Lyr Req: Amadou Diallo

Subject: Amadou Diallo
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Feb 00 - 09:06 PM

Reading the stories in the paper about the acquittal of the New York police plain clothes death squad who killed Amadou Diallo. For a police service that's supposed to go for zero tolerance, that zero seems to be set at a pretty high level for their own members.

I remember there was a song on a thread about Amadou Diallo (I think by InObU) - but without the Super Search I can't find it. I'd be grateful if someone could find it and repost it.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amadou Diallo
From: canoer
Date: 27 Feb 00 - 11:30 PM

Zero tolerance, properly understood, is the department's zero tolerance for rounds not expended during an encounter.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amadou Diallo
From: Chet W.
Date: 28 Feb 00 - 08:51 PM

I for one would love to hear from somebody who was there and can tell us something the papers didn't. Either a man was killed with intent by four murderous maniacs, or another horrible tragedy that this time did not end up with a dead cop happened in a place where little but tragedy can occur. I do know that no matter what is in their hearts and how hard they try, teachers and cops can do no right. Please if anyone wants to walk in ahead of the cops and make sure there are no guns, step up and say so. I don't know if the trial's outcome was right or not, and unless you were there at the killing and had the jury's view of the trial, neither do you.

Chet

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amadou Diallo
From: canoer
Date: 28 Feb 00 - 09:48 PM

Chet, it is true that anyone becoming a cop in any major metropolitan area is stepping into a meatgrinder. Hardly anyone can imagine the pressures without having been there.

However, one fact is understood by most everyone on the force and off. A cop using deadly force will be protected to the maximum extent possible, regardless of guilt or innocence. In the Amadou trial, the prosecution numerous times let stand questionable defense allegations. The jury received only a sanitized version of events and character. They could only play the hand they were dealt. But the cards were stacked.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amadou Diallo
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Feb 00 - 10:07 PM

Hey Mac!!!! Do you remember about what date that was...just approx? Like what was going on here then or something that would trigger an approximate time frame to search in???

Spaw

Subject: Lyr Add: CENTURIES OF PAIN: THE BALLAD OF AMADOU..
From: InOBU
Date: 29 Feb 00 - 01:24 AM

Centuries of Pain The Ballad of Amadou Diallo
Lorcan Otway

Amadou was born, where humanity sprang from,
In a land forced to give away its best.
Where a foreigners hand, stole the riches from the land
even tearing her children from her breast.
Verdant forests cut down, and gold ripped from the ground
and her diamonds sparkling in many a foreign crown
Ancient wisdom denied, history buried beneath lies
hers a legacy of centuries of pain.

He came to a land of gold, where his homelands wealth was sold,
hoping he could find a place to make his way.
By the sweat of his brow, he would make a life somehow,
in a strange land far from family and friends.
In the streets of New York, he set out to live his dreams
though things where much different than his hopes
still he felt he'd get by, not often wondering why,
here his people found a legacy of pain.

Coming home one night, in his hallways stark white light,
gunmen challenged him - he turned to ask them why.
Many shots then blazed, Amadou stood amazed
Why was he being murdered by these men?
In that hallway where he died, once again many men lied,
saying Amadou was reaching for a gun.
But history is clear, so many die each year,
This is still our nations legacy of pain

A mother came to take, her child back to lie
in the soil from which humanity emerged.
In a brave mothers tears, we saw the burden of the years,
of a land forced to give away her best
Amadu my son, what have these strangers done?
Could they not see the son I held so dear?
Where they blinded by their badge, or the color of your skin?
or the legacy of centuries of pain?

Thanks for remembering the song. As to being there, I am here in a nation where marginalized people are invisable. We place a name and association on them, which makes it possible for the gunmen of our society to not empathize with their victems. This is why it was neccessary to change venue. It was necessisary to have a jury who did not know, or forgot what it was to be invisable to the inforcers of the states policies.
Invisablity is very easy, we see it happen here, when we react to what we expect the other person to say, about, for example, England or Ireland, and I have tried in my music and my on line disscussions to get people to see people for who they are, not as who we paint them.
I did the same in my legal career, which is why dear friends sold me out and I am now playing music.
life is funny - it is much more difficult to be seen than it is to be invisable.
All the best
LO

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amadou Diallo
From: Amergin
Date: 29 Feb 00 - 05:46 AM

Maybe, I'll sign up with the police force, so I can legally murder innocent people. Ain't life grand and politics grander? Personally, I think Guilliani (is that how you spell it?) had something to do with this disgraceful comedy of a trial, because as the mayor of New York a gulty verdict would have reflected badly on him and therefore damaging his bid for the Senate. Remember: politics is the breadline for the unemployed comedian.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amadou Diallo
From: Chet W.
Date: 29 Feb 00 - 07:14 AM

Those of you with some knowledge of law must know that if the prosecutor had tried for something less than murder they might very well have gotten a conviction. Conviction for murder from a non-OJ type jury was never a possibility. If a conviction of any kind were ever possible, it was the prosecutor, bowing to the demands of politics, who gave it away. As it now stands, if those cops should have been made to pay for killing an innocent man (and I never said they shouldn't - I just said I didn't know because I wasn't there), they never will.

Chet

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amadou Diallo
From: Chet W.
Date: 29 Feb 00 - 07:18 AM

I was also saying that, as a teacher, I know what it means to be an easy target to blame when a whole lot of things come together to cause a bad situation.

Chet

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amadou Diallo
From: canoer
Date: 29 Feb 00 - 08:44 AM

OK, Chet.

Thanks to InOBU. Wow, what a statement. So true as far as everything I've seen.

Check this out. Here we see cops, a teacher, a lawyer – three very high-profile occupations – where individuals enter, in most cases I believe, with hopes of doing good and being of service. Yet the structure is such that, if one actively pursues those hopes, the pressure is on you to shut up and fall in line. NOT to accept and nurture what you have to give. (In general – of course there are exceptions.)

Disheartening, ain't it? --LC

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amadou Diallo
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Feb 00 - 09:27 AM

You hit it right on the head. I was just now discussing this very subject with a colleague. We concluded that not very many teachers start this career not wanting to make a positive difference in children's lives, but as you say, the system beats it out of you after awhile. A lot of stress comes from trying not to have your compassion and strength beaten out of you, and to survive the beating. In teaching, the evaluation standards for an outspoken reform-minded teacher are entirely different than those for a winning football coach/drivers ed teacher.

Chet

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amadou Diallo
From: canoer
Date: 29 Feb 00 - 09:51 AM

Ain't it the truth. But nobody tells you that BEFORE you go in!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amadou Diallo
From: InOBU
Date: 29 Feb 00 - 12:01 PM

Thanks for the complements:
As long as the numbers dont get out of hand, I would be happy to send a live tape of our band, informally recorded at Bagatelle, in NYC, to those who are interested in the Amadou Diallo song, email me your address at [e-mail]. I will do, first come first served, considering Canoer and of course McGrath of Harlow as first in line so far,
All the best
Larry

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amadou Diallo
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Feb 00 - 02:42 PM

Thanks InObu - that was why I started the thread, to get the song words, rather than to kick up a fight.

"Those of you with some knowledge of law must know that if the prosecutor had tried for something less than murder they might very well have gotten a conviction."

Well my understanding is that there were lesser charges, and they weren't convicted on them either.

If you carry a gun in the name of the law, your first duty is to protect the public, even in front of your right to protect yourself. Tough, but that is the basis on which it can be seen as an honourable calling. I am sure there must be police who see it that way. I can't see them very proud to be associated with four men who empty their guns into someone because they think he just might have a gun in his pocket, and be in the process of starting to pull it out.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amadou Diallo
From: kendall
Date: 29 Feb 00 - 03:02 PM

How about if we arm the cops with muzzel loading flintlock pistols? Make one shot count 'cause that's all you get.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amadou Diallo
From: GUEST,Petr
Date: 29 Feb 00 - 04:13 PM

There was a similar case though not as high profile here in Vancouver BC where during a drug raid on (I think) a marijuana growing operation the police shot and killed an innocent teenage boy who went to answere the door with a TV remote in his hand. I guess they thought it was a phaser. Eventually the police were cleared. But I think it might be worth looking into using non deadly weapons such ones that fire bean bags or some kind other alternatives (stun gun) which I believe are being tried by some police departments.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amadou Diallo
From: Chet W.
Date: 29 Feb 00 - 05:10 PM

McGrath, (and I do pronounce it correctly), as was put so well in "Thelma and Louise", "The law is some tricky shit." A prosecutor has to know that when lesser charges are filed in connection to something as serious as murder, the jury generally votes the same way on the lessers as they did on the murder charge. The prosecutor in this case cut himself a sweet deal because he filed a the most serious charge possible, which pleased the community, but also one that he knew he couldn't get a conviction on, which pleased the mayor. Of course you're right that they officer takes the job knowing he/she is putting their life on the line to protect the public. If it were something like jumping in the river to try an impossible-looking rescue, I think you'd see many of them do it. But when you've seen your colleagues shot dead enough times because they waited to see if it was a gun or a remote, the decision to wait becomes a lot harder. In a location where guns are prevalent and bystanders and other civilians are shot much more often than are cops, one might reasonably think "who will be protected when I'm laying down dead?". Again, my belief is that we will never know who did the right or wrong thing, IF we think it's important to know what was in their minds when they did what they did. If you can believe that sometimes things happen without prior comtemplation, please don't call me a murderer if somebody falls on my steps and dies of a head injury, unless you really think I greased them up first just to be malicious or at least maliciously reckless. I deplore what happened, and I deplore the way it happened, but I think, according to what we've been told, that the jury did what they had to do. I think most of us would not be a cop for any price. I realize I've made myself unpopular here, but in my line of work you get used to that.

Chet

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amadou Diallo
From: paddymac
Date: 29 Feb 00 - 06:53 PM

My only knowledge of the incident and trial is from occasional scanning of press stories about it. Thus, I can not say with any confidence or competence what happened in either circumstance, much less whether it was justified or just, or not. Having some experience behind a badge, I do know that there is scant opportunity to carefully analyze many situations before chosing what action is appropriate, or having a choice forced on you by swirling circumstances. Having also spent some time doing criminal defense law, I also know that the people behind badges are a fair cross-section of the human race. Most are decent folks trying to do their best in difficult situations, and some are scumbags. The same can be said about doctors, lawyers, merchants, Indian chiefs, clergy and any other sub-set of humanity. The goal is to identify and weed out the misfits. That process is on-going, and requires thoughtful reasoning,due process and diligence. Emotion is generally more of an impediment than a help in this context. This is perhaps a different way of saying it, but I believe it is congruent with my sense of what Chet says above.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amadou Diallo
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Feb 00 - 08:30 PM

If one of the plain clothes police squad had made a mistake and fired off a gun that happened to kill an unarmed civilian, that would sound like a tragic mistake. But four of them, and two of them emptying their guns?

As I understand it, in America it's legal for civilians to have guns, and they are entitled to use those guns if they are in danger of their lives, or have reasonable cause to think they are in danger of their lives. Can any one really believe that, if four civilians emptied their guns into an unarmed stranger who was taking his wallet out of his pocket, they would be found not guilty of anything? "We all thought it was a gun" just wouldn't be good enough.

I'm not anti-police. I've got family who are in the Gardai. But a bad cop is the worst enemy a policeman can have. And a trigger happy cop is the worst kind of bad cop. If I was a New York policeman, I'd feel safer if those kind of cops were long gone. This is where zero tolerance has to apply.