Help: Figuring out chords to songs

Subject: Figuring out chords to songs
From: GUEST,Nobody
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 04:20 AM

I am trying to get better at figuring out the chords to songs by ear and was wondering if anyone here had any useful suggestions on how to find out the key of a song, how to tell if there is a capo being used, how to figure out alternate tunings, any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Subject: RE: Help: Figuring out chords to songs
From: Willie-O
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 10:35 AM

Well, to figure out the key, listen for the last chord in the song, (or in a verse, line or chorus, as long as it sounds resolved), and play the root note--there's your key. If it's a normal major key kind of song, it probably starts and ends on the tonic (key) chord, the IV and V chords are probably used--(C and D7 if the key is G), a minor chord is most likely the relative minor of the tonic (three half-tones down--so relative minor of G is Em), but may be the relative minor of the fourth or fifth (C=Am, D=Bm)

Another approach, if you're puzzled about something, is: pick out the melody line of the song. If there's a chord you can't figure out, the melody note is probably one note of the chord--and a chord that clashes unappealingly with that note can be ruled out.

Willie-O

Subject: RE: Help: Figuring out chords to songs
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 05:12 PM

its something you can either do, or you cant

Subject: RE: Help: Figuring out chords to songs
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 05:20 PM

Not so. Like most skills it appears on a gradient; you don't have perfect pitch until you learn a scale, and you don't learn to deconstruct any artistic compound until you have wrassled with the elements thereof (he said pomously:>)).

The more time you spend working out chords using the basics, or working over transcritpions or sheet music with annotated chords or even (if you read music) studying scale/note patterns, the more readily you will see the ineluctable progression of chording that goes behind a given tune.

It's like a chef eating gourmet food -- he sees immediately the ingredients and processes that must have gone into it. as a result of his own immersion in those processes -- ever since he fell into a vat of pot au feu!.

A

Subject: RE: Help: Figuring out chords to songs
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 05:44 PM

As far as determining whether someone is using a capo or not, that probably isn't too important: what is more important is deciding whether YOU will need a capo to play along with the record. When you learn to play in all the keys that can be played without barre chords, you will probably have a sense of the kinds of bass patterns characteristic of each of these keys, and hearing these bass patterns in music played in other keys will likely indicate that the player "transposed" from one key to the other using the capo so he could use his first position patterns higher up the neck. Many players can duplicate the patterns up the neck by barring, but fretted notes are usually not as clear and resonant as unfretted ones (of course, often accompaniments are played with barred chords specifically because the player wants to mute the resonance so the accompaniment doesn't overwhelm the lead).

--seed

Subject: RE: Help: Figuring out chords to songs
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 05:47 PM

Listen to da man!! You get it _said_, seed!

A

Subject: RE: Help: Figuring out chords to songs
From: GUEST,Paddy
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 06:03 PM

I find it just gets easier and better over time. A trick I always use is to listen for chord progressions that you have heard before. A lot of times for the Irish ballad it will follow the I-IV-I-II-V-I-IV-I-V-I As the normal rock/jazz ballad will go I-IV-I-V-IV-I Whereas the traditional stuff goes I-IV-I-V-I Hope this helps Paddy.

Subject: RE: Help: Figuring out chords to songs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 08:30 PM

I never remember chord sequences in my head, but my finger seems to get them. If I look at my fingers I can generally work out what chord I'm playing, and what key I'm playing in. It's probably something to do with left brains or right brains, because a lot of people obviusly seem to do it the other way round.

The only problems come up when we change to another tune, in a different key, and the fella playing the mandolin or whatever shouts out the new key, and I'm using a capo, and I have to work it out from there, counting frets and doing sums in my head.

But since I tend to hear the cry of "D" as "G" or "E", and the other way round, I've given up listening to what's shouted out. (And half the time he's wrong anyway), so I just do it by ear and finger, and it works out a lot better that way.

A chromatic electronic tuner is a great thing for working out what key they're playing in on a record. And it's great for working out what's your natural key for singing a song in on the night.

But if you're into trying to work out what they are doing on a record, remember, it's not just "what key they are playing in?", and "where's the capo?", you've got to reckon with all those funny tunings as well, which could mess up BSeed's excellent advice about listening to the bass pattern.

I think the best thing is to play as often as you can with other people, and you just get better at identifying keys.

Subject: Advice: Figuring out chords to songs
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 11:18 PM

Amos, you gave a good explanation in the "O Susanna" thread, and I hope you don't mind if I copy it over to here.
-Joe Offer-

C, G, G, C...F, C, G, C ought to do it.
I will take the liberty of adding that a good 80% of Western folk songs can be happily performed by mastering three or four chords in the key of your choice. These chords, traditionally, in the order of frequency of use, are the tonic, the subdominant, the dominant, and the relative minor.

Counting on the major scale the tonic is the first note (the one the key is named after). The subdominant is the fourth note of the scale (in the key of C, the subdominant is F) and the dominant is the fifth note of the scale. (In C, the dominant is G).

If you learn these three chords -- C, F and G -- you will be able to play a huge number of songs. If you add the relative minor, which is A minor in the key of C (the sixth note of the scale, but made minor), you can do another huge number of songs including "Oh, Donna" and "Teenager in Love", should you wish to.

In the key of G, the same triad is G, C and D. The relative minor is Em. Just for another example.

Work the song against these chords, and you will find you can work out a very large number of them for yourself just knowing this much. Add the second (such as D in the key of C) to use when bridging from (for example) C to G and you have another whole collection.

You will get a lot further singing and playing if you use these basics to work out accompaniments than you will seeking rote chord sequences to stick to, one song at a time.

Given enough fooling around with these sequences and you will be able to play by ear a large percentage of the time.

Happy Hunting!

A.

Subject: RE: Help: Figuring out chords to songs
From: MK
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 11:36 PM

I agree with Amos and Seed.

But I will add that it's tough when you're just starting out (whether on guitar or another polyphonic) instrument.

You need a mental frame of reference to corelate what you are hearing from others, with what is already familiar to you. And what is familar to you, can only come with experience as you develop as a player.

This is why the powers that be invented sheet music and tablature.

Subject: RE: Help: Figuring out chords to songs
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 11:42 PM

Joe:

I owe you a lot for Mudcat. You are welcome to any value my scribbles might bring; you may sell them, copy them, print them, and roll them into Hawaiian stogies if you so prefer. Anything I put on your server is a willing and happy donation to the community, and to you as one of its chief coordinators.

Aine, do you want to start a page of FAQ-like offerings covering topics such as transposing, basic chord useage, and other arcane principles of the folkies ' art? How to sing through your nose with a Southern accent, why and when to sound like Bob Dylan, sliding couplets, and singing in thirds are topics which someone might want to cover!

A

Subject: RE: Help: Figuring out chords to songs
From: GUEST,Neil Lowe
Date: 31 Jan 00 - 09:41 AM

What helps me (and this may be founded on illogical thinking - I'm no music theorist) is to know the scales for the various keys to determine what key a song is in.

To illustrate, I just learned a song called "Towering Fool" by Gov't Mule (I won't stick with protocol and post the lyrics because it's a blues/rock tune and probably not of interest to most members...but I will do so if requested). The chords in this song (not in order) are: Asus2; A7; B; C#m; C#mb6; E; G#; G#7. The scale for the key of A is: A; B; C#; D; E; F#; G#; A. All of the "root" chords for the song are found in the scale for the key of A, so the song is in the key of A. This particular song lacks one of those pesky key changes - so this method works well (for me, at least) in determining the key. Otherwise things get a little more complicated, but if your ear has heard thousands of songs, it's probably trained by now to notice a "difference" (hard to explain in technical terms...you notice it because the song suddenly sounds "higher" or "lower") that indicates a key change. If you can catch the key change, then you can apply the scales again after you've figured out the chords in the new key to determine what the new key is.

A lot of times the new key will be a full step higher or lower than the original key, e.g., if the above song were to change to a new key, it might go up to the key of B or down to the key of G. If the structure of the song remains the same (i.e., the chord intervals stay the same for the verse or the chorus or the bridge) then the chords in the new key will be a full step higher or lower than the chords in the original key.

Hope I didn't muddy the waters too badly.

Neil Lowe

Subject: RE: Help: Figuring out chords to songs
From: Gary T
Date: 31 Jan 00 - 10:45 AM

You did fine, Neil. At the root of understanding and mastering chord sequences, transposing, and related helpful skills and knowledge is KNOWING MAJOR SCALES. Virtually everything else is based on this, and it's a severe handicap to try to grasp some of it without a foundation in scales. Your example shows just one of the benefits.