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O.S. Preformated Text In Posts

Clinton Hammond2 23 Feb 00 - 02:21 PM
JedMarum 23 Feb 00 - 02:25 PM
Molly Malone 23 Feb 00 - 02:27 PM
Clinton Hammond2 23 Feb 00 - 02:55 PM
katlaughing 23 Feb 00 - 03:06 PM
Clinton Hammond2 23 Feb 00 - 03:11 PM
Arkie 23 Feb 00 - 03:34 PM
Bert 23 Feb 00 - 03:48 PM
Clinton Hammond2 23 Feb 00 - 03:55 PM
Jon Freeman 23 Feb 00 - 04:01 PM
Clinton Hammond2 23 Feb 00 - 04:23 PM
Clinton Hammond2 23 Feb 00 - 04:31 PM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 23 Feb 00 - 04:57 PM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 23 Feb 00 - 04:59 PM
Clinton Hammond2 23 Feb 00 - 05:25 PM
Amos 23 Feb 00 - 07:52 PM
Willie-O 23 Feb 00 - 08:13 PM
GUEST,_gargoyle 23 Feb 00 - 09:54 PM
Clinton Hammond2 23 Feb 00 - 09:58 PM
Clinton Hammond2 24 Feb 00 - 01:26 PM
Molly Malone 24 Feb 00 - 01:38 PM
Molly Malone 24 Feb 00 - 01:45 PM
Peg 24 Feb 00 - 02:06 PM
Clinton Hammond2 24 Feb 00 - 02:12 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Feb 00 - 05:11 PM
Clinton Hammond2 24 Feb 00 - 05:45 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Feb 00 - 07:42 PM
Malcolm Douglas 24 Feb 00 - 09:39 PM
GUEST,_gargoyle 24 Feb 00 - 10:03 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Feb 00 - 08:12 PM
raredance 25 Feb 00 - 09:30 PM
Joe Offer 26 Feb 00 - 04:15 AM
raredance 26 Feb 00 - 09:35 AM
Greg F. 26 Feb 00 - 09:47 AM
raredance 26 Feb 00 - 09:52 AM
Greg F. 26 Feb 00 - 11:59 AM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Feb 00 - 01:29 PM
Joe Offer 26 Feb 00 - 05:25 PM
Willie-O 26 Feb 00 - 06:17 PM
Clinton Hammond2 26 Feb 00 - 07:08 PM
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Subject: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 02:21 PM

Why oh why do we have to dink around with HTML code here when posting... especially when posting song lyrics and chords it is a right pain in the ass!! Setting up a form to use preformatted text can't be that hard, can it? Plenty of other places use it...

So why not here?

{~`


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: JedMarum
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 02:25 PM

format yer text in Word, then do a replace all Pargagraph marks with the HTML codes {br}, cut and pasted yer text into the Thread Reply box and your done. What could be simpler?


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: Molly Malone
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 02:27 PM

And at this point, do we want to put any more strain on the resources we have?

Besides, HTML isn't that bad. A pain in the ss, I'll grant you, but not difficult.


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 02:55 PM

What Could Be Simpler?!?!?!

Preformated text! That's what's simpler!

Format text in WORD?!?! An use anymore Micro$oft products than I have to?!?! Not on yer life!! LOL!!

Besides, your method is a bigger pain than HTML... needlessly complex...

The ability to simply type yer post and have it look exactily like you typed it is not resource heavy at all... It's just different code in the form I'm pretty sure...

And think of the headaches it'd cure...


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 03:06 PM

I doubt Max and his elves have a lot of time to devote to this right now. The little bit of HTML we all find useful to use here seems a small inconvenience compared to the benefits we all reap from such a wonderful site.

Also, because of what I've learned about HTML at the Mudcat, I've been able to build my own website without buying any expensive MS software!

katlaughing


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 03:11 PM

Good point Kat about learning HTML... but quite frankly Web Design software comes with most decent browsers these days, so you don't have to pay anything for it...

HEY!! I wonder if I can use my Composer to write posts?!?!?!?!?!

But If Max is so over-worked, why not farm out some of these tasks to Catters who want to help out?

It's just my 0.02m trying to make the Cat the best possible place it can be...

{~`


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: Arkie
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 03:34 PM

I have have not visited many forums, but of the few I have this is one is by far the easiest and simplest to deal with. Some are just click and wait. I am glad I found Mudcat first, or I might have quit before getting here. We just need html for the fancy stuff don't we? Or is someone reformatting this text for me?


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: Bert
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 03:48 PM

I think it's something to do with compatability with different browsers. I'll ask Max.


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 03:55 PM

I somehow doubt that is it, Simply because of the number of other MB's on the net that use prefomated text... but I'd appreciate you asking Max, bert... thanks....

{~`


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 04:01 PM

I'm just wondering what it would involve. This input form is currently just created by HTML using the FORM and related tags. Would doing anything else would involve some plug in or java applet? If so, you then come onto new problems of somebodys browser not liking it...

I don't bother much with any formating and although I sometimes get frustrated with the need for the line breaks, I don't think it is to much of a problem.

Jon


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 04:23 PM

I'm told that we could use the "preformat" html tag to preformat our own text...

  Does..........                that.............         work..........                                        here?????????  

Just testing....

{~`


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 04:31 PM

K... well that was a bust.. but I'm told that it's a quite easy thing to add to the CGI program running the server that the Form tag submits to....

I'll take further test to the Test thread...

Sorry 'bout that...


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 04:57 PM

I never thought about the <pre> and the closer for it. Let's see...

 Let us all unite Unite and unite And let us sleep on it Then wake up and eat!

Now to see what happens.


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 04:59 PM

Nope, it won't do anything with the <pre> command


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 05:25 PM

The preformat tag will change the font but it won't do anything else really....

I'm told it's because the server is unfortunatly "stripping newlines".... Too bad really... submitting lyrics and chords COULD be soooo easy...

{~`


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: Amos
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 07:52 PM

Just write your post on a blank Netscape page and then copy it as is from the "View HTML Source" view and paste it into the thread. Shows up just right.

A


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: Willie-O
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 08:13 PM

The (pre) tag hasn't worked worth a damn in years and years, and its been dis, uh, de--, degraded? denigrated? anyway, its one of those things that the html standard is not requiring browsers to support anymore.

Tossing in a (p) and (br) tag here and there is no big deal when your postings are multiple paragraphs...I'm still wondering what happened this afternoon when Clinton and I were both trying to post the lyrics to "Outside Track". I formatted (automatically) my text as a complete html document including header, submitted --and i couldn't see the rest of the thread at all, from where my html started. couldn't figure that out. did i crash it or was it just a problem at my end?

Anyway, I agree that Word is not needed. What I use to format things like that on the fly is a multi-document text editor--I use Note Tab Light. It does handy things to ascii files like stripping out inappropriate line breaks, or adding or stripping the html tags as needed. Without the ponderous wasteful resource usage of a big fat word processor. Course it would be better if it didn't crash threads, but you can't have it all!

Willie-O


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: GUEST,_gargoyle
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 09:54 PM

Dearest, most blessed and twisted, Cliton Hammod<<<

What sort of perverted ab-on-om-osity would have encouraged you (a poster of less than three months)to have the un-mitigatted audasity of challenged the "queen of metaphyisics" ... the Laugh Cat@


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 09:58 PM

Gargoyle...

I challenge what ever and who ever I feel like challenging...

and that's for that Oh so unclever joke with my name.. like I've never heard THAT one before!!! *sigh*

I expected a Mudcatters wit to be sharper...

{~`


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 01:26 PM

Refresh, till I hears from a board MOD...

{~`


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: Molly Malone
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 01:38 PM

Arkie-
Well, since your post seems to have gone unanswered for the most part...and there seems to be some ...childish pickering to further hide your request...
Mostly, if you are just writing straight text you don't need to worry about formatting. However, many times people post lyrics, and in that case you need to know about line breaks...
You can always hit enter twice, but that puts a double space, and it's harder to read that way...or you can go here and learn some very simple HTML code that you can use.


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: Molly Malone
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 01:45 PM

Here's a thought:

Create your own form (in Word or whatever turns your crank) and save it as a template. Then all you have to do is enter lyrics and then copy and paste. Hll, Excel would work, too.

Or better yet, Clinton, why don't YOU come up with a way to create a form that we could use? You seem to know your way around the lingo there...*g*


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: Peg
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 02:06 PM

I fail to understand why there is so much complaining (in the form of typing) about all the EFFORT involved in using code; surely if one has the time and energy to type in all these complaints, one has the time and energy to use the simple html code required for posting song lyrics...
all a question of where one wants to put one's energy I suppose...


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 02:12 PM

Good gods!

I've come off like I know what I'm talking about?!?!

HELL NO!! LOL!!!!!!

I know what I've seen elsewhere on the net, and I know what I've been told by the knowledgeable people that I've asked...

And they all agree, that 1) the current setup is needlessly complex and 2)changing it is not a big deal for the board MODs....

I myself am in a grey area when it comes to computer tech... I know some stuff... and I'm not afrad to dink around with things I don't know, because I know not to get in over my head and not to save changes I'm uncertain about!! LOL!!!!

As gargoyle mentioned further up, I'm still a newbie to MudCat... I'm just making my suggestions known to try to make this the best place it can be... I understand that's one of the things a community is all about...

{~`


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 05:11 PM

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Only time this'd make much diffeence is when you're posting a song, and feel like sticking chords above the appropriate words. But it's just as effective to stick them in brackets at the appropriate place instead.

eg:(C)Twinkle twinkle (F)little (C)star...

All right, we'd also get away from all the weird and wonderful spelling we get (especially from me). But I quite enjoy reading those - and they sometimes come up with great new words - for example "sogs", to refer to really drippy songs. (Amos has a much more eloquent definition, but with the supersearch out of commission I couldn't find it.)


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 05:45 PM

If it ain't broke, don't fix it?!?

I can agree with that but on the other side of the coin where's the room for improvement then?

Just wondering...

{~`


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 07:42 PM

Striving to better oft we mar what's well.

Changes that reduce injustice, suffering, and inequality, fine. All other change should be treated with great suspicion - especially when there's talk about improving efficiency.


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 09:39 PM

I've learnt some very useful basic html from posting here.  For example, that was a double space between sentences: a text editor like Notepad will give you only one space that will show up in html; if you want another you can add: &nbsp; -that'll do it.  A "blue clicky thing" is <a href="URL">something to click on</a>  etc.  I also got sufficiently interested in it to find out how to display the html instructions; anything that involves learning a new skill has a lot to be said for it!

<PRE> does work, but it's a bit limiting: for example:
Here is a line    

followed by 2 carriage returns followed by 5 spaces.

Not very interesting to look at.  There may well be a case for making it easier for people to post formatted lyrics, but I don't think it's much of a priority; if I can learn to do it, then anybody can; it's not difficult.

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: GUEST,_gargoyle
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 10:03 PM

Dear Mr. Hammond,

The previous posting, mis-representing/defiling your name, was NOT from me.

I understand your frustration, I too experienced it.

In the past several different posts have requested a "mark" an "authentican" a "handshake" to "identify" "Mudcatters."

Personaly, I view the minimal miniscual knowledge of "HTML" as a "right of passage" into the MudCat.
...1. You experience it...learn it ...and stay... ...2. You get frustrated and Leave

It is one hell-ov-a-lot easier than ABC, TAB, etc


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 08:12 PM

Gargoyle. I have long held (and expressed a suspicion that some of the nastier things printed under your name are forgeries. I'm glad to have this confirmed. Unless this last post was the forgery...

I think it's worth the cookies to avoid this kind of confusion.


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: raredance
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 09:30 PM

I jump into this fray with reluctance, but I find that I am sympathetic to C Hammond's position. When I first starting posting lyrics in here several years ago, I was dismayed that the posts did not come up looking the same as I had typed them. I found out in a month or two, that a double return would actually move text to a new line, although with a line skipped in between. The logic has always totally escaped me (3 returns = 3 spaces; 2 returns = 2 spaces; 1 return = no spaces). The choice at that time was either slashes for line breaks which makes for ugly poetry or the double space that would extend long lyrics on forever. I would guess it was a year before someone posted a message that by adding the right collection of arcane carrots and letters and other assorted gibberish (called HTML code), it was possible to get a single line break. I took to using it although it felt much like regression to unintuitive DOS commands. It's not likely anyone has noticed but I have yet to incorporate the blue thingy clicker into any of my posts. It's not that they aren't handy, I just don't feel compelled to jump through the necessary hoops. I will mostly say something is in the DT and give a search word that works, or once in a while copy and paste a URL which anyone else can copy and paste to use. The notion of HTMLing the text in a word processor (I think my WordPerfect 7 is supposed to do it) ignores a very real problem for AOL users, i.e. getting bumped off line. If I go to a word processor, not only can't I easily see the previous posts to a thread, but I am likely to have to log on again, go to Mudcat, find the thread and download the thread once more in order to paste in my fancified text. I spend enough time as it is waiting for individual threads to load or waiting for the reload following a "submit". It is bad enough typing in wile staying on line. I have already been interrupted twice by AOL message wanting to know if I want to stay on line. I have to stop typing and reach for the mouse to clik on "yes". In the process the cursor has to be repositioned back at the point where I was typing. If the AOL (excuse me it just did again) message pops up while I am in a burst of typing, I also lose whatever was typed from the point of the pop-up. I wouldn't mind being able to efficiently use my word processor for typing up tings, because I could use the spelling checker. My fingers and brain are no longer as cleverly wired together as they once were, and typos occur with great regularity and the errors extend to extra codes that may be required. One of the big innovations of computer word processing software and monitor imaging of the early 90's was (to use the horrendous acronym) "wysiwyg". I think it would be really nice if the forum could at least support the one return, one line concept. Or I guess I could leave. Bye

rich r


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Feb 00 - 04:15 AM

Well, you can't leave, Rich. You have a better songbook collection than mine, and you can't leave until you've posted all those songs AND tunes - using proper HTML tags. <grin>
-Joe Offer, the guy who puts the tags in if you don't-


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: raredance
Date: 26 Feb 00 - 09:35 AM

For the record, I typed some lyrics to the "Old man at the mill" thread in Corel 7, converted it to HTML using that program. The most noticeable effect on my screen was that all the lyrics lines (i.e. hard returns) now appeared as double spaced lines. I copied and pasted into the forum and all the coding disappeared, so the only thing I gained is an HTML file on my hard drive. Perhaps it's the bane of software incompatibility.

Joe "the Tagger" Offer, does that mean you were able to read the list?

rich r


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Feb 00 - 09:47 AM

Rich:

Sounds like you're blaming the 'Cat for something you should be complaining to AOL about! ;-)

While I find the necessity of adding the 'tags' a minor inconvenience, with the 'search and replace' approach, really takes me only seconds longer. One man's opinion: think there are other things that Max, Dick, et.al. could apply scarce 'Cat resources to before worrying about this.

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: raredance
Date: 26 Feb 00 - 09:52 AM

Yes, and AOL is so responsive, why that's a damn fine idea.

rich r


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Feb 00 - 11:59 AM

Well, for folks having problems with AOL, suggest switching to a real I.S.P. instead & use Netscape- which will auto-format HTML in its later (free!) versions :-)

Greg


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Feb 00 - 01:29 PM

Most of the time when I want to post a song and put in chorss, I provide a link as well to my own website where I've already got them in the right place.


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformatted Text In Posts
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Feb 00 - 05:25 PM

I guess I'm in favor of leaving things as they are, although I wonder if it would be possible for Max to give us automatic line breaks without a lot of extra code. That would sure make things easier. In the meantime, I hope you'll consider putting in <br> line breaks when you're posting lyrics. It makes things so much easier for those of us who have to fix stuff. I'm glad we have a forum that allows the use of HTML in messages, because it's nice to be able to post links and occasional other fancy stuff - but I agree that it would be nice if we didn't have to put in those line breaks.

I've gotten so used to this HTML stuff that I find myself typing <br> and <a href=http://www.hinkydink.org>click</a> in letters I send home to Mom. It's OK, though - she's always known I'm weird....

You'll find all the HTML you'll ever want to use at Mudcat on this page (click). All you really need is the line breaks, but the other stuff is kind of fun to use. Please don't use HTML tags in Forum messages unless you know what those tags are going to do. Feel free to practice in practice threads, but I don't think it's wise to practice HTML in music threads. We delete messages in practice threads and don't consider that censorship, but we're reluctant to delete other messages. If you goof up, that's another matter - just post a call for help in the "Help" forum, and somebody will drop by and fix your mistake.

I notice that sometimes if a Mudcatter posts a song without line breaks, somebody else will come along and post the same lyrics and include line breaks. That poses an ethical dilemna for those of us who have "edit" buttons. Do we reformat the original post and delete the second (which duplicates the efforts of the well-intentioned reformatter), or do we do the easy thing and delete the first post and leave the corrected one? I think that maybe for the sake of saving space and time, it might be best if people do not post a second copy of lyrics simply to correct HTML - just post a request in the Help forum, and somebody with an "edit" button will come along and fix the problem. For the same reason, saving space, I think it's usually best not to post lyrics that are already in the database - better to post a link, or instructions on how to search for the lyrics.

I hesitate to suggest that people use HTML editors to prepare their Mudcat posts. My experience is that you get too much extraneous HTML from most HTML editors (and the HTML functions of MS Word and Outlook). All that extra HTML slows down the Forum.

So, Max, would it be an easy thing for you to set up the forum so we wouldn't have to put in those line breaks but could still use other HTML?

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: Willie-O
Date: 26 Feb 00 - 06:17 PM

I've just been discussing with Joe how I managed to crash the Outside Track thread the other day. Although I wasn't able to replicate the experience (good thing that), it clearly breaks HTML rules to post (head) tags and (body) tags within a document that already has them. So I won't do that anymore, if/when I have occasion to paste in pre-formatted HTML. It only takes a second to delete them.

Willie-O


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Subject: RE: O.S. Preformated Text In Posts
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 26 Feb 00 - 07:08 PM

Greg...

It's not a matter of resources... It's not like setting up the posts to follow preformatting takes extra bandwidth or makes a server work harder...

Everyone I've talked to who knows anything about HTML or running servers that accept forms says that this is an incredilby easy thing to implement

It would also mean that the HTML tags wouldn't have to be removed before the song is added to the Data Base...

The web designers I've talked ta are surprised that the MudCat forum wasn't started using preformatted text...

I have 257 songs as Corel 9 documents on my 'puter right now... 97% of which are not in the data base... and I'd love to add them, but I'm not doing it if I have to add HTML crap to them one at a time... And I'd bet I'm not hte only on in this boat...

{~`


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