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Proposal from Simon-Pierre
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Subject: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: Amos Date: 21 Feb 00 - 01:40 AM I have received a letter of interest from Simon Pierre, who wrote me in French and aske dif I owuld forward an English translation for an idea he has which I think is worth attention. He says: I take the liberty o fwriting in French since I believe you know it well. For my part, it is frustrating not to be able to express myself well in English, and by the same token not be able to fully participate in Mudcate discussions. BUthere -- it's about something I have been thinking in regard to discussions found under the "Memorable Mudcat Threads" archive, where I have been able to read these -- to say the least -- extraordinary debates about folk music. It is the first time to my knowledge that anyone from simple amateurs to professionals can be found freely discussing a subject reserved for academicians (the definition of folk music) or industry professionals (what is or isn't "good").
The debates have a powerful richness to them and their interest really surpasses the constraints of a forum of simple discussion. I laughed my self silly over "FS For Dummies" and a cried at "Why We Sing", reflecting deeply all along. The three years of Mudcat demonstrate that whatever its members think, FOlk music is very much alive and that seeing its present it has an assured future.
So, here's what--you made an explicit allusion in "Mudcat's Horoscope": Why not make from it a book which would be an excellent guide to what traditional music is like today? The profits could be directed to the Mudcat site, if it were self-published, but it seems to me this could equally well interest an editor who could provide it a wider distribution. I replied to him in my rusty apache French to the effect that:
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: Amos Date: 21 Feb 00 - 02:03 AM Refraicher |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: paddymac Date: 21 Feb 00 - 02:58 AM Amos - Are you proposing, on Simon-Pierre's behalf, publishing a book of memorable threads, or are you interested in gathering new commentary on selected topics? My own sense is that either would be of merit. The real task would be in the editing. Mechanical things like typos, spelling, grammar, etc., wouldn't be much of a problem, but things like flamers, thread creep, undue coarseness, crudity, substance of lack thereof, etc, would be a bit touchier and would likely bruise a few egos. (But, then, nobody here has one (or more) of them, so it might not be a problem.) Some 'catters will no doubt see "editing" as synonymous with "censorship", and I certainly recognize the subtlety of the problem, but having sufferred the pangs of editors a time or two, I also recognize how such efforts contribute to a better product. I'd be happy to help in any way. |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: katlaughing Date: 21 Feb 00 - 08:53 AM For some previous discussions on this, please see the following threads: Are we serious about a Best of Mudcat book? Mudcat Book: Suggested Threads and, Another possible Mudcat book... I love the idea and I still think there are enough of us that we could divide up the work and do a good job. I already have most of the threads which I think are memorable saved, in the entirety, in my WP program. Thank you Simon-Pierre and Amos! katlaughing |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: wysiwyg Date: 21 Feb 00 - 10:31 AM One of my hats is copy-editing, and I would help. Perhaps since I was not part of the past, I can lend some measure of detachment in some small way. |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: Night Owl Date: 21 Feb 00 - 11:13 AM still thinking "Life by a "Thread" is a great title for a Mudcat book! ;o) |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: Amos Date: 21 Feb 00 - 11:16 AM I told my wife about the idea and she immediately saw the thing in all its ramifications ... culturally we are on a strange cusp, bring the warmth of personal friendship, and the ancient resonance of our millions of songs, through this strange new world medium of instant linkage across continents. This is a unique site, a unique experience and something that provides a balance to the worst aspects of the electronic revolution. Then you add the incredible indiviuality of the Catters with their flames, coarseness, sensitivity, etc etc and their amazing cretaivity and you have abook that could be a classic of its era. Not a vanitypress proposition, but a real capture of something amazing and unique. I am chewing on this, kat and all, as a serious and real project. THinkety thinkety think... |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: Áine Date: 21 Feb 00 - 11:20 AM I haven't finished reading through the other threads noted above by kat; however, I did want to say that I do think it is a great idea, and to thank Amos for his faith in me. I think that an undertaking such as this one demands that several 'editors' be involved, if not merely for the sake of fairness and objectivity, but also for the sheer size of the task. There appear to be several Mudcatters interested in this idea, and a coordinator would seem to be the first obvious position to be filled. Having recently stepped down from such a position in a non-profit organization, I don't think I'll be volunteering for it. However, I will offer help in editing, formatting, etc. to the cause. In summary, count me in -- and let's don't let this jewel of inspiration fall down the tubes to disappear into the ether again, OK? -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: wysiwyg Date: 21 Feb 00 - 11:22 AM From the marketing viewpoint (rank opportunists of the world, unite! Then compete!): Maybe a better starting point would be articles cobbled from the Mudcat treasure house and placed in places like Sing Out magazine, where we could keep the message of the need to support 'Cat out there consistently. These articles would be compiled to become the book. Each volume would be offered on the shoulders of the preceding one. Unless you don't WANT to become Folk for Dummies, just becasue the title is so unpleasant. |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: paddymac Date: 21 Feb 00 - 11:28 AM Thinking out loud about minutia to fret over. We, of course, need Max's approval to use the name "Mudcat". Then, more problematic, we would probably need a release from each contributer. Not a problem for official members of the family, but could be in re any anonymice. The underlying question is who, if anybody, "owns" materials posted by catters. |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: simon-pierre Date: 21 Feb 00 - 12:01 PM Very good question paddymac. I think, and it's an opinion and not a fact, that Mudcat «owns» materials posted here; every message still available here, and I wonder if it would be very different if printed. Of course, it would be for sale, but ideally, to help Mudcat raising fund. I don't know, but in a book, you can reprint a letter you received, even to insult the author, and that's legal. And I think that Catters will assume that their posts are in the public domain... Amos tells it better than me: yes it would be a classic. I didn't eslewhere a place that *anybody* can talk deeply about folk music. Takes it as a field recording. SP |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Feb 00 - 02:09 PM Well, I like books, but printing them and all would be a great hassle.
Would it be practical to do the whole thing on a CD Rom, with hyperlinks and all that sort of stuff added in between various threads and postings. Could include in pictures from bbc's rogues gallery, and songs -call the whole thing "The Mudcat Experience".
I reckon it might even be easier than going down the print route. And it might get to places where a printed book wouldn't. |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: Amos Date: 22 Feb 00 - 12:31 AM This book has a place not just in disseminating the Mudcat to Mudcatters; it has a key place in reflecting the amazing overlays that occur here-- the threads of high tech zip woven in with ancient and recent forms of music, the burning creativity and the uproarious humor. A microcosm of the very best that a community can be -- even the interlopers and jerks are met with good cheer and instead of being fought, are transmuted or ...what's the damn word...sort of sublimated into a cleaner higher level. The Cat reflects many of the trials of normal living in small, in a way that has its own spice, like a Cajun meatloaf. I for one would like to try writing or centering such a book. The raw material is already written. I think it would be a huge challenge. If it were successful, a portion of that would come back to strengthen the Mudcat location with hardware and service support, making Max' life a little lighter. Max, what are your thoughts on this all?
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: Crowhugger Date: 22 Feb 00 - 04:07 AM Re: ownership of content... I was reading up lately about copyright - note here that I am not a lawyer, this is offered as food for thought, not advice. The way I understand it, you write it, you own it until you sell/give it. You own what you write, as do I and all the other contributors. We just don't own the storage media, Mudcat does. I wonder if someone knows if a written permission would be needed from each contributor as a legal CYA for Mudcat? One cranky gold-digger can overspend anyone's legal budget in a trice. Bit of drift: At the 'Cat, each of us can copy our "creations" to our own hard disks for any future use we please. Think, though, of this little absurdity: When I snap a photo, I own the image and the unprocessed film. I take it in for processing...now the photo lab has the only copy of my intellectual(?) property. Are they breaking copyright law by holding my image if I don't want to pay for the prints? Ain't technology grand. |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: Max Date: 22 Feb 00 - 12:14 PM I very much encourage the idea, and although I may not be able to do a whole lot, I will do what I can to assist. Sounds like a very challenging endeavor. I am always pleased when ideas become reality. Keep me posted and let me know if you need any technology to ease the process. |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: GUEST,Praiseatwork Date: 22 Feb 00 - 12:17 PM I'm in. |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: Bert Date: 22 Feb 00 - 01:01 PM As far as the copyright issue is concerned I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult (maybe tedious though) to obtain permission from the mudcatters involved. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: The Shambles Date: 22 Feb 00 - 03:00 PM The CD Rom idea would enable the inclusion of music, which is a very important part of the whole thing. Songs tunes and the best of Mudcat Radio could also be included. |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: Amos Date: 22 Feb 00 - 03:03 PM OK, then I would suggest a combination product -- now this will be a first -- a fat tome in the old style with deathless literature weaving the deathless threads of the 'Cat, with a CD in the back!! Images and sogs!! Now, we are hot! Can you imagine what might have been on such a CD in the back, say, of "Ulysses" or "Gravity's Rainbow" ?? I mean, like, woow, man. |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Feb 00 - 03:52 PM Sogs, definitely. That's a lovely word - just needs a meaning to match.
The great thing with the Mudcat is being able to leap from thread to thread by links, and click to links to other sites that bec ame relevant.A CD-Rom could do that, but with the messy bits left out, except where dealing with it was in some ways a positive experience. And where a song came up, a sound file could be linked in.
This could be fun. Only hassle I can imagine is it might really take off, and the Mudcat gets inundated with tourists and vandals. |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: Jon Freeman Date: 22 Feb 00 - 04:14 PM I am not sure of copyright law but would imagine and have always posted in the belief that whatever I have said becomes ethier public or possibly gives Mudcat the rights to use it. I am not suggesting that any of my contributions would be used and would not argue if they were but I would be unhappy about it. I seem to be alone on this issue but I feel like treating contributions in this way is going against the spirit of a discussion forum. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: Amos Date: 22 Feb 00 - 04:23 PM Jon My vision of this project would include, from the very beginning, a proviso of consenting participation, and nothing would be used by any contributer without giving him the full and fair opportunity to decline the honor of inclusion. I am open to any other thoughts on this issue, but I can assure you I would never violate a writer's wishes about his discussions on the Cat, regardless of the legal interpretation of the matter. I respect those who make the Cat what it is, and the flavor of any effort I undertook would be in that spirit. A |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: Amos Date: 22 Feb 00 - 04:46 PM McGrath: Sogs, of course, are songs that are too weakly written to send out -- they are verses in need of Viagra, saggy ballads and curdled carols, fetid feelings, curled-up couplets, stanzas without standing, flaccid folksongs, limp rhymes in need of starch, deflated scansion, indifferently passioned and unworthy to poke into the steamy hot, waiting, hungering, eerie canal of the World. Sogs, indeed. A |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: Jon Freeman Date: 22 Feb 00 - 05:27 PM Cheers Amos and sorry to be the miserable sod. On that sort of understanding, I wish the project success. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: Amos Date: 22 Feb 00 - 05:33 PM No misery to it, Jon -- you are entitled to ask anything on something of this sort. A |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: catspaw49 Date: 22 Feb 00 - 06:07 PM I keep reading this thread and reviewing the past ones on a similar subject and I cannot help now but to ask....Why? I'm quite serious, who cares about what is being said here? If you are talking about a book related to traditional folk and song backgrounds and the collective wisdom of many members, I can see it. Perhaps Peter's thoughts and some things of that ilk, but a lot of the threads that are mentioned are just a bunch of folks entertaining, debating, or kidding each other and a lot of that is based on personal relationships that have developed. The way this "village" operates as opposed to a real world village and that kind of thing??? I thought at one point that there was something there, but I really think its just so much drivel. Its hard enough as a member here to keep up with all the comings and goings. I can't see that anyone would really enjoy reading the psychology or whatever of this place. Can someone try explaining to me again what this book would be about.....Yeah, I know, about 250 pages.......Seriously, what? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: The Shambles Date: 22 Feb 00 - 07:07 PM Sogs about unicorms? |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: wysiwyg Date: 22 Feb 00 - 09:13 PM Spaw: It would be about you. Everyone else: and you, and you, and you. Cuz we're kyool, man! I still say articles first, going to a book with music CD (or just the CD-ROM) when there are enuff articles and stuff to go ahead. Just to keep it manageable, allow you to structure the material, facilitate a maerketing crescendo. But whatever your format, I'll help. |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: GUEST,Marymac90 Date: 22 Feb 00 - 10:00 PM Not to be stealing Simon-Pierre's thunder, or anyone else's, but I was talking to Max just the other week about such a project, and I expressed interest in working on it. He offered to let me work at the mudcat office, since my computer is slower than sludge. I am starting a temp job tomorrow, but at some point, the "temp" will be up, and I'll be unemployed again, perhaps for the summer. I might be able to get into the mudcat office one day a week, and work from home in between. I can do some stuff re: a printed book, but I don't know anything about either audio cd's or cd-rom's. I would be interested in finding others to collaborate with on this-no sense re-inventing the wheel. We should try to figure out who's on this editorial team, and start dialoging among ourselves about what needs to be done, in what order, etc. Let's be clear about who we are, and then start a mini-email list, so we can all be on the same "page". Mary McCaffrey |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: catspaw49 Date: 22 Feb 00 - 10:04 PM So Mac...What was it you and Max were talking about? I'm just a country hick and I still don't get what this venture is really about. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: simon-pierre Date: 22 Feb 00 - 11:31 PM Spaw, All your objections are right. You ask what that would be about, I just answer: folk music! I don't think it would be interesting for someone outside Mudcat to read about the friendship and all that kind of things that has been deveolpped here - and maybe posts that are just chatting for chatting should get retired. But i still think that a book about the vision of folk music of those who practice it as non-professionnals - most of people here i think - reflect on it, and LOVE it, would be a never-seen document, and would surely interest many people outside Mudcat. I hope the project is going on. SP |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: catspaw49 Date: 22 Feb 00 - 11:37 PM Thank you friend Simon. That makes much sense and was what I thought I read into your original idea. I think if we stick to that idea, it sounds fine and interesting both. There is plenty of material here for that. Going very far afield from this didn't make much sense. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: Amos Date: 23 Feb 00 - 01:20 PM Well, maybe I'm sticking a long oar into a short creek, but I submit that there is a lot of consequence to that simple theme, and that as a result the book would be larger in mnay dimensions than y'all are implying. Folk music is our unifying tale, here. But 'Spaw, with all due respect Praise is right. The book would be about you. Just for a small example, the deathless myth of the Dead Man's Curve dialogues, or the whacky classics from other Taverns. Or the dialogues about all the major concerns, personal and tribal, that have come and gone from this site over the years. These thing reflect a far larger domain than folkies, or at least show a far greater dimension than just their musical sides. Imagine, if you will, sitting around in some dank tavern in Philadelphia during the steamy malarial summer of 1776 (I think) listneing to Adams, Franklin and Jefferson banter and argue and jest while they came up with the Declaration...or sitting in at the Algonquin Club (if it was really all its cracked up to be). Or hanging out in Anne Hathaway's parlor, or whatever she had, when young Will came wooing (I ain't lettin' mah gurl go out with no starvin poet who cain't even spell his own nayum!). I submit, sir, that there are certain times when the matrix of minds come together in a new way and generate scinitllating, exciting literature from the roots up. I further submit that the time of the Mudcat is one of those times, if only we can stretch our hardnosed imaginations enough to see it, which is the hardest thing to do when these seedling moments are upon us. I walked MacDougal Street in the same days as Bob Dylan and Dave van Ronk, and had Ibut had the sense to realize where I was, I wouldn't be where I am. Finally, my dear honored friend, I submit that these moments of incipiently colossal literatchoor always have in their chaotic meiotic mechanisms a few titans, whose raw energy makes the vital difference, and that in the present case you must number yourself among that lot. We may be talking two books here. One for the annals of folk music, and another for the annals of mankind. A |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: katlaughing Date: 23 Feb 00 - 04:33 PM Well said, Amos! I have always felt there was much more of importance, just as a comment on the evolution of society, than what the folk music alone chronicles. I believe a book of the micrcosm could become required reading in some classes. This is virgin territory we are dealing with, shaping, creating, sharing and we all have a hand in it. The Internet is having a huge and lasting impact on humankind, and I, personally, feel the Mudcat embodies the best it can engender and should be held up as an example of that. Okay, now, Max has said go with it. How about we start divving up threads to edit, then send on those suggested edits to you or whomever wants to volunteer to compile the chapters? There's lots of thoughts on how the chapers etc. should come together, etc. in the previous threads. As I said, I have many of my favourites in my WP program already. I could do one or two of those or any others you'd like and we have plenty of other volunteers, so.....LET'S DO IT! katlaughing |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: Amos Date: 23 Feb 00 - 07:47 PM Kat: I would appreciate a list of those threads you know of which have important stuff in them, on the basis that you would know as much as anyone what that means and where to find it. By important I mean reflecting our place in history, our view of our histories, our sense of being, our best humor and play, as well as our music and our feelings about living in various facets and forms. What I would love to do is dream up the strand which should marry these scores of clouds of genius in the Mudcat cosmos. I would appreciate a similar list from anyone who has a strong sense of importance dialogue or creative writing or historical moment or sheer beauty in any thread that has dropped off the bottom in the last few years. I know there is rich stuff in there. I am frankly toying with the idea of taking a sabbatical from my boring job just to mine that lode! Another need is a thread -- which I will start -- openly seeking assent (maybe on the basis that silence will be construed as consent after a certain number of days or weeks) for past contributors to have their writings included in the tome. Or, to have them define what they are willing to do in that regard. I'll try to work out a clear plan on the real book idea -- it is going to take some dreamtime on my part on this, it is a large-scale idea which is -- I feel -- is very important. This discussion is naturally open to all suggestions. A |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: wysiwyg Date: 24 Feb 00 - 02:26 AM To untangle the "purpose" or "scope" question, Music Thoughts Only vs. Music with Madcap Mudcat Mutterings, Uncut" What could resolve this either/or question would be to take the old and/and approach. The people who live in the graphic arts world save the day in such instances--- think VISUAL. There is one type face for the body of the book (the Music for Music's Sake material) and another type style for the running Mudchat that weaves around the pages in little shaded streams over the edges and through the words (to grandmother's... no) Sorry I am not myself a graphic designer but such problems can easily be seen in their resolutiuon by looking at any contemporary textbook. Amos, look at one of Barky's-- I think you'll find the problem is gone. Type style, boxes, bullets, all at our disposal. See also how online encyclo's are set up. But beware of trying to transfer from one medium to another, intact. Por ejemplo, I was with a company that sells BILLIONS of blank audio cassettes to churches. The churches use the cassettes to record and distribute sermons, music, etc. The company decided to open a department to persuade train churches to build their own cassette ministry, to use cassettes for outreach, the whole deal. But they tried to market these ministry-development materials through a printed catalog and made a lovely printed book full of ideas and success stories "from real churches!"
The ONE item that worked best to spread the passion for cassette ministry was... cassettesa about casette ministry. It took them 3 years of painful R&D to see this. One 60-minute tape could replace all the print stuff, because the tape itself delivered the most powerful message: Tapes Work. (Thank you Mr. McLuhan, we'll try not to forget you in this new K!)
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: canoer Date: 24 Feb 00 - 02:56 AM RE getting permission -- when we post to a thread, we accept a large and imprecise audience, so don't our posts enter a public domain of some sort? I know, another question for the lawyers... |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: Amos Date: 24 Feb 00 - 09:15 AM Thanks for the thoughts, and I have been thinking along these lines likewise. Medium is the message; but the place of the real book is not yet past. The difference, of course, is that a "real" book is serially accessed, just as a tape is. But the thread here is making a Mudcat book --- or at least making literature from the amzing matrices of meaning that are the 'Cat's legacy. This needs some pondering -- a multimedia extravaganza would be interesting, with animations and music thrown in. Worlds of possibility there. Maybe we have three projects in here... |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: Amos Date: 24 Feb 00 - 04:47 PM Fraises |
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Subject: RE: Proposal from Simon-Pierre From: Amos Date: 26 Feb 00 - 12:11 AM Encore des fraises (re-fraises). |
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