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Lyr Add: Warrington Fair, with translation

AndyG 01 Mar 00 - 12:25 PM
AndyG 01 Mar 00 - 12:27 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 01 Mar 00 - 06:46 PM
harpgirl 02 Mar 00 - 08:14 AM
AndyG 02 Mar 00 - 09:23 AM
MMario 02 Mar 00 - 09:52 AM
Malcolm Douglas 02 Mar 00 - 10:14 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 03 Mar 00 - 02:06 AM
AndyG 06 Mar 00 - 07:18 AM
Snuffy 06 Mar 00 - 07:05 PM
GUEST,J 12 Jun 08 - 09:28 AM
GUEST,janice 21 Feb 09 - 03:35 AM
Marilyn 21 Feb 09 - 07:10 AM
sid 23 Feb 09 - 06:01 AM
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Subject: Warrington Fair: FAO BruceO
From: AndyG
Date: 01 Mar 00 - 12:25 PM

BruceO asked in another thread (Lyr/Chords Req: Lancashire folk songs) for a translation of the dialect ballad Warrington Fair.
I'm neither a dialect speaker or writer, but I was born and bred in Lancashire so I'm putting up my understanding of the lyric and hoping that other Lanky's out there will chip in with their takes on the song.

AndyG


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Subject: RE: Warrington Fair: FAO BruceO
From: AndyG
Date: 01 Mar 00 - 12:27 PM

For what it's worth here's a take on the first 30 lines.
Bruce O's commentary in bold
My interpretations in italics my guesses are underlined

Notes:
This song seems to be from South Lancs.
whom (meaning home), is pronouced WOM not HOOM
Wur can mean
was - a wur goin t'doit - I was going to do it.
were - wi wur goin wezzed - we were going west
we're - wur goin wezzed - we are going west
where - wur izzit ? - where is it ?
hoo, literally her, used to mean she
Caw, normally Ca' in dialect writing is literally call or called, used in the sense of "said"
eg caw hoo = said she

Warrington Fair

001: Hoorry me gentles, an inny wun tarry,
002: I'll tell o how Gilbert Scott sowd is mere Berry. (sold)
Hurry my gentles, should anyone tarry
I'll tell of how Gilbert Scott sold his mare Berry

003: He sowd is Mere Berry at Warritt'n Fere, (Warrington Fair)
004: Baw coud naw tell whether t be pede ere or nere (it be paid or not?)
He sold his mare Berry at Warrington Fair
But could not decided whether to be paid then and there

005: Baw when he coom whom, e toud is weif Greace (came home)
006: Hoo up with a Kibboo, an swatt im o'r th' Fece (Kibboo- small iron tool, used in making flax)
But when he came home he told his wife grace
She took up a kibboo and beat him about the face

007: He towd her god monny a mad farrant teele (many a mad silly tale)
008: At hoo sweer he was madder in Tum-agood-ele. (that she swore he)
He told her good many a mad silly tale
That she swore was maddened by good tasty ale

009: Baw when i' good yornst hoo soe noo munny coome (earnest, truly she saw no money came)
010: Ten hoo lede abawt uppaw Gilbert soon, (then she laid about)
But when in all earnest she saw no money come
Then she laid about our poor Gilbert soon

011: Hoo thrust im tuth Hillock wo siche a thwack,
012: At he had welly brokken his Back
She thrust him to the hillock with such a thwack
That he had well nigh broken his back

013: Thou whoor, caw he, int(?)l(?)e lemme rise,
014: I'll githed awth' Light, aw in me lies (lost? all the the light)
Thou whore, called he and if you let me rise
from context the next line must mean, I'll tell you the truth as well as I can
or something similar as Gilbert goes on to describe the buyer thus, I'll give thee all the ???, all in my ???

015: Ah' Monn's Cwote wur a grey, ea good thrum-hat, (he had a good)
016: Foo quickly wur I espy'd aw that
The man's coat was a grey, he'd a good thrum-hat
Full quickly I espied all that

017: His bond was tood, with a Congorton-Pwoint, (band was tied)
018: Wo two or three Gaggs at oith eend varry quoint, (each end very quaint)
His band was tied with a Congelton Point
With two or three Gaggs?? at each end very quaint

I'm assuming band = cravat, (NB the silk industry in Congleton (Chesire) in 1752)

019: His doublit wus blue, an his breekes wurr green
020: An his Shoon wudden a doon[,] a mon good to ha seen;
His doublet was blue, and his breeks were a green
And his shoes wouldn't have done, a man good to have seen

I can't make any sense of that line.

021: Hor k(R?N?)om wurn aw brown, e spike spon new
022: Wo greit brode squere noses, as I am true.
???? wasn't all brown, he spoke ??? ???
With great broad square noses as I am true

023: A goodly brode gurdle, a lether was gurt. (broad girdle, of leather)
024: About im like won oth' better swort. (one of the.. sort)
A goodly broad girdle of leather, was girt
about him, like one of the better sort

025: Aw doon wo brass=buckoos, at mede siche a shaw (made such a show)
026: At I durst ha trustit im with price on a Cow.
All down with brass buckles that made such a show
That I dared have trusted him with the price of a cow

Is it possible that lines 021 - 026 are describing a horse/horses ?

027: Baw how N(R?)etts he, caw hoo, ar where doozy dwell! (name? does he)
028: Bimilakin caw he, tat I conne tell. (oath - By my Lady, Virgin Mary)
But how ??? he, said she, and where does he dwell
By my lady's kin said he, that I cannot tell

029: For why, caw he, I cowd naw for shawm (could not for shame)
030: Misduttim so miche ast ask im his naum, (misdoubt him so much as to)
For why, said he, I could not for shame
Misdoubt him so much as to ask him his name


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Subject: RE: Warrington Fair: FAO BruceO
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 01 Mar 00 - 06:46 PM

Thanks. I think I got the sense of most of it. In line 8 I think it's a stock fictitious character named, 'Thomas-good-ale', brother of 'John Barleycorn' and 'Mas Maut' (malt). Bimilikins is obviously related to an old mild oath, 'Berlady' (by our lady)

As for describing horses, I don't know 17th century terminology that well. In early copies of "Scewball" 'cattle' are mentioned where it's obvious that they are horses.


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Subject: RE: Warrington Fair: FAO BruceO
From: harpgirl
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 08:14 AM

...thanks AndyG and BruceO...very interesting....harpgirl


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Subject: RE: Warrington Fair: FAO BruceO
From: AndyG
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 09:23 AM

Bruce,
I'd assumed from your comments you'd got most of the sense, but I couldn't see a way of discerning which bits you'd got and which bits you wanted help with, so the easy way is to do the whole lyric. Also I wanted other UK Northerners to give input on their understanding of stuff I might get wrong or fail to interpret. As I said I don't speak Lancs. dialect I've just heard a lot of it.

here's a take on the lines 31 - 50.
Bruce O's commentary in bold
My interpretations in italics my guesses are underlined

Notes:
words like Book, cook, look are pronounced as Luke.

031: Bawth' inwost oth' reidinesse azzee hea, (azzee? also in l. 43)
032: I mun meet im o wonsday at Rondle a Shea (Wednesday.. Randle a'Shea's)
But the rest of the readiness has he here readiness <> ready money <> cash still due
I must meet him on Wednesday at Rondle a Shea
Is this a french name eg "??? de la Sheer" ? There's certainly a Delamere in Cheshire I certainly think it's a place name not a person.

033: Ten Grece hoo wor angry, baw yet hoo lough. (but yet she laughed)
034: Now marry caw hoo, tatts e'en reidinesse inough.
Then Grace she was angry but yet she laughed
Now marry, said she, thats even readiness enough

but then this line doesn't make a lot of sense

035: Bot as it feel out oth' tother dea,
036: He mett wuth is nebor Rondle a Shea.
But as it fell out ??? the other day
He met with his neighbor ** Rondle a Shea

** as I think R-a-S is a place, perhaps "in/at" fits here

037: Nyeam Rondle, caw he, I he soud my good Mere,
038: For noonteen grotes at Warritt'n Fere (nineteen groats)*
??? ???, said he, I he sold my good mare
For nineteen groats at Warrington Fair

039: Gilbert, caw he, who soudnyer too? (soydnyer?)
040: Now in yoan beleeme, t know naw too who
Gilbert, said he, who sold her too ?
Who did you sell her (the mare) to?
Now in your own belief, to know not to who
On your own addmission you don't know who he was

041: Knoni naw who yo ken souder too senny (?)
042: Ten fure yo ken th' munny. Naw yet, n'er a penny
Knowing not who you have sold her too suddenly
Then 'fore you see the money. Not yet, never a penny

ken = know/knowledge, 041 I think is effectively saying
"Being unacquainted with the buyer you sold the mare om impulse."
039 -42 are addressed to Gilbert by his neighbour

043: Ba'wth munny's as fure, azzee yore honds, ar mine, (azzee?)
044: For innee rook me, I'll nere heed t felly agein. (an he rob me)
but the money's as sure, as in your hands , or mine
I gambling that "fure" is an archaic "s" in this case.
For if he rooks me, I'll not listen to the fellow again rook=cheat

045: He lookt like a grethly onnist mon's Son, (greatly honest man's son)
046: An he spent tuppone on ma when oo hadd'n dun. (two-penny... he had done)
He looked like a gradely honest man's son
And he spent tuppence on me when I hadn't done

ie he spent tuppence on me when I'd spent nothing on him
gradely = NW expression meaning fine, splendid.

047: He gan ma a lunch on a donty snig-py,
048: An shook me bith hand whoint lovingly. (both hands -?)
He gave me a lunch and (on) a dainty snig-py (pie?)
And shook me by the hand ??? lovingly

049: Baw Grece, hoo to Warritn aw wonsday betime, (she to Warrington)
050: An left Gilburt a whom out oth Curn fort tent swine. (at home, tend swine)
But Grace, she to Warrington all Wednesday betime
And left Gilbert at home out of ??? for to tend swine

049 = Grace spent all wednesday in Warrington


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Subject: RE: Warrington Fair: FAO BruceO
From: MMario
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 09:52 AM

"cattle" was used at one time as a generic term basically meaning "livestock" - which in some cultures included indentured servants, serfs and/or slaves. I believe the term "cattle" was used even as late as Regency England in regard to teams of carriage horses.


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Subject: RE: Warrington Fair: FAO BruceO
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 10:14 PM

Out of interest, there is a small guide to Lancashire Dialect at TROUBLE AT' MILL's site,  here. (http://www.btinternet.com/~troubleatmill/speak.htm)

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: Warrington Fair: FAO BruceO
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 02:06 AM

Here's a list that I made a few years ago of words that I couldn't identify or was uncertain about. Bear in mind that this is my reading of 17th century handwriting, and I'm no expert. What looks like a wavy line is some combination of m's, n's, u's and v's, and can be very difficult to figure out. c and r are very similar. o's and e's sometimes can't be distinguished, so most often, but maybe not in Lancashire, hoo is hee, and shoo is shee. Script ff for F is common and often misread, but H is quite similar. R, K and B are quite similar also. Where I have Kibbo in one line, a later version has Ribbo, which doesn't make sense.

word / line
in?t?le, 13
githed, 14
hocm? korm?, 21
spon, 21
hefts? heffs, Reffs, 27
reidinesse, reidinesl?e, 31,34
Nyeam, 37 [title? something like Nunco? uncle
Niom, 39 [see above]
soudnyer, 39
beleeme, 40, 80
senny, 41
azzee, as he? 43
wheint, 48
creves?, 60
incer?, 69
woint, 70
binny, 79, 101
pitkt, 83
Rout on his Rough, 83
Monkeen, 101


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Subject: RE: Warrington Fair: FAO BruceO
From: AndyG
Date: 06 Mar 00 - 07:18 AM

Sorry I thought I'd posted this on Friday, anyway here's a take on the lines 50 - 68.
Bruce O's commentary in bold
My interpretations in italics my guesses are underlined

051: An there hoo contiunu't for five Markit deas,
052: Bawth' Munny ne'r coom too Rondle a Sheas.
And there she continued for five market days(stayed)
But the money never came to Rondle a Sheas.

053: Bot eith won as hoo met oo sicher a parell, (each one as she met with such an apparel)
054: Wuth com streight an eend hoo begun for to quarrell.
But each one she met who'd such apparel
Would come straight ??? ???she began for to quarrel

055: Sos, ho my good Freend, now doony naw wott, (now do you not know)
056: (Wen?, or) Toon as bought a Mere aw Gilbert a Scott.
Says, Ho my good friend, now don't you know what
??? as bought a Mare off Gilbert a Scott

057: Ten aw mon lough wo might, & Mean,
058: Sos yonders sure sum simpoo Quean,
Then ??? man laugh with might and main
Says yonder's sure some simple Queen

059: For hoo gadds up an down, here an there
060: An still creves munny, hoo knowsnaw where. (craves the money)
For she gads up and down, here and there
And still craves money, she knows not where

061: Ten wared Grece both pele & wan,
062: Hoo had askt soe lung, & wist naw whom.
The weared Grace both pale and wanwear = grow/become
She had asked so long, and wished now home wanted to go home

063: Bot as hoo was resting her sell in a Rawm,
064: Hoo wus a war oth' Mon cum with Mere upth' town. (she was aware of man come with mare)
But as she was resting herself in a room
She was aware off (a) man come with mare up the town

065: Gon wared Grece bwoth blithe, & merry,
066: An thowt hoo shud now he munny for Berry. (have money for Berry)
Then weared Grace both blyth and merry
And thought she should now have money for Berry

067: An for fear hoo shud misse on im hoo wus soe gloppen
068: At for hest through th' window hoo had liket' a loppen,
And for fear she shud miss him she was so gloppen
That for haste through the window she had like a loppen, I'd guess loppen (leap?) rabbit/hare


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Subject: RE: Warrington Fair: FAO BruceO
From: Snuffy
Date: 06 Mar 00 - 07:05 PM

In the OED lope/loup are given as variants of leap, and loppen could be the past participle of lope (I lope, I loped, I have loppen). Lope also means to run, or run away, and is related to modern German laufen and I think Dutch also has loopen, both of which are the normal words for "run"


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Subject: RE: Warrington Fair: FAO BruceO
From: GUEST,J
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 09:28 AM

I don't really know if somebody will ever read this as the posts above date from 2000! Anyway, I'm currently working on this ballad for a presentation at a Conference. I see the version you've been trying to 'decipher' is that at Bruce Olson's Web Site. After a thorough comparison of this transcription with the original MS, I realised there were (apparently) some spelling mistakes which could be misleading. As for some of the dialect words you don't know, I could give you a clue.

Should Andy G or Snuffy ever read this, drop me a line and we can discuss about this.


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Subject: RE: Warrington Fair: FAO BruceO
From: GUEST,janice
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 03:35 AM

I was born in warrington surname swindells (some sort of reference to swine in the dell)? I always thought that a snig was a worm? My dad used to say "Don't stand on a snig because you will make it rain"??
I live in australia now but I am very interested in this sort of thing.


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Subject: RE: Warrington Fair: FAO BruceO
From: Marilyn
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 07:10 AM

I was brought up in Widnes which is only a stone's throw away from Warrington.

A snig to us was a leech. There was a brook running through the fields at the back of our house and, if we went paddling in it, we came out with 'snigs' attached to our legs!


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Subject: RE: Warrington Fair: FAO BruceO
From: sid
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 06:01 AM

Ey Up! - "snig" seems to have come to mean anything slimy and wiggly! The most common Lancashire definition is "eel", still in use in some quarters, which then makes sense in "Snig Pie". I've been singing this song for years and know what it's about. I would be very interested in the "original MS" mentioned by GuestJ, in June, as the earliest version I've found is in J O Halliwell's 'Dictionary of Archaic & Provincial Words' from the early C19th. It seems to be him that gave it the date of 1548, and all the other Victorian song collectors followed him! I can't prove it but I have a lingering doubt that he may not be right.


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