Lyr Req: Violate Me in Violet Time (Wrubel, Wrubel

Subject: Violate me in the Violet time
From: GUEST,Allan S.
Date: 11 Feb 00 - 02:05 PM

First thanx to everyone who helped me with "I wish I was a facinating bitch" Now I have an other song?? I', researching As follows

Violate me in the Violet time In the vilest was that you know My life is surely becomming oblivious I need a man who is wild and Lacivious Ravishly savagely lavishy ravage me On me no mercy bestow

Is there more to this song, poem, ????? Tune? what??

THe note I have dates back to the 1950's

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: Ana
Date: 11 Feb 00 - 02:18 PM

I think this sounds like a yukky song. It would seem to be perpetuating the myth that women enjoy being raped. Sing it at your peril!! Ana

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: Jacob B
Date: 11 Feb 00 - 02:36 PM

I've heard of this song once before - when I stumbled upon it in the DT database. Click here for the song.

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Feb 00 - 03:49 PM

Nice tune, but I'd have to agree with Ana. Tune would be even better with totally new and unrelated lyrics, in this woman's opinion.

katlaughing

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Feb 00 - 04:00 PM

Exactly why are you researching these types of, uh, ..."fascinating" songs? Interesting selections.......

Spaw

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: GUEST,Allan S.
Date: 11 Feb 00 - 04:56 PM

Gosh ladies I'm sorry i'm not PC for this century This was from a lady yes a lady who I knew in the bibical sense whgen I was in college. I continue to quote from her letter " Will be home this coming Wed. at 4 in the afternoon and will be home all day thursday. If you have time I'd like very much to see you" Yours K..... So you see I'm not a dirty old man. Just remembering a dear old love who has passed

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: GUEST,BuskerBard
Date: 11 Feb 00 - 08:47 PM

Personally, this ditty recalls the same playful style as the "Masochism Tango." Keep a sense of humor, kids!

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 11 Feb 00 - 08:50 PM

If anyone insist that all songs conform to present sensibilities, I humbly submit that folk song is not the ideal field to frolic in.

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: Ana
Date: 11 Feb 00 - 09:06 PM

Hmmmm bit of thread creep opportunity here!! Great stuff love it. I've no problem with research of any of these songs, but still stand by my former comment of "sing it at your peril". I think studying lyrics such as these is fascinating in terms of understanding our social history. It would be interesting to know what songs have been lost/discarded along the way, and what the words or sentiments might have said about humanity at that time. For instance (and at the risk of being totally provacative) I wonder if many songs referring to wogs/niggers (and any other ethnic/racial group) have sunk into obscurity through the last 50 years (and if so, is that sad?). If you think I'm just being PC - how about a survey. Are you white, male and middle class? Nothing like a good stir to start the weekend rolling. Ana

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Feb 00 - 09:38 PM

It'd wouldn't serve any purpose if we weren't able to make comments which reflect on how certain songs may make us feel. I feel that is a valid part of the folk tradition, too. We've had similiar discussions on song appropriatness and the fact that some people do change what they consider to be offensive lyrics.

I wasn't calling for censorship, I was stating my take on the song, as a woman. Ana makes some interesting points. Thera re plenty of bawdy songs in the DT and many, Ana, that do preserve the terms you mention. As, the Lester Levy site, which is in the LINKS at the top of the page, has the original sheet music available, for online viewing & printing, of scads of old songs with such terms.

I say you guys might lighten up a little, too. What Ana & I both said, was pretty mild.

katlaughing

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: GUEST,Allan S.
Date: 11 Feb 00 - 09:49 PM

Gosh didn't mean to upset anyone Yes the lady and I were lovers ANd she would always sing that song. I lost tract of her when I was in the service.I located her after 40 years. By then she didn't have much time left. A batch of old friends got together for one last hoot and a chance to see her. Breast cancer is not an easy way to go. So you see the song always reminded us of her. From a historical point of view I hate to see words changed yet I certainly understand that they can be offensive to certain ethnic groups then I can understand changing them. In the Yellow rose of Texas the line "She's the sweetest rose of color this darkey ever saw" In the 1850 I dont believe it was ment to be offesive But part of a love song. Leadbelly sang the song BLACK GIRL The words "Black Girl" are no longer sung yet recentally on the TV there was a "African American" who insisted he was not an AFrican American But a BLACK AMERICAN. You can't please everyone Words such as Nigger, Kike .Wop are offensive however I have to find them in Trad Folk music.

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Feb 00 - 10:08 PM

In an Oz story there's a group of people who are so fragile-ly made that at the slightest tremor of the wind or of upset feelings, they just completely disintegrate and must then wait in a heap until someone comes along and reassembles them. Some of the topics people post here seem to have that effect, they start on a hot-button and sure enough people's buttons are pushed. Then the poster has to play defense to clear up what wasn't meant to hurt. I guess on a good day people work through the upset and learn a whole lot about themselves/each other/the world and that's a good thing.

People will use all kinds of things to refer to themselves that are quite rude when applied from someone else. Sometimes this is a device to wave a flag about some way we've been hurt-- like survivors of sexual abuse will sometimes act out sexually because they can only use the behavior to point toward a problem they don't know how to talk about. Or blondes will tell blonde jokes on themselves and sure enough, they are acting out being treated like dumb blondes and are really hurt but don't say so, ha ha.

I think most of us are mature enough to realize when we may be posting something that will push buttons. Can't we just preface such postings with a word or two about what brought the thing to mind? Then when they are read, we start from a position of listening like a friend instread of reacting to a slap in the face. For instance, I've read some old threads where some of you really sling fastballs and it's hard to tell the knuckle balls (jokes) from the hardballs aimed to hit and hurt when it's people I don't know. Is it a fight or are they having a good happy mudwrestle? Do I call the cops, join in, or walk away? I have corresponded by now with some of these slingers in a personal way since joining, and I know them at least well enough to see their humor. But if someone who isn't known in that way posts... well I guess xenophobia will never go away.

I'm not looking for a PC community but I am looking for one where people start from a position of respect and then behave in such a way that respect is returned. And face it-- some postings, however scholarly or loving, are going to jump on someone's sore toes. So let's handle it nicely when someone says their toes hurt, OK?

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Feb 00 - 11:25 PM

Sheesh, you guys! I was just making a two line comment on what I thought of the lyrics, from a "nowadays" woman's point of view. That's all.

No offence taken, Allan, and, I hope none given; no need to defend your request or explain your motivation.

I am sorry about your friend, but glad you all had the chance to see her and have "one last hoot".

kat

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Feb 00 - 05:30 AM

Well if we aren't a "PC community" on the Mudcat, what are we?

But I hate the way the term PC in its other sense (no PC49, we aren't talking about you) is thrown around so freely. What is involved here isn't being "politically" anything, it's taking note as to whether we're using language in ways that are respectful and courteous, and that is always important, and always has been. The words change, is all, and we start to become aware of people who've been ignored previously.

So I imagine if I was an "African American" I'd prefer to be called "black", partly to express a sense of a link with other black people who aren't any kind of American, or any kind of African for that matter. And I'd likely enough want to appropriate a word like "nigger" for my own use, and in solidarity to previous generations. But that wouldn't mean I'd like hearing it used by some racist, or as a "joke".

In the same way, I reckon there are women who could sing a song like this one in a way that wasn't demeaning or hurtful, and was funny. And Allen's friend sounds like one of them. But I can't see a man being able to.

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Feb 00 - 07:06 AM

Well, all I know is after my last posting I logged off with my jaw all set feeling like we should all stop obsessing, and considering not coming back, and then felt like an asshole all night, and then considering not coming back because I'd been so dumb. These subjects just are so hard to think about well. (I don't to be reassured about this, I'm just illustrating a point.)

But what else I know is that none of you "made" me feel that way. When the Violet posting first popped up I looked at it and decided not to re-open it because it just looked like stuff that would take everyone down a bad road. I didn't want to go there and I didn't want to see any of my new friends there either. Then last night I gave into the sick fascination these subjects can hold, and took a peek, and got all wound up. Not only did I feel like an asshole, I felt like a stupid one, and I prize the clarity of thought I can sometimes achieve pretty highly. I worked damn hard to get these little gray cells working smoothly.

So I think the real "Fascinatin' Bitch" in the Mudcat is the stuff we know we don't really want to indulge in, and do anyway, because we just can't leave it alone. This thread was one of mine, and I'll be back to the 'Cat, but not in this thread.

Finally, I know now why I want guests to register after a certain amount of time visting. It's because when they don't, the big sisters and big brothers (lowercase!!!) at the 'Cat can't drop by in the person's personal page and share a few tips on making the most of the opportunity to be with eveyone here. I've had a few of those and don't I wish I could send one to Allan S? When we have that opportunity, we don't have to "vote" for a thread by dwelling on it and in it, just to respond to the first poster. And we wouldn't have to respond and then watch lots of other people dive into the fray when they could be out there finding new songs we would all like, and playing for people out there who need to hear us.

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: sophocleese
Date: 12 Feb 00 - 08:58 AM

As a teenager I used to sing in this in a sweet delicate soprano, looking as soulful as church soloist. Gradually though I came to see less humour in it, and I haven't sung it in a while. Its one of those songs that is not universal and depends upon the audience and the singer. It looks ripe for an a reply or updated version to be written of it.

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: Ana
Date: 12 Feb 00 - 02:40 PM

I must admit to being very bemused about the reactions to my comment. I uncertain as to how it's drawn the self protective stances, when my expression was directed purely at the meaning of the words and considering likely audience reaction.

I echo Kat - Sheesh guys....

Ana

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Feb 00 - 03:14 PM

Yeah, gotta' admit I missed that myself......I just thought they were comments.......Oh well, seems to have worked out.

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 00 - 03:30 PM

I'm glad this thread came up, if just for the discussion of the folk/lore/songs/stuff I bet we've all come across in our lives that can't/shouldn't necessarily be performed in concert, but give insight into folks' worldviews, both past and present. Some are now patently offensive, some make the audience uncomfortable because the listener finds the joke funny, but thinks that they shouldn't (like Utah Phillips' Chinese/Greek joke). Or how about something that was funny, but might not be funny anymore; like the song that Friends of Fiddler's Green recorded (I think) about Princess Diana? Personally, I think that "Violate..." falls into the same category as "Masochism Tango" as well.//Just as a tangent: Martyn Green, the great Gilbert & Sullivan patter singer said in his autobiography (Here's a How-De-Do; Norton Press, 1952), said that the lyrics in the song "I've Got a Little List" were changed early in this century (I think after G&S died), surely within the first 25 years of the play. The line "There's the banjo serenader and the others of his race..." was formerly "There's the nigger serenader, etc..." So even something as carved in stone as Gilbert & Sullivan can respond to audience demand.

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: GUEST,Murray on Saltspring
Date: 13 Feb 00 - 03:47 AM

You may be interested in another version of this, from "More Rugby Songs" (ed. Harry Morgan), 1968, p. 24:

Violate me in the violet time, in the vilest way you know,
Ruin me, ravage me, brutally savage me,
On me, no mercy show.
Don't give me a man who is selfish and treacherous,
I want a man who is generous and lecherous,
Violate me in the violet time, in the vilest way you know.

-- I can imagine a woman singing this, actually, with tongue firmly in cheek. Maybe that's the best way to treat it.

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Feb 00 - 08:20 AM

Actually Murray, that one would be quite humorous if done by a man and changing the gender in the words.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Feb 00 - 09:46 AM

My take on this song is that it's not about rape - rape is not consensual. It's about kinky sex. I don't know what it is about rugby players and hashers and songs about kinky sex, but I guess rugby players have to sort of enjoy weird stuff to play rugby. Either that or they just get hit on the head too many times.More smutty songs here.

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 00 - 09:48 AM

I reckon it might might be quite funny sung by a man without changing the gender. But only in the right non-gay-mocking context.

Singing with your tongue in your cheek is actually quite difficult to do, and not just physically.

And for once an anonymous GUEST who really had a useful comment, and who should put a name with it, so it's eassier to identify which one it is. (I mean 12th Feb 3.30pm - but that's a clumsy way of having to refer to people.)

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: GUEST,Allan S.
Date: 13 Feb 00 - 10:32 AM

Wow I' did not mean to start any thing like this. No offence taken cat. Woke up this A>M. at 3 and started thinking about all this How do we stop from insulting any one or offending people Should we hand out a list of songs and their themes to people and ask what is offensive do not sing any thing about????? First there are peopla whose life has been affected by an act, Murder, stabings, rape, Other severe personal trauma. This I certainly understand. THe room mate of the lady I have been refering had been raped by her father. THen there are people who What many social workers refer to as Cause People. THese are people who are very involved with a cause And believe with all their hearts in that cause. It acts as a religion to them. So now let's take a a few songs and see where it leads. Silver Dagger We had a murder where a college student was stabed to death I would not sing it if I knew her parents were there Titanic "uncles and aunts little children pissed their pants" SSupose someone was incontinent would it insult them? Cowboy songs- Any vegins there? Songs of east coast Whale fishermen- Save the whales. Lumber jack songs - Tree huggers American hunters- Animal lovers Irish Rebel songs- People fropm north Ireland. The old Orange flute- people from southern Ireland Scottish balads- Murde,r rape,incest, all sorts of crimes. Patriotic songs-peace marchers {or are songs of National liberation ok?} Any war songs -ban all guns

So you see where does it all stop THe only songs that would be safe are nursery rhymes and Im not sure about them THere was a political side to them in old England. So you can't please everyone all the time. No more verses just play the tune and people will make up the words but sing then to their selves so they will not insult the person next to them. And finally to the final conclusion Someone is upset because they are playing an old STELLA and the next person has a vintage Martin I can see the next song circle we all play the AIR GUITAR and sing the sing to our self no sound at all and every one is happy. So you see where does it all end??? My final sttement "Some time in life we are pigions and some times we are statues. Lets just live and enjoy life, each other and our music. Afterward is just the long sleep As one of my students said "Life is a bitch and then you die.

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: Amos
Date: 13 Feb 00 - 10:57 AM

Whoa, Bessie! Whoa, Sally!

We didn't write that song.

With all due respect, folk music is not the shilly shally plastic business that pop recording is.

A song laid down in its own time has its own honor. You can be thoughtful and kind as to whom you sing it, but let us please not seek to rewrite it .

If humans can't face up to their own history, and confront with equanimity the fact that as well as being descended from angels they also come from a species inclined to stupidity, savagery, and hatefulness, they are selling themselves short.

Changing the path of the future is a good thing to do; decency and courtesy to others is a good thing. But rewriting the past because it is unpalatable is not only a cop-out, it is a reactionary form of stupidity in its own right. "He who remains ignorant of the past is doomed to repeat it."

As to "Violate me..." , not to put too rough a point on it, I believe this song was written to be humorous, no?

A

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 00 - 02:08 PM

"You can be thoughtful and kind as to whom you sing it, but let us please not seek to rewrite it" .

Songs change over time, for all kinds of reasons. If it feels more natural to sing "you" than "thou", that's how you sing it. If you want to sing a song that was written in some other dialect, just go ahead and do it in your own.

Look at the thread about BS: British/American cultural differences. If you want to sing a song from another culture, you just adapt it, if that'll help you to sing and other people to listen. After all, that's what happened with the songs that went from Ireland and England to America before now.

I don't think its any different when the change in language we use is related to courtesy rather than mere fashion.

This isn't the same as sanitising history. If you were putting on a play set in the 19th century, it would be wrong to take out words like "darky" or "nigger" and replacing them by the kind of words we'd use now. If you were doing a concert featuring the music of Stephen Foster, putting it in its historical context, the same would apply. But if I were singing the same song in a session or a club, I'd instinctively use the language I normally use.

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: Midchuck
Date: 13 Feb 00 - 02:28 PM

Amos - Thank you for saying what I wanted to say but didn't dare try for fear of saying it so emphaticly that I'd get all these hypersensitive new age PC folkie types so p*ss*d off at me that I'd be drummed out of the Mudcat.

If we're going to be folk musicians, we have to realize that the majority of traditional songs are offensive to some racial, ethnic, or sexual group. We can try to bowdlerize them, and in another generation or two we'll look as foolish as the people who tried to clean out the "dirty" words in Shakespeare's plays do now. Or we can not sing them at all, and we won't be folksingers any more. We'll be sensitive singer-songwriters, and the world needs more of them like Custer needed more Indians, I mean Native Americans.

So what do you do? Be careful where you sing what, I guess. I also like to get terribly offended when someone tells a lawyer joke. Then tell them I'm kidding after they get embarrassed and try to explain....

Peter.

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Feb 00 - 03:00 PM

For a very good discussion on this subject, please see this previous thread on Song Appropriateness.

For the record, I think you guys are overreacting to the clearly and simply stated opinions of two women. Also, I am a vegetarian and I sing cowboy songs, they are part of my heritage. The only other things I'd like to say is I've spent the better part of over a year learning from some of the best such as Art Thieme and Sandy Paton, that the folk process is ongoing, in that folks rewrite lyrics often to suit their need. For a fine and recent example, I would refer you to the SONG CHALLENGE!Part 6 thread and LEJ's posting of new words to an old cowboy favourite.

I think we have a right to our opinion without everyone going overboard. I also don't think most audiences would be very impressed nor supportive of the original words to this beautiful tune, depending on how and in what context it was presented. Women have had to work hard and long to overcome such stereotypes and except in an hisotircal context I don't see any redeeming value in performing it, in public. MY OPINION ONLY.

Midchuck, with all due respect, I spent half of my childhood being teased and denigrated for being "hyper-sensitive" because I had such a high degree of empathy and was so able to relate to others' feelings. This ability is something I now understand much better and it has served me in good stead for may years. I am not "new age" nor "PC". I study a very ancient learning of metaphysics and consider myself to be "ethically conscious". Sorry if you are uncomforatble with that.

My very ability to understand where you all are coming from in this debate would keep me from voting for "drumming" you out of the Mudcat; besides, in case you haven't noticed, the Mudcat has ALL types and there ain't no drumming any of us out; just doesn't happen.

katjuststatingheropinion

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: Amos
Date: 13 Feb 00 - 04:12 PM

Ok, katjuststating. I am retrenched now, my ears stinging from the boxing, so let me try again.

There is a fine line between evolving a song in the interest of better communication (slipping a you in where a thou once stood, or removing "nigger" for bano because oif the change in context since those days.

I can be empathetic, and words change meaning, sop there is fine judgement line to be cleaved to.

But, for example, there are a slew of songs portraying the age-old problem of unwanted preganancy resulting from mutual unstopped passions. A large number of them include a rerally psycho solution wherein the stronger of the couple, usually the male, takes the weaker of the couple out of sight and ends their life.

A few examples are "Polly, Pretty Polly", "The Banks of the Ohio", and the one I think of as "Burglar's Wine", properly called something else. These portray a very rough vignette, one which would be very uncomfortable to many people today, apparently glamorizing violence (by commemorating it in song) not to mention misogyny.

I won't sing these songs to someone who is over-tenderized to the point of thinking that doing so is offensive. But I would remind such a person of the time frtame in which the songs reside. And I would be damned if I would rewrite them to make it seem they played jacks in the woods instead of murder.

Here's a couplet from a Civil War song:

When our good old flag, the Stars and Stripes, from Sumters walls was hurled
And up above on the forwardest wall the Rebel flag unfurled
It aroused each loyal Northern man and caused his blood to boil
To see that flag -- Secession's Rag -- float over Virginia soil

There are similar couplets from the same era denouncing the abrogation of STate's Rights by the Federalists, which was the core issue of the Civil War.

Either one of the two could cause offense. For example, there are large numbers of people recently stirred up because they believe (incorrectly) that slavery was the core issue of the Civil War. Obviously they would be offended by a song that called for Hurrah's for the Bonnie Blue Flag, even though that song states cxlearly it is about Southern rights, not about owning humans. It is understandable that the two issues get mixed up. But it does not, to my mind, justify stripping them of their original intent.

I often sing the Unreconstructed Rebel, with its funny and somehow stirring last line:

I won't be rconstructed, an' I do not give a damn.

I have always felt that knowing these songs was somehow a proof against Big Brother's effort to rewrite the past, burying the passions and often the wisdom of history. I don't believe that knowing and singing them reduces ethical consciousness, any more than it promotes murdering pregnat girlfriends. In fact quite the contrary. It portrays the past agonies well enough to make them stand out as lessons learned). That's one of their values.

All this is the rationale behind my argument that a song laid down in its own time has its own honor. I know and enjoy the evolving process that produces new songs and new versions but it is one thing as an organic process, and another as a Grundy-esque effort to cover up the less admirable parts of our collective history. I suppose the intent makes all the difference, and I cannot come up just now with any clear definition that would otherwise differnetiate between the two infallibly.

At the same time I do not believe in forcing people to think about anything they really can't handle, except in emergencies. Ah, me, what a quandary.

A

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: Amos
Date: 13 Feb 00 - 04:13 PM

Damn I hate italiacs! :>)

A

I fixed 'em.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: jofield
Date: 13 Feb 00 - 04:26 PM

OK, since the women who have responded are too considerate to state the obvious, I'll wade in here. First of all, I ain't exactly PC: not that long ago, I suggested to my old bluegrass band that we do a set at a notoriously PC institution of higher learning entirely of tunes like "I'm the Boss of This Here House" and "Tell Her Lies and Feed Her Candy" -- just to see if we could get a rise out of the audience. (Saner heads prevailed.)

In spite of all the impassioned pleas for freedom of speech (all by men) and the ironic references to nursery rhymes and air-guitars, let's cut to the obvious: anyone who follows an intitial request for "Fascinating Bitch" with "Violate Me" has something other than nostalgia or scholarship on his mind. Which he is entirely free to have -- I just don't need him taking up space and generating arguments on a folk-music forum. There are plenty of other forums for that -- they begin with "alt.sex".

To all the yelps of "..but Shakespeare!, but Oscar Brand!", I simply say, "yeah, right". Frankly, it all reminds me of the repressed '50s mentality which led guys to tell dirty jokes to see if they could discern who the 'fast' girls were. Almost quaint, if it weren't so dumb.

Of course my whining won't stop anything -- only one thing will. The next time a request for lyrics to, say, "Roll Me Over In the Clover" appear -- in spite of accompanying tales of lost loves, real or imagined -- I would love to see the number next to it stay parked at 1.

James

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Feb 00 - 05:38 PM

Amos, darlin', I won't say anymore except, please go read through the thread I mentioned. Please, give me credit, for what I put in bold print. I NEVER SAID CHANGE THE WORDS AND NEVER, EVER PERFORM THE ORIGINAL!! All I said, originally, was it was a nice tune and that I FELT it would be even nicer with different words!

James, thank you, still it seems, when we women are assertive, we are perceived as bitchy, overly-sensitive, etc.

kat

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: Midchuck
Date: 13 Feb 00 - 05:50 PM

kat said:

"James, thank you, still it seems, when we women are assertive, we are perceived as bitchy, overly-sensitive, etc."

Probably true. And when we men are assertive we are perceived as chauvinistic, dominating, etc. Maybe some kind of negotiated settlement is in order....

Peter.

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 00 - 07:53 PM

I've never seen any suggestion that the Banks of the Ohio or Pretty Polly is about what a great idea it is to murder women when you've got them pregnant - they're songs that set out to warn women about violent men, and that's something which is as relevant today as it ever has been.

Yeah, and it's possible to sing them in a way that brings out the aspect which is in them of the idea of terror as entertainment, sung urban (or rural) legends, precurser of the horror-film. But I think that cheapens songs that are best sung straight and aware of the reality underlying them.

Assertiveness, yes. I know there's a sharp distinction in theory between being assertive and being aggressive, and how assertiveness is to be opposed to be the functional alternative both to being aggressive and to being submissive. But somehow I never seem to meet people who've done assertivess training, and come out less aggressive.

In practice it seems to be a matter of "I'm assertive - you're aggressive", like "I'm determined, you're stubborn."

NB I very much value what I would call real assertivess, both in myself and in other people - except that I don't like to use the term any more, because I think it's been used too often to describe manipulative bullying.

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: Amos
Date: 13 Feb 00 - 08:02 PM

Well let me start, my dear friend kAT, by saying that I don't think I was flying off at something you said, and if it seemed that way I apologize; I hold you in high esteem and am certain you are the last person I would direct that stream of pedantic noise at.

Come to think of it I do not remember what set me off. :>)

But it wasn't you, so pax tecum sweet gal.

James I agree with what I think you are saying, in that anyone who uses songs of a chauvinistic or sadistic nature to communicat efor him is revealing his own nature. And really both the songs you mention are trivial sort of doggerel in my mind, not worth wasting gas on.

Pardon me for waxing unduly rhetorical. That said, I still believe in the merits of a song's nature deriving from its own time in history. I don't think old ballads should be censored by the standards of political correctitutde, and I don't beleive ethat you or kAT do either.

So I don't know who I was yellin at except top hear myself yell. :>

A

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Feb 00 - 11:25 PM

Glad we got that straightened out!**BG** Pax, Brother Amos, Pax!

kat

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: Amos
Date: 14 Feb 00 - 09:12 AM

McGrath, I love your description of assertive/aggressive/stubborn. There was a slew of these at one point, framed in first, second and third person...somethinglike:

I'm sensible
You're conservative
He's selfish.

I'm selfpossessed
You're assertive
He's aggressive...

You get the idea.

Anyway I take what you say to heart. Manipulation, no matter how disguised, is disrespectful and unpleasant.

A

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Feb 00 - 01:03 PM

Came back to see where this one eventually went and like most long threads it had much good in it, especially liked the way people clean up their 'Catshit as they go, when they are concerned if they have hurt anoither member. I like you all so much.

I don't know who said this,m but:

He who blushes is not yet a brute.

I think the applicable paralle is: He who stops to think is not the enemy.

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 00 - 07:24 PM

"Cleaning up,the Catshit" - now that I think is a useful addition to the idiom of the Mudcat. (At least I haven't seen it used here in that sense before.) Tnaks Praise!

The trouble is a lot of the Catshit comes from feral moggies who sneaked in through the catflap and never got house trained. But then that's how all of us came in.

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 00 - 07:26 PM

That "Tnaks" was supposed to be "Thanks". There is always one weird spelling that you see just as you push the Submit button.

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: Amos
Date: 14 Feb 00 - 07:27 PM

Feral moggies! There's the problem. Dang, those lil feral moggies.

A

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Feb 00 - 10:15 PM

HEY! Merrrroooowww!! Who're you calling a feral moggie???? I'll give you feral!!!! Oh, Kevin...Amosss......look at the nice kitty!**BG**

luvyamog,er...I mean kat

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: Crowhugger
Date: 14 Feb 00 - 10:23 PM

Ditto Ana's first posting.

There's funny, there's delightful lewd and there's hang-it-all bawdy. And there's scary. Should women have to worry. Of course not. Is a performer safe waiting for the bus at 2 a.m. after singing a song with those words? Usually.

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: Crowhugger
Date: 14 Feb 00 - 10:26 PM

Ditto Ana's first posting.

There's funny, there's delightful lewd and there's hang-it-all bawdy. And there's scary. Should women have to worry. Of course not. Is a performer safe waiting for the bus at 2 a.m. after singing a song with those words? Usually.

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: Pete Peterson
Date: 14 Feb 00 - 10:52 PM

Thread creep indeed: Amos-- you said that Bonnie Blue Flag is about states' rights not slavery. I call your attention to the first couple lines of the first verse:
We are a band of brothers and native to the soil

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: Amos
Date: 14 Feb 00 - 10:56 PM

Yes, Pete. "Fighting for the liberties we earned with honest toil..."..

Their liberties, I submit, about which they took up arms, were the same liberties delineated in the Declaration of Independence -- to withdraw from a government they found oppressive and set up their own.
.
I am not saying that would have been for the best, but I am certain in my own limited mind that that's what they were on about..
.
Do you have some other interpretation?

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: Pete Peterson
Date: 14 Feb 00 - 10:58 PM

don't hit Submit so quickly Pete!

We are a band of brothers and native to the soil
Fighting for THE PROPERTY WE GAINED BY HONEST TOIL

There isn't much doubt in my mind what is meant there-- and amazed that they were brazen enough to admit it. Anybody who says the war was about states' rights has to tell me what rights they had in mind PETE

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Feb 00 - 11:08 PM

The rights they had in mind were those of determining just where their state would go, as per the original Constitution. I am not pro-South (slavery), but the issues were much wider than that. As it happened, the North won in more ways than one;,Don't Hesitate, Legislate! States rights have seriously declined; witness the Federal Highway bills-----if states do not comply with ALL the provisions, all Federal Highway Maintenence and up grades will be withdrawn.

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: Amos
Date: 15 Feb 00 - 12:35 AM

Well, y'know, I always heard the song sung "liberties..." in the Warner version... I am almost positive of that, but I see the DT version says properties. It certainly makes all the difference.

If all they were fighting for was property, I think it would have been a shorter war indeed.

The status of the rights of an individual and the rights of a State were more elevated and less tarnished in 1864 than ever thereafter. The war was prompted by Secession, and was often called the War of Secession, or the War of States' Rights. Slavery was becoming an issue in many quarters, but it never wouldhave started a war of that magnitude, I feel. Just IMHO.

A

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: Jacob B
Date: 15 Feb 00 - 02:09 PM

I was told in a college history course that virtually every national organization had split into a northern organization and a southern organization by the time of the Civil War. The Southern Baptists are still a separate church, I believe. The Women's Christian Temperance Union will do as an example: one organization believed temperance meant refraining from hard liquor, the other believed it meant refraining from any alcohol, AND one of the organizations had a policy condemning slavery, while the other supported it.

It sounds to me like slavery had become like the proverbial elephant in the living room that no one wants to talk about. Some liked it, some hated it, and this provoked people into being unable to agree on other topics.

Sure the southern states said they had a right to secede, and they were right, but they didn't secede just to prove they could do it. They had a reason for wanting to secede. Wasn't that reason that they were afraid slave-owning would be made illegal, and their economic system was dependent on owning slaves?

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: Amos
Date: 15 Feb 00 - 02:43 PM

Jacob:

You may well be right, in broad. What the secession issue was about was whether or not a sentiment from the North -- Abolition -- could be dictated to States via the central government or not. As far as I know, which is nowhere as far as it should be.

A

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: Hollowfox
Date: 19 Feb 00 - 11:24 AM

Hello, McGrath of Harlow - Thanks for the nice comments about my posting of 2/13. I came to see how this thread was going, and found out that when I use any terminal other than the one I signed up on to write to Mudcat, it registers me as "Guest" (I only have 'net access at work at this time, so I can only check in/sound off on lunch and breaks). Now I know, and I'll sign my name from now on.

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: GUEST,Gypsy
Date: 19 Feb 00 - 12:19 PM

Hi there! What a tempest! I personally loathe hurtful jokes, and songs. So, i do something really revolutionary...I don't tell them, or sing them. And you know what? I have plenty to tell, and to sing. It also rubs off on the people that we jam with. So, if you don't like the song, don't sing it. But don't lecture another person about it! Freedom of choice, right?

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Feb 00 - 12:21 PM

Guess every generation has at least one issue that becomes a litmus test.

What is your humble opinion:

Was the fact that there has only been one Civil War due to the fact that those issues were the most passionately held positions in our nation's history, or did we learn so much from its "'catsh*t" that it would take a more pssionate confuence of distress patterns to cause another civil war?

Have we just learned to have other sorts of wars, or what?

Open-ended question for open-minded thought....

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 00 - 12:50 PM

"Only one Civil War?" Parochial bunch you Americans are sometimes. But even within the American context it's a questionable thing to say. Even if wars against the native population don't count, the War of Independence surely should.

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Feb 00 - 01:10 PM

McG of H,

Well yes, apparently we have already had an occasion to give and take offense.

None intended, I was coming from a very narrow focus, not a narrow mind. The focus I was holding was about divided brothers, not about inhuman insanity wreaked upon whole populations, and not about the birth of a nation from the empire that mothered it.

We can go there if you wish, but I would hope that you were not starting from the feeling that I had meant to ignore or minimize any suffering that has ever occurred, I am not about that.

Subject: RE: Violate me in the Violet time
From:
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 04:48 PM

"Violate Me in the Violet Time" was, I believe, written and performed as a music hall song, late 19th century. It's a comic song, a tease--and part of its era, i.e., modern PC contexts are inappropriate.

I desperately need ALL the verses. I have the first verse and 2 lines of the second ("I'd never go with a man for his money,/Just find me one who will ***like a bunny, to, etc."

If anyone knows where I can locate similar songs, I would greatly appreciate hearing from you.

With many thanks.