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Help: relation between Ireland & Van Diemen's Land

DigiTrad:
VAN DIEMAN'S LAND
VAN DIEMANS LAND (YOUNG MEN BEWARE)


Related threads:
Folklore: Van Diemen's Land (47)
Lyr Add: Van Diemen's Land (29)
Van Diemen (not Van Dieman) (15)
Tune Req: Van Diemen's Land (from U2) (8)
Van Diemen's Land (Revisited) (1)


GUEST,ChrisE 23 Feb 00 - 05:53 AM
alison 23 Feb 00 - 06:03 AM
GUEST, Bob Bolton('s home computer) 23 Feb 00 - 06:05 AM
jofield 23 Feb 00 - 09:00 AM
Amos 23 Feb 00 - 09:06 AM
wysiwyg 23 Feb 00 - 10:33 AM
Molly Malone 23 Feb 00 - 10:59 AM
MMario 23 Feb 00 - 11:02 AM
Amos 23 Feb 00 - 11:03 AM
Willie-O 23 Feb 00 - 11:08 AM
paddymac 23 Feb 00 - 11:11 AM
AndyG 23 Feb 00 - 11:27 AM
Amos 23 Feb 00 - 11:42 AM
wysiwyg 23 Feb 00 - 11:54 AM
annamill 23 Feb 00 - 12:39 PM
wysiwyg 23 Feb 00 - 01:48 PM
GUEST,ChrisE 23 Feb 00 - 02:20 PM
wysiwyg 23 Feb 00 - 02:21 PM
Amos 23 Feb 00 - 02:24 PM
Bob Bolton 23 Feb 00 - 04:48 PM
GUEST,art 23 Feb 00 - 05:04 PM
wysiwyg 23 Feb 00 - 10:02 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Feb 00 - 02:00 PM
GUEST,Annraoi 24 Feb 00 - 02:52 PM
Bert 24 Feb 00 - 03:14 PM
Calach 24 Feb 00 - 05:12 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Feb 00 - 05:32 PM
Bob Bolton 24 Feb 00 - 05:37 PM
Amos 24 Feb 00 - 06:58 PM
Calach 25 Feb 00 - 01:42 AM
Bob Bolton 25 Feb 00 - 07:06 AM
Calach 25 Feb 00 - 09:13 AM
Shimbo Darktree 25 Feb 00 - 11:52 AM
Amos 25 Feb 00 - 12:13 PM
Bob Bolton 26 Feb 00 - 03:49 AM
Calach 26 Feb 00 - 04:56 AM
GUEST,Curtis & Loretta 26 Feb 00 - 02:04 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Feb 00 - 02:24 PM
Bob Bolton 26 Feb 00 - 09:22 PM
GUEST 27 Feb 00 - 01:05 AM
Callie 27 Feb 00 - 05:00 PM
Bob Bolton 27 Feb 00 - 09:40 PM
Callie 27 Feb 00 - 09:58 PM
Bob Bolton 28 Feb 00 - 12:50 AM
GUEST 28 Feb 00 - 02:05 AM
Callie 28 Feb 00 - 03:06 AM
Bob Bolton 28 Feb 00 - 03:19 AM
Tom Davis 28 Feb 00 - 06:41 AM
GUEST,Roger the skiffler 28 Feb 00 - 06:57 AM
Bob Bolton 28 Feb 00 - 04:18 PM
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Subject: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land
From: GUEST,ChrisE
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 05:53 AM

Hi! Does anyone know the relation between Ireland and Van Diemen's land??? Need it for my Cert. (very quick), hope that anyone can help me!? Thanx Chris


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: alison
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 06:03 AM

Van Diemen's Land.. is Australia (possibly Tasmania)..... Irish (and English criminals)were transported here as punishment for their crimes.

If you need a song mentioning it.. look up "Back home in Derry" in the database...

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: GUEST, Bob Bolton('s home computer)
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 06:05 AM

G'day ChrisE,

Van Dieman's Land, now Tasmania, was the furthest place Britain could send her most undesirable convicts. Botany Bay, the first settlement, these days a suburb of Sydney, New South Wales, was first sentence. Tasmania was for worse (more anti-British) types or second offenders.

A lot of Irish were recalcitant enough to spend a lot of time in Tasmania. 'Frank the Poet' - Francis MacNamara, a member of a Protestant anti-British "secret society" was sentenced to (?) 7 years originally and served 17 years with extra sentences. He was last recorded leaving Tasmania with some pungent verse on the subject.

When I first went to Cygnet, south of Hobart, in 1966 the population was 90% of (some degree of) Irish descent (compared to 40% for Australia generally). There I found traces of one of Franks poems from the 1830s, still remembered as a song - celebrating the escape from second (third?) sentence to the hell hole of Macquarie Harbour of several (mostly Irish convicts who seized the brig "Cyprus" when the soldier's guard was down and sailed away, hoping to reach Japan and freedom.

I hope some of this helps. Look for "Cyprus Brig" in the DT.

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: jofield
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 09:00 AM

Many years ago, a friend of mine used to sing a song about the convicts which contained the lyrics --

"They'll hook ya to the plow, me boys,
To plow Van Diemen's Land."

Anyone know where this comes from?

James.


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Amos
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 09:06 AM

From "Female Transport" (See DT):

Tt hurt me heart when in the coach me native town passed by
To see so many I did know it fairly made me cry
Then to the ship I went with speed along with many more
Whose aching hearts did grieve to go all on Van Dieman's shore.

They chained us two by two and whipped and lashed us all along
They cut off our provisions if we did the least thing wrong
They march us in the burning sun until our feet are sore
So hard our lot now we have got all on Van Dieman's shore.

That pretty well sums up what it was...

We labor hard from morn til night until our bones do ache Then everyone we must obey our mouldy beds to make. We often wish when we lie down that we might rise no more To face our savage Governors all on Van Dieman's shore.


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 10:33 AM

Who was Van Dieman then?


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Molly Malone
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 10:59 AM

Also, the "7 years transportation" that you will see in songs refers to the trip to Van Dieman's Land. A lot of people didn't even survive the trip.


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: MMario
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 11:02 AM

the goals were so crowded that transportees were kept in hulks anchored in the Thames, often for months, before being shipped out. Many didn't survive long enough to set sail.


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Amos
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 11:03 AM

Crowded goals is still a problem even today! Ask any yuppie...


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Willie-O
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 11:08 AM

Ask any hockey ref.

W-O


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: paddymac
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 11:11 AM

Although the Oxford Companion to Irish History is "usually" a helpful place to start looking, I was suprised to find that it does not have an entry on Van Diemen's Land. A glaring ommission. However, the entry on "transportation" reports that transportation to Van Diemen's Land occurred between 1803 and 1868 when transportation was abolished.


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: AndyG
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 11:27 AM

Praise,
Follow this link to find out who Van Diemen (note spelling) was.

AndyG


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Amos
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 11:42 AM

And stop yelling!


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 11:54 AM

AndyG,

Thanks, looks like a great resource, bound to help the thread originator A LOT!


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: annamill
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 12:39 PM

I love this place. We're learning again! Thank goodness!

Love, annap


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 01:48 PM

ChrisE,

Are ye gettin' this?


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: GUEST,ChrisE
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 02:20 PM

Thank you all very much!!!!!!! You have no idea how much you helped me! Thanx! :-)


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 02:21 PM

Come again! Rah certs!


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Amos
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 02:24 PM

Are you cheering for breath mints now, Praise?


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 04:48 PM

G'day Again ChrisE,

It occurred to me after posting last night (Sydney Time) that I may have overstated the case in respect of Tasmania as a 'second sentence' site. Once the settlement built up (founded in 1805) and civilised, convicts were sent there as first destination. Port Arthur even had a special separated prison at Point Puer for juvenile offenders.

Port Arthur also received Irish fenians with a bit higher profile than normal. Smith O'Brien was an Irish Member of Parliament convicted of treason. At Port Arthur, after he signed a parole, guaranteeing not to escape, he was housed in a small separate cottage. During the 1960s I did some restoration work on Smith O'Briens Cottage, which was then being used as the Youth Hostel at Port Arthur. It was up the hill, behind the Women's Prison, next to the Lunatic Asylum - later used as the Town Hall!
Smith O'Brien was contacted by the Irish/American group that financed the American Whaler The Catalpa to rescue Fenians sent to Australia. He explained that he had given his word of honour not to escape - and they carried on to rescue the 7 fenians in Western Australia - look up The Catalpa in the DT.

jofield: The lines are more like -

"They'll yoke you to the plough, my boys,
To plough Van Diemen's Land."

These lines come from the English broadside ballad usually called Van Dieman's Land

This song was proabably of the class of broadsides quietly encouraged by the Government to depict life in the convict settlements as babdly as possible - to counter rumours filtering back to Britain of convicts that served their time and then did well in the new country.

Many of the London poor (including hordes of dispossesed Irish: economic refugees /those evicted by the 'land clearances' of British landlords wishing to run sheep and cattle for the London market / rural labourers left unemployed by changes to broad acre land use / (later) those starved out by the Potato Famine, started to think it might be a good idea to steal something ... and eat that day ... or else get caught and end up in Australia (including V.D.L.) and prosper as they could not in England!

Another example of this class of reverse propaganda broadside is The Convict Maid (should be in DT) - a song that Trish Noakes, in my band of the 1980s Selectors, used to sing as a bit of a weepy. It obviously didn't work on her - she and her husband moved to Tasmania in the early '90s!

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: GUEST,art
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 05:04 PM

as an addendum so many convicts were sent to australia from east anglia (norfolk and suffolk) due to the majistrates owning land in australia.if you compare the modern australian accent with that of east anglia there is an amazing similarity.


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 10:02 PM

Amos,

No, silly, I'm braising them!


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 02:00 PM

Can't say 'Strine seems much like Norfolk to me. There's a lot of London in it, and Essex/Kent. The original Estuary English.

I suspect the main source of 'Strine people is having to talk with their lips closed to keep out the flies and the dust.


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 02:52 PM

Guest, Chriss, Did the Newry revolutionary John Mitchel not spend some time in Van Diemen's Land for his activities in Ireland ? You might care to look up references for the song "John Mitchell" which might give some further lines for your cert. Annraoi


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Bert
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 03:14 PM

I thought that there were several distinct East Anglian accents. Essex, Cambridge, Suffolk, Norfolk etc.. As many if not more than there are counties. And the fishing ports would probably be somewhat different as well.


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Subject: Lyr Add: VAN DIEMEN'S LAND
From: Calach
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 05:12 PM

Van Diemen's Land Lyrics as follows:
(To the tune; THE STAR OF THE COUNTY DOWN)

VAN DIEMEN'S LAND

Come on ye gallant poachers that ramble void o' care
That waltz out on a moonlit night with dog and gun and snare
The harmless hare and pheasant, boys, ye have at your command
Never thinking that you'll be transported to Van Diemen's Land

For fourteen years and longer, I've been a poacher bold
I was aye stout and sturdy and I never felt the cold
One night I went to Ben-a-Bhuird, my gun into my hand
And the last thing on my mind was sailing to Van Diemen's Land

But waiting for to capture me, six keepers in a row
They've caught me and they've tied me, my luck to overthrow
They marched me off to Aberdeen, my trial for to stand
And the next day I am on a ship bound for Van Diemen's Land

'Twas in the month of April we were landed on the shore
The jailers came around us, full half a score or more
They drew us up like horses, and marched us off the sand
And yoked us to the ploughs, me boys, to plough Van Diemen's Land.

The houses that we dwell in here are made of clod and clay
With rotten straw for bedding to end our working day
Around our camps are blazing fires, we slumber when we can
And we fight the wolves and tigers here, upon Van Diemen's Land

Sometimes when I do slumber, I have a pleasant dream
That my true love was along wi' me doon by yon purlin' stream
In Scotland I am walking with her, walking hand in hand
But I wake up broken hearted, here in Van Diemen's Land

Here's a hearty health to all my friends that poacher are by name
Here's a toast unto the poacher lad when in pursuit of game
May they aye be at their liberty, not taken out of hand
Lest they be transported here unto Van Diemen's Land

Here's a health unto my native land as I look out from the shore
And to the bonnie braes o' Mar, for those I'll see no more
Fareweel unto the bonnie lass who'll never understand
Why I was roughly taken from her to Van Diemen's Land


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 05:32 PM

I reckon there's as many accents in East Anglia as there are parishes. I think in the old days that's how they used to amuse themselves in the dark winter nights, in between the songs. Like in Newfoundland where it's said no two parishes have the same accent.

Not that Essex is in East Anglia. Saxons, not Angles. (Though up in Norfolk they're really Danes, when they aren't Dutch.)


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 05:37 PM

G'day Calach,

That is quite a good Scottish Van Dieman's Land. the version in the DT marked Van Dieman's Land (Young Men Beware) is a pretty fair version of the English (probably original - see my posting above) version.

The one simply marked Van Dieman's Land and then headed Wild Young Irish Boy. is an incredible mélange of: Wild Colonial Boy, Van Dieman's Land, Henry Lawson's Trooper Campbell and Captain Starlight ... and God knows what. It even has a verse starting "Now, one morning in the merry month of May ...! I wish I knew more of its provenance - maybe to hunt down the author and put him out of his misery.

Regard(les)s,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Amos
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 06:58 PM

Heart, be still -- a Folkie Hunter! H'ain't seen one o'them in these wood for nigh on twenty years. Big'un, too! Looks kinda mean...hmmmm...big gun...what to do? Guess I'll jes' go hide in that bush over there 'n' be real still an' make a noise like a bodhran...


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Calach
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 01:42 AM

To BOB BOLTON Hi Bob, got those lyrics from an old folk anthology book in Kirkcaldy (Fife) Library. There were 17 versions of the song, so I took the best verses from all of them, put them in some sort of order and made the above version. Hope you don't mind my approach. Ian


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 07:06 AM

G'day Calach,

I don't hold any version to be from the hand of God. Quite a lot od singers - and book editors - would do the same if they did not have a single coherent version they liked. In the context of performance that is only an acceleration of the 'folk process'.

I reckon the result looks fairly consistent and, if you can identify with it, you will probably do a good job. Perhaps it would be nice to make the reworking clear in a scholarly setting ... but probably not when you are on stage.

My real worry was about the different song, headed Wild Young Irish Boy in the Digital Tradition. This has borrowings from at least six traditional sources that I can recognize, no coherence, scores of inconsistencies and anachronisms, is one and a half times longer than any modern audience will sit through and isn't much of a song!

(Oh, BTW: I don't like it.)

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Calach
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 09:13 AM

Where you from Bob, and what do you do folk-wise? I'm in Edinburgh, solo performer singer/songwriter, got a collection of 300+ songs; mostly trad with around 20 of my own... Cheers Ian


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Shimbo Darktree
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 11:52 AM

Well now, folks, I guess I should hide my head in shame.
As a Tasmanian born and bred, I thought I would see if
I could shed some light on the subject ... and I find I'm
learning, rather than educating. Good on you, folk scholars
one and all. I'll pull my two heads in.
(We Tasmanians supposedly have two heads ... inbreeding
you know.)

Shimbo


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Amos
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 12:13 PM

Damn, Shimbo, you Tasmanian devil -- If I had two heads I could stay on the Cat all day! Use the other one to catch up on sleep. ANyone know a really good geneticist?

A


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 26 Feb 00 - 03:49 AM

G'day Calach / Ian,

I live in Sydney, New South Wales, Australia (you know, the place cringing as our politicians and their apparatchiks teach the rest of the world how to make the Olympic Games really look like a swine-feeding frenzy at the big trough!). I can't see my profile in Quick Links / bbc's Mudcat Resources - Mudcat Profiles yet, so I had better practice a less prolix version:
I have been mostly involved in Australian folk music / 'Bush Music' since the early 1960's and during the latter half of the '60s I worked down in the Tasmanian and the Snowy Mountains Hydro Schemes - as well as a few odd jobs and a none too successful contracting venture. I married a Tasmanian girl in 1970 and we came back to Sydney where I trained as a photographer. I had taken up button accordion in 1963 and seem to have absorbed some Tasmanian styles and habits over my time down there as well as making and playing whistles.

Back in Sydney I was active again with the Bush Music Club, having been Concert Party Leader at various times between 1965 and the present. I played in Bush Bands: The Rouseabouts from ~1974 - 1978, Selectors from ~ 1980 - 1989 and The Backblocks Musicians from 1990 - present. I've been involved with the Club's publishing for 30 years and have variously designed, edited, illustrated and got out tape and (soon) CD compilations.

Portable, improvised and makeshift instruments and there effect in shaping an Australian style are a major interest and I play (and make) [wooden playing] bones, lagerphone, bush (tea chest) bass, home-made whistles as well as mouth organ, Anglo concertina and accordions.

I sing traditionally - unaccompanied and, along with our past traditions, I seem to sing a lot of songs written by people I know ... and the odd Henry Lawson poem set by me or others. When I am playing, it is usually dance music of our colonial era.

I love Tasmania and have a particular interest in "Frank the Poet" a convict who spent some less than happy years there for opposing the British in Ireland. Many of his poems have survived as songs - including the original Wild Colonial Boy, which descends from his poem Jack Donahoe. A friend and I found a 91-year old Tasmanian, a Mr Wilson of Cygnet, who knew a version of The Siezure of the 'Cyprus' Brig, mentioned up in my first posting. We did not collect it but managed to get this one.

I had best sign off before this gets too long. There will probably be a profile in bbc's resources soon (she does depend on her almost-18-year-old son for the technical bits!).

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Calach
Date: 26 Feb 00 - 04:56 AM

Hi Bob, thanks for the story. Seems you've led an interesting life so far and glad that traditional music helped in that way. I was born in Edinburgh and after getting hitched, have spent the last 17 years in the Kingdom of Fife, just over the water. I'm a 40 year old amateur who plays a bit of guitar, flute, bodhran, and sings to some lesser degree. I co-started a folk club in Longside (little village inland from peterhead) then started another one nearer home (Leslie Folk Club) and have been the lynchpin of that club for 3 years. I've just split up from my wife of 18 years, moved back into Edinburgh, and have taken to an internet romance thing with a beautiful woman in Kansas USA (yup 4000 miles away!) She's a folkie too and sings and plays guitar, flute, mandolin. I'm going to see her (not for the first time) in 18 days and we've got a half-hour spot in a club in Kansas City. We've never played together properly before, and it'll be fun. That's the story so far. My email address is calach@fsbdial.co.uk if you wanna keep in touch. Thanks for chatting, see ya mate! Calach


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: GUEST,Curtis & Loretta
Date: 26 Feb 00 - 02:04 PM

It's also mentioned in "Black Velvet Band." The song's main character (and the woman he's fallen in love with) are both sent to Van Dieman's Land for 7 years, for stealing a watch.


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Feb 00 - 02:24 PM

I've had a look at WILD YOUNG IRISH BOY - and I strongly suspect it's intended as in-joke song, for folkies, with the joke lying in recognising the numerous songs that are being plundered, and also in the sheer inordinate length of the song. Just when you think it's finished, it lurches off into another length of saga.

Sung in an exaggeratedly stylised way in a song-circle of people who knew all the old songs, it could be quite fun too. But not many audiences could take it, and not that many singers could carry it off.


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 26 Feb 00 - 09:22 PM

G'day all,

Curtis & Loretta: If you check most versions of Black Velvet Band you will find that the lady is not apprehended. She sets him up ... 'frames him' for her theft.

I have heard some contend that this records a practice, at one point, of authorities trying to get a few tradesmen (the singer, in whatever town is mentioned on that particular broadside, says "... Apprenticed to trade I was bound ...") out to colonies full of the unskilled poor who fell foul of the law.

Since many magistrates and other influential people would have had connections, investments or even proprties in The Colonies, it was to their advantage to provided a pool of skilled artisans. I had a friend in "Rouseabouts" Bush Band, during the 1970s (Ray Grieve, author of the definitive history of the mouthorgan in Australia A Band in a Waistcoat Pocket), who has always maintained his family's claim that their convict anscestor was the victim of just such a subterfuge.

One aspect, stonemasonry and building, had been dealt with when the English transferred the prisoners of the 1798 Irish uprising from Belfast, where they had been set to work building then world's biggest drydock, out to Australia, rather than releasing them as (now) skilled tradsman. This probably explains why the Stonemasons' Union, later in the 19th century, was one of the most progressive and effective, pushing through the 8 hour working day with their campaign sloganned 8 Hours Work - 8 Hours Play - 8 Hours Sleep - 8 Bob a Day. These men carved the old part of Sydney from "The Rocks" that still give their name to that district.

McGrath of Harlow: Your explanation pretty well agrees with my suspicions. Such a confection could only be constructed deliberately by someone with a broad knowledge of the different texts ... and a warped sense of humour. I'm not sure it would be a good thing for me to know who it was!

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 00 - 01:05 AM

Damn! Bob Bolton!! Amazing stuff!! Thanks!

Keep posting, Bob!!


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Callie
Date: 27 Feb 00 - 05:00 PM

Wow! I'm Australian and I didn't know a lot of this stuff! Thank you to you all.

And McGrath: We hve t'spk like ths so as not t'frightn off th'kngaroos (tmd crtures).

Folks may be interested in a tragic update to the Van Diemen's story. Port Arthur is now a museum prison that attracts lots of tourists (you can take ghost tours at night etc). In 1986 a disturbed man went on a killing rampage there and shot about a dozen tourists, rangers and canteen staff. In Australia, Port Arthur is now known as the site of the most horrific and tragic massacre.

--Callie


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 27 Feb 00 - 09:40 PM

G'day Callie,

I think you will find that Martin Bryant's killing spree was rather more recent ... and extensive.

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Callie
Date: 27 Feb 00 - 09:58 PM

Sorry - I meant 1996 - not 86!! A slip of the '8'! How many people actually died Bob? Do you remember?

--Callie


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 28 Feb 00 - 12:50 AM

G'day Callie,

I fear it was in the 30s (~35) and a world record ... but I don't really want to think hard about it. I loved the atmosphere of Port Arthur, when I stayed at the Youth Hostel in 1966 and did some restoration work.

One rainy September (1987?) my wife and I got a private boat trip (there were no other passengers and the operator was kind enough to sail with just us) to the Isle of the Dead - where the soldiers, administrators and settlers lie beneath tombstones ... and the convicts are just buried. The mist and rain washed away the veil of years and so much stood out that the atmosphere was palpable.

Now the ghosts are just too recent.

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 00 - 02:05 AM

Bless you, Bob.


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Callie
Date: 28 Feb 00 - 03:06 AM

I found the Isle of the Dead very very sad. Did you notice that the details on the tombstones were often misspelt, because the convicts were largely illiterate?


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 28 Feb 00 - 03:19 AM

G'day Callie,

I prefer to think that spelling was far less formalised then than now. It was halfway back to the Elizabethan era, when there was no such animal as orthography. I also suspect that many convicts - such as "Frank the Poet", in whom I am greatly interested (and who served time at Port Arthur), were far more literate than many of the soldiers ... and even some of the administrators.

A friend, who worked for the National Parks Authority, told me that the first farm registered in Australia was intended to be called Alpha Farm by its literate owner ... but was registered by the Government clerk as (H ommitted)'Alf a Farm ... Well, the other name was all Greek to him!

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Tom Davis
Date: 28 Feb 00 - 06:41 AM

As Tasmania was named after a Dutch explorer by the name of Tasman, I would guess that Mr Van Dieman was one of his officers, or perhaps the captain of another ship from the same land. Or maybe not. Tom


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 28 Feb 00 - 06:57 AM

Named for Anthony Van Dieman Governor-General of the Dutch East India Company.(According to Britannica Online)
RtS


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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 28 Feb 00 - 04:18 PM

G'day Roger and Tom,

If you go up about 36/7 posts, AndyG's link will give you the full spiel on Van Dieman.

The early Dutch explorer aspects of van Diemam's Land/Tasmania have no connection to its later history as a British convict colony and subsequent development as a state of Australia.

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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