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Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff
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Subject: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: Joe Offer Date: 03 Mar 00 - 01:41 AM Can anybody tell me the source of this phrase? I'm John Jacob Schmidt,During the five summers that I was a camp counselor in Wisconsin in the 1960's, an unusual man named Erv Kasian drove up from Chicago every week to spend a couple of days at the camp. I can't recall him doing much, other than relaxing; but he more than earned his keep by telling his incredibly corny stories at our campfires. The Erv story I liked best was the once about John Jacob Schmidt, an early settler who encountered all sorts of difficulties in the New World. Erv would describe each situation in great detail, and John Jacob Schmidt would always come out on top, saying, I'm John Jacob Schmidt,Finally, John Jacob got himself into a situation that looked almost impossible, He was captured by some villains (probably Indians, maybe pirates) who had all sorts of tortures for their captives. Jonh Jacob endured them all cheerfully. At last, the captors said that John Jacob could go free and marry the daughter of the Chief Villain if he endured one more torture, which nobody had ever survived. The Chief Villain presented Schmidt with two potato chips, chips that were harder than the hardest steel. Everyone who had been forced to bite these potato chips before had broken all their teeth, and had died the death. John Jacob cheerfully accepted the chips from the Chief Villain, and gobbled the chips with gusto. The villains where aghast, but they freed John and married him off to the Beautiful Maiden. When asked how he accomplished this marvelous feat, Schmidt replied, I'm John Jacob Schmidt,Erv was a marvelous storyteller, but there was something about this story that makes me think he got a good part of it from somewhere else. Have any of you heard of this story, or of John Jacob Schmidt (not Jingelheimer), or of the phrase? I searched the Web and found a few uses of the phrase, but nothing that gave indication of the source of the phrase. Does anybody have an idea where it comes from? For that matter, is there anybody here who happens to have known Erv? I think he used to work at the Boys Club in Chicago. He was quite a guy - even let me use the Honda 50 motorbike he kept stored at the camp. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: Sandy Paton Date: 03 Mar 00 - 04:13 PM Well, Joe, I can't really help you concerning the "John Jacob Schmidt" recitations, but Grant Rogers, "Songmaker of the Catskills," included the "I'm rough, I'm tough, and I'm hard to bluff" phrase in a song he made up titled "Bulls-Eye Bill." It's on his Folk-Legacy album, now available only as a custom cassette: C-27. You've heard Grant singing "Granny's Old Arm Chair" on the new Ballads and Songs of Tradition CD. Pretty good for an old construction and quarry-worker, eh? Sandy |
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Subject: RE: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: Joe Offer Date: 17 Mar 00 - 02:53 AM I'm not likely to give up easily on this one. I swear there has to be a story behind the phrase. I don't think the root phrase includes John Jacob Schmidt, but I think it includes the "used to many hardships" phrase - and that particular phrase makes me think there has to be a distinct source. I did find a reference to a song here (click) that includes a big part of the phrase: Title: Waukegan cowboy.I did find one quote that included the "hardships" last week, but now I can't find it. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: GUEST,Bill in Alabama Date: 17 Mar 00 - 07:15 AM I'm still looking, Joe. |
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Subject: RE: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: GUEST,John Gray / Australia. Date: 17 Mar 00 - 07:32 AM Well, I don't know about "rough and tough and hard to bluff" but I'm the man they couldn't "root, shoot or electrocute" !!!!!! JG / FME |
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Subject: RE: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: Bill D Date: 17 Mar 00 - 11:03 PM funny how in folk music words & names get re-used...I figured this song would be in the Database, I have no idea how the Schmidt boys are related. |
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Subject: RE: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: Jim Dixon Date: 23 Nov 09 - 10:06 AM References to the phrase "rough, tough, and hard to bluff" are surprisingly rare, and mostly recent. These are the oldest I could find: "Then there were some from Waukegan, who were 'rough, and tough, and hard to bluff' who expected to win six or seven championships for Hillsdale...." --from The Winona (Hillsdale, Mich.: Hillsdale College, 1925). "Bogie (that's what everyone calls him) may be rough, tough, and hard to bluff before a camera, but, face to face, he's pleasant and friendly...." --from The American Magazine, 1943. "They are the prisoners who must prove 'rough and tough and hard to bluff.'" --from The Journal of Criminal Law, Criminology and Police Science, 1954. "...Read all about it/We've got a team/And we're proud to shout it/We're rough, we're tough/We're hard to bluff/Conesville Vikings/Strut your stuff..." --from Cheerleader Handbook by Carolyn Frances Bruce (Fond du Lac, Wis.: National Sports Co., 1960). |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: Amos Date: 23 Nov 09 - 10:27 AM I've heard that tale, or one of the same general pattern but without the John Jacob Schmidt, whose name is also used in a children's song with the middle name Jingleheimer IIRC. But I don't remember what name WAS used in the version I heard orally, many decades ago. Sorry I can't be more help but at least you know it's not just you, Joe! A |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 23 Nov 09 - 01:34 PM Appears in Australia- "Economists, being the rough and tough and hard to bluff people we are..." In a Senate paper, Parliament of Australia. A couple of websites include the phrase as "something their grandfathers said," but no dates. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: catspaw49 Date: 23 Nov 09 - 01:45 PM Jim, you are really amazing man........You do these unfound and often ancient threads and need some sort of award! I have none except my congratulations for a fantastic job! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: Amos Date: 23 Nov 09 - 02:11 PM Title: Waukegan cowboy. First Line: I'm rough and tough and hard to bluff my trigger finger's jerky Chorus: I'm the Waukegan cowboy take it from me, you can see I'm at home on the lone prairie Music by: Roth, Howard H. Words by: Roth, Howard H. P/P/D: Clearwater, FL : Howard H. Roth & Co. Inc., c1947. Location: SPC, KIRK PS 1945-1947 IN a book called Out West, Dayton Duncan (in around 2000) meets a man in his sixties who tells him that in his youth he was rough and tough and hard to bluff, but he isn't anymore. (no date given) The Cardinal School Song (Sing), tune of Minnesota Rouser Fayette High School, Hats off to Thee! We're all for you Fight on to Victory. Make a touchdown. Run up the score. Rough and tough and hard to bluff. Fayette High School got the stuff. Fight on for Fayette High. (Cheer) Go, Cardinals, Go! Go, Cardinals, Go! Hit 'em high. Hit 'em low. Go, Cardinals, Go! (Repeat song.) |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: GUEST,Daniel Date: 03 Apr 10 - 10:57 PM I'm not sure of the source of the phrase, but I may be able to shed some more light on Erv Kasian. In the early 1970s I lived in a rural part of north central Illinois and whenever we took a field trip into Chicago, the school would hire a charter bus company to drive us. Every time we started the trip, the bus driver (who was always the same guy) would tell the exact joke mentioned at the beginning of the thread. It makes me wonder if the bus driver was Erv. BTW-Is this thread really 10 years old? |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: Joe Offer Date: 04 Apr 10 - 03:28 AM Yes, this thread is really ten years old, and I'm still wondering about old Erv. He had a kind of squarish face with scrunched-up features, and he wore dark-rimmed glasses - a very unusual-looking fellow. His stories were very corny, but kids loved them - because Erv loved those stories. Erv kept a Honda 50 at camp, and asked me to watch over it - and in return, I got to ride it. Wow! Erv also told a story about an adventurer named Shortcake, who ended up marrying an Indian princess. After a number of adventures and misadventures, Shortcake died. The chief asked, "Who bury Shortcake?" The princess answered, "Squaw bury Shortcake." And then there was the Indian chief's son, Falling Rock. Falling Rock went out to seek the secret of life, and travelled all over North America (giving the storyteller the chance to give a geography lesson). But Falling Rock does not return, so the chief sends out braves to find him (repeating the geography lesson at least twice). And to this day, they are still looking for him - I'm sure you've seen the signs: "Watch for Falling Rock." Come to think of it, that "Falling Rock" story might not have come from Erv - but if he had heard it, he would have told it. But Daniel, you really did hear the line, "Used to many hard chips"? Gee, that must have been old Erv. He was a really ancient guy - must have been at least 40.... -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: Rowan Date: 16 Apr 10 - 12:08 AM To my ears, "rough and tough and hard to bluff and used to many hardships." rings the sorts of bells that the chorus to Barnacle Bill the sailor also rings; "I'm old and rough and dirty and tough," cried Barnacle Bill the sailor. If one were trying to entertain polite company and avoid the earthy activities of Barnacle Bill, Joe's phrase would just about scan similarly and also allow the same accumulative narrative. Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: Artful Codger Date: 16 Apr 10 - 08:37 PM To me, "rough and tough and hard to bluff" reminds me of cowboy boasts like "I'm a wild wolf and it's my night to howl!" Knew a little girl who used to say, "I'm rough and tough and ladylike." |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: Jim Dixon Date: 23 Apr 10 - 01:44 AM I once heard someone describe a certain toddler as "rough and tough and hard to diaper." |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: GUEST Date: 09 Sep 10 - 09:01 AM Joe, Erv Kasian worked at Camp Waupaca For Boys in Waupaca Wisconsin from 1970 - 1979. WHile I cannot help with any lyrics, or any stories, I can tell you that we have located Erv in a military cemetery near Milwaukee. Here's a link to the story: http://www.campwaupaca.com/Erv1.html |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: Joe Offer Date: 09 Sep 10 - 06:24 PM Thank you very much for the information about Erv. He was a terrific storyteller, and a good man. I worked with him at Camp Villa Jerome in Hubertus, Wisconsin, from 1966-70. He worked two or three days a week, and I think he was in Chicago the rest of the time. I had the impression he had worked at Villa Jerome many years before I was there, but maybe not. I think he had also worked at a Boys Club camp near Oconomowoc, Wisconsin. Erv was generous to a fault, an unbelievably kindhearted man. I don't think there ever lived another man with such a corny sense of humor. Rest in peace, Erv. It's nice to finally learn a little of what happened to you. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: GUEST Date: 02 Nov 10 - 04:17 PM I knew Irv..........I also worked at the camp for 4 summers late 50s to early 60s.........remember the honda 50......used to borrow it from Irv and ride at around the lake to Wally and Bea"s tavern. Larry Clore |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: Joe Offer Date: 02 Nov 10 - 04:25 PM Larry, send me an e-mail, and let's see who else we knew in common. Joe Offer joe@mudcat.org (boating instructor at Villa Jerome 1966-70) |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: GUEST,Heather Date: 06 Nov 10 - 11:01 PM So, Joe, did you ever find the original source of this saying? My mother used to say it to me every time I complained about anything, whether it was raking the leaves, doing the dishes, or getting dumped by my high school boyfriend: "Well, Heather," she'd say, "you've gotta be rough and tough and hard to bluff and used to many hardships." It used to drive me crazy, but eventually it became a sort of family motto that we now repeat to one another -- often in unison -- whenever the situation requires. I'd love to know where it comes from! (I did ask my mother, and all she can tell me is that her mother used to say it to her, too, which pushes it back at least to the 1940s.) |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: Joe Offer Date: 06 Nov 10 - 11:42 PM Hi, Heather- I heard the phrase from only one man, storyteller Erv Kasian from Chicago. Through this thread, I learned what happened to my old friend Erv. But when I heard this story when I was in my late teens, I wasn't smart enough to ask Erv for background information. The folklorist in me didn't come alive until I was in my 40s. I heard this story five times a summer for five years, and I suppose I might have gotten tired of it. Gee, what I'd give to hear Erv tell it once more. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: GUEST,MarkF Date: 07 Nov 10 - 10:45 AM "Rough and tough and used to hardships" has been my signature (if annoying) story-telling party piece for a couple of decades. But my version is quite different from Erv's. The hero is Ivan Ivanovich, a poor but honest nineteenth-century Russian boy who faces a host of Old World difficulties: jailed by the Tsarist police, deported in chains to Siberia, captured en route by Cossacks, then by Caucasian bandits, re-captured by the secret police and goes to the salt mines. Etc. Finally he escapes and after a few more misadventures makes his way across the Pacific from Vladivostok to San Francisco as a cabin boy on a clipper ship. They send him up in the rigging to the crow's nest, and a terrific storm hits... The story is told in broken English with a strong Russian accent. After each adventure, one worse than the last, the reprise is -- "But this did not bother poor Ivan Ivanovich, for he was rough and tough and used to hardships!" The story can go on for half an hour, and (mercifully) ends when the great storm breaks the tall ship's mast and Ivan Ivanovich comes crashing down to the wooden deck, surely to meet a sorry end: "But this did not bother poor Ivan Ivanovich, for he was rough and tough and used to ... hard (pause) ships." [Groans]. Does seem like it must be related to Erv's! I've never been to summer camp in Illinois, and for the life of me I can't recall where I got it. Mark |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: GUEST,Heather Date: 14 Nov 10 - 11:09 PM Wow, that's a great version, Mark -- it seems stories with bad puns are universal! Ha! Joe, my mother was raised in Iowa, and what with Erv being a Chicagoan, there may be a Midwestern origin for this phrase....but I guess we may never know! Heather |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: Joe Offer Date: 15 Nov 10 - 01:30 AM I think that's the basis of a great story: a very simple plot that lets the storyteller improvise as he/she goes along. I haven't found as many of those as I'd like, but I've had fun with them. You can tell the story over and over again, and never tell the same story. But Erv told the story the same way every time, almost word-for-word. After five years, I almost had it memorized - but it didn't really "work" for me, so I never told it. But I'd sure like to hear Erv tell it one more time. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: JohnInKansas Date: 15 Nov 10 - 02:05 PM Some time ago I worked with fellow whose prior job had been with a major US paper manufacturer. He related that anyone travelling on company business was expected to bring home "samples," especially of the toilet papers found at various places around the world. Documentation of the time and place of collection were of course required. As he described it, they would have "group sessions" where the various samples would be passed around for examination and discussion. He reported that at one session someone described "a British sample" as "Real John Wayne Paper." "It's rough and tough and don't take sh*t off of anybody." About a decade later the "John Wayne Paper" description had become fairly well known, but his story was the first place I heard it, ca. 1959. John |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: ScoutingDad Date: 06 Dec 10 - 07:16 AM I heard this story for the first time at a canoeing camp called Keewaydin, summer 1969. The main character was Palooski Kowalski, and he was abandoned by his parents the day he was born. He faced horrifying situations every day (but he was rough, tough and used to hardships). The story went on for three days until we heard about the "hard ships." About five years ago, I told the story at a scout troop campout - in my version, Palooski Kowalski was one of our scouts "a few years ago." Every year since then, I've started the story and the scouts finish it, based on their "personal recollections." "I remember Palooski - especially his missing ear. He told me that it was bitten off by a bear when we was lost in the Yukon. I asked him if it hurt, but he told me that he was rough, tough and used to hardships." Everyone takes a turn and when he runs out of ideas, the next scout takes over. Only the new scouts don't know the story - or the punch line. And they are always the most enthusiastic tale tellers the next year. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: GUEST,Sandy in Pinebur, MS Date: 12 Feb 11 - 08:29 PM I heard this joke while at Florida State University in 1961. It took place on a ship and the punch line had a seaman falling from the mast and saying when he hit the deck "that's alright, I'm rough and tough and hard to bluff and used to hard..ships." I couldn't remember the whole joke though and that's why I googled the punch line and found your thread. The version above about Ivan Ivanovich sounds about right, though I don't remember the name or early details in the story, just the punch line. So I was glad to see the Ivan version. Now my curiosity is satisfied and I can tell my husband the whole joke. I remember as a college freshman, I thought it was histerical. Keep smiling, Sandy |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: GUEST,Ann Date: 06 Apr 11 - 09:29 AM My husband and I are now 50-something, and trying to collect these great stories. He used to be able to recite the Ivan Ivanovich version straight through very well...but as time goes on...Well, I was just wondering if Mark F would be willing to write the entire verse? |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: GUEST,Mark F Date: 09 May 11 - 01:47 AM I'm willing -- as soon as I find a spare couple of hours! Check the thread again later this summer. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: GUEST,Tommy CDR Date: 16 Sep 11 - 02:46 PM I don't know about the origin but the line "I'm rough, tough, hard to bluff" occurs at the beginning of the 1958 rockabilly track 'Bad Bad Boy' by Bobby Lollar. It's a great example of the genre and the line fits well with the song. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: GUEST,Pruett, Gary - Cedar City, UT Date: 26 Jan 12 - 10:09 AM Joe, A witty younger brother, who was so adept with rapid retorts and 'come-backs' that we dubbed him 'the fastest lip in the west' told a similar story using the "rough, tough, hard to bluff and used to many hardships" phrase except that the main character was a guy named Gilbert, and after overcoming many hardships and enduring many adventures (all of which end in that phrase) the last scenario finds Gilbert serving in the Navy on a destroyer in war-time. Gilbert is assigned to watch for enemy submarines and is stationed 60 ft above the ship in the 'crows-nest'. He is clinging for dear life to the lip of the 'crows-nest' as the ship is being tossed to and fro in heavy seas, when suddenly an enormous wave heaves the ship so violently to one side that Gilbert is hurdled out of his perch and falls to the steel deck below. But that's OK, he is unharmed because Gilbert is, "rough, tough, hard-to-bluff and used to hard ships". He left the tone of his voice just hanging, like all the times before, and it took us just and instant to figure out that that was the end of his tale. It was a great story and I wish I could find it in its entirety. It would be fun to tell the kids when we go camping. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: GUEST,Kegan Mahon Date: 03 Oct 14 - 08:27 PM This evening, my 91-year old grandmother used this phrase describing my grandfather. However. if I recall, she said he was "rough and tough and hard to cuff." She said that was "as the old saying goes." She was born in 1923, and I'll ask her where she heard it, but any time between the 40s - 60s seems to be the average. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: GUEST,Guest Date: 06 Jun 16 - 08:30 PM I've heard the john Jacob version in scouting in the 60's But a drinking bud would say this when tanked:
But easy with the women. There's more old drunks than there are old doctors, So I believe I'll have another round! |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: Joe_F Date: 07 Jun 16 - 05:56 PM The line "more old drunkards than old doctors" goes back to Rabelais. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: GUEST,Ed0882 Date: 09 Feb 19 - 10:35 PM I believe Ernest P. Worrell (Jim Varney) said that at some point on his show “Hey Vern, it’s Ernest.” He put his own original spin on it: “I’m rough, tough, hard to bluff, and no cream puff! No whata mean?” |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: GUEST Date: 27 Aug 19 - 11:00 PM My husband and his friends have used the phrase, "I'm rough and tough and hard to bluff, and I wear my diapers low" for as long as I've known them, about 40 years. I was wondering about the origin of the phrase, which is how I ended up here, on this nearly 20 year old thread! But I'm beginning to think the diapers part of the phrase is unique to this particular group of guys. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: Joe Offer Date: 27 Aug 19 - 11:33 PM I dunno, but it sure is a good story.... |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: Lighter Date: 28 Aug 19 - 08:00 AM Macon Daily Telegraph (July 2, 1916), p. 15: "Company D, of Columbus [Ga.], brought an innovation into camp yesterday with some of this 'rah, rah' college stuff. Their yell runs like this: Rah, rah, rah, who are we? We're the boys of Company D, Rough and tough, hard to bluff, Always fighting and never get enough." Plain Dealer (Cleveland) (Feb. 14, 1977), p. 35: "Loving Lines to Valentines ... Tom I'm rough and and I'm tough And if that's not enough I love you baby And that's no stuff. Bebe" The version I heard (once) in the early '60s was "'Im rough and I'm tough and I know my stuff." |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: GUEST,Starship Date: 28 Aug 19 - 09:50 AM From 1974. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: Lighter Date: 28 Aug 19 - 12:16 PM Thanks for sharing, Starship. "I'm rough and I'm tough and I take no guff." It just popped into my head. I don't think I've ever actually come across it.... "Hard to bluff" suggests that successful bluffing is difficult but possible. "Take no guff" covers that loophole. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: GUEST,Starship Date: 29 Aug 19 - 09:34 AM Thanks, Lighter. Guff was used where I grew up, often in the verbal exchanges leading to an altercation: 'Give me any guff and I'll beat the snot out of you.' That was sixty or so years back. Interesting how words fall from usage. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: Joe Offer Date: 18 Dec 19 - 05:30 PM I think it's fun to refresh this thread every once in a while. I've read some great stories here, but I still don't think we've got to the original origin of "rough and tough and hard to bluff and used to many hardships." |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Rough and tough and hard to bluff From: GUEST,Marie Castellano Date: 23 Aug 21 - 09:33 PM The version I’ve always heard is: He’s rough and tough and wears his diapers low. (I assumed it was a put-down.). |
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