Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: Jon W.
Date: 08 Feb 00 - 11:01 AM

No one has mentioned Barbara's parent's role in this. From the version I know best (Johnny Moynihan when he was with De Dannaan):

Get up, get up, her father said
Get up and go and see him
O father dear do ye not mind the time
You told me how to shun him?

Get up, get up, her mother said
Get up and go and see him
O mother dear do ye not mind the time
You told me how to slight him?

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 09 Feb 00 - 10:22 AM

This thread wandered through some interesting places. Isn't it just a little amazing that a song over 600 years old can still catch people's attention. There are probably a hundred reasons why people still have an interest in Barbara Allen, but one has to be that the story leaves out enough details to allow the imagination to complete the story. It certainly suggests many elements, depending upon one's perspective: a weak male, a cheating male, a devoted one, etc.; a hard-hearted woman, a slighted woman, a maligned woman, etc; a lover's quarrel that ended tragically; and the final, eternal reunion of two lovers as the red rose and the briar tied the knot, to name a few.

A storyteller, told the story of Barbara Allen, did not sing, but told the story at an Ozark Folk Center concert one night. After the show a dozen people were looking for a recording of the song. People still respond to the story.

As I said in the beginning this thread has wandered through some interesting places. I've enjoyed the trip.

A.

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 05:19 PM

I took a course in Folk Music 101 years ago and was told by the learned professor that all the clues point to Barbara's poisoning Willie and then herself. He slighted her in a bar. She was humiliated and furious. And his last words are "Be kind to Barbara Allan" in other words a warning, "Stay on her good side." It made no sense to me - why then did the rose and the briar grow together in true love? Then again, why would two healthy young people suddenly take to their beds and die?

I needed at least a C to pass the course so I fed it back to him on the final. The professor BTW did not know that "Follow The Drinking Gourd" was used by slaves to plan an escape. Don't think Folk Music was his specialty.

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: GUEST,Kim C
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 05:51 PM

Maybe she wanted to marry the house carpenter instead.

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: Abby Sale
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 08:27 PM

k/k: It's a rip-off from Thomson's Select Collection of Original Scottish Airs, vol 3 (1803) p 130. I agree it's more clear than most. Here he is named as Sir John Græm (Graem) in the west country.

"...ye made the healths gae round and round, / And slighted..."

seems clear to me...he offered individual toasts round the room but omitted her. This is somewhate different than the usual "You drank a health to the ladies all, / But slighted..."

She, likely 15 years old like most lovers, was insulted.

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: GUEST,player
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 07:36 PM

I just want to sing and play the song does anyone have the guitar chords?

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: Sorcha
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 07:47 PM

Chords here, transpose to suit yourself.

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: GUEST,jayohjo
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 08:43 PM

The version I sing, it seems to be quite simple:
"Do you remember last Saturday night, in the alehouse you were drinking? / You took a strange girl on your knee, and daunted Barbara Allen"
She loves him, he loves her but doesn't like to show it, he cheats (who knows to what extent...), she is broken-hearted but still proud, he dies, then she dies of remorse. Easy-peasy! jayohjo xx

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: GUEST,Jon G. Bartlett
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 03:22 AM

A great thread - thanks to all. I thought I'd pass on the verse I end the song on:

"The cock it crows at break of day/Just as the sun was rising/but ne'er a note will Barbara hear/for deeps the grave she lies in/For deep's the grave she lies in."

Isn't that nice? I prefer it to the "rose & briar" theme. It was made by Kirstie Shoolbraid, now of Saltspring Is., BC. The version I sing is from Murray Shoolbraid and it's essentially the Ransay "Tea Table Miscellany" version (with the repeating last line). Our aural ballad collection here (Vancouver Ballad Group) has dubbed 18 versions: quite a few, except whern you remember that Bronson found (and printed) 198 versions. Without actually doing any thinking about it, I've always assumed that the "bloody sark" of Ewan and others is evidence of his having, and dying from, TB. I can't say I'm attracted to the Graves witch idea: I think it raises more questions than it answers. I'm off right now to read what the estimable Bruce O. has on his always fascinating site.

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: GUEST,Jon G. Bartlett
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 03:25 AM

And what is this "guest" thing? I thought I'd fixed that! Is there some place to "sign in" that I'm missing?

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: RoyH (Burl)
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 11:16 AM

What a great thread this is. I have known the Barbara Allan ballad since I was a child. My dear Auntie Nellie, 100 years old last November, used to sing it. It has always been one of my favourite songs. I have sung it hundreds of times and watched it work it's magic on all kinds of audiences. Not because of anything special about my singing but because of something intrinsic within the song that calls to people and makes them respond. I have often wondered why. I have even asked audiences what they see in a song where the heroine is snooty, the hero is a wimp, and they both die in the end? Nobody knows! And yet this song has lasted for centuries, spread wherever the English have taken their language. Samuel Pepys knew it, and my Auntie Nellie knew it. I know it, in several versions, and I LOVE it. WHY? I cannot give you a definite answer, but let me tell you this: Some years ago I had a most unusual gig. It was to sing at the annual dinner of a businesswomen's association, rather like the Rotary. They had grown tired of the usual speakers, hairdressers and floral arrangers etc, and thought a folksinger 'might make a nice change'. I know this because Madame Chairman told me so. They were a trifle surprised that I sang without any instrument, but listened attentively and seemed happy. At one point in the evening I decided to sing Barbara Allan, which went down very well. There was that wonderful moment of silence after the last line, as if everyone drew breath at the same time, followed by the best applause of the night. 'Oh, you liked that', I said. 'Yes'was the answer. I then said 'Why?....going into my bit about wimps and dying. 'It's beautiful' said one woman. I agreed, but said 'It's about dying for love. That's a bit silly isn't it. Would you die for love?' There was a general shaking of heads and murmurs of 'No'. Then one woman said 'Maybe not, but when a love thing breaks down, sometimes you feel as though you're dying, or for a while you wish you could die' This drew a murmur of assent from all around. I thought about that for a long time. I've never forgotten it although it was over twenty years ago. Maybe the reason for Barbara Allan's universal appeal is that it evokes memories of ones own rejections and hopeless love affairs? Perhaps it recalls that bitter-sweet feeling when someone you wish to love you will only kiss your cheek? Maybe? I can only speculate. There's no question though that Barbara Allan is very special song, that comes with some exquisite melodies. Did I tell you I loved it? I really do. Burl.

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 11:31 AM

The "rose wound 'round the briar" has always been an obvious explanation of a very simple fact. Ever after, this is WHY THE ROSE HAS A THORN !

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 11:56 AM

Any number here have wondered at the popularity of this song, why it has survived so long, and suchlike. I am ashamed of you all! This is one of the most beautiful melodies in all of folk. Surely that has some signifigance.

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 01:11 PM

You're on the money, burl. It's a classic ballad, almost all of which contain a bit of hyperbole (such as dying for love).

Two young people in love with each other but too shy to say anything, a glitch in communication, hurt pride carried a bit too far, then tragedy. That's it.

Witches? Feminist interpretations? Nah! Sometimes things are really pretty straightforward, and over-interpreting them just muddies the water.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: BK
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 12:27 AM

I love it too, for some reason haven't sung it in quite some time; have to remidy that.

Cheers, BK

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 01:17 AM

-----"O' 'twasna this the tither day, doon in yon tavern drinkin'--ye bade the healths gang roond an' roond, while Barbara Allen slichtin". Sir John Graeme o' the West countrie was the fella on the deathbed. Samuel Pepys, the English diarist, mentions having heard the song in Scotland.The origins of the song are nevertheless obscure--certainly some where on the British islands----even if the reasons for the lassie's "refusal" aren't! [One of the best renditions I have heard was by Nic Jones, 'way back in the sixties.]

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: GUEST,GrammarPolice
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 01:26 AM

hair-trimmings and nail-pairings, and then gradually waste it over a candle, sticking pins into parts that the witch wanted to injure most". I don't know whether Robert Graves is right or not, [Roberto]
BUT I'm sure that Graves never said "nail pairings" ~ here's the folk trad @ work.
Of course Graves said parings.
th[schwa]GrammarCops

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: SharonA
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 05:13 PM

*warning: thread creep ahead*

Grammar Cops theme song: "What are you going to do? What are you going to do when they come for you, naughty boys, naughty boys?" ;^)

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: lamarca
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 05:55 PM

I once read a story where the author conflated Barbara Allen with The Brown Girl ("I am as brown as brown can be", in the DT here) as being the the same story told from two different points of view. In The Brown Girl, the young man initially scorns her because she is "too brown" ie, is tanned from doing manual labor, and therefore of a lower class than him. By the time he realizes his mistake, she wants nothing to do with him and scorns him on his death bed.

There are some who hypothesize that "Barb'ry" = Barbary, or a dark-complected woman; if Barbara Allen was a Romany, it adds a twist to the story. Martin Carthy talks a bit about this in the liner notes for the "Waterson:Carthy" album, Broken Ground.

It was an interesting theory, as the stories do mesh well. I like Frankie Armstrong's version of The Brown Girl, and my favorite version of Barbara Allen is the one sung by Caroline Paton, which she taught to KathWestra - "It was in and about the Martinmas time..." - although Art's cowboy version with its image of Barbara making "all the boys ride saddle sore" is a close second...

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 08:52 AM

Burl, thank you for that tale which goes some way to explaining the reason for the enduring popularity of this ballad. It does seem to me as well that a lot of the power of the song comes from its obscurity - not everything is explained clearly - so that it has a richness that allows many different interpretations, while still keeping an air of mystery about it.

However I'd like to pay a belated tribute to one of the finest singers of this song: Phoebe Smith, the Traveller singer from Woodbridge in Suffolk. She died, aged 88, on 8 November 2001 and with her death passed a great tradition of singing. Her voice can be heard on some of the Topic Voice of the People series of CDs, but for a spell-binding 11 minute rendition of Barbara Allen, listen to the Veteran CD VT136CD The Yellow Handkerchief.

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: rea
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 09:49 AM

You know, this has no root in the historical, but about 5-6 years ago Charles Vess (an artist) did a series of comics call "Book of Ballads and Sagas." In it, it was William who had been bewitched, and the only was to save him and ensure he wasn't damned forever was for Barbry to deny him her love - even tho she really loved him. Once she had saved him, she herself died, from a broken heart and the emotional strain. There's nothing in the song to suggest it, but I like this version best. If you sing it "Out of ONE grave grew a red red rose, and out of the OTHER a briar" it leaves it open as to who was the false love and who the true.

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: RoyH (Burl)
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 09:50 AM

Matthew, you're right. Sad about Phoebe. I recommend her singing to anybody. Her Barbara Allan was indeed a highlight. BTW let me say a word of praise here for Veteran and their wonderful catalogue of genuine traditional music. Check them out on www.veteran.co.uk

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: Tig
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 12:20 PM

I am sorry but since her stroke last June my mother's speech has been too bad to give the definative answer to this question. However I would like to report she has now been happily married to my father for over 50 years - so she found a good man without any ill feeling for NOT visiting sick beds in time.

(Mum's maiden name was Barbara Allen!!!!)

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From:
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 11:11 PM

OK, I'm not sure if this fits the thread subect, but I'm in a folk music class, and I heard a version of this song by Emma Dusenbury, and there is a line that is to the effect of "he might have lived if I had shown him my endeavour" At least that's what it sounds like. The problem is that line doesn't make sense to anyone in the class, and I can't find that verse in any lyrics on the web, so if any of you have any ideas about the line, e-mail me at [e-mail] THANKS!

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: toadfrog
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 11:43 PM

Bronson wrote an essay on Barbara Allen, which I'm inclined to believe. (I anticipate Malcom will tell me I'm wrong, as usual) It puts quite a different slant on the question.

According to Bronson, the earliest known version was reported by Pepys, who heard a Scots woman sing it. That would make it, not 600, but maybe 360 years old. According to his account, in the earliest version Barbara had no motivation whatsoever, including not jealousy. John, or William, or whoever, was dying, she went slowly to his bedside, he died, she saw his corpse, and laughed. She also then died.

Apparently people were not pleased, because motives creep in in later versions. She is jealous. He drank to other women. And in later versions, she becomes remorseful. But not in the original one. And apparently the original one does not say "witch," either.

But Mudcatters were not the first to worry about the motivation; that's been around from day one. I think the real mystery is in accounting for the popularity of the song.

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 19 Jan 02 - 01:16 AM

Bronson's analysis (part of his essay All This for a Song? 1962) is, as Toadfrog says, sensible and well-informed; unlike Robert Graves' fanciful imaginings which, like most of his comments on traditional song, appear to owe as much to herbal tea as they do to scholarship.

I don't know if Mrs. Knipp the actress, from whom Pepys heard the song, was herself Scottish; he said "...in perfect pleasure I was to hear her sing, and especially her little Scotch song of Barbary Allen."  This (1666) is the earliest known reference to the song; as Bronson points out, it is unlikely to be older than the mid 17th century, and likely gained greater currency through stage performance, and through the printing of a Scottish text in Ramsay's Tea-Table Miscellany of 1723/4, and of that text and another from an (earlier) English broadside of Pepys' time in Thomas Percy's immensely popular Reliques of Ancient English Poetry ( 1765).  It continued to circulate on broadsides, in reasonably consistent forms, until the final years of the 19th century.

As Toadfrog says, the earliest known version of the song does not speculate on motivation, though later versions introduce it.  Traditional song tends not to examine underlying motive, being concerned primarily with pure narrative, and it's usually a mistake to try to impose modern sensibilities upon such things; they should really be accepted for what they appear to be at face value.  Of course, the obsession with unearthing "deeper" meanings is not new, but it has always led to more misunderstandings than revelations.

Bruce Olson has the early text at his website, as he mentioned long ago when this thread was young:  Barbara Allen's cruelty,  and a later, very close, broadside text can be seen at  :

Barbara Allen's cruelty: or the Young man's tragedy  Printed in Newcastle; date and printer unknown.

There are of course many other broadside examples at the Bodleian site, mostly 19th century.

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 19 Jan 02 - 09:34 AM

I'm not sure who first said it, but the subtile should be: "The Bitch and the Wimp"

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 19 Jan 02 - 11:41 AM

I just started reading this wonderful thread!

I can't add to the general discussion but this:

Many years ago I heard a truly intense version of this song by Billy Chips (Chippet, I think) Art Thieme should know him. so if Art can check THIS out:

Didn't BC record this back in the early 60's, possibly over at the Folk Center?

In any case Barbara Allen has been a favorite since I first heard Burl Ives do it back when I was ten years old or so. My folks gave me a "Little Golden Record" of American folk music. I don't care for Burl Ives' voice EXCEPT on that song!

CB

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 19 Jan 02 - 07:23 PM

What an excellent thread! I've often wondered why Barbara Allen wouldn't give Sweet William the time of day, as well, and then laughs at his corpse in front of the whole village!

I've loved the song all my life, but never heard the verse about him buying all the other girls pints (or red wine!) and slighting her; now I'm surprised she didn't just kill him right there in the pub! ;~)

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: toadfrog
Date: 19 Jan 02 - 10:20 PM

I recall, back in the 50's Pogo Possum, together with the porcupine, and I think Owl or Albert, singing (with the song baloon edged in Deepest Black):

As she walked up yon high, high hill,
She heard the dead-bell ringing
And ilka jow the dead-bell gi'ed,
It cry'd WOE to Barbara Allen!

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: michaelr
Date: 20 Jan 02 - 03:10 PM

Thread creep alert! I happened to see Charles Vess mentioned above, which sent me to dig in my bookshelf. I would like to direct peoples' attention to a wonderful fairy tale he illustrated (the story is by Neil Gaiman) called STARDUST. (Young Tristran Thorn has sworn an oath: to fetch a fallen star for the most beautiful girl in his village. The star he seeks has fallen far past his home into the neighboring land of Faerie...)

This is a series of 4 slender volumes, published in 1997 by DC Comics - an absolutely lovely story, with tons of gorgeous illustrations in the vein of Victorian childrens' books. Highly recommended!

Love, Michael

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: GUEST,somebody
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 06:59 PM

haha

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: GUEST,Lori
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 03:53 AM

It never really mattered to me,though I did wonder. I never heard the version about witches,laughing,or pubs More importanty though, was that in the version I learned,the red rose grew ROUND the brier-true love doesn't get any more devoted than that-not till death do us part,but for time and all eternity! As a preteen I could only dream of someone loving me that much-and so very unconditionally. Who knew that other people obsess over lifes little questions as much as we do. We have loved browsing through this thread. I have been singing this song since 5th grade music class-1976. Also that year I did some chores for a realtor who paid me $5.00 and a box full of old records. One of them had a recording of Barbara Allen. When my son was born 14 years ago, I sang it to him as a lullaby. I had forgotten some of the words,but not the tune nor the concept. For years we have vowed to locate the words or a recording. For some unknown reason my son decided to look it up tonight. We have been up late for hours reading,laughing,crying,and singing together...Thank you for creating a memory for us that will last forever just as this song has! Further comments can be directed to my email if so [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 08:55 AM

On 2nd March 2004 9.09 pm I posted about this on the subject "Origins of: Barbara Allen, is there a story?"

Perhaps I can be forgiven for repeating one parargraph:

"The last word on someone dying for love was possibly said by George Bernard Shaw. When a friend asked him if he knew of a case of someone dying for love, he replied that he had known a man who was deeply in love with a girl, and was rejected by her. His friend said "And did he die of it?" Shaw replied, "Yes, he did - fifty years later". (Probably an apocryphal story in my opinion)."

Perhaps we are in danger of taking this all a bit too seriously; after all it is an old folksong which even if based on an actual event has probably been greatly embellished or exaggerated. In the Peggy Seeger version (my favourite, though to be honest I have heard very few others) the man/wimp ("Sweet William") denies he slighted Barbar(y) Allen as he says "I drank a toast to the ladies round, and my love to Barbary Allen". Perhaps Barbara (aka "The Bitch") was too busy gossipping to hear. As this apparently happened "last Saturday night" he seems to have taken to his bed and pined away pretty quickly.

When over 100,000 people have died recently as a result of the tsunami in Asia, we should get a sense of perspective on these things.

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 09:39 AM

GUEST John G. Bartlett said, in part:

Without actually doing any thinking about it, I've always assumed that the "bloody sark" of Ewan and others is evidence of his having, and dying from, TB.

For my part, without actually doing any thinking about it, I've taken the "bloody sark" to mean that he stabbed himself.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 12:02 PM

Perhaps C. Fox Smith was thinking of this ballad when she composed her sailortown poem "Limehouse Reach":

So, 'tis a long good-bye to Limehouse Reach,
And a last good-bye to you;
A feller's a fool to die for love,
Which I don't mean to do;
There's girls as sharp in every port
From here to Cal-la-o:
But I would have loved you so, my dear,
I would have loved you so!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: Joybell
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 05:41 PM

This is such a long and interesting thread. I may have missed it but I sing a couple of lines in the death bed scene that add to the confusion. Can't remember where I picked them up but it was over 40 years ago, before I was serious about studying the songs I sing. I believe they turned up in Australia.

They are:
"Put your hand unto my side
It's there you'll find a warrant
It's there you'll find my blood-red shirt
I die for Barb'ry Allen."

Warrant? What warrant? What does it say? Has the poor man been stabbed? In a duel? By his own hand? Was he not a wimp after all, but a wounded and bleeding man?
Sorry if I'm just covering old ground. Maybe these lines are quite common. Great discussion. Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: belter
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 06:38 PM

In an anthropology class, I had to read an African folk tale that resembled the story of Barbara Allen. I wondered if there was any relation. My fuzzy memory seams to recall that it involve a young warrior and maid from enemy tribes dieing in an attempt be together. They are buried miles apart, and plants growing from their graves form a bridge between them. In that tale the deaths were by natural causes.
In some cultures such mysterious deaths as in most versions of Barbara Allen would be seen as a sure sign of magic at work. I always thought she poisoned him and committed suicide. Sometimes I think his friends were unfair to her seeing as how she's willing or at least expecting to die for him as well. Other times I think that if she murdered him, that isn't very romantic, and she got what she deserved.

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 08:10 PM

Joybell, I interpret the "warrant" to be his will.   And I believe he stabbed himself over her.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 03:40 PM

Desdemona, you have not 'read with understanding!' The verse says,

You drank the health of the ladies all round,
And you slighted Barbara Allen.

The imagined SLIGHT was why she refused. Simple! The old "woman scorned" feeling.

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: Joybell
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 04:53 PM

Uncle Dave-O, Of course. A will would make sense. And stabbing himself would be a manly way to go.

I can't help always hearing similarities with the girl in the "Ale House in Yonders Town"/"Tavern in the Town" and many other connecting songs of the "Died for Love" type. In that one verse about the "slight". It's a popular idea. Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: Megan L
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 09:17 AM

tosh and fiddle sticks poor babs was visited the next evening by one of Sweet Williams (Does this not give you a clue folks) pals she honestly thought he was trying to woo her when he suggested he cook supper.

The moral is lassies diny let a man cook ye a mushroom omlette fur supper. especially no if he's cried Sweet fitswilliam.

She wis done in poor lass

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 09:24 AM

She didn't like young Willie's?
G.

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 09:47 AM

A grade 10 student of mine last year suggested that the young man had not deliberately "slighted" Barbara Allen; rather, he was too shy to toast her because of his love for her, and she misinterpreted this as a slight. Needless to say, I join enthusiastically in the group contempt for this thoroughly contemptible young man.

Continuing on the theme of misinterpretation, I only recently heard the version in which Barb laughs at the corpse - my take on it is that she was shocked and distraught, and this expressed itself in a kind of hysterical, thoroughly-inappropriate manner: laughter. This was taken of course as evidence of her hard-heartedness. (See what I mean about the theme of misinterpretation ... !).

On another note: I have a thoroughy academic interest in sex. Here's another bit of text that needs some interpretation: "This explanation fits the history of the sexual pattern in recent times in the English-speaking world." That's from Lomax/Kennedy, above. What the heck is it supposed to mean?

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: Scoville
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 10:58 AM

A grade 10 student of mine last year suggested that the young man had not deliberately "slighted" Barbara Allen; rather, he was too shy to toast her because of his love for her, and she misinterpreted this as a slight. Needless to say, I join enthusiastically in the group contempt for this thoroughly contemptible young man.

I always assumed that was the case and thought that the misunderstanding was fairly explicit in the lyrics. I never thought he was contemptible, though (somewhat wussy, maybe). My impression was that she was the local belle and perhaps had a reputation for being haughty and contemptuous since she more or less had her pick of the local men, and then got taken down a peg.

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 11:03 AM

BTW, my next door neighbour is Barbara Allen.
G

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 11:10 AM

"I always assumed that was the case and thought that the misunderstanding was fairly explicit in the lyrics."

Of course, there seem to be so many different versions floating around that it's hard to say if we're talking about the same lyrics - but I don't see that it's "explicit" in the versions that have her saying that she was "slighted" when he was toasting the ladies, and then give no further comment on that bit of business. Seems to me that's wide open to all kinds of interpretation ... No doubt I'm quite thick-headed, but I find the interpretation in question, whether on the part of my student or yourself, to be rather subtle.

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: Scoville
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 11:13 AM

I didn't say it wasn't open to interpretation, only that I thought (my interpretation) that that was the most obvious situation.

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 11:34 AM

Well, at the risk of nit-picking, belabouring a point, and flogging a life-challenged horse, you did use the word 'explicit', which would suggest to me that it was your opinion that the interpretation in question was the one intended by the anonymous author.

By the way, when I say "rather subtle", I don't mean TOO subtle. On the contrary, I find what I take to be the subtlety of that interpretation appealing. I'm just surprised that someone else would find it "explicit" and "obvious", since it had never occurred to ME before ...

Subject: RE: Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 12:12 PM

100