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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan From: toadfrog Date: 07 May 01 - 10:45 PM Bob Bolton: Thanks! This is social history I have long been curious about. (Now I think about it, I'd been singing "Black Velvet Band" for about 45 years without actually knowing what it was about.) Is there a good history of the Transportations anywhere? Apparently another destination for Transports was the Cape Colony. I ran into a newspaper article from ca. 1850 stating that the government there had told London that, unless they started sending some women, the Colony would not accept any more convicts. |
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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan From: Bob Bolton Date: 08 May 01 - 12:37 AM G'day toadfrog, I don't know where you are, so I can't hazard a guess at what books are currently available in your part of the world. In general, I can't think of a good single book on the transportation of convicts to Australia (or the earlier, and longer transportation to the Americas). I have a number of specific books to which I refer ... mostly local, and some of them from small private imprints. I have often been frustrated by the lack a good, authoritative history of this aspect of the period. I know a lot of the NSW State records, covering this period, were destroyed in the 1881 (~?) fire in the 1880 Exposition Crystal Palace, which had then been used as a records store. It is often suggested that influential people in the Government wished some old records to go up in smoke! The best-known book, world wide, on this period and area of settlement would be Robert Hughes The Fatal Shore. There are some who feel he pushes one particular line too far ... and others who reckon he gets it pretty right - but it is a big and expensive book. I'm not sure about the 1850 date for your "sending some women" - by then transportation to the eastern states had almost ceased ... and would be completely killed by the announcement of gold finds on the Turon River in the next year or two. As well, pioneer social reformers like Caroline Chisholm were bringing out women as settlers to civilise the wild colonies. This is dealt with well in another book called Damned Wores and God's Police (sorry, I can't think of the author, off-hand). The titles comes from an early remark of a "First Fleet" officer, on hearing that a new fleet would bring more women: "Oh no! More damned whores!" - contrasted to Caroline Chisholm's contention that women were needed as "God's Police" in the colony. Transportation continued to Western Australia into the 1860s, but was opposed by Australian patriotic groups since the 1830s. The only ones wanting to maintain transportation were the large property owners who wanted cheap labour. If they had discovered gold in the west a bit earlier, it would have all finished then! Regards, Bob Bolton |
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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan From: CRANKY YANKEE Date: 08 May 01 - 01:07 AM What about, "Maggie Maggie May, they have taken her away To walk upon Van Diemen's cruel shore. She robbed many a sailor and dosed many a whaler She'll never walk down lime street anymore. Any of you lot hear "The Girl in the BLUE velvet band"? Bluegrass version of the same story. , last verse goes They sentenced me to San Quentin for stealing God knows I'm an innocent man and the guilty one knows of my trials The girl in the blue velvet band. When the audience sing "The Black Velvet Band" as if it were a happy drinking song, I like to see who takes notice of the serious nature of the song, and sing Her eyes they were red as the sunset You'd have thought she was queen of a zoo and her feet hung off of her ankles tied up in a black leather shoe. Thank goodness there are people who's heritage is Italian to sing Irish ballads the way (perhaps) the author intended. said he with his tongue in his cheek. |
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Subject: RE: Help: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Lan From: GUEST,Maureen Cummuskey Date: 08 May 01 - 01:35 AM bob, damned whores and god's police was written by anne summers. |
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Subject: RE: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land From: Roo Date: 08 May 01 - 08:31 AM Hello toadfrog, Australia's transportation records as far as I am aware are archived and copies are readily available at libraries and the NSW State Archives (probably of no use to you though, I'm afraid) . Robert Hughes' Fatal Shore is available in paperback at a normal paperback price. Here's a concise background to the convict system and Tasmania and The National Archives of Ireland has a good general description of transportation on its site. Well worth reading if you want a good overview.
You might find these convict narratives online interesting: NARRATIVE OF THE ADVENTURES AND SUFFERINGS OF CAPTAIN DANIEL D. HEUSTIS AND HIS COMPANIONS,IN CANADA AND VAN DIEMANS LAND ( full transcript)
SEVEN YEARS OF MY LIFE OR NARRATIVE OF A PATRIOT EXILE WHO TOGETHER WITH EIGHTY-TWO AMERICAN CITIZENS WERE ILLEGALLY TRIED FOR REBELLION IN UPPER CANADA IN 1838, AND TRANSPORTED TO VAN DIEMANS LAND. EXILES RETURN OR NARRATIVE OF SAMUEL SNOW WHO WAS BANISHED TO VAN DIEMANS LAND, FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE PATRIOT WAR IN UPPER CANADA IN 1838
If you want source material on the subject of transportation, this has some good stuff. If you want any more, email me as I have some good books on transportation and can give you the details.
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Subject: RE: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land From: Big Tim Date: 08 May 01 - 09:26 AM For a good account of transportation and Irish exile generally see "The Great Shame: a story of the Irish in the old world and the new" by Thomas Keneally (of "Schindler's List/Ark" fame). Chatto & Windus, London, 1998. This is a great and very readable piece of work. |
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Subject: RE: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land From: GUEST,John Gray/Australia Date: 08 May 01 - 12:28 PM Another very good book on the subject is Convicts and the Colonies by A.G.L. Shaw. Shaw was Professor of History at a couple of Australian universities. First published 1977. JG / F.M.E. |
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Subject: RE: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land From: toadfrog Date: 08 May 01 - 09:47 PM Thanks for all the help! I had not expected such a swift & thorough responses! Yes, I am real sure that I saw that newspaper article, although it was written for a Berlin newspaper by one of the guys I studied for my dissertation. The year is correct, but you are undoubtly right in saying it described a moribund institution. |
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Subject: RE: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land From: GUEST,Chris Date: 09 May 01 - 09:51 AM Hi Bob, re your expressed interest in 'Frank the Poet',I've recently read 'Exiles from Erin'(Convict lives in Ireland and Australia),edited by Bob Reece of Murdoch Uni.WA. It has an interesting chapter on 'Frank the Poet'. According to this its not clear from the available sources whereabouts in Ireland he hailed from, but he may have been from Co Clare and a relative of Donncadh Rua Mac Conmara the Irish poet. Have you anything on this ? |
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Subject: RE: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land From: GUEST,Just looking Date: 12 Nov 05 - 09:11 AM Does anyone have any information regarding Americans & Canadians sent to Van Diemans Land as prisoners of the British in the 1820's? |
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Subject: RE: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land From: GUEST,Just looking Date: 12 Nov 05 - 09:25 AM Actually I think it was the late 1830's to the early 1840's. |
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Subject: RE: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land From: John Routledge Date: 12 Nov 05 - 09:44 AM What a cracking thread. Have been promising myself to learn a version of Van Dieman's land for many months. NOW I will. |
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Subject: RE: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land From: Georgiansilver Date: 12 Nov 05 - 12:30 PM These lyrics were written last year and are sung using a trad tune..."Both sides the Tweed" Best wishes, Mike. The water is deep and so wide, I fear that I cannot cross o'er. Nor have I the wings I might fly, To be with my true love once more. For Willie lives over the sea, In the land of Van Diemen they say. And I never will see my true love, Until my dying day. Found guilty they took him away, On His Majestys ship the good "Sire". Although he is so far from me, Twill not kill this loves inner fire. I'll go to that Van Diemens Land, To find the true love I adore. But I need of a handsome boatman, To row me to that distant shore. My true love shall see me again, For there will I go to his side. I will gather him close to my breast, He will take me to be his own bride. Though Van Diemens Land may be far, As there it is so will I be. I'll hold my true love again, And he in his turn shall hold me. Lyrics, Mike Hill (August 2004) Tune, trad (Both Sides the Tweed) |
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Subject: RE: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land From: Celtaddict Date: 12 Nov 05 - 02:22 PM There is an old book I ran across in haunting used bookstores, by a man writing as "Ralph Rashleigh" (thought likely a pen name) telling of his life in petty crime in London, his way through the courts, transportation, convict life, escape, time as bush ranger, ultimately redeemed life; while the name is probably fake and many of the exploits are quite melodramatic, and it seems unlikely all the described events happened to one person, some of the details ring quite true. Unfortunately I loaned the book to a friend and have yet to have it returned. (And I know better; this friend has had a long-out-of-print songbook for nigh on 20 years; I keep saying, please let me borrow it back to copy out the songs I want and I will gladly GIVE you the book.) |
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Subject: RE: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land From: Helen Date: 12 Nov 05 - 04:16 PM Hi Celtaddict, I discovered this website the other day for secondhand books in Oz, UK etc. James Tucker: Ralph Rashleigh Just look for prices in your range and location. I don't know where you are, but you could also try the Barnes and Noble or Amazon secondhand book searches. I have ordered books & CD's through the secondhand places and so far it has been prompt and reliable. Although I can't say on the Books & Collectibles site because I have just ordered something and I'm waiting for it to be delivered. I did start reading Ralph Rashleigh when I was studying Oz Lit about 3 decades ago, I never did finish it, mainly because I had to read so many books at one time that it wasn't a good way to "get into" any one book. Also, I don't lend books any more unless I really trust the person to give it back. It is so easy now with databases to find them secondhand or through the library. If I really want to lend one to someone I buy a cheap copy secondhand, and lend them that. You may be able to find the other book you want that way too. Helen |
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Subject: RE: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land From: paddymac Date: 12 Nov 05 - 07:40 PM Date: 23 Feb 00 - 05:53 AM Hi! Does anyone know the relation between Ireland and Van Diemen's land??? Need it for my Cert. (very quick), hope that anyone can help me!? Thanx Chris and Date: 23 Feb 00 - 02:20 PM Thank you all very much!!!!!!! You have no idea how much you helped me! Thanx! :-) ** I have greatly enjoyed rereading this thread, but it got me to wondering whether "Chris" has come back around the place. By now he's probably through with university, if that was his path. If you happen by, Chris, how aboiut a brief update on how the world has treated you thus far. |
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Subject: RE: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land From: Dave'sWife Date: 14 Nov 05 - 09:40 PM apropos of nothing - When my Dad was small, he thought Van Dieman's land was " Bandyman's land" or "Banditman's Land" And when he sang that verse of Black velvet Band that goes 'You're going ta Van Dieman's land" he always thought it said: 'You're going ta BanditMan's Land" |
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Subject: RE: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 14 Nov 05 - 11:24 PM In answer to "Just Looking's" question, it appears that a total of 154 Canadians were transported to Australia following their involvement in the political uprisings in Upper Canada (now Ontario) and Lower Canada (now Quebec) in 1837-38. Most returned to Canada after serving their sentences. Canada in Australia. I have no idea if any Americans were ever transported to Australia. Perhaps some of those who were involved in America's failed attempts to invade Canada wound up there. Bob Bolton might know. |
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Subject: In praise of Ralph Rashleigh From: Joybell Date: 14 Nov 05 - 11:39 PM Re Ralph Rashleigh. Helen - so I'm not the only one who's come across this wonderful book. It won't help in the current discussion but I just have to say it's a liitle gem. Written by a convict and not by someone after the event. It's an exagerated biography but the details about life in Sydney, seen from a convict's point of view, are acurate. I learned about the early Convict Theaters from this book. Well written by a very young man transported at the age of 17. I think it's unique of its type. Cheers, Joy |
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Subject: RE: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land From: GUEST,caitlynJ Date: 31 Aug 08 - 11:47 PM who was the criminals that were banished to van diemans land in the old ages. |
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Subject: RE: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land From: Jack Campin Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:50 AM Any crime not serious enough for a hanging. Thieves, prostitutes and drunken hooligans. I rather liked the response of one British comedian who was asked by some Aussie smartarse on his arrival there "does it bother you that most Australians are descended from convicts?" - he replied, "no, the ones that worry me are those whose ancestors were prison wardens". |
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Subject: Lyr Add: BOTANY BAY From: olddude Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:04 PM Oh I'm on my way down to the quay Where a big ship now does lie For to take a gang of navvies I was told to engage But I thought I would call in for a while Before I went away For to take a trip in an emigrant ship To the shores of Botany Bay Chorus: Farewell to your bricks and mortar Farewell to your dirty lime Farewell to your gangway and gang planks And to hell with your overtime For the good ship Ragamuffin She is lying at the quay For to take old Pat with a shovel on his back To the shores of Botany Bay The best years of our life we spend At working on the docks Building mighty wharves and quays Of earth and ballast rocks Our pensions keep our lives secure But I'll not rue the day When I take a trip on an emigrant ship To the shores of Botany Bay For the boss came up this morning And he said "Well Pat hello If you do not mix that mortar fast Be sure you'll have to go" Of course he did insult me I demanded of my pay And I told him straight I was going to emigrate To the shores of Botany Bay And when I reach Australia I'll go and look for gold Sure there's plenty there for the digging Or so I have been told Or I might go back into my trade Eight hundred bricks I'll lay In an eight hour day for eight bob pay On the shores of Botany Bay |
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Subject: RE: HELP ME, IMPORTANT!!!: Van Diemen's Land From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:36 PM For which, see also these threads from 1999: Shores of Botany Bay Botany bay & Don't come again |
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