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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: JedMarum Date: 05 Mar 00 - 10:35 AM chuckle - good point, Diesel! |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: InOBU Date: 04 Mar 00 - 11:59 PM McGrath, old friend: You bring up a good point, and a good song. There is a rarely sung sean nos song about the murder at Ballyseedy of Rubublicans by free staters who bound them to, and exploded a land mine, killing all but one. The young woman I heard the song from had the honnor of singing it to the lone survivor. It is would be a great diservice to so many to wait until they all are dead to remember their sacrifices to Ireland. Further, the best way to repete history, is not to remember, but to forget. As to being on the other side of the Atlantic, if it were not for policies of forced migration, there would not be so many Irish Americans. Now I know some of you are going to pipe in - blaiming the birth rate, and with 55 milion Irish Americans, that is not a completely bad point. There would just be more republicans, in Ireland, in the north, if it were not for the shoot to kill policy, arrest without warrent, trial without jurry, unequal housing and job oppertunities and all the host of other reasons that over the past decades created an environment wherein the nationalist community could not sustain a majority colectively after the majority of so many individualy speaking - pardon the pun. Well, with out a divergence of points of view, there would be no horse races, and then where would Ireland be? Slan Larry |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: GUEST,Diesel Date: 04 Mar 00 - 08:02 PM A paraphrase from the film 'Braveheart' - History is wrote by the victorious or those that were not there - Maybe thats why we sing it and feel strongly and with passion, as we feel we are the victors, just as many a loyalist will sing passionately their tune, as they belive they too are the victors. It's only when one listens to the passion from the other side do you feel ill-tempered as it reminds you that on this occasion you are the losing side. Some audiences will quite happily listen and partake and be passionate about songs from either side, they never feel they are on wrong or losing side - only the other side - of the Atlantic ! Is mise
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Mar 00 - 01:49 PM "And anyway it's just a fun song to sing-a-long with at parties."
It's the very fact that there are people who might see a song like this as a fun song that would mean it shouldn'y be sung in that kind of context.
Maybe some day when the troubles of Ireland are all behind us, fun songs might be ok, but not yet, no way.
And one reason I'd be hesitant about this song is that the worst atrocities in the Troubles in the Twenties weren't carried out by the Black and Tans or the Aiuxies - they were carried out by the Free State against Republicans in the Civil War, and that is something which has been suppressed in too many people's memories, because it is too painful to think about. |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: InOBU Date: 03 Mar 00 - 07:15 PM Dear mcmoo: I hope I was not missunderstood in that you felt I was casting dispersions on your knowlege of Irish history. Rather, what I refer to is a culutral trend towards denial and putting aside certain knowelege, which then must be reclaimed in the future. For example, compaired to the huge impact on the history of Ireland, there is comperably few songs about it, unlike military defetes, there seems to have been a deep felt feeling of shame associated with the horror. Personaly, I would be careful about how and when I would sing most republican songs anywhere, so that there they are presented in the spirit of these times. For example, one of the few songs of that ilk I perform of late, is the riddle of the rum, a song from the United Mens uprising, which many think is anti protestant as there is a line about keeping the fires of liberty blazing, - til we extinguish Luthors creed and Georges generation -. As I introduce it, I point out that it is in fact, a protestant republican song, which was meant at the time, to endorce the adoption of French Humanist religion. I have allways felt there is more chance of reconcillition by getting to know as much about all sides as possible, the cure to speach one dislikes, like here at mudcat, is more speach. As always, the best Is mise le meas! Larry |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: paddyc Date: 03 Mar 00 - 04:52 PM Jed- You're absolutely right. If I was performing in Ireland I wouldn't do that one no matter where I was. But in North America people do understand the troubles over there. They just aren't surrounded by these troubles everyday. And anyway it's just a fun song to sing-a-long with at parties. Willy Brennan. |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: JedMarum Date: 03 Mar 00 - 04:37 PM mcmoo - yiu need to understand that I do have an understanding, albeit limited, of the historical matters behind the song. If I was travelling in Ireland I would not choose to perform the song there, because I understand the sensitivities of the issues. I sing many songs from a historical perspective that have terms, and express ideas that I do not use or support - but they make sense from a historical point-of-view, and express the author's view. An example of a term might be 'darkies' the song line from a lovely American folk tune says, "In the evening by the moonlight, you can hear those darkies singing" - well I would never use an expressoin like that, but it is appropriate for the song, and need not be assumed a racist comment. I also sing the glories Confederate (American) Civil War soldiers - but this does not make mean I support the Confederate cause. When I sing Black and Tans or songs of that ilk, I understand the risk, but in the US, most people are unaware of the issues, and take the song at face value ... it expresses the feelings one man (the author) felt, in days gone by. I do have a personal connection with the Balck and Tans era, through stories passed down, and do not feel the way the author of this song feels, but I do understand the impact that era had on my family, 80 years later. I posted a song on the subject here). |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: Lady McMoo Date: 03 Mar 00 - 03:41 AM Dear Larry, I believe I am as knowledgeable on Irish history as you and fully understand the significance of some of these old (and new) songs and well as your point about the revisionist version of history regularly served up in most places. My point is I do not think any useful purpose is served by performing such songs these days which is why I will never do them. Songs of peace and reconciliation...yes. Martial songs from the past....no. All the best, mcmoo |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: InOBU Date: 02 Mar 00 - 10:55 PM Funny how in this day and age we turn away from songs that contradict the revisionist history as put forward in the Irish schools these days. In fact, the song memorializes the fact that in the Republic, once upon a time, the same human rights abuses common in the northern counties was once common place. In order to buy the criminaliation policy of Britain towards the same insurection that gave you your Irish passport, one has to turn away from the actions of the Auxies, Black and Tans, the Essex regiment - who exicuted prisoners and behaved in ways the the civilized world found to be repugnant. My band happens not to do republican songs often, as in the US, most Irish Americans treat them as fight songs, with little real knowlege of the republican movement - however, there are hugely knowlegable Irish and Irish american audiences as well, and for them, sometimes I sing the more obscure ones. I urge you not to turn away from Irelands past, but incorporate it into your understanding of the present. And finally, to quote my old late friend Bill Kunstler, never trust your government, who ever they are. All the best Larry |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 Mar 00 - 09:29 PM Strictly speaking the Black and Tans and the Auxies weren't the same, though it didn't make a great deal of difference, because they both tended to act the same way. It's how occupying armies tend to behave. And turning a blind eye to it is how the people who own the occupying armies tend to behave. That includes police forces who see parts of their own country as as occupied territory. There's something in the Bible about motes and beams isn't there? |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: paddyc Date: 01 Mar 00 - 11:17 PM I have to say it's an awesome song. Not that I agree with all the ideas in it, but the tune is awesome and there's something about the sound of it. It's fun to play at the party. I agree with mcmoo, but I've always found there's no problem with singing the rebel tunes just be careful who ur singing them to. Willy Brennan |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: Gary T Date: 01 Mar 00 - 10:08 AM Interesting point, mcmoo. Here in the U.S., I can't recall ever hearing a song from the "Orange" point of view. It seems there is a spirit among some of those who enjoy Irish music of "Let's rally behind the (Green) Irish", akin to the St. Patrick's day feeling of "everybody's Irish today". While I'm sure many don't have any real political convictions on the matter, and simply find the song entertaining and perhaps informative, there are others who are indeed partisan and take it rather seriously. And as you say, this may be part of the problem. It's like the philosophy behind advertising--if a message is repeated often enough, some of it is bound to sink in. I would guess that in Ireland, particularly Northern Ireland, one might indeed fan some flames of ill will with such songs. Over here, the effect is muted, and I would like to think that I'm not propagating any hatred with it, but--you've given me something to think about. |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: Lady McMoo Date: 01 Mar 00 - 09:29 AM Dear Gary T, I am Irish and find this and similar songs from both "traditions" quite distasteful in this day and age. I never include any such material in my repertoire, neither do I accept any requests for it, as I believe it serves no useful purpose. This is by way of addressing your comments earlier about those identifying/sympathizing with the Irish really enjoying it and it being a "crowd pleaser". Perhaps this is part of the problem. For similar reasons I normally refrain from posting in the many "troubles" threads. Yours respectfully, mcmoo |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: alison Date: 01 Mar 00 - 09:06 AM can anyone send me the tune?? slainte alison |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: JedMarum Date: 01 Mar 00 - 08:51 AM Em D Em G D Em B7 repeat |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: GUEST,brent Date: 01 Mar 00 - 01:44 AM could any one give me the chords to come out ye black and tans, thanks
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: JedMarum Date: 29 Feb 00 - 08:50 AM ... by my reading of history, I believe the Black and Tans were an unruley bunch of ex-World War I soldiers, with no job prospects at home, and an ax to grind over the guerilla tactics of the IRA. The Black and Tans, in many instances, took retaliation against the towns people of Ireland for actions that were taken by the IRA, and which were not actually supported by most townspeople. Regional and world opinion very quickly turned against the English government for their use of the Black and Tans, and the British government's capacity to overlook the lawlessness and brutality of this para-military organization. |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: GUEST Date: 28 Feb 00 - 09:07 PM The Black and Tans were properly called the Police Cadet Auxillarys.The name Black and Tans came from a famous South Tipperary Hunt and was coined because of the lack of proper uniforms available for this unit.To kit out the members of this fource a mix and match arrangement was arrived at,where some wore khaki tunics and dark trousers and on others the uniform was reversed.Although this fource was guilty of some of the most outrageous atrocities of the 1921-1922 troubles theree is no evidence to support an argument that military convicts were used as personel for this unit. |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: Martin _Ryan Date: 28 Feb 00 - 02:38 PM Neil Glad to hear Brian has brought that tape out. Must get a copy. I've heard him talk/sing on the subject and it's fascinating.Learned "The Orange Maid of Sligo" from him (which incidentally, is as near as dammit the air used for "Avondale" which Behan also wrote) and, I think, the old versions of Irish Molly from which the tune used for "The Sash" probably came. Regards |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: MarciaP Date: 28 Feb 00 - 02:01 PM Gary T, yes Tom Dahill is still playing. I often get to see him perform in the KCMO area....always fun to dance to! Marcia |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: GUEST,Diesel Date: 27 Feb 00 - 06:59 PM Don't know if this is of any use to you or the question you first asked, but the Black & Tans were a unit/regiment made up of military convicts from WW1 mixed with decomissioned soldiers.Recruited in 1920 specifically for the war/insurrections in Ireland the British government found they could not uniform all the troops in the one cloth.The uniform eventually decided upon was a make of from two - the black trousers of the police with the Tan tunics of the military. Such was the lack of control of these 'troops' that their reputation for violence and brutality survives 'till today. Even the 'regular' British troops have been known to despise the actions of the black and tans. As for the verse with the references to Larkin,O'Brien wexford croppy boys etc - I have to admit it's the first I have ever heard of it.My recollection of the song from years back never mentioned this verse (wolf tones Let the people sing ) anybody know the true version ? |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: GUEST,Neil Comer Date: 27 Feb 00 - 06:22 AM The tune of 'Come out......' is the same tune as The Bright Orange Heroes of Comber, from the opposite end of the political/religious divide. There are a lot of songs which share tunes, but not sentiment in the Irish tradition. If you get a chance, check out, ' Aspects of a Shared Heritage,' pub. Gael-Linn ( English Street, Armagh, Co. Armagh) a tape made by the wonderful singer, Brian Mullen, of such songs. |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: toogan Date: 27 Feb 00 - 05:05 AM Sorry if this is a repeat answer, but I think the "black and tans" refers to the colour of the uniform for the Ulster Volunteer Force - the proddies, who were supported and encouraged by the English to "keep order" in whatever way they wanted to. Christine, Australia |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: Bob Bolton Date: 27 Feb 00 - 12:23 AM G;day all, Of course, what Alan has posted is the tune to The Smashing of the Van, which appeared above 22 Feb, 00; 9.57pm. Regards, Bob Bolton |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: GUEST,agurgan@zoom.co.uk Date: 26 Feb 00 - 07:27 PM "come out ye black and tans" written by one of the Behans recorded on a live L.P. in Mark McLoughlins pub in Dundalk Co Louth in 1970 by "Marks Men" on Outlet SBOL 4011. eringo brath folk fans! |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: Alan of Australia Date: 26 Feb 00 - 06:17 PM G'day, Thanks to Bob the tune can be found here at the Mudcat MIDI site.
Cheers, |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: GUEST,Martin Ryan Date: 24 Feb 00 - 03:48 AM Thanks, Bob! Regards |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: Bob Bolton Date: 24 Feb 00 - 12:51 AM G'day Alison, I just checked to make sure that I have Alan's email ... and I do, so i shall pass the MIDI file on. It is only a one line MIDI from the melody set out in my music editing program, but it gives the tune. Regards, Bob Bolton |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: alison Date: 23 Feb 00 - 09:40 PM Bob, can you send the MIDI to Alan... and he'll put it on the Mudcat MIDI site? slainte alison |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: Bob Bolton Date: 23 Feb 00 - 08:45 PM G'day Martin, Well may you ask! Luckily I had an enginnering scholar working at the next station. The procedure is:
Select My Computer Icon Regards, Bob Bolton
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: Martin _Ryan Date: 23 Feb 00 - 07:57 PM Bob Where IS NT's equivalent of Scandisc? Regards |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: JedMarum Date: 23 Feb 00 - 02:27 PM Thanks Bob, and all for comments. This is most helpful info. |
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Subject: Tune/Chords Add: SMASHING OF THE VAN From: Bob Bolton Date: 22 Feb 00 - 10:29 PM Er, yeah, G'day again ... It also posted when it said that it hadn't. Sorry about that (Can any handy thread administrator delete the second copy?) Maybe that related to the unsuccessful attempts to read the floppy? Anyway, the floppy came back to life when I finally out where NT hides its obscure equivalent of ScanDisk, so, if there was a contract out on it,it didn't work. Here are outstanding bits for The Smashing of the Van: The MIDI file is available here at the Mudcat MIDI site. ABC format: X:1
Chord sequence (at least, as I see it) is (key of G) is:
|G . . . . . /D7 . . C . . /G . . C . . /G . . . . .| Regards, Bob Bolton |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE SMASHING OF THE VAN ^^ From: Bob Bolton Date: 22 Feb 00 - 09:57 PM G'day all, I looked up The Smashing of the Van in Paddy Galvin and I have the words and tune - plus some background on the event. In 1863 the Fenian journal, the Irish People, appeared in Dublin; it was edited by Luby and O'Leary, with the help of Kickham and O'Donovan Rossa. The violent denunciations with which it was greeted served only to increase its popularity. In 1865 the ending of the American Civil War demobilized 200,000 Irish-American Fenians. The Irish People was raided and its leaders were arrested. Stephens escaped (with the help of Fenian warders); Devoy urged immediate insurrection, but Stephens and the Americans insisted on delay. The arrested leaders were brought to trial before Keogh, who inflicted savage sentences of twenty years on Luby, O'Leary and Kickham and of life on Rossa. Devoy was arrested and Stephens proved ineffective in leadership. In America the movement split and split again as a result of inconclusive delays. In 1867 a rising was planned, at first for February, then for March; Kerry and the North of England were not informed of the change of date, rose too soon and thus gave warning to the authorities. In addition, the March 'rising' coincided with an exceptionally violent blizzard. There was practically no fighting. The Fenian military leaders, Kelley and Deasy, were arrested in Manchester. but daringly rescued, a policeman being killed. The rescuers, Allen. Larkin and O'Brien, were hanged, and are known to history as the Manchester Martyrs. (Ernest Jones, the Chartist, as defence counsel, threw down his brief in protest at the court's refusal to remove the prisoners' handcuffs in the dock.) The celebrated song God Save Ireland. written in their honour, was for fifty years Ireland's unofficial national anthem.
The Smashing of the Van Something very odd has happened to the MIDItext file and chord list. Along with the scan I just did for the words above ... none of the three files would open in Microsoft Word or Notepad ... the computer claims that all the files are empty!?! Does Bill Gates have links to MI5 ... ? I will go apply electronic resuscitation and return shortly if successful. If not, I may be back with the files from my home computer tomorrow ... if they haven't also vanished! Regards, Bob Bolton ^^ |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: paddymac Date: 22 Feb 00 - 01:02 PM The great song "God Save Ireland", written to the tune of George Root's US Civil War classic "Tramp, Tramp, Tramp" is also about the "Manchester Martyrs", although they are not specifically mentioned by name. |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: Bob Bolton Date: 21 Feb 00 - 10:01 PM G'day all, I may be wrong, but I seem to remember The Smashing of the Van as being in Patrick Galvin's book of Irish Songs of Resistance. I have a copy at home, so I gues I should check. Regards, Bob Bolton |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Feb 00 - 09:43 PM Hanged, and known as "The Manchester Martyrs". There's one song mentioning them in the DT, but it's not The Smashing of the Van. |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: Martin _Ryan Date: 21 Feb 00 - 08:15 PM Allen, Larkin and O'Brien were three Fenians involved in an incident (the "smashing of the van") in the mid-19th century. They turn up in a couple of Republican songs. Regards |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: JedMarum Date: 21 Feb 00 - 03:20 PM It is a great tune! |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: Molly Malone Date: 21 Feb 00 - 03:08 PM We do that one by request, simply because it's not a period song to do at a Ren Faire. But on occassion we'll sit at a green and get a request for it...and of course that will bring on a host of rebel tune requests!
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: fulurum Date: 21 Feb 00 - 02:59 PM i just cheked the wolfetones letthe people sing album and they do credit dominic behan as the writer of the song. |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: JedMarum Date: 21 Feb 00 - 02:31 PM My great-grandfather was born in Galway, and living in the US by his late teens. I can only imagine how he felt about the news he was hearing through the world press in those days of 1920, and in fact throughout the Civil War era, but I do know he was certain to tell his grandchildren the stories he had heard. He did not pass on hatred, but concern for his people, and the incidents that had taken place.
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: Parthenon Date: 21 Feb 00 - 01:40 PM "Come out ye Black & Tans" featured on a double album released by the "Wolfe Tones" about 1980.It is currently available on their "Let the People Sing" CD. I am not sure who wrote it, I do own the 1980 album but i do not have it with me. The highly republican nature of the song made it very popular around 1981 at the time of the Maze prison hunger strikes. I saw them perform it live on stage in the Limerick area at that time |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: paddymac Date: 21 Feb 00 - 11:11 AM I have a songbook by Dominic Behan called "Ireland Sings: An anthology of Irish songs and ballads", 1973, Tro Essex Music Limited, ISBN 0-8256-9341-1. It does not include "Come Out Ye Black & Tans", which is a bit of a surprise since I have long thought he wrote the song. I think I have it in a book somewhere, but I can't put my hand on it right now. I'll look for it and come back. |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: JedMarum Date: 21 Feb 00 - 10:49 AM Thanks Gary. good info |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: Gary T Date: 21 Feb 00 - 10:47 AM Thanks, Terry, I was afraid of that. I also forgot to answer the last question. I do sing it, and I like to preface it with brief account of who the "Black and Tans" are, as well as the story of how it came to be written, to help the audience understand what is being said and why (I'm in the U.S.). It is a crowd pleaser. Those who identify/sympathize with the Irish really enjoy it. While it's conceivable someone who leans towards the British point of view may find it distasteful, no one has ever confronted me on it. I'm inclined to think either no one over here has strong British sympathies, or they prefer to keep it to themselves. |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: Terry K Date: 21 Feb 00 - 10:30 AM Yes, you did mix up the names, Behan is the surname. |
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Subject: RE: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: Gary T Date: 21 Feb 00 - 10:25 AM I have it on a tape by Tom Dahill. He grew up in an Irish-American part of the Minneapolis/St. Paul area (in Minnesota, USA), and visited Ireland to flesh out his Irish music repertoire. As far as I know, he is still a professional singer/musician, doing mostly or exclusively Irish music. He introduces the song with a bit of background for it. It was written by one of the Brendan brothers (Dominick and Behan--I think Dominick wrote it), and is based on their father Steven, mentioned in the song. They grew up in an area of Dublin that had many retired British Army officers. Steven Brendan would often spend the night at the pub, then come home "under the influence" and call out his neighbors to fight. I'm writing this from memory, so I apologize if I goofed on any details, but I'm pretty sure the gist is correct. I may have mixed up "Brendan" and "Behan" (in other words, it's Dominick and Brendan Behan). For some reason, I always thought the song dated from the 60's, but I don't know for sure. I too am curious about the three names mentioned, but haven't gotten around to doing any research on them. Hopefully another Mudcatter can provide the rest of the info. |
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Subject: Questions re: Come Out Black & Tans? From: JedMarum Date: 21 Feb 00 - 09:28 AM I am curious about the background of this song. It is listed in the DT - called, COME OUT YE BLACK AND TANS. However there is no info about the song, listed along with it. It is not a very old song, since the subject matter places it origins sometime after 1920, yet it is attributed to no author. Who claims authorship? I am also curious about some of the historical references. The song says, "Allen, Larkin, and O'Brien, How you bravely called them swine." Who were these three, and why are they important to the song? Finally, I'd like to know if you are singing this tune? It is a real kick as# sort of song, and gets the crowd pumped, though I suspect most US crowd have little understanding of the subject. |
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