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HELP! Am searching for The Sea Captain (answered)

GUEST,wildkingdom@hotmail.com 12 Feb 00 - 07:59 PM
wysiwyg 12 Feb 00 - 10:01 PM
SeanM 12 Feb 00 - 10:26 PM
John Moulden 13 Feb 00 - 04:21 AM
Art Thieme 14 Feb 00 - 11:33 PM
Crowhugger 15 Feb 00 - 08:56 PM
Joe Offer 16 Feb 00 - 12:21 AM
GUEST,Sea Captain date 13 Dec 10 - 01:00 PM
GUEST 13 Dec 10 - 01:01 PM
dick greenhaus 13 Dec 10 - 06:42 PM
Steve Gardham 13 Dec 10 - 07:09 PM
nager 13 Dec 10 - 10:02 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Dec 10 - 12:45 PM
GUEST,Steve G 14 Dec 10 - 01:13 PM
Little Robyn 14 Dec 10 - 01:29 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Dec 10 - 02:23 PM
Steve Gardham 14 Dec 10 - 05:10 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Dec 10 - 03:52 AM
GUEST,SteveG 15 Dec 10 - 12:37 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Dec 10 - 07:04 PM
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Subject: HELP! Am searching for 'The Sea Captain'
From: GUEST,wildkingdom@hotmail.com
Date: 12 Feb 00 - 07:59 PM

I have a folk class at WVU. I have to research a ballad called "The Sea Captain". If anyone has any info or resources I could use it would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks- Joelle


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Subject: RE: HELP! Am searching for 'The Sea Captain'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Feb 00 - 10:01 PM

The following are from threads in the last year on a Forum search for the phrase [Sea Captain].

If any of them sound like yours, and you need help contacting the people who posted them, let us know by replying in this thread.

From: Martin Ryan. Date: 03-Jun-98 - 08:06 PM Tony Rose version of "William Gower" (usually called "The Waterford Sea Captain" in Ireland)

From: schneid@worldsite.net Date: 03-Dec-96 - 11:49 PM I am looking for the lyrics and any information about a sea-chantey of possible Maritime/Childe or New England origin entitled "The Cruel Sea Captain" Thanks for any help.

From: mryan@server1.rtc-athlone.ie Date: 04-Dec-96 - 11:32 AM Is this not the song in the database under the name "Sir William Gower"? Lots of other versions around.

From: NIGEL SELLARS Date: 04-Dec-96 - 12:05 PM I suspect this is the English song about the cruel captain who killed a young boy and is condemned for it. If so, then it is also the basis for Britten's opera "Peter Grimes." I seem to recall the song is in The Penguin Book of English Folksongs edited by Ralph Vaughan Williams and A.L. Lloyd

From: dick greenhaus Date: 06-Dec-96 - 11:00 PM Hi- Do you remember any words or phrases from the song? It sounds like either Andrew Ross (or Rose) OR The Golden Vanity (Child #286)

From: sophocleese Date: 25-Jan-00 - 02:30 PM I like Jake Thackery's "Jolly Sea Captain" at least I think that's the title.

From: harpgirl Date: 10-May-99 - 09:51 AM Dear Chris, am looking for your song but Murray and Bruce might be more successful...The Sea Captain aka Maid on The Shore is a song about love and robbery on the shore...harpgirl

From: Chris Clarke Date: 11-May-99 - 08:47 AM Lyn and Harpgirl: Thanks for responding. This song has haunted me for years. My recollection is that the origin of the song was unknown, but from the unarchaic language it would either be reworked or composed within the last couple of centuries. The book mentioned that there was a Porlock Sound which had historical records of being raided by Danes. So the song may refer to early events, or it may be a later version of an earlier song. I don't know of any other songs that refer to events that early (800-900s). The tune has unusual intervals, and doesn't sound to me as though it comes from the normal run of ballad melodies. It seems either from another tradition, or composed to sound different. I will try to think of a way of writing it down for you in text.

From: Chris Clarke Date: 12-May-99 - 08:06 AM

I have found the first page of Three Danish Galleys with the first verse and chorus, and the written music, much as I recalled it. It is on a xerox of page 187 of the book, which is A5 format, but no clue to the book title. I still want the rest of the song!

Three galleys come sailing to Porlock Side And stole me away a new wed bride Who left my true love lying dead on the shore Sailing, out and away I never shall see my dear home no more


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Subject: RE: HELP! Am searching for 'The Sea Captain'
From: SeanM
Date: 12 Feb 00 - 10:26 PM

Yeow! Way to go Praise!

My respect for you grows by post!

The only thing you're missing is the HTML links, but you'll pick those up off of the practice threads.

In the meantime, Joelle, if one of the above resources doesn't fit your needs, could you post a smidgeon of lyrics? As should be obvious from above, there are a TON of songs involving captains.

Snickering back to the background... M


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Subject: RE: HELP! Am searching for 'The Sea Captain'
From: John Moulden
Date: 13 Feb 00 - 04:21 AM

All these songs could be called the Sea Captain - the one which Britten used for Peter Grimes is commonly called "The Captain's Apprentice"

The song mentioning Porlock is (at my guess) a literary pastiche of the middle to late 19th century.


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Subject: RE: HELP! Am searching for 'The Sea Captain'
From: Art Thieme
Date: 14 Feb 00 - 11:33 PM

A while ago I posted a song within some thread called "The Captain On The Coast Of Maine" as far as I know. Maybe it was a simple "lyric add". It was on an album by Pittsburgh singer Vivian Richman on Folkways. The song was NOT listed in the notes or on the LP label---but just ended the album quite mysteriously. Was about a woman who married her Captain and was left at home among the souveniers of his travels while he sailed to his mysterious doom somewhere unknown. Every year, on their aniversary, she opened the gates of their fortress-like home (and her arms) to a stranger.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: HELP! Am searching for 'The Sea Captain'
From: Crowhugger
Date: 15 Feb 00 - 08:56 PM

SeanM, Praise can do the clicky things. But when there's a Mudcat Island Folk Festival happening, well, priorities, I expect.

Speaking of the gentle isle, someone just sang a lovely song with various pickers and strummers, and of all things, a cello...

Just copy and paste into your browser's whatchamacallit:

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=18166&desc=yes#179035

(clickies will have to wait until I sort out my take on the polar bear song)


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Subject: RE: HELP! Am searching for 'The Sea Captain'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 12:21 AM

With all due respect to Comrade Editor Greenhaus, I have to say that our esteemed Digital Tradition Folk Song Database does not pay particular attention to the titles of songs, so we are not a particularly good place to find songs by title. If a song is a folk song, it must have at least half a dozen titles and every title must have half a dozen songs; so the estimable Mr. Greenhaus is, of course, correct. End of groveling and sycophancy.
But when I want to find a song by title, I go to Fresno (doesn't everyone?), to the Traditional Ballad Index (click), a great resource for researching the history behind folk songs. A search for "sea captain" in the Ballad Index, brings up 16 song titles. The first one listed is usually the best match - it's called "The Sea Captain"; or, more commonly, "The Fair Maid by the Sea Shore," after the more interesting character in the song.
Clicking on the Ballad Index reference for that song (clack) takes you to a wealth of reference information, including the fact that there are TWO versions of the song right here in the Digital Tradition (DT), THE MAID ON THE SHORE (clock), and THE MAID ON THE SHORE 2 (clunk). The Ballad Index also says that this is Child Ballad #43, and a search of the Digital Tradition for #43 (clank) brings up five interrelated ballads to look at. It's also identified as Laws K27, and a search of the Digital Tradition for K27 (clark) brings up just the two versions of "Maid on the Shore."
Go back to that Ballad Index entry, and you will see that the song is in several of the best folk song books. You will find instructions on how to understand the Ballad Index entries here (cluck), and a list of the reference books in the Bibliography (clook), which is also a list of all the folk song books that I would like to own....

Now, all this goes on the assumption that I'm guessing the right song, which is one heck of a good, sexy song, by the way. If not, go back and search the Ballad Index again, and then come back here and search the Digital Tradition. Hope that helps.
-Joe Offer (also sent e-mail)-


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Subject: RE: HELP! Am searching for The Sea Captain (answered)
From: GUEST,Sea Captain date
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 01:00 PM

go to http://www.SeaCAPTAINdate.com to find any captain


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Subject: RE: HELP! Am searching for The Sea Captain (answered)
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 01:01 PM

http://www.SeaCaptainDate.com\\


GO there


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Subject: RE: HELP! Am searching for The Sea Captain (answered)
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 06:42 PM

Interesting point. I've always been told that Child considered "The Sea Captain" or "Maid on the Shore" to be a variant of "Broomfield Wager" (Child #43). Bronson believe so, too. But I can't seem to find it in Child.


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Subject: RE: HELP! Am searching for The Sea Captain (answered)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 07:09 PM

Dick, this is a fantasy of Bronson, nothing to do with Child. It only has superficial ideas in common with Broomfield Hill, although it is definitely based on European stories and ballads, most probably closely based on a Scandinavian ballad. See my recent Dungheap article on Musical Traditions website, in particular the Phillips Barry article included.


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Subject: RE: HELP! Am searching for The Sea Captain (answered)
From: nager
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 10:02 PM

You could try The Jolly Captain by Jake Thackray.


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Subject: RE: HELP! Am searching for The Sea Captain (answered)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 12:45 PM

"Dick, this is a fantasy of Bronson"
Steve - I do wish you wouldn't be so dismissive of scholars on the one hand, and use them to back up your sometimes off-the-wall claims on the other (Child - Ebsworth???)
The truth is that very few of them had any great knowledge of the people who gave us (and almost certainly made) our songs - they wouldn't recognise a traditional singer if one bit their collective bums.
The Broomfield Hill and Maid on the Shore may well come from different stables (something we can't know or prove), but both share the motif of the would-be seductee/murder victim enchanting her would be seducer/murderer to sleep in order to escape her fate. This is also a very common motif in folktales, stretching back to biblical times, so it is quite possible that the songs are linked in some way.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: HELP! Am searching for The Sea Captain (answered)
From: GUEST,Steve G
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 01:13 PM

Jim,
Many songs, and indeed tales, share motifs, but this does not mean they are connected in any other way. They may have picked up their motifs from some distant common source, or it is even possible the connection is pure coincidence. If you read my article and the inset article by Phillips Barry you will see these connections put into a much larger overall context covering a multiplicity of international ballads and tales.

'dismissive of scholars': That's exactly what you are being by dismissing the works of very knowledgeable scholars like Child and Ebsworth.

'almost certainly made'. I thought we'd already agreed to differ on that one. You can't prove your stance. I can't prove mine. Irresistable force/immovable object and all that!

Cheers,
Steve


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Subject: RE: HELP! Am searching for The Sea Captain (answered)
From: Little Robyn
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 01:29 PM

The original post was almost 11 years ago.
   12 Feb 00 - 07:59 PM
   I have a folk class at WVU. I have to research a ballad called "The Sea Captain". If anyone has any info or resources I could use it would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks- Joelle

I'm sure Joelle has lost interest by now.
Yes, some interesting posts have been added but the guest who revived it actually linked us to a dating service - a hook-up site!
Robyn


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Subject: RE: HELP! Am searching for The Sea Captain (answered)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 02:23 PM

Of course many songs share motifs, but when two songs share the same motif as an essential part of the plot, then it suggests (to me at least) that the two might be related.
"That's exactly what you are being by dismissing the works of very knowledgeable scholars like Child and Ebsworth."
Aren't you being this by with your "fantasy of Bronson" or wasn't Bronson a 'knowledgeable enough scholar'? The same goes with your writing off Leslie Shepherd as "not being very good with folk songs..." or some such dismissal. Some knowledgeable scholars have made transparently outrageous statements, Phillips Barry being one of them.
It seems you are being selective in your choice and dismissal of 'experts', when it it is not really important who says what, rather, what they say and the evidence they produce to back it up.
My problem has always been with your stating the unknown and unknowable as fact.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: HELP! Am searching for The Sea Captain (answered)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 05:10 PM

If we linked together the ballads say in the Child canon that have the same motifs we could probably link the whole lot together as one ballad and have done with it. As with Child, Bronson is one of my gods, but that doesn't make them infallible. They both got a few things wrong, but thankfully IMHO they got the vast majority of it right. I don't remember 'dismissing' any of the 'experts' whatever that is.

Jim, I am aware of this tendency, mainly thanks to you, and I am now more careful with what I state as fact and offer as considered opinion, so I am forever in your debt! Do please continue to be my biggest critic.


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Subject: RE: HELP! Am searching for The Sea Captain (answered)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 03:52 AM

Steve,
I'm not your biggest critic - I admire your work and welcome the chance to discuss it, but I find it difficult to do so when it is set in such definitive terms.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: HELP! Am searching for The Sea Captain (answered)
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 12:37 PM

Enough!
We are hijacking someone else's thread.
If you want to continue start a new thread please.


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Subject: RE: HELP! Am searching for The Sea Captain (answered)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 07:04 PM

"Enough!"
I agree entirely - back to the subject in hand.
"If we linked together the ballads say in the Child canon that have the same motifs....."
True, but here we are not talking about stray secondary motifs - we are dealing with two songs where a woman avoids seduction using enchantment - not an incidental part of the plot, but its main feature in both cases.
I overcame my abhorrance of MT magazine and read your artical - sorry, not convinced. Too heavily reliant on the printed versions which, as I've said before, I believe to be rewritings of songs from the tradition. Phillips Barry's expressed contempt of 'the folk' along with his overactive imagination as displayed by his flights of fantasy over magic Islands and water nymphs (see his note to 'Lake of Col Finn') make him an unreliable source of information as far as I'm concerned.
So we are left with just the two narratives to go on, which I believe are similar enough to have come from the same source - nothing definitive, just "a gut reaction".
Jim Carroll


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