 00 - 11:32 AM

Sorry, that last GUEST was me: too busy cuttin' 'n' pastin' to notice I'd missed my handle off!
RtS

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 00 - 11:29 AM

This is what today's London Times says about 'Catters Sam and Ian (of 4-2-2- fame):
{ how do you like being called a brat act, guys?
RtS

Nowt so gear as folk It was only a few years ago that folk singers were regarded as a sad bunch of beardy Frank Dobson lookalikes singing about jolly plough boys and wild gypsy rovers. But the times they are a-changin'. Led by a new breed of feisty young designer-clad "folk babes", folk music is hipper than it has been for decades and, on Monday, Britain's first ever folk awards ceremony will take place.

At the head of the folk bratpack and expected to win major awards are Kate Rusby, 25, and Eliza Carthy, 24, whose most recent album, Red Rice, added drum and bass grooves to her traditional folk stylings.

Other brat acts in contention for awards include the brilliant young fiddle player Nancy Kerr and Tarras, the teenage band from the Borders, whose debut album Rising made a big impression last year. The equally youthful 4-2-2 from Yorkshire, winners of Radio 2's Young Folk Award, will also perform at the event. Their prize includes a prime slot at the prestigious Cambridge Folk Festival in July and a British Council-sponsored world tour.

"Folk music is built on tradition, but there are so many young acts coming through that it is quite humbling," says John Leonard. He says that audiences for the weekly Folk On 2 programme, which he produces for Radio 2, now touch 750,000. "There's more interest than ever and folk records are getting played across the BBC's airwaves by mainstream broadcasters. Folk has broken out of its ghetto."

But despite folk's increasing crossover potential, it is the several hundred folk clubs up and down the country which remain the backbone of the music. The BBC asked those who make a living from playing the circuit to vote for the Folk Club of the Year. The first winner is the Westhougton club in Lancashire.

"It's a very traditional folk club that has been there for ever," Leonard says. "But there are plenty of others like it. All of these clubs are run by enthusiastic amateurs who usually end up putting in their own money to keep it going. But the clubs have bred a kind of artist you don't find anywhere else in the world. The floor spots where people play for free give anyone an opportunity to sing and everybody gets a hearing, whether they are great or dreadful. The best people, like Kate Rusby, go on, but everybody starts from the same place."

Rusby certainly has gone on and is favourite to win in the Folk Album of the Year category for Sleepless, with its repertoire of "drowning ballads and castle-knocking-down songs," as she calls them.

She has an answer to those who question the continuing relevance of such songs, pointing out that what remains unchanging about the human condition is often more profound than that which we call progress. "The old ballads are full of stories about falling in and out of love, being born and dying. They've never seemed old-fashioned to me."

She brushes aside the suggestion that the "folk babes" such as herself and Carthy have rescued folk music from what looked like a slow but inexorable slide into oblivion. "Folk music has been there for hundreds of years. It doesn't need me or anybody else to be its saviour."

Carthy agrees, but is also on a mission to take the music to a wider audience. "If you don't want to sell loads of albums and prefer to sit around in tiny clubs, that's OK," she says. "But I can't do that because I live in the modern world. I approve of dragging the music into a contemporary context. It's about time folk was made more stylish."

The BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards take place on Monday. The event will be broadcast at 8pm on Radio 2 on Feb 9

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: GeorgeH
Date: 04 Feb 00 - 08:36 AM

Guest (the last), take a course in English comprehension. Then come back when you are prepared to put your name to your purile stupidity.

G.

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 00 - 08:08 AM

Clinton; Give it up...you cannot win against an offended language policeman. They claim your rights, the rights of free speech, the right to be offended....you have no right to speak, no right to offend them and no right defend yourself. They do not get it...the cure( personal attacks on the politically incorrect" is worse than the disease {being politically incorrect}.

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: Ely
Date: 03 Feb 00 - 08:38 PM

Ed Miller (Scottish, displaced to Austin, Texas)

Norman Kennedy (very traditional Scottish)

Townes Van Zandt (country, the "Bob Dylan of Texas")

Robert Earl Keen (see TVZ above)

Kelly Joe Phelps (acoustic guitar blues)

Kate Wolf (1960's-1980's, reminds me of Jean Ritchie)

Billy Bragg (British political stuff)

Freakwater (alternative honky-tonk)

And of course, the usual Arlo Guthrie, Tom Paxton, Dave Van Ronk, Paul Geramia, Buffy Sainte-Marie, Doc Watson, Clarence Ashley, Elizabeth Cotten, Etta Baker, Jean Ritchie, Howie Mitchell . . . )

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: InOBU
Date: 03 Feb 00 - 08:32 PM

Yup, Peg
the big spinning cube, that is Astor place at the begining of St. Marks Place, where one day, my wife and I, both lawyers interceeded when a group of young toughs were hassling a person who had been hit by the cube, when they had spun it without looking to see if anyone was sleeping under it.
We found ourself defending the poor fellow, and one of the flash toughs said, He was asuming the risk when he choose to sleep there!
October! sais my sweetie, One month of law school and you think you can talk like a lawyer.
Exit a group of red faced first years... chalk up another legal victory for my wife Genie... Ah the cube!
Larry

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: GUEST,Neil Lowe
Date: 03 Feb 00 - 06:58 PM

InOBU....that was probably a little more information than I needed to know, but yes, I get the picture. I know, I know....I asked. Thanks.

Regards, Neil

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: Peg
Date: 03 Feb 00 - 03:07 PM

Larry; lovely olfactory descriptions! I am trying to remember from a trip to NYC ten years back...is St. Marks Place where that big spinning cube statue is? and isn't St. Marks Place subway station the one with the beavers???

It smelled pretty much like the rest of NYC to me, but if pressed, I can conjure up what different areas smell like...once had a vivid rush of deja vu on the upper West Side, when the smell of an Italian dish seasoned with basil and thyme wafted out, wham! I was in my grandfather's kitchen back in western NY... too bad Little Italy is almost gone, it used to smell real good around there...I mean, it still does, it just smells like Chinatown now...and i love the dusty smell of that shop in the West Village where they sell old chess sets...

so does Bagatelle have good beer? I'd rather smell the remnants of Guinness or Beamish or Murphy's or Bass than Budweiser any day... and I hope they have a decent single malt selection ;0

looking forward to my visit to the apple

peg

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: GUEST,Canoer
Date: 03 Feb 00 - 03:03 PM

Thanks, George. Got the same problems over here. It's the same world.

I can handle, "supplement."

Regards -- Larry C.

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: InOBU
Date: 03 Feb 00 - 02:55 PM

Hi Neil:
I not only play at Bagatelle, here on SMP, but I have lived here for decades. Well, at the time he speaks of, the cops used to have a detail early in the morning to scoup up the boddies of dead overdosed kids off the sidewalk between second and third before folks going to work would be offended by the sight. Now, during the summer, we still get a lot of kids from New Jersey getting tanked and leaving their dinners on the sidewalk late on Friday and Saturday night, and of cource, as there are a lot of restaurants on that particular block of St. Marks, the rotting garbadge before the moring pick up and spruce up, in July and Aug. is pretty rank. So, to get an image of the sent he referes to (though again, it is seasonal, like going to Cardiff when the hops are being roasted) take the contents of your fridge, put it on your roof on a day when the temp gets over 90, add a dead dog or other large mamal, though on a can or two of Amercican beer - Budwieser for authenticity, a few labratory smells to get the right heroin smell - if you are aiming at the seventies sent, let stand for a long weekend, then, place your chair next to the mess, put on Tom Paxton, and enjoy the full effect.
Now, just as there is now a mall on the Holy Ground in Dingle, there is a city corportation of some kind that actualy cleans St.Marks between 2nd and 3rd all day long, and so, one needs not be so offended by the smell in these new days of NeoFacism provided by our agust little mayor, Rudy, so, other than having to deal with kids coming to play in a place where many do not card the bars (by the way they do at Bagatelle and it is well run and good food!) St. Marks is a ghost of its former smell, I mean self
Get the picture?
Larry

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: GUEST,Neil Lowe
Date: 03 Feb 00 - 02:13 PM

InOBU......perhaps you could enlighten me. I've never been to NYC, much less St. Mark's Place, but there's a line in "Talkin' Vietnam Pot Luck Blues," by Tom Paxton:
Big smile on the Captain's face,
He smelled like midnight on St. Mark's Place.

My question: what does 'midnight on St. Mark's Place' smell like?

Regards, Neil

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 03 Feb 00 - 02:04 PM

I was trying to let this stupid mess drop, but this got my hackles up....

Self-Righteous??? Now there's the pot calling the kettle black... or should I say sooty, because some people might thing there are racist connotations to this... Are you also infavour of banning Ba Ba Black Sheep?? And myybe you agree that Tom Sayer shouldn't be taught in school?? I'm just gussing here...

"The same applies to "gay" and "dyke", from your list; they ARE currently offensive".. Offensive to who?? You maybe.. but don't presume to judge for the whole world.. especially not my corner of it k...

I don't know much about traditions fiddle music?? Not true... I know plenty about it and I know that I find it, for the most part, overblown... "I" find it boring... I'm not saying that others don't enjoy it... I'm saying "I" don't...

But thanks Aldus... freedom is freedom eh... no half-ways about it...

I can't belive this is all in defence of a pedophile... He pees on little boys and I get slammed for using words... Only in America... ;-)

NOW... I'm laving this mess alone... There have got to be better things to do than this... Like maybe giving myself a broken glass high colonic....

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: GeorgeH
Date: 03 Feb 00 - 01:20 PM

Aldus, you're making an idiot of yourself. No one said anything about the origin of the word faggot . . the comments were on the (history of) its CURRENT common usage. The same applies to "gay" and "dyke", from your list; they ARE currently offensive, and with good cause. I don't think there's any problem with niggardly, and you're certainly doing your damndest to be obtuse. Of couse in any free society folks can decide to be as anti-social and offensice as they like - but must expect others to take exception to their behaviour. Just don't try to suggest to anyone that ANY music is more important than questions of common decency vs. gratuitous offensivness.

G.

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: Peg
Date: 03 Feb 00 - 01:14 PM

who's Sally?

The niggardly, picayunish justification of one's reprehensible boorish moralizings, utilizing obtuse, arcane, ostensibly-disingenuous psuedo-etymology, is the pathetic refuge of the self-righteous bigot.

peg

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: GUEST,aldus
Date: 03 Feb 00 - 12:39 PM

Sally; You are wrong about the origin of the word faggot.... Misinformation is a weapon often wielded by the offended...Faggot meant originally a bundle of sticks. When heretics were threatened with burning at the stake and recanted...the symbol of the "faggot" was sewn on their clothing to indicate a saved sinner. The word was also applied to someone who stood in for someone else at a regimental roll call.. it's most common usage in saxon english was in its application to an old woman who appeared to resemble a witch...the symbol for a witch was a stick broom, commonly known as a faggot. Get yourself a good dictionary of english word origins or you'll get offended if someone calls you niggardly.........or gay.......or dyke ......or obtuse...

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From:
Date: 03 Feb 00 - 11:47 AM

Good modern folkies? How about early Dougie McLean, Craigie Dhu for example. Much better than his recent pastel tinted nonsense. Also, brand new is Malinky from Edinburgh. Saw them at Celtic Connections this year, new CD (Last Leaves, I think)is just out. Karine the lead singer has a great traditional voice. Others from the 80s/90s: Ian Walker, flying high is a wonderful political album. Jez Lowe, also subtly political and overtly so on occasion. Ian Bruce, great voice now re-visiting traditional songs. Hope this helps a little with the Scottish Scene.

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: GeorgeH
Date: 03 Feb 00 - 07:50 AM

Canoer: You really need to talk to Mr Bragg on this one!! But I guess he'd say that what he sings supplements rather than surplants the original, and I'm sure he has the same respect as you do for the history of the original.

As for "are there no factories, mills and offices where . . people go on strike" well, in terms of being effective vehicles for change, that's about it. The Thatcher governments effectively emasculated the unions, and "new labour" shows little sign of restoring any significant power to them, or doing anything else to achieve greater justice between employer and employee. Most strikes here are either small-scale and localised or end up in the workers being replaced with non-union labour, and there's damn all the unions can do about it.

And at the same time our "strong" economy, much lauded by the government, is further damaging our "factories, mills and offices" infrastructure by making our exports over-priced and creating a domestic economy where "lowest price" is the bottom line for everything . . whatever is driving our economy (so called "invisibles", largely) it ain't doing a lot of the UK much good. So perhaps Bragg is right in looking for a new venue for the "final drama". Certainly his song reflects where political (though not party political) activism IS currently taking place in the UK.

'scuse the rant.

And a ps to Clinton Hammond - your attempts at self justification "suck" even more than your original remarks; since you refuse to accept reasoned and reasonable, though mild, criticism of your offensiveness I guess we all now know to treat you with the contempt you seem to want.

G.

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: GUEST,aldus
Date: 03 Feb 00 - 07:35 AM

Clinton knows nothing about traditional fiddling. But he does know that in a democracy everyone has the right to be offended. I too find many words offensive...but I have no right to ban them or to curb the use of them. Those of you who have exercised your right ot be offended...Thank you...now get over it.Back to music.

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: GUEST,canoer
Date: 03 Feb 00 - 02:47 AM

Oops. I see we took a little detour while I was gone. Nicely spoken, Peg, George, Lorcan.

Returning: To George H: Mr. Encyclopedia, thank you! Those sites should keep me occupied a while.

Re brother Bragg, I'm glad to hear he has an admirable history. Nevertheless, on this one song, if he was extending his scope, it went through a prism that separated out the distinctly (if very awkwardly translated) workers - vs - bosses language and structure. With the exception of one line that mentions exploitation, all the other language and sentiment is accessible to anyone from any class without their having to deal with the workers - vs - bosses matter. Especially telling is his idea that the final drama will take place in the streets and in the fields. What, are there no factories, mills, and offices where people work -- and go on strike -- any more?

Because the Internationale has a very special history, and because there are so few such songs, I prefer that "updaters" take special care to preserve its full meaning. On the other hand -- who'll notice anyway?

Been fun talking with you. :> -- Larry C.

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 02 Feb 00 - 03:50 PM

Maybe I'm just the biggees THREAD CREEP here?

Love me, hate me, love to hate me...

Ya know what... I don't care one lick...

I've know a few words since I was a young boy, that are a lot worse than the things Peg called me, but I'm not going to use them...

Nothing is universal... Nothing is universally understood... what an ego one must have to expect that the whole world thinks and acts like oneself...

InOBU... thanks for discussing without slinging... But you know what you can do with yer soap eh?!?! LOL!!

"Ya shouldn't hang me on a hook. My mother once hung me on a hook. Once" -Johnny Dangerously-

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: InOBU
Date: 02 Feb 00 - 03:07 PM

Mary McCaffrey!
If you are following this thread, could you e-mail me at the address in bbcs resourses?
All the best,
Larry

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: InOBU
Date: 02 Feb 00 - 02:59 PM

Clinton!
Everyone! Calm down a moment, and take a good deep breath... OK?
Now. Everytime someone gets called out on something these days they talk about running off. Clinton, you will be missed, but, what should be missed are terms of racial and or gender bias, other than, as GeorgeH so aptly puts it, in the context of journalism.
Peg begins to give a good guage for the, should I say this? test, however, Peg, as we do not know where Clinton lives, forget going out on the street in your own neighborhood, try this...
I went to high school on 135th Street and Amsterdam Avenune in good old Harlem, New York City. There were many times I stood out for my Irish complexion, and yet, I can say, I was more than welcome in the neighborhood. However, I know that that welcome would have worn more than thin, if I called ANYONE, even my closest Black friend N____. True, some Black friends did call each other that, however, when I was in school, that was thought to be less than progressive among the Black community of my friends. Now, if you think that it is OK, to use such terms, I invite you to stand around some day, on the street in Harlem, or Bed Sty, or Oceanhill Brownsville, (all places I have worked and found great welcome)and greet folks with - Hey N___ Whatssup?! I predict that most people will just look at you with a sort of pittying stare, however, there are a few who might be a little less gentle. Now, I may point out, there are some militant Gay friends of mine, who might also be less kind if you used the F word as a pajoritive discription in their presence. The court generally allows for a modicom of violent responce to fighting words, like the N or F word. So maybe Lenny is right, but, I hope you are ready to live by the consiqences of your free speach, I think, it is easier for us all to just show a little respect.
Stick around, I enjoy much of what you have to say. But mind Peg and a few of us who may be lurking about with the big green bar of bad tasting soap.
I hope no bad feelings all round.
All the best
Lorcan (and dont call me Paddy) Otway

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: Peg
Date: 02 Feb 00 - 02:40 PM

this isn't a matter of taste. It is a matter of derogatory insults.

and it is not a "personal" thing; it is universally understood that such remarks are inappropriate.

Do you know the history of the word "faggot" and its use to deride homosexuals?

It's cuz they used to burn 'em at the stake...hence the connection to a formerly innocuous word meaning "a bundle of sticks."

as for "personal attacks," gimme a break. You started this. Be a "man" and admit as much...

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 02 Feb 00 - 02:33 PM

George....

I've never been accused of being sensitive!! LOL!! Or empathic... But I do have to ask, (and this is gonna sound meaner than I want it to) do you know most homosexuals? I'm related to them and some of my good friends are gay... so I know whereof I speak...

I've never really cared about people seening me in an unfavorable light at all... One doesn't go through the hardships of an ocean voyage to make friends... And they are as welcome to their opinion as I am... I wasn'tthe one that made this a personal thing... My idea of the "Good Taste Police" in another thread was shot down and I can understand why, but some here feel they wear that badge...

I was under the impression that this would be a place for the free exchange fo ideas... the key word there being free, but some expect this to be a shiney happy saccarine place 24/7... and I have no interst in that at all... And when things don't happen exactily how THEY would have it, they resort to personal attacts... So I have this feeling that I'll be going back to using Mudcat as the tool I think it is.. d.l.ing the database as it refreshes, and letting the 'community' stewe in it's own juice...

I don't imagine that many will be sorry to see me go...

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: GeorgeH
Date: 02 Feb 00 - 02:13 PM

As you say, Clinton, this sort of thing has been debated at length elsewhere - although every discussion I've seen has had people of sense and sensitivity coming down against you. To summarise (and yes, I do think this is necessary and make no apology to those who feel this isn't the place . .) it's simply a matter of not not being offensive. Regardless of how (some) homosexuals may refer to themselves and one another (in what is actually irony), most homosexuals find it offensive for other people to refer to them as faggots. And for that reason I find the use of the word faggot grossly offensive (except when used in necessary reportage).

You must realise, surely, that many people DO regard that usage as offensive; if you combine it with a highly derogatory remark about the guy's playing then you must expect people to see you in a very unfavourable light. Personally I wouldn't put myself out to hear Natalie MacMaster play, but she and MacIssac are of a level of competence where, if you're going to criticise them, you need to do so in a more considered manner than your dismissive remarks.

G.

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: Peg
Date: 02 Feb 00 - 02:05 PM

Clinton; feel free to backpedal all you want. I was insulted by your use of that word...and a gay man using it would have made that clear at the get-go.

You are no Lenny Bruce.

A gay man referring to himself with a gay slur is very different from a non-gay man doing the same; whether you think it's fair or not, that is the way it is...in the one case it is a sign of solidarity or reclamation; in the other it can be misunderstood; unless you are a close personal friend or ally; you do not appear to share either relationship with Mr. MacIsaac...

Along those lines, try using the "n" word on the street in your neighborhood some day and lemme know how you make out...

Nice try; engage your brain before hitting the send button next time...

I do not agree to disagree with you; I simply disagree with you.

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 02 Feb 00 - 01:02 PM

Peg... et al

Homophobic?? Me? Not at all... For all you know, I might very well be gay... I was mearly maiking a play on the sylables in his name... and calling someone something they call them selves is hardly an insult... At the risk of offending everyone here the word faggot and nigger are just words... I agree with Lenny Bruce that if we could all just say niggerniggerniggerniggerniggernigger until it didn't mean anything anymore, then Afro-decended children wouldn't come home crying because some racist called them a nigger... He was a briliant man, old Lenny...

Besides it's sexist to say that I can't call a homosexual faggot, when he calle's himself that, and other homosexuals use it all the time... you're saying then that it's o.k. for them but not for me... On the basis of sexual orientation... that's sex discrimination as near as I can tell...

But I suppose this is not the place for such debates... if you'd like to discuss it further, please feel free to send me a personal message and we can continue to exchange ideas...

As far as his playing goes... well... -I- think he sucks... Nat. Macmaster is abotu a million time better than he is... and Oliver Schroer is better than the both of them combined! Not htat fiddlers are a bidg deal for me... there seems to be this holy glow around fiddlers these days, especially traditional fiddlers.. and I gotta admit... after 3 or 4 tunes, jig, reels, whatever, they all start to sound the same to me... I listen to music for lyrics, stories... It just doens't blow my hair back...

So shall we agree to disagree and leave it at that? And because I started this, lemme get the next round k... maybe we can talk about the game instead... 'Cause we all know how 'safe' is can be talking sports teams eh!! LOL!!

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: GeorgeH
Date: 02 Feb 00 - 12:47 PM

Yup, Peg and InOBU, I'm with you there! (I'd meant to say the same, but forgot in the process of looking up all those web addresses; the old grey matter ain't what it was, I fear!)

But I have to say I think Bragg's written some fine songs . . both political and romantic. And I enjoy his readiness to disagree with some tenets of left-wing "received wisdon".

G.

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: annamill
Date: 02 Feb 00 - 12:45 PM

Wow! This has beeen an illuminating thread! I'm learnijg again. I'm an old '60s folkie too and I'm not too aware of the new stuff coming out. This thread is very informative and I plan to put a trace on it. Wish I knew who to thank. ????

Love, annap

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: InOBU
Date: 02 Feb 00 - 12:31 PM

Good on ya Peg!
Unfortunatly homophobic insults appear to be protected by law in NYC, in spite of the anti gay bias laws, as seen by the rediculous spectacle of the Saint Patricks Day parade in Manhattan, which is why, our band, Sorcha Dorcha, made up of non-homophobic heterosexual musicians, (I presume, I never asked, unlike the the dont ask dont tell Army policy, it just never came up...)is more than proud, we are outright chuffed to be asked to play at the Woodside All inclusive St. Patricks Day Parade banquet and we will march as a band in the parade on March 5.
Saint Marks Place, if it had a number, would be 8th Street, and we are between 3rd and 2nd ave.
ALl the best
Larry

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: Peg
Date: 02 Feb 00 - 11:35 AM

re: the Billy Bragg fans...I have seen Billy Bragg live a couple times; I must admit I will always enjoy him more as a performer than as a songwriter...he is hilarious.

hey Larry; I will be in touch closer to that weekend to make sure I am still coming; it would be great to come hear your band play, etc. Where is Bagatelle? and Clinton Hammond: I must say, that was a cheap shot at Ashley MacIsaac; in my world, calling a gay man a "faggot" is right up there with calling an African-American a "nigger." I am sorry if that stirs people up but since when is this a place where homophobic insults are acceptable?

peg

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: GeorgeH
Date: 02 Feb 00 - 10:27 AM

Hard Cash has recently been re-released on Fledg'ling Records (having originally been releases on Special Delivery); HARD CASH : RICHARD THOMPSON & chums; FLED 3017. See:

http://www.thebeesknees.com/bk-fr-ct.html

Dick Gaughan should feature in any good 'roots' record catalogue, although some of his recordings are harder to find than others. For radical/labour songs I'd especially recommend "A different kind of love song" and "True and Bold" (a record released for the Scottish Trades Union Congress aniversary. His web site may give some clues and is well worth a visit anyway; see:

http://www.dickalba.demon.co.uk/

Roy Bailey releases all his recordings on his own Fuse record label (which also released the Miners benefit tapes); there's a web page for Roy at:

http://www.stirrings.co.uk/folkzone/artistes/roybailey/index.html

which includes a discography, ordering info, and an email address for Roy.

Martin Carthy, again, should be easy to locate in any "roots" record catalogue. He has a (rather inadequate, IMO) "official" web site at:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/sjsheldon/mailorde.htm

or an unofficial but more informative one at:

http://hum2mac1.murdoch.edu.au/watersons/carthy.html

Robb Johnson is possibly the hardest to locate from outside the UK; he has a web site at:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/synergic_heathrow/robbmoos.htm

which looks somewhat out of date but otherwise pretty fair.

As for Billy Bragg - well, he's something of a personal hero (even though he's the only one of those mentioned I've never spoken to you). He's a working class lad from the East End of London, and has retained his "roots" accent. On a couple of occasions I've seen him lined up against Conservative politicians who've clearly thought "This guy can't talk properly, he must be a fool." Bragg has then proceeded to run rings round them and show them up for the idiots they are; intellectually he's very sharp. He's also very concerned with the whole range of social isssues; don't be misled by his re-working of The Internationale - he's merely extending its original scope! And he's done some fine "pro-union" songs.

Thinking about it, all those named have done their share of union benefits and the like.

All that said, I do find some of Bragg's workings on the archive of never-released Woody Guthrie material very disappointing; to my mind the project should have been MUCH more selective in the material it released in recorded form. While there's some excellent material, too much of it seems distinctly ordinary. (Of course Guthrie's unique style and personality MIGHT have put it across rather differently, but we can never know.)

Hope that rambling's of some interest!

G.

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: InOBU
Date: 02 Feb 00 - 08:18 AM

Mary
I did hear Meyer Shevin, and I am glad you reminded me. Someone asked if he recorded it, and he commented that he did not and added, of course with my voice. I meant to mention to him, at some point, that his performance of that song was powerful, and wonderful, and I for one, would listen to such a recording again and again. I hope, if anyone out there has his contact info. you pass it on to me, so I can tell him the same.
All the best
Larry

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: GUEST,Aldus
Date: 02 Feb 00 - 07:23 AM

Good Morning Clinton; I do have to disagree with you about Ashley as a fiddler.. He is simply one of the best. I do agree that much of his recent recorded work does not always show that. As for the Rankin women.. I don"t mean "The Rankin Family" women...Rita and Mary do a thing of their own.

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: GUEST,canoer
Date: 02 Feb 00 - 02:55 AM

Thank you, WW, and George H, what a nice welcome. I'm sort of new to this computer thing. But this looks like a place I'd love to have been for years. Of course first I had to read the Vietnam threads. My god. How powerful!

"But the ones who call the shots won't be among the dead and lamed."

(Guess I have a sentiment or 2 lurking about, also.)

George, I've never heard of any of those artists you listed, so I gotta investigate. But do you have hints of where to find these folks? Starting with "Hard Cash." I love the title because of the double meaning: we need hard cash, and it's hard to come by. Now, Mudcat here does not carry it. Any suggestions? Web sites?

Also, in UK, it seems Billy Bragg is a name. They brought him to perform at the Labor Day festivities in Detroit this year. I got one CD with his "new improved" Internationale on it. And for somebody who's supposed to be on the workers' side, he replaced all the workers' concerns/concepts with radical students' concerns! Can you tell me any more about this guy?

Sorry, took up more space than I meant to. Thanks again, both of you, for your responses!

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: WyoWoman
Date: 02 Feb 00 - 12:41 AM

Canoer -- If you're interested in labor movement history and songs, this is definitely the place to be. When the Big Mick isn't comepletely tied up in his paid gig, which is labor organizing, he's a great resource for information and songs. In fact, lots of folks on the 'Cat are interested in labor issues. We're a varied lot, but many of us do have certain sympathies. You should check out Si Kahn. A CD called "New Wood," I think (I loaned it to a friend "for the weekend" about three weeks ago) with a couple of really nice labor songs on it. Look at the thread on him a few months back. He's still doing labor work in the South (U.S.A.).

WyoWoman

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 06:23 PM

Larry,

I heard that song about profiling the businessman at PMN too-LOL funny! I hope you caught it on tape. Did you hear Mayer Shevin's song about the disabled person who couldn't speak, but who had songs inside bursting to come out? People listened so attentively, they'd have heard a pin, had Mayer dropped one. I hope to see more cross- fertilization between PMN and Mudcat. Do come back again, Larry.

Mary McCaffrey

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: InOBU
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 04:57 PM

Hi Peg!
Great time to come to NYC! We are doing our usual Wednesday and Sunday gig at Bagatelle, and I will post if we have anything else coming up... The best man at my wedding Ralph, is coming in from Devises, Wiltsire, and will be sitting in with Sorcha Dorcha, which will be a great treat for all.
We will be playing for the Woodside St. Patricks Day Parade Banquet on March 11, I will put a post up with detales soon.
All the best
Larry

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 01:11 PM

Nice list Aldus...

But you can keep Mr "Askme I'mfaggot"... If he was more than a half way decent fiddler than maybe I could ignore his 2 year old antics... but I know plenty of people that could play him into the ground... And I often wish they would!

And as far as the Rankin women go... well... I can sing through my nose too...

Just Blowing Steam... Don't take it personal eh!

;-)

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: GUEST,aldus
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 12:23 PM

I agree about Ian Tyson...some of us in the east are alive and well. Also. I would suggest a Canadian List would be incomplete without.......Laura Smith, Mary Jane Lamond, Rita and Mary Rankin,The Barra MacNiels, Natalie MacMaster,The misguided Ashley MacIssac and of Course, Loreena MacKennitt. I also love The Waterson Carthy Albums, Liza Carthy, Delores Keane. I've just bought a Kate Rusby album and I must say I was a bit disappointed. Perhaps it will grow on me. Lots of Great names on peoples suggested list...wish I knew more about some of these artists..Perhaps some suggestions as to best albums ?

P.S. I don't understand thus "guest" thing .

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: Peg
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 11:38 AM

Hey Larry! Great commercial! I have not forgotten that we should hook up when I come to NYC and jam...I will be there the weekend of February 19-21...will you be around??? Any performances happening?

and, oh, yeah, too add to this list of great suggestions: Geoff Bartley (who has co-written some great songs with John Gorka)

and some great Celtic-flavored folky acts that I like that have not been named yet (unless I missed 'em):

Anam Patrick Street (old and young) Shantalla Kila (former Dead Can Dance instrumentalists)

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: InOBU
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 07:51 AM

Thanks Mary!:
It was great to see you this weekend, and I agree that there were a lot of folks who I expect we will be listing among our favorites over the next years. There was a song about racial profiling, I will have to go over my tape, I hope I have the name of the author and a tape of the song, it was about a buinessman being roughed up by cops, as he was geting into his BMW, because he fit the profile of a white collar criminal. It was pure wonderful.
All the best
Larry

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: GeorgeH
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 07:33 AM

OK, canoer, with that interest, some "names" from the UK to look out for (mainly not very new!!) are:

Roy Bailey (look especially for his collaboration with Tony Benn, MP - "The Writing on the Wall - a history of dissent)

Martin Carthy

Robb Johnson

Dick Gaughan

Pete Coe

Ron Kavanagh (ok, so his origins are Irish but his concerns go much wider than Irish issues)

Also a "must" is the Richard Thompson produced "Hard Cash" CD - an expanded soundtrack from a TV programme about "the world of work" from a worker's perspective which our beloved "public service" BBC made and then lacked the balls to broadcast; it has fine performances from a varied range of artists.

And if you can find them - the double tape release made as a benefit for the last UK miners' strike (possibly under the title of "Raise your banners" but I need to check; certainly released by Fuse). Not as uniformly good as "Hard Cash" but even more varied in content.

Happy (and thoughtful) listening!

George

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: GUEST,canoer
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 02:53 AM

What a great batch of new names! Thanks everyone. Am new to the 'Cat but ... think I'll stick around. My first love is labor/movement stuff, and it's way nice to see some kindred out there.

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 01:31 AM

Let me add the names of some younger performers: Eliza Carthy, Natalie McMaster, and Tim Eriksen/Cordelia's Dad.

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 12:42 AM

Well, Here's a second endorsement for Larry Otway's band, Sorcha Dorcha. I heard him this weekend at the People's Music Network gathering in Queens, NYC, with just ONE of his bandmates, and they were great. Larry writes GREAT protest songs, as do many other contemporary songwriters, and others are keeping the old songs fresh and alive.

Other noted "Protest singers" who were among the many folks at the PMN gathering include Charlie King, Bev Grant, Faith Petric, Pete Seeger, Pat Humphries, Patricia Shih, Terry Kitchen, the Disabled in Action Singers, and Professor Louie.

Other members of PMN who were not in attendence at this winter's gathering include: Utah Phillips, Kim and Reggie Harris, Fred Small, Jane Sapp, Bob Blue, Priscilla Herdman, and Ruth Pelham.

Noteworthy non-PMN-member "protest singers" include Guy Carawan, Tracy Chapman, Alix Dobkin, Ronnie Gilbert, Magpie, Holly Near, Tom Paxton, Peggy Seeger, Sweet Honey in the Rock, and Chercy Wheeler.

Singing "Protest Songs" has not died out, it has spread into many areas besides anti-war songs, and civil right songs. Give a listen to some of the above and see.

For more info on the People's Music Network, which has 2 gatherings, winter and summer, each year, email Sarah Underhill at [e-mail]

Mary McCaffrey

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: InOBU
Date: 31 Jan 00 - 09:57 PM

I must say I am very fond of the New York Celtic band Sorcha Dorcha. They do mostly traditional Irish Scotish Welsh and Breton music, with some native American tunes and songs, and modern ballads in the Irish tradition on the subject of everything from forced assimilation of Natives in Canada and resistance to Hydro Quebecs dams, to the murder of Gypsies in the Czech Republic. They have really impressed me over the past few months.
If you are in the New York area, you should catch them at Bagatelle, 12 Saint Marks Place, (8th street between 2nd and 3rd Ave) Every Wednesday night 8 -10:30 and Sunday 6 - 8:30
Larry Otway
(this has been a shameless comercial endorcement from Larry Otway, Uilleann Piper - Sorcha Dorcha)

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: WyoWoman
Date: 31 Jan 00 - 09:00 PM

I certainly like Si Kahn, whose music I discovered after someone here on the 'Cat recommended him. Really deep social conscience and some wonderful lyrics.

Of course, in my day, we were motivated to write and think politically because the boys I went to high school with were being sent off to a foreign war and were dying all around us for reasons we couldn't discern or doubted heartily. Nothing like that to radicalize a generation.

Thanks, Canoe. Welcome to the 'Cat. Haven't seen you in these parts before, but then, I've been a bit scarce lately.

WW

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: sophocleese
Date: 31 Jan 00 - 08:01 PM

Eileen McGann and Tanglefoot are two more Canadian names very much worth mentioning. Actually let me just look at my CDs. Tom Lewis who sings songs of the sea, MacCrimmon's Revenge from Halifax who do wonderful instrumental music, Puirt a Baroque who combine East Coast music with Scottish Art music of two centuries ago, and I have to put in a word for a Barrie area musician Don Bray, he knows his way around a guitar and can write some great songs as well.

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: Sorcha
Date: 31 Jan 00 - 07:33 PM

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Aileen and Elkin thomas yet, currently living in Pennsylvania, I believe

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: GeorgeH
Date: 31 Jan 00 - 01:31 PM

Strikes me if Guest I would like to name names of some of those '60s folkies he/she was a fan of we'd be better able to make suggestions about who he/she should check out! There's such a wide spread of suggestions here (some of whom I love, some I'd go out of my way to avoid) that the overall list isn't likely to be much help!

G.

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: GUEST,canoer
Date: 31 Jan 00 - 12:02 PM

WyoWoman, thanks for supporting social awareness! It's tough when few respond to, for instance, Ochs-like songs for today. (And few writing them!!!) My humble opinion, the songs won't come until there's a big enough swell in consciousness to inspire and support them. Don't the songs of today just reflect the general individualistic "cocooning"/"be your own millionaire" atmosphere that's prevalent? I don't think the protest-song wave of the sixties took off until there were first sufficiently large movements for the musicians to work from. So, we'll just have to be part of the support for the next wave. Hopefully coming soon! Thanks for your post.

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: Bert
Date: 31 Jan 00 - 11:32 AM

Just listen to Mudcat Radio Wednesday night for lots of real Mudcatter music. It's the best there is.

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: GUEST,Gorgeous Gary
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 10:47 PM

I second the James Keelaghan and Garnet Rogers recommendations (and I'm not even Canadian...tho some of my best friends are!).

Other faves: Pete and Maura Kennedy, Schooner Fare, Artisan, Poor Clares (for the Celtic fans)

-- Gary

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: WyoWoman
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 10:32 PM

Peter, I don't quite understand the Wyoming reference, but I'm working at taking no offense. Have you ever actually BEEN out here?

Wyo Woman

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: Metchosin
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 10:07 PM

to add to the list Old Blind Dogs...first 4 or 5 albums, the pages are slow to come up but the band is worth the wait, click here

Also The Albion Band from the UK with a great Canadian connection with the song, Head Smashed in Buffalo Jump, off the Acousticity CD

Too many others to list.

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: GUEST,ddw
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 10:06 PM

How 'bout Joel Mabus? And I hear a guy named Rick Fielding is a bit better than pretty good....

david

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: GUEST,E-lizabeth
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 09:47 PM

These are some of my favourites: Lucinda Williams, Cozy Sheridan, Nanci Griffith, Chris Smither(his latest album - Drive You Home - is devastating), Laura Smith, Jesse Winchester, Gillian Welch, Kate Rusby & Kathryn Roberts. There is so much great music out there. Enjoy!

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 09:33 PM

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 06:01 PM

You might like to check out Pete Morton. Great songwriter with an individual style of delivery and one of my favourites.

All the best,

mcmoo

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 01:47 PM

Another Canadian List...

Good list Willie-O, but ya missed a couple... ;-)

Stephen Fearing... really fantastic songwriting, and man can he play !!! Also, sorta on the Fearing tack, check out Blackie And The Rodeo Kings, the Willie P. Bennet tribute band (LOL)

If ya like Don Ross, find any CD by Alex Houghton... WOW can this tiny girl play!!

Ian Tyson?!? Bollocs!! I'll pick Ian Tamblyn instead... But i never really like that "Cowboyography" thing... Ian Tamblyn ison of Canadas most prolific songwriters ever... One of my favorite singer-songwriters has always been Vancouvers Ferron... I thinks she's living somewhere near Seattle now on an island somewhere...

I can't believe I almost forgot the band Tamarack!!

Celticy stuff... The Irish Descendants, or as they are known out East, Those 4 Fat Guys!! LOL!! Great blokes...

Fear Of Drinking, again from out west... They put out a new CD a few months ago I think....

The List won't be complete unless I mention Mad Pudding...

Deffinatly, get The Paperboys!!

And for sorta a mix of celtic and contemp. folk, there's this guy in Windsor, who plays the pubs and bars... almost a tall guy with long red hair... I think his name is Quinton or something... He hasn't got a CD or anything, but from being with him at the bar over a few pints of Guinness I get the idea he'd love to do one... But he's kinda skint... putting his woman through school so she can get a real job and support his folk music habit... If ya see him under his grey fedora, request some James Keelaghan, or some Garnet Rogers... He's really good at that kind of stuff... then ask him to play one of his own tunes...

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: Midchuck
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 12:51 PM

Meaning no disrespect, but I can't see how "Willie-O" could list important modern Canadian folkies and omit Ian Tyson in his second incarnation.

The average eastern US folkie assumes he must have died after Ian and Sylvia broke up. There are places in Montana and Wyoming where if you can't sing anything off "Cowboyography," they'll beat you up and throw you out in the street.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: WyoWoman
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 12:09 PM

Ani diFranco isn't really a folkie, I don't suppose. But she's a helluva protest singer.

Liz Phair is crude, rude and angry, but she makes some good points about the relationship between men and women these days.

I'm concerned that so many of the singer-songwriters are writing about personal drama -- relationships, which are important, but not the end-all and be-all of human existence -- rather than social and political causes. The wage gap between the haves and have-nots in the U.S. is real and oppressive; the environment is on the ropes in many, but not all, places; our politicial process is for sale to the highest bidder; and on and on, but I don't see a lot of music being addressed toward those issues.

But... maybe it is and I'm not listening in the right direction. So I'll watch this thread and see what suggestions come up.

WW

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: GUEST,Ickle Dorritt
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 10:49 AM

For live performance UK try Denny Bartley and Chris Sherbourne, Jez Lowe, Dick Gaughan too mant to mention

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: Willie-O
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 10:42 AM

Canadian picks: the late Stan Rogers of course (d 1983), James Keelaghan, Connie Kaldor, guitarist Don Ross (if you like adventurous acoustic playing), Lennie Gallant, JP Cormier who I saw last night...and beyond Canada, if you want to understand who is influencing about a zillion young women singer-songwriters who don't sit down to play, try out Ani DiFranco.

Willie-O

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: Terry Allan Hall
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 09:39 AM

John Gorka, The Roches, Tish Hinojosa, Suzanne Vega, The Indigo Girls, Peter Case are just a few worth checking out.

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: Sunley
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 09:23 AM

For U.K. , Kate Rusby (often discussed in The Forum) has good selections on her CDs, as does Nacy Kerr/James Fagan. Jane Threfall & Carl Hogsden are good but shy of the recording studios.

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: JamesJim
Date: 29 Jan 00 - 10:26 PM

Si Kahn, John McCutheon, Sparky Rucker.

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 00 - 08:35 PM

The Trunch Tradition as maintained by Sid Kipper, obviously. "Norfolk and Good."

Subject: RE: Help: Good modern folkies
From: wildlone
Date: 29 Jan 00 - 07:57 PM

Show of Hands are not to bad.
I think Damien Barber is worth checking out.
If Tim van Eiken? keeps going the way he is he will be one of the names of the future.

Subject: Good modern folkies
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 00 - 07:44 PM

I am a great fan of the sixties folk revival, but am not too familiar with too many folkies who came on the scene in the 80s or 90's who is worth looking into?