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Help: relation between Ireland & Van Diemen's Land

DigiTrad:
VAN DIEMAN'S LAND
VAN DIEMANS LAND (YOUNG MEN BEWARE)


Related threads:
Folklore: Van Diemen's Land (47)
Lyr Add: Van Diemen's Land (29)
Van Diemen (not Van Dieman) (15)
Tune Req: Van Diemen's Land (from U2) (8)
Van Diemen's Land (Revisited) (1)


GUEST,ChrisE 23 Feb 00 - 05:53 AM
alison 23 Feb 00 - 06:03 AM
GUEST, Bob Bolton('s home computer) 23 Feb 00 - 06:05 AM
jofield 23 Feb 00 - 09:00 AM
Amos 23 Feb 00 - 09:06 AM
wysiwyg 23 Feb 00 - 10:33 AM
Molly Malone 23 Feb 00 - 10:59 AM
MMario 23 Feb 00 - 11:02 AM
Amos 23 Feb 00 - 11:03 AM
Willie-O 23 Feb 00 - 11:08 AM
paddymac 23 Feb 00 - 11:11 AM
AndyG 23 Feb 00 - 11:27 AM
Amos 23 Feb 00 - 11:42 AM
wysiwyg 23 Feb 00 - 11:54 AM
annamill 23 Feb 00 - 12:39 PM
wysiwyg 23 Feb 00 - 01:48 PM
GUEST,ChrisE 23 Feb 00 - 02:20 PM
wysiwyg 23 Feb 00 - 02:21 PM
Amos 23 Feb 00 - 02:24 PM
Bob Bolton 23 Feb 00 - 04:48 PM
GUEST,art 23 Feb 00 - 05:04 PM
wysiwyg 23 Feb 00 - 10:02 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Feb 00 - 02:00 PM
GUEST,Annraoi 24 Feb 00 - 02:52 PM
Bert 24 Feb 00 - 03:14 PM
Calach 24 Feb 00 - 05:12 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Feb 00 - 05:32 PM
Bob Bolton 24 Feb 00 - 05:37 PM
Amos 24 Feb 00 - 06:58 PM
Calach 25 Feb 00 - 01:42 AM
Bob Bolton 25 Feb 00 - 07:06 AM
Calach 25 Feb 00 - 09:13 AM
Shimbo Darktree 25 Feb 00 - 11:52 AM
Amos 25 Feb 00 - 12:13 PM
Bob Bolton 26 Feb 00 - 03:49 AM
Calach 26 Feb 00 - 04:56 AM
GUEST,Curtis & Loretta 26 Feb 00 - 02:04 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Feb 00 - 02:24 PM
Bob Bolton 26 Feb 00 - 09:22 PM
GUEST 27 Feb 00 - 01:05 AM
Callie 27 Feb 00 - 05:00 PM
Bob Bolton 27 Feb 00 - 09:40 PM
Callie 27 Feb 00 - 09:58 PM
Bob Bolton 28 Feb 00 - 12:50 AM
GUEST 28 Feb 00 - 02:05 AM
Callie 28 Feb 00 - 03:06 AM
Bob Bolton 28 Feb 00 - 03:19 AM
Tom Davis 28 Feb 00 - 06:41 AM
GUEST,Roger the skiffler 28 Feb 00 - 06:57 AM
Bob Bolton 28 Feb 00 - 04:18 PM
toadfrog 07 May 01 - 10:45 PM
Bob Bolton 08 May 01 - 12:37 AM
CRANKY YANKEE 08 May 01 - 01:07 AM
GUEST,Maureen Cummuskey 08 May 01 - 01:35 AM
Roo 08 May 01 - 08:31 AM
Big Tim 08 May 01 - 09:26 AM
GUEST,John Gray/Australia 08 May 01 - 12:28 PM
toadfrog 08 May 01 - 09:47 PM
GUEST,Chris 09 May 01 - 09:51 AM
GUEST,Just looking 12 Nov 05 - 09:11 AM
GUEST,Just looking 12 Nov 05 - 09:25 AM
John Routledge 12 Nov 05 - 09:44 AM
Georgiansilver 12 Nov 05 - 12:30 PM
Celtaddict 12 Nov 05 - 02:22 PM
Helen 12 Nov 05 - 04:16 PM
paddymac 12 Nov 05 - 07:40 PM
Dave'sWife 14 Nov 05 - 09:40 PM
Malcolm Douglas 14 Nov 05 - 11:24 PM
Joybell 14 Nov 05 - 11:39 PM
GUEST,caitlynJ 31 Aug 08 - 11:47 PM
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Subject: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land
From: GUEST,ChrisE
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 05:53 AM

Hi! Does anyone know the relation between Ireland and Van Diemen's land??? Need it for my Cert. (very quick), hope that anyone can help me!? Thanx Chris


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: alison
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 06:03 AM

Van Diemen's Land.. is Australia (possibly Tasmania)..... Irish (and English criminals)were transported here as punishment for their crimes.

If you need a song mentioning it.. look up "Back home in Derry" in the database...

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: GUEST, Bob Bolton('s home computer)
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 06:05 AM

G'day ChrisE,

Van Dieman's Land, now Tasmania, was the furthest place Britain could send her most undesirable convicts. Botany Bay, the first settlement, these days a suburb of Sydney, New South Wales, was first sentence. Tasmania was for worse (more anti-British) types or second offenders.

A lot of Irish were recalcitant enough to spend a lot of time in Tasmania. 'Frank the Poet' - Francis MacNamara, a member of a Protestant anti-British "secret society" was sentenced to (?) 7 years originally and served 17 years with extra sentences. He was last recorded leaving Tasmania with some pungent verse on the subject.

When I first went to Cygnet, south of Hobart, in 1966 the population was 90% of (some degree of) Irish descent (compared to 40% for Australia generally). There I found traces of one of Franks poems from the 1830s, still remembered as a song - celebrating the escape from second (third?) sentence to the hell hole of Macquarie Harbour of several (mostly Irish convicts who seized the brig "Cyprus" when the soldier's guard was down and sailed away, hoping to reach Japan and freedom.

I hope some of this helps. Look for "Cyprus Brig" in the DT.

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: jofield
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 09:00 AM

Many years ago, a friend of mine used to sing a song about the convicts which contained the lyrics --

"They'll hook ya to the plow, me boys,
To plow Van Diemen's Land."

Anyone know where this comes from?

James.


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Amos
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 09:06 AM

From "Female Transport" (See DT):

Tt hurt me heart when in the coach me native town passed by
To see so many I did know it fairly made me cry
Then to the ship I went with speed along with many more
Whose aching hearts did grieve to go all on Van Dieman's shore.

They chained us two by two and whipped and lashed us all along
They cut off our provisions if we did the least thing wrong
They march us in the burning sun until our feet are sore
So hard our lot now we have got all on Van Dieman's shore.

That pretty well sums up what it was...

We labor hard from morn til night until our bones do ache Then everyone we must obey our mouldy beds to make. We often wish when we lie down that we might rise no more To face our savage Governors all on Van Dieman's shore.


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 10:33 AM

Who was Van Dieman then?


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Molly Malone
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 10:59 AM

Also, the "7 years transportation" that you will see in songs refers to the trip to Van Dieman's Land. A lot of people didn't even survive the trip.


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: MMario
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 11:02 AM

the goals were so crowded that transportees were kept in hulks anchored in the Thames, often for months, before being shipped out. Many didn't survive long enough to set sail.


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Amos
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 11:03 AM

Crowded goals is still a problem even today! Ask any yuppie...


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Willie-O
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 11:08 AM

Ask any hockey ref.

W-O


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: paddymac
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 11:11 AM

Although the Oxford Companion to Irish History is "usually" a helpful place to start looking, I was suprised to find that it does not have an entry on Van Diemen's Land. A glaring ommission. However, the entry on "transportation" reports that transportation to Van Diemen's Land occurred between 1803 and 1868 when transportation was abolished.


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: AndyG
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 11:27 AM

Praise,
Follow this link to find out who Van Diemen (note spelling) was.

AndyG


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Amos
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 11:42 AM

And stop yelling!


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 11:54 AM

AndyG,

Thanks, looks like a great resource, bound to help the thread originator A LOT!


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: annamill
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 12:39 PM

I love this place. We're learning again! Thank goodness!

Love, annap


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 01:48 PM

ChrisE,

Are ye gettin' this?


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: GUEST,ChrisE
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 02:20 PM

Thank you all very much!!!!!!! You have no idea how much you helped me! Thanx! :-)


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 02:21 PM

Come again! Rah certs!


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Amos
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 02:24 PM

Are you cheering for breath mints now, Praise?


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 04:48 PM

G'day Again ChrisE,

It occurred to me after posting last night (Sydney Time) that I may have overstated the case in respect of Tasmania as a 'second sentence' site. Once the settlement built up (founded in 1805) and civilised, convicts were sent there as first destination. Port Arthur even had a special separated prison at Point Puer for juvenile offenders.

Port Arthur also received Irish fenians with a bit higher profile than normal. Smith O'Brien was an Irish Member of Parliament convicted of treason. At Port Arthur, after he signed a parole, guaranteeing not to escape, he was housed in a small separate cottage. During the 1960s I did some restoration work on Smith O'Briens Cottage, which was then being used as the Youth Hostel at Port Arthur. It was up the hill, behind the Women's Prison, next to the Lunatic Asylum - later used as the Town Hall!
Smith O'Brien was contacted by the Irish/American group that financed the American Whaler The Catalpa to rescue Fenians sent to Australia. He explained that he had given his word of honour not to escape - and they carried on to rescue the 7 fenians in Western Australia - look up The Catalpa in the DT.

jofield: The lines are more like -

"They'll yoke you to the plough, my boys,
To plough Van Diemen's Land."

These lines come from the English broadside ballad usually called Van Dieman's Land

This song was proabably of the class of broadsides quietly encouraged by the Government to depict life in the convict settlements as babdly as possible - to counter rumours filtering back to Britain of convicts that served their time and then did well in the new country.

Many of the London poor (including hordes of dispossesed Irish: economic refugees /those evicted by the 'land clearances' of British landlords wishing to run sheep and cattle for the London market / rural labourers left unemployed by changes to broad acre land use / (later) those starved out by the Potato Famine, started to think it might be a good idea to steal something ... and eat that day ... or else get caught and end up in Australia (including V.D.L.) and prosper as they could not in England!

Another example of this class of reverse propaganda broadside is The Convict Maid (should be in DT) - a song that Trish Noakes, in my band of the 1980s Selectors, used to sing as a bit of a weepy. It obviously didn't work on her - she and her husband moved to Tasmania in the early '90s!

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: GUEST,art
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 05:04 PM

as an addendum so many convicts were sent to australia from east anglia (norfolk and suffolk) due to the majistrates owning land in australia.if you compare the modern australian accent with that of east anglia there is an amazing similarity.


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 10:02 PM

Amos,

No, silly, I'm braising them!


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 02:00 PM

Can't say 'Strine seems much like Norfolk to me. There's a lot of London in it, and Essex/Kent. The original Estuary English.

I suspect the main source of 'Strine people is having to talk with their lips closed to keep out the flies and the dust.


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 02:52 PM

Guest, Chriss, Did the Newry revolutionary John Mitchel not spend some time in Van Diemen's Land for his activities in Ireland ? You might care to look up references for the song "John Mitchell" which might give some further lines for your cert. Annraoi


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Bert
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 03:14 PM

I thought that there were several distinct East Anglian accents. Essex, Cambridge, Suffolk, Norfolk etc.. As many if not more than there are counties. And the fishing ports would probably be somewhat different as well.


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Subject: Lyr Add: VAN DIEMEN'S LAND
From: Calach
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 05:12 PM

Van Diemen's Land Lyrics as follows:
(To the tune; THE STAR OF THE COUNTY DOWN)

VAN DIEMEN'S LAND

Come on ye gallant poachers that ramble void o' care
That waltz out on a moonlit night with dog and gun and snare
The harmless hare and pheasant, boys, ye have at your command
Never thinking that you'll be transported to Van Diemen's Land

For fourteen years and longer, I've been a poacher bold
I was aye stout and sturdy and I never felt the cold
One night I went to Ben-a-Bhuird, my gun into my hand
And the last thing on my mind was sailing to Van Diemen's Land

But waiting for to capture me, six keepers in a row
They've caught me and they've tied me, my luck to overthrow
They marched me off to Aberdeen, my trial for to stand
And the next day I am on a ship bound for Van Diemen's Land

'Twas in the month of April we were landed on the shore
The jailers came around us, full half a score or more
They drew us up like horses, and marched us off the sand
And yoked us to the ploughs, me boys, to plough Van Diemen's Land.

The houses that we dwell in here are made of clod and clay
With rotten straw for bedding to end our working day
Around our camps are blazing fires, we slumber when we can
And we fight the wolves and tigers here, upon Van Diemen's Land

Sometimes when I do slumber, I have a pleasant dream
That my true love was along wi' me doon by yon purlin' stream
In Scotland I am walking with her, walking hand in hand
But I wake up broken hearted, here in Van Diemen's Land

Here's a hearty health to all my friends that poacher are by name
Here's a toast unto the poacher lad when in pursuit of game
May they aye be at their liberty, not taken out of hand
Lest they be transported here unto Van Diemen's Land

Here's a health unto my native land as I look out from the shore
And to the bonnie braes o' Mar, for those I'll see no more
Fareweel unto the bonnie lass who'll never understand
Why I was roughly taken from her to Van Diemen's Land


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 05:32 PM

I reckon there's as many accents in East Anglia as there are parishes. I think in the old days that's how they used to amuse themselves in the dark winter nights, in between the songs. Like in Newfoundland where it's said no two parishes have the same accent.

Not that Essex is in East Anglia. Saxons, not Angles. (Though up in Norfolk they're really Danes, when they aren't Dutch.)


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 05:37 PM

G'day Calach,

That is quite a good Scottish Van Dieman's Land. the version in the DT marked Van Dieman's Land (Young Men Beware) is a pretty fair version of the English (probably original - see my posting above) version.

The one simply marked Van Dieman's Land and then headed Wild Young Irish Boy. is an incredible mélange of: Wild Colonial Boy, Van Dieman's Land, Henry Lawson's Trooper Campbell and Captain Starlight ... and God knows what. It even has a verse starting "Now, one morning in the merry month of May ...! I wish I knew more of its provenance - maybe to hunt down the author and put him out of his misery.

Regard(les)s,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Amos
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 06:58 PM

Heart, be still -- a Folkie Hunter! H'ain't seen one o'them in these wood for nigh on twenty years. Big'un, too! Looks kinda mean...hmmmm...big gun...what to do? Guess I'll jes' go hide in that bush over there 'n' be real still an' make a noise like a bodhran...


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Calach
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 01:42 AM

To BOB BOLTON Hi Bob, got those lyrics from an old folk anthology book in Kirkcaldy (Fife) Library. There were 17 versions of the song, so I took the best verses from all of them, put them in some sort of order and made the above version. Hope you don't mind my approach. Ian


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 07:06 AM

G'day Calach,

I don't hold any version to be from the hand of God. Quite a lot od singers - and book editors - would do the same if they did not have a single coherent version they liked. In the context of performance that is only an acceleration of the 'folk process'.

I reckon the result looks fairly consistent and, if you can identify with it, you will probably do a good job. Perhaps it would be nice to make the reworking clear in a scholarly setting ... but probably not when you are on stage.

My real worry was about the different song, headed Wild Young Irish Boy in the Digital Tradition. This has borrowings from at least six traditional sources that I can recognize, no coherence, scores of inconsistencies and anachronisms, is one and a half times longer than any modern audience will sit through and isn't much of a song!

(Oh, BTW: I don't like it.)

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Calach
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 09:13 AM

Where you from Bob, and what do you do folk-wise? I'm in Edinburgh, solo performer singer/songwriter, got a collection of 300+ songs; mostly trad with around 20 of my own... Cheers Ian


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Shimbo Darktree
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 11:52 AM

Well now, folks, I guess I should hide my head in shame.
As a Tasmanian born and bred, I thought I would see if
I could shed some light on the subject ... and I find I'm
learning, rather than educating. Good on you, folk scholars
one and all. I'll pull my two heads in.
(We Tasmanians supposedly have two heads ... inbreeding
you know.)

Shimbo


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Amos
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 12:13 PM

Damn, Shimbo, you Tasmanian devil -- If I had two heads I could stay on the Cat all day! Use the other one to catch up on sleep. ANyone know a really good geneticist?

A


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 26 Feb 00 - 03:49 AM

G'day Calach / Ian,

I live in Sydney, New South Wales, Australia (you know, the place cringing as our politicians and their apparatchiks teach the rest of the world how to make the Olympic Games really look like a swine-feeding frenzy at the big trough!). I can't see my profile in Quick Links / bbc's Mudcat Resources - Mudcat Profiles yet, so I had better practice a less prolix version:
I have been mostly involved in Australian folk music / 'Bush Music' since the early 1960's and during the latter half of the '60s I worked down in the Tasmanian and the Snowy Mountains Hydro Schemes - as well as a few odd jobs and a none too successful contracting venture. I married a Tasmanian girl in 1970 and we came back to Sydney where I trained as a photographer. I had taken up button accordion in 1963 and seem to have absorbed some Tasmanian styles and habits over my time down there as well as making and playing whistles.

Back in Sydney I was active again with the Bush Music Club, having been Concert Party Leader at various times between 1965 and the present. I played in Bush Bands: The Rouseabouts from ~1974 - 1978, Selectors from ~ 1980 - 1989 and The Backblocks Musicians from 1990 - present. I've been involved with the Club's publishing for 30 years and have variously designed, edited, illustrated and got out tape and (soon) CD compilations.

Portable, improvised and makeshift instruments and there effect in shaping an Australian style are a major interest and I play (and make) [wooden playing] bones, lagerphone, bush (tea chest) bass, home-made whistles as well as mouth organ, Anglo concertina and accordions.

I sing traditionally - unaccompanied and, along with our past traditions, I seem to sing a lot of songs written by people I know ... and the odd Henry Lawson poem set by me or others. When I am playing, it is usually dance music of our colonial era.

I love Tasmania and have a particular interest in "Frank the Poet" a convict who spent some less than happy years there for opposing the British in Ireland. Many of his poems have survived as songs - including the original Wild Colonial Boy, which descends from his poem Jack Donahoe. A friend and I found a 91-year old Tasmanian, a Mr Wilson of Cygnet, who knew a version of The Siezure of the 'Cyprus' Brig, mentioned up in my first posting. We did not collect it but managed to get this one.

I had best sign off before this gets too long. There will probably be a profile in bbc's resources soon (she does depend on her almost-18-year-old son for the technical bits!).

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Calach
Date: 26 Feb 00 - 04:56 AM

Hi Bob, thanks for the story. Seems you've led an interesting life so far and glad that traditional music helped in that way. I was born in Edinburgh and after getting hitched, have spent the last 17 years in the Kingdom of Fife, just over the water. I'm a 40 year old amateur who plays a bit of guitar, flute, bodhran, and sings to some lesser degree. I co-started a folk club in Longside (little village inland from peterhead) then started another one nearer home (Leslie Folk Club) and have been the lynchpin of that club for 3 years. I've just split up from my wife of 18 years, moved back into Edinburgh, and have taken to an internet romance thing with a beautiful woman in Kansas USA (yup 4000 miles away!) She's a folkie too and sings and plays guitar, flute, mandolin. I'm going to see her (not for the first time) in 18 days and we've got a half-hour spot in a club in Kansas City. We've never played together properly before, and it'll be fun. That's the story so far. My email address is calach@fsbdial.co.uk if you wanna keep in touch. Thanks for chatting, see ya mate! Calach


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: GUEST,Curtis & Loretta
Date: 26 Feb 00 - 02:04 PM

It's also mentioned in "Black Velvet Band." The song's main character (and the woman he's fallen in love with) are both sent to Van Dieman's Land for 7 years, for stealing a watch.


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Feb 00 - 02:24 PM

I've had a look at WILD YOUNG IRISH BOY - and I strongly suspect it's intended as in-joke song, for folkies, with the joke lying in recognising the numerous songs that are being plundered, and also in the sheer inordinate length of the song. Just when you think it's finished, it lurches off into another length of saga.

Sung in an exaggeratedly stylised way in a song-circle of people who knew all the old songs, it could be quite fun too. But not many audiences could take it, and not that many singers could carry it off.


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 26 Feb 00 - 09:22 PM

G'day all,

Curtis & Loretta: If you check most versions of Black Velvet Band you will find that the lady is not apprehended. She sets him up ... 'frames him' for her theft.

I have heard some contend that this records a practice, at one point, of authorities trying to get a few tradesmen (the singer, in whatever town is mentioned on that particular broadside, says "... Apprenticed to trade I was bound ...") out to colonies full of the unskilled poor who fell foul of the law.

Since many magistrates and other influential people would have had connections, investments or even proprties in The Colonies, it was to their advantage to provided a pool of skilled artisans. I had a friend in "Rouseabouts" Bush Band, during the 1970s (Ray Grieve, author of the definitive history of the mouthorgan in Australia A Band in a Waistcoat Pocket), who has always maintained his family's claim that their convict anscestor was the victim of just such a subterfuge.

One aspect, stonemasonry and building, had been dealt with when the English transferred the prisoners of the 1798 Irish uprising from Belfast, where they had been set to work building then world's biggest drydock, out to Australia, rather than releasing them as (now) skilled tradsman. This probably explains why the Stonemasons' Union, later in the 19th century, was one of the most progressive and effective, pushing through the 8 hour working day with their campaign sloganned 8 Hours Work - 8 Hours Play - 8 Hours Sleep - 8 Bob a Day. These men carved the old part of Sydney from "The Rocks" that still give their name to that district.

McGrath of Harlow: Your explanation pretty well agrees with my suspicions. Such a confection could only be constructed deliberately by someone with a broad knowledge of the different texts ... and a warped sense of humour. I'm not sure it would be a good thing for me to know who it was!

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 00 - 01:05 AM

Damn! Bob Bolton!! Amazing stuff!! Thanks!

Keep posting, Bob!!


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Callie
Date: 27 Feb 00 - 05:00 PM

Wow! I'm Australian and I didn't know a lot of this stuff! Thank you to you all.

And McGrath: We hve t'spk like ths so as not t'frightn off th'kngaroos (tmd crtures).

Folks may be interested in a tragic update to the Van Diemen's story. Port Arthur is now a museum prison that attracts lots of tourists (you can take ghost tours at night etc). In 1986 a disturbed man went on a killing rampage there and shot about a dozen tourists, rangers and canteen staff. In Australia, Port Arthur is now known as the site of the most horrific and tragic massacre.

--Callie


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 27 Feb 00 - 09:40 PM

G'day Callie,

I think you will find that Martin Bryant's killing spree was rather more recent ... and extensive.

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Callie
Date: 27 Feb 00 - 09:58 PM

Sorry - I meant 1996 - not 86!! A slip of the '8'! How many people actually died Bob? Do you remember?

--Callie


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 28 Feb 00 - 12:50 AM

G'day Callie,

I fear it was in the 30s (~35) and a world record ... but I don't really want to think hard about it. I loved the atmosphere of Port Arthur, when I stayed at the Youth Hostel in 1966 and did some restoration work.

One rainy September (1987?) my wife and I got a private boat trip (there were no other passengers and the operator was kind enough to sail with just us) to the Isle of the Dead - where the soldiers, administrators and settlers lie beneath tombstones ... and the convicts are just buried. The mist and rain washed away the veil of years and so much stood out that the atmosphere was palpable.

Now the ghosts are just too recent.

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 00 - 02:05 AM

Bless you, Bob.


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Callie
Date: 28 Feb 00 - 03:06 AM

I found the Isle of the Dead very very sad. Did you notice that the details on the tombstones were often misspelt, because the convicts were largely illiterate?


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 28 Feb 00 - 03:19 AM

G'day Callie,

I prefer to think that spelling was far less formalised then than now. It was halfway back to the Elizabethan era, when there was no such animal as orthography. I also suspect that many convicts - such as "Frank the Poet", in whom I am greatly interested (and who served time at Port Arthur), were far more literate than many of the soldiers ... and even some of the administrators.

A friend, who worked for the National Parks Authority, told me that the first farm registered in Australia was intended to be called Alpha Farm by its literate owner ... but was registered by the Government clerk as (H ommitted)'Alf a Farm ... Well, the other name was all Greek to him!

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Tom Davis
Date: 28 Feb 00 - 06:41 AM

As Tasmania was named after a Dutch explorer by the name of Tasman, I would guess that Mr Van Dieman was one of his officers, or perhaps the captain of another ship from the same land. Or maybe not. Tom


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 28 Feb 00 - 06:57 AM

Named for Anthony Van Dieman Governor-General of the Dutch East India Company.(According to Britannica Online)
RtS


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 28 Feb 00 - 04:18 PM

G'day Roger and Tom,

If you go up about 36/7 posts, AndyG's link will give you the full spiel on Van Dieman.

The early Dutch explorer aspects of van Diemam's Land/Tasmania have no connection to its later history as a British convict colony and subsequent development as a state of Australia.

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: toadfrog
Date: 07 May 01 - 10:45 PM

Bob Bolton: Thanks! This is social history I have long been curious about. (Now I think about it, I'd been singing "Black Velvet Band" for about 45 years without actually knowing what it was about.) Is there a good history of the Transportations anywhere?

Apparently another destination for Transports was the Cape Colony. I ran into a newspaper article from ca. 1850 stating that the government there had told London that, unless they started sending some women, the Colony would not accept any more convicts.


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 08 May 01 - 12:37 AM

G'day toadfrog,

I don't know where you are, so I can't hazard a guess at what books are currently available in your part of the world. In general, I can't think of a good single book on the transportation of convicts to Australia (or the earlier, and longer transportation to the Americas).

I have a number of specific books to which I refer ... mostly local, and some of them from small private imprints. I have often been frustrated by the lack a good, authoritative history of this aspect of the period. I know a lot of the NSW State records, covering this period, were destroyed in the 1881 (~?) fire in the 1880 Exposition Crystal Palace, which had then been used as a records store. It is often suggested that influential people in the Government wished some old records to go up in smoke!

The best-known book, world wide, on this period and area of settlement would be Robert Hughes The Fatal Shore. There are some who feel he pushes one particular line too far ... and others who reckon he gets it pretty right - but it is a big and expensive book.

I'm not sure about the 1850 date for your "sending some women" - by then transportation to the eastern states had almost ceased ... and would be completely killed by the announcement of gold finds on the Turon River in the next year or two. As well, pioneer social reformers like Caroline Chisholm were bringing out women as settlers to civilise the wild colonies.

This is dealt with well in another book called Damned Wores and God's Police (sorry, I can't think of the author, off-hand). The titles comes from an early remark of a "First Fleet" officer, on hearing that a new fleet would bring more women: "Oh no! More damned whores!" - contrasted to Caroline Chisholm's contention that women were needed as "God's Police" in the colony.

Transportation continued to Western Australia into the 1860s, but was opposed by Australian patriotic groups since the 1830s. The only ones wanting to maintain transportation were the large property owners who wanted cheap labour. If they had discovered gold in the west a bit earlier, it would have all finished then!

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 08 May 01 - 01:07 AM

What about, "Maggie Maggie May, they have taken her away
To walk upon Van Diemen's cruel shore.
She robbed many a sailor and dosed many a whaler
She'll never walk down lime street anymore.

Any of you lot hear "The Girl in the BLUE velvet band"?

Bluegrass version of the same story. , last verse goes

They sentenced me to San Quentin for stealing
God knows I'm an innocent man
and the guilty one knows of my trials
The girl in the blue velvet band.

When the audience sing "The Black Velvet Band" as if it were a happy drinking song, I like to see who takes notice of the serious nature of the song, and sing

Her eyes they were red as the sunset
You'd have thought she was queen of a zoo
and her feet hung off of her ankles
tied up in a black leather shoe.

Thank goodness there are people who's heritage is Italian to sing Irish ballads the way (perhaps) the author intended.

said he with his tongue in his cheek.


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: GUEST,Maureen Cummuskey
Date: 08 May 01 - 01:35 AM

bob, damned whores and god's police was written by anne summers.


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Subject: RE: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land
From: Roo
Date: 08 May 01 - 08:31 AM

Hello toadfrog,

Australia's transportation records as far as I am aware are archived and copies are readily available at libraries and the NSW State Archives (probably of no use to you though, I'm afraid) . Robert Hughes' Fatal Shore is available in paperback at a normal paperback price.

Here's a concise background to the convict system and Tasmania

and The National Archives of Ireland has a good general description of transportation on its site. Well worth reading if you want a good overview.

You might find these convict narratives online interesting:
http://www.lib.latrobe.edu.au/AHR/convict/davis.html

NARRATIVE OF THE ADVENTURES AND SUFFERINGS OF CAPTAIN DANIEL D. HEUSTIS AND HIS COMPANIONS,IN CANADA AND VAN DIEMANS LAND ( full transcript)

SEVEN YEARS OF MY LIFE OR NARRATIVE OF A PATRIOT EXILE WHO TOGETHER WITH EIGHTY-TWO AMERICAN CITIZENS WERE ILLEGALLY TRIED FOR REBELLION IN UPPER CANADA IN 1838, AND TRANSPORTED TO VAN DIEMANS LAND.

EXILES RETURN OR NARRATIVE OF SAMUEL SNOW WHO WAS BANISHED TO VAN DIEMANS LAND, FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE PATRIOT WAR IN UPPER CANADA IN 1838

If you want source material on the subject of transportation, this has some good stuff. If you want any more, email me as I have some good books on transportation and can give you the details.


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Subject: RE: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land
From: Big Tim
Date: 08 May 01 - 09:26 AM

For a good account of transportation and Irish exile generally see "The Great Shame: a story of the Irish in the old world and the new" by Thomas Keneally (of "Schindler's List/Ark" fame). Chatto & Windus, London, 1998. This is a great and very readable piece of work.


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Subject: RE: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land
From: GUEST,John Gray/Australia
Date: 08 May 01 - 12:28 PM

Another very good book on the subject is Convicts and the Colonies by A.G.L. Shaw. Shaw was Professor of History at a couple of Australian universities. First published 1977.

JG / F.M.E.


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Subject: RE: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land
From: toadfrog
Date: 08 May 01 - 09:47 PM

Thanks for all the help! I had not expected such a swift & thorough responses!

Yes, I am real sure that I saw that newspaper article, although it was written for a Berlin newspaper by one of the guys I studied for my dissertation. The year is correct, but you are undoubtly right in saying it described a moribund institution.


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Subject: RE: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land
From: GUEST,Chris
Date: 09 May 01 - 09:51 AM

Hi Bob, re your expressed interest in 'Frank the Poet',I've recently read 'Exiles from Erin'(Convict lives in Ireland and Australia),edited by Bob Reece of Murdoch Uni.WA. It has an interesting chapter on 'Frank the Poet'. According to this its not clear from the available sources whereabouts in Ireland he hailed from, but he may have been from Co Clare and a relative of Donncadh Rua Mac Conmara the Irish poet. Have you anything on this ?


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Subject: RE: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land
From: GUEST,Just looking
Date: 12 Nov 05 - 09:11 AM

Does anyone have any information regarding Americans & Canadians sent to Van Diemans Land as prisoners of the British in the 1820's?


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Subject: RE: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land
From: GUEST,Just looking
Date: 12 Nov 05 - 09:25 AM

Actually I think it was the late 1830's to the early 1840's.


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Subject: RE: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land
From: John Routledge
Date: 12 Nov 05 - 09:44 AM

What a cracking thread. Have been promising myself to learn a version of Van Dieman's land for many months. NOW I will.


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Subject: RE: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 12 Nov 05 - 12:30 PM

These lyrics were written last year and are sung using a trad tune..."Both sides the Tweed" Best wishes, Mike.

The water is deep and so wide,
I fear that I cannot cross o'er.
Nor have I the wings I might fly,
To be with my true love once more.
For Willie lives over the sea,
In the land of Van Diemen they say.
And I never will see my true love,
Until my dying day.

Found guilty they took him away,
On His Majestys ship the good "Sire".
Although he is so far from me,
Twill not kill this loves inner fire.
I'll go to that Van Diemens Land,
To find the true love I adore.
But I need of a handsome boatman,
To row me to that distant shore.

My true love shall see me again,
For there will I go to his side.
I will gather him close to my breast,
He will take me to be his own bride.
Though Van Diemens Land may be far,
As there it is so will I be.
I'll hold my true love again,
And he in his turn shall hold me.

Lyrics, Mike Hill (August 2004)
Tune, trad (Both Sides the Tweed)


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Subject: RE: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land
From: Celtaddict
Date: 12 Nov 05 - 02:22 PM

There is an old book I ran across in haunting used bookstores, by a man writing as "Ralph Rashleigh" (thought likely a pen name) telling of his life in petty crime in London, his way through the courts, transportation, convict life, escape, time as bush ranger, ultimately redeemed life; while the name is probably fake and many of the exploits are quite melodramatic, and it seems unlikely all the described events happened to one person, some of the details ring quite true. Unfortunately I loaned the book to a friend and have yet to have it returned. (And I know better; this friend has had a long-out-of-print songbook for nigh on 20 years; I keep saying, please let me borrow it back to copy out the songs I want and I will gladly GIVE you the book.)


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Subject: RE: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land
From: Helen
Date: 12 Nov 05 - 04:16 PM

Hi Celtaddict,

I discovered this website the other day for secondhand books in Oz, UK etc.

James Tucker: Ralph Rashleigh

Just look for prices in your range and location.

I don't know where you are, but you could also try the Barnes and Noble or Amazon secondhand book searches. I have ordered books & CD's through the secondhand places and so far it has been prompt and reliable. Although I can't say on the Books & Collectibles site because I have just ordered something and I'm waiting for it to be delivered.

I did start reading Ralph Rashleigh when I was studying Oz Lit about 3 decades ago, I never did finish it, mainly because I had to read so many books at one time that it wasn't a good way to "get into" any one book.

Also, I don't lend books any more unless I really trust the person to give it back. It is so easy now with databases to find them secondhand or through the library. If I really want to lend one to someone I buy a cheap copy secondhand, and lend them that.

You may be able to find the other book you want that way too.

Helen


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Subject: RE: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land
From: paddymac
Date: 12 Nov 05 - 07:40 PM

Date: 23 Feb 00 - 05:53 AM Hi! Does anyone know the relation between Ireland and Van Diemen's land??? Need it for my Cert. (very quick), hope that anyone can help me!? Thanx Chris

and

Date: 23 Feb 00 - 02:20 PM Thank you all very much!!!!!!! You have no idea how much you helped me! Thanx! :-)
**
I have greatly enjoyed rereading this thread, but it got me to wondering whether "Chris" has come back around the place. By now he's probably through with university, if that was his path. If you happen by, Chris, how aboiut a brief update on how the world has treated you thus far.


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Subject: RE: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 09:40 PM

apropos of nothing -

When my Dad was small, he thought Van Dieman's land was " Bandyman's land" or "Banditman's Land" And when he sang that verse of Black velvet Band that goes 'You're going ta Van Dieman's land" he always thought it said: 'You're going ta BanditMan's Land"


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Subject: RE: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 11:24 PM

In answer to "Just Looking's" question, it appears that a total of 154 Canadians were transported to Australia following their involvement in the political uprisings in Upper Canada (now Ontario) and Lower Canada (now Quebec) in 1837-38. Most returned to Canada after serving their sentences.

Canada in Australia.

I have no idea if any Americans were ever transported to Australia. Perhaps some of those who were involved in America's failed attempts to invade Canada wound up there. Bob Bolton might know.


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Subject: In praise of Ralph Rashleigh
From: Joybell
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 11:39 PM

Re Ralph Rashleigh. Helen - so I'm not the only one who's come across this wonderful book. It won't help in the current discussion but I just have to say it's a liitle gem. Written by a convict and not by someone after the event. It's an exagerated biography but the details about life in Sydney, seen from a convict's point of view, are acurate. I learned about the early Convict Theaters from this book. Well written by a very young man transported at the age of 17. I think it's unique of its type. Cheers, Joy


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Subject: RE: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land
From: GUEST,caitlynJ
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 11:47 PM

who was the criminals that were banished to van diemans land in the old ages.


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Subject: RE: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:50 AM

Any crime not serious enough for a hanging. Thieves, prostitutes and drunken hooligans.

I rather liked the response of one British comedian who was asked by some Aussie smartarse on his arrival there "does it bother you that most Australians are descended from convicts?" - he replied, "no, the ones that worry me are those whose ancestors were prison wardens".


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Subject: Lyr Add: BOTANY BAY
From: olddude
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:04 PM

Oh I'm on my way down to the quay
Where a big ship now does lie
For to take a gang of navvies
I was told to engage
But I thought I would call in for a while
Before I went away
For to take a trip in an emigrant ship
To the shores of Botany Bay

Chorus:
Farewell to your bricks and mortar
Farewell to your dirty lime
Farewell to your gangway and gang planks
And to hell with your overtime
For the good ship Ragamuffin
She is lying at the quay
For to take old Pat with a shovel on his back
To the shores of Botany Bay

The best years of our life we spend
At working on the docks
Building mighty wharves and quays
Of earth and ballast rocks
Our pensions keep our lives secure
But I'll not rue the day
When I take a trip on an emigrant ship
To the shores of Botany Bay

For the boss came up this morning
And he said "Well Pat hello
If you do not mix that mortar fast
Be sure you'll have to go"
Of course he did insult me
I demanded of my pay
And I told him straight I was going to emigrate
To the shores of Botany Bay

And when I reach Australia
I'll go and look for gold
Sure there's plenty there for the digging
Or so I have been told
Or I might go back into my trade
Eight hundred bricks I'll lay
In an eight hour day for eight bob pay
On the shores of Botany Bay


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Subject: RE: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:36 PM

For which, see also these threads from 1999:

Shores of Botany Bay
Botany bay & Don't come again


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