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BS: Dylan is vastly overrated

GUEST,Greg 03 Mar 00 - 03:14 PM
Mooh 03 Mar 00 - 03:24 PM
catspaw49 03 Mar 00 - 03:25 PM
GUEST,Greg 03 Mar 00 - 03:26 PM
Steve Latimer 03 Mar 00 - 03:28 PM
Mooh 03 Mar 00 - 03:31 PM
GUEST,Bob Dylan 03 Mar 00 - 03:32 PM
Steve Latimer 03 Mar 00 - 03:38 PM
GUEST,Greg 03 Mar 00 - 03:44 PM
GUEST, Bryant 03 Mar 00 - 03:45 PM
GUEST,Stephen Foster Collins 03 Mar 00 - 03:48 PM
GUEST,The youngest BOB fan 03 Mar 00 - 03:53 PM
Lonesome EJ 03 Mar 00 - 04:10 PM
sophocleese 03 Mar 00 - 04:16 PM
Rick Fielding 03 Mar 00 - 04:18 PM
Amos 03 Mar 00 - 04:19 PM
BlueJay 03 Mar 00 - 04:20 PM
Lonesome EJ 03 Mar 00 - 04:29 PM
GUEST,SteveO 03 Mar 00 - 04:35 PM
Jon Freeman 03 Mar 00 - 04:47 PM
GUEST,village idiot 03 Mar 00 - 04:53 PM
Amos 03 Mar 00 - 04:53 PM
Froodo 03 Mar 00 - 04:57 PM
BlueJay 03 Mar 00 - 05:02 PM
Malcolm Douglas 03 Mar 00 - 05:24 PM
Jacob B 03 Mar 00 - 05:55 PM
Peter T. 03 Mar 00 - 06:08 PM
Bert 03 Mar 00 - 06:15 PM
Amos 03 Mar 00 - 06:16 PM
catspaw49 03 Mar 00 - 07:45 PM
DonMeixner 03 Mar 00 - 08:22 PM
GUEST,the biggest BOB and HANSON fan 03 Mar 00 - 08:45 PM
GUEST,LDB 03 Mar 00 - 08:49 PM
Pontiac Joe 03 Mar 00 - 09:02 PM
Mbo 03 Mar 00 - 09:05 PM
GUEST,Andy Mac 03 Mar 00 - 09:35 PM
M. Ted (inactive) 03 Mar 00 - 09:39 PM
GUEST 03 Mar 00 - 10:54 PM
GUEST,pastorpest 03 Mar 00 - 11:13 PM
Jon Freeman 03 Mar 00 - 11:26 PM
BK 04 Mar 00 - 12:20 AM
BK 04 Mar 00 - 12:25 AM
Sabra 04 Mar 00 - 12:51 AM
Arkie 04 Mar 00 - 01:41 AM
GUEST,Skipjack who is Greg, but not this Greg 04 Mar 00 - 05:29 AM
GUEST,Bob Dylan Too 04 Mar 00 - 07:42 AM
Ringer 04 Mar 00 - 08:22 AM
GUEST,The youngest BOB and HANSON fan 04 Mar 00 - 09:51 AM
Clinton Hammond2 04 Mar 00 - 09:58 AM
zander (inactive) 04 Mar 00 - 10:18 AM
BK 04 Mar 00 - 11:48 AM
Troll 04 Mar 00 - 12:05 PM
GUEST 04 Mar 00 - 12:11 PM
Pontiac Joe 04 Mar 00 - 01:18 PM
Mooh 04 Mar 00 - 01:39 PM
Paul G. 04 Mar 00 - 02:32 PM
Caitrin 04 Mar 00 - 02:34 PM
Mbo 04 Mar 00 - 03:31 PM
GUEST,The youngest BOB and HANSON fan 04 Mar 00 - 05:10 PM
Gypsy 04 Mar 00 - 05:40 PM
Ely 04 Mar 00 - 05:41 PM
Art Thieme 04 Mar 00 - 05:47 PM
Mbo 04 Mar 00 - 05:59 PM
sophocleese 04 Mar 00 - 06:18 PM
Peter T. 05 Mar 00 - 10:38 AM
The youngest BOB fan 05 Mar 00 - 04:37 PM
sophocleese 05 Mar 00 - 04:44 PM
GUEST,The Beanster 05 Mar 00 - 05:02 PM
The youngest BOB fan 05 Mar 00 - 05:38 PM
GUEST,The Beanster 05 Mar 00 - 06:10 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 05 Mar 00 - 06:23 PM
Troll 06 Mar 00 - 12:09 AM
Spider Tom 06 Mar 00 - 05:22 AM
GUEST,Regis Philbin 06 Mar 00 - 09:36 AM
GeorgeH 06 Mar 00 - 09:44 AM
Amos 06 Mar 00 - 01:30 PM
Troll 06 Mar 00 - 02:40 PM
Amos 06 Mar 00 - 05:54 PM
GUEST, Botticelli's Niece 06 Mar 00 - 06:43 PM
GUEST,The Beanster 06 Mar 00 - 07:06 PM
Froodo 06 Mar 00 - 07:48 PM
GUEST,The Beanster 06 Mar 00 - 07:55 PM
GUEST,Botticelli's Niece 06 Mar 00 - 08:58 PM
bob jr 10 Aug 01 - 03:58 PM
Shields Folk 10 Aug 01 - 04:12 PM
radriano 10 Aug 01 - 06:06 PM
GUEST,Me 10 Aug 01 - 06:27 PM
Joe_F 10 Aug 01 - 07:09 PM
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Subject: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: GUEST,Greg
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 03:14 PM

Anyone agree with me that dylan is not nearly as talented and great as he's given credit for being? Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Mooh
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 03:24 PM

Nope. Was I/were we supposed to? Sure, his voice is maybe not the most attractive to some ears, though it doesn't bother me, but the songwritng is fantastic. I will agree that if we all agreed on everything, it would be a boring world. Kinda like a world without temptation. Over-rated how exactly? This will be an interesting line of conversation! Mooh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 03:25 PM

He's written a lot of songs...some are tremendous and some are complete crap. He has been very prolific and that's inevitable. The effect he had on the "Folk" scene and pop music cannot be underrated. Is he overrated? I have no idea. Was he a major influence and did he write some good songs? Sure. For many, it was a Dylan song that brought them to the folk-like genre and sometimes on to true folk/trad music.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: GUEST,Greg
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 03:26 PM

Over-rated in that his songwriting is really not very impressive at all, and calling him a poet, is very degrading to "poets" Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 03:28 PM

You'll get several people to agree and more to disagree with you on this one.

Then start a thread substituting Seeger, Leadbally, Robert Johnson, Beethoven, Mozart, Jesus etc, etc. for Dylan with the same results.

This has been done to death on the Mudcat and is rather silly given his contributions to music over the years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Mooh
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 03:31 PM

Well Greg, I disagree, but I wonder, were you sent here to stir up shit? Dylan has stirred up some shit too, in his time. A coincidence? I don't think so....Can you be a little more desciptive?


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: GUEST,Bob Dylan
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 03:32 PM

Personally, I think that Greg is vastly overrarted, particularly in his own mind, as a music critic.

BD


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 03:38 PM

Dylan fan baiting is overrated, and I for one am out of this one.

Final word on his 'poetry.' When asked if he was a poet, he replied, "I'm just a guitar picker."


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: GUEST,Greg
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 03:44 PM

Well his guitar picking is nothing to brag about either


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: GUEST, Bryant
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 03:45 PM

Dylan's guitar playing is, generally speaking, nothing to write home about and his voice sure ain't pretty but in my humble opinion, he's probably the best songwriter/lyricist . . . well, ever. I can't think of too many who even compare.

If I want to listen to fantastic guitar playing I'll play a Doc Watson or John Hurt CD. If I want a pretty voice there are lots to chose from. But when it come to words . . . In a soldier's stance I aimed my hand
At the mongrel dogs who teach.
Fearing not that I'd become my enemy
In the instant that I preach.
My pathway led by confusion boats
Mutiny from stern to bow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

I love it.

Bryant


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: GUEST,Stephen Foster Collins
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 03:48 PM

I could outwright bob any day. By the time he's been as dead as me as long as me, he'll be lucky to have as many of his songs known as mine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: GUEST,The youngest BOB fan
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 03:53 PM

Dear Greg- it's so nice of you to start on such a controversal subject. My opinon is this: I love Bob Dylan... the whole package... his voice, his lyrics, his "guitar picking". If you don't share that same opinion then fine with me... it's your loss. When your music has been around for 40 years and you win some grammies, then maybe you can talk about Bob Dylan being untalented, okie dokie¿? I'm sure Bob Dylan must be doing something right...

**Bryant**- I love the song you quoted "My Back Pages"


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 04:10 PM

Bob Dylan? Is that Jacob's Dad?


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: sophocleese
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 04:16 PM

Personally I'm not a fan of Dylan and therefore I find idolization of him bizarre, but I'm sure that other people find some of my musical tastes equally bizarre.

I'm not sure if asking this question is necessarily an attempt to stir the coals. Its probably better to assume its an honest question and answer it, if you wish, as such.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 04:18 PM

Awww c'mon. His guitar playing on the first album is EXCELLENT! If you only discovered him after he'd become an incoherent mumblemouth than you missed out on some good trad playing. Gotta say though, when I heard his "born again" stuff, I was glad to be an agnostic!

Rick


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Amos
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 04:19 PM

Tell you what, bright-eyes...you take up song writing for a living, one guitar and one suitcase to start with, and let us know how it went. We'll even put you on the web-radio if you're good, and help start your career.

It takes a certain amount of guts to put a pen to deep subjects, work out an honest and decently forned song, and stand it up in front of thousands of people and let them know it is your art.

To do that successfully takes more guts, art, smarts and luck that I have, even if my voice is better than Mr Z's, which is arguable. So I decline to subscribe to the criticality which you propose, cuz I frankly admire what he has pulled off. As well as being sometimes touched and often highly entertained by his musical talent, regardless of his technical skills in voice or instrument.

As for tyhe argument that his poetry is an offense to poets, let me just remark that I come from a long line of them, some of them renowned and all of them aesthetically sensitive, and my sainteds mither was one of the first people to buy Dylan's first album. I don't even know how she found out about it, but she loved it, raucous and all.

It is very easy to get overly precious about intellectual poetry and forget the roots of song. But it isn't good for you to do so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: BlueJay
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 04:20 PM

GUEST Stephan Foster Write- So you think you can out-write Dyalan any day of the week? I've never heard of you, so could you give me an example of one of your songs that i know, or that my parents would also know? Not to mention my children. If you are really that good, I wish you luck. The world needs more great songwriters like Dylan. Maybe you need a new agent. But at least you could learn how to spell, and construct a proper sentence before posting such a brag.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 04:29 PM

Interesting about Dylan's bad voice. It was so distinctively bad it's been copied by the likes of Roger McGuinn, Tom Petty, Mark Knopfler and at least a score of others.

If you are one of those who see Mr Dylan as a god, yep he's overrated. If you see him as a mediocre poet and half-assed songwriter, give me some examples of someone you think is outstanding.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: GUEST,SteveO
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 04:35 PM

The truth be known Dylan is not in the least overated. He is in fact the prime influence on many who are overated, Bono and Tom Petty imediatly come to mind. I don't even think Steve Earle who once was quoted as saying, "Townes Van Sant is the greatest songwriter to ever live and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table with my cowboy boots on and say it", would agree that he is overated. Allen Ginsburg, the beat poet had always considered him to be the "Great American Poet". In reference to his guita playing al he needed was two chord and the truth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 04:47 PM

Dylan is not overrated by me. Take that however you please.

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: GUEST,village idiot
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 04:53 PM

Harry Chapin, Eric Andersen, Joni Mitchell, Phil Ochs, HAnson all beat dylan at writing


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Amos
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 04:53 PM

OK, the truth shall out sooner or later... Greg IS Bob Dylan, doing a market poll...


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Froodo
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 04:57 PM

Dylan plays great guitar...sings great...his songs are outstanding. His ego large.

I think Dylan is to me what Guthrie was to him. I read on a web site somewhere that you're really a true Dylan fan if you think Neil Young was a wannabe. I found that incredibly funny, and I'm not proud to say, a bit true. Don't get me wrong, I love Neil too, but I'm my humble opinion Dylan is a musical/songwriting genius far above anyone that's alive today...maybe in the entire 1900s. Sure he's written some lame songs, but even his bad songs kick the s#it out of the one's I write...


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: BlueJay
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 05:02 PM

I didn't know it was a contest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 05:24 PM

BlueJay:

Stephen Collins Foster wrote, among many other songs, "Hard Times Come Again No More", "Camptown Races", "Jeannie With The Light Brown Hair", "My Old Kentucky Home", "Old Folks At Home" etc.  In his day he was, I believe, the best-selling songwriter of all time.  Of course, he died in 1864 (aged only 37), so I suspect that the message you took exception to was posted on his behalf by somebody wanting to make a point (and not typing very carefully)!  I don't know that it's a particularly useful comparison, though.

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Jacob B
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 05:55 PM

Can we move this away from "I like/don't like him"? Specifically, I'd like to know what Bryant (or anyone else) likes about the stanza that was quoted from "My Back Pages."


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Peter T.
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 06:08 PM

I think Dylan is a very interesting case. As Catspaw says, he has written an immense amount of crap, maybe more bad stuff in relation to good stuff than anyone except Irving Berlin (which is interesting in itself). He got an idea from Rimbaud and Walt Whitman and the surrealists that constantly writing songs -- at one stage he was writing a couple of hundred every month or two -- was the way to tap your creativity. And don't edit.
If you look at his early songs, almost all of them are marred here and there by cheap rhymes, stream of consciousness that is dreary, "deep" meanings that aren't, and so on. And then there was all that really seriously dreary born again period. And yet, out of that swamp arose 30 or so songs that are really fine works of poetry; and some songs that are going to be around long after we are gone. So in one sense his original strategy was correct, overall.
But the listener is forced to deal with the fact that Dylan is often overrated and underrated in the same album, and sometimes in the same song! I don't know anyone whose work is so variable, in part because of his refusal to edit himself. How to cope with that is a challenge, because a poet like Coleridge, who produced 5 great poems and immense amounts of dreck, is remembered in anthologies and histories as a great poet because all you ever see is the 5 great poems. In Dylan's case the selectivity is taking a lot longer to happen, maybe because of the nature of records vs. books.
Is Dylan the great poet? No. Allan Ginsburg is a greater poet by far (he was being humble that day). But is Dylan a poet. Yes. Did he write great songs. Yes. IMHO. (And something is happening, but you don't know what it is, do you, Mr. Jones....)yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Bert
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 06:15 PM

I think he's pretty good, maybe not as good as our Amos, but - pretty good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Amos
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 06:16 PM

The voice of intellect in the forest of the Bandersnatch! Hi, Peter!


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 07:45 PM

How the hell do you do that?

Bandersnatch

Interested in lessons and curious.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: DonMeixner
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 08:22 PM

I like some Dylan songs, I don't like others. He had a more lasting effect on popular music than Michael Jackson or Lou Reed ever will. I don't imagine my grand kids will be singing Thriller or Walk on the Wild Side at camp. But Blowin' In the Wind became immediately a folk standard .

he is far from my favorite of the age and genre but I'd be a fool not to accept and honor his place and influence in the field of music I love.

Don


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: GUEST,the biggest BOB and HANSON fan
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 08:45 PM

Dear Guest_Village Idiot-

I love Hanson... I have a little crush on the middle one. And although I think their songwriting abilities are quite advanced for this day and age, I could never compare their songwriting to Bob Dylan's. I would be much interested in knowing how you can compare the two very different *talented* songwriters, and come to the conclusion that HANSON writes better lyrics than BOB DYLAN...


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: GUEST,LDB
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 08:49 PM

I wonder what some of you who don't care for Mr. D might think of him if you could hear at least half of the 800 - 1000 songs that he wrote that never got heard beyond a few friends... There just might be one in there you like!


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Pontiac Joe
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 09:02 PM

Not sure about the overrated,underrated bit ,but if it weren't for Dylan I might not be strumming

Joe


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Mbo
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 09:05 PM

True enough, Youngest Bob Fan. I remember when I first head "Mmmbop" a few years ago, I was just an 18 year old boy who had never heard "pop" music before. I couldn't get it out of my head...I had never heard anything like it! DON'T THROW THINGS AT ME!!! I think radio has a lot to do with people's feelings about Hanson and others. Lot's of people who don't like them say "yeah, that's that stupid stuff they play a million times a day on the radio." That's why I stopped listening to the radio. Radio often turns a what is a GREAT song when you first hear it, into something you never want to hear again. I think that's unfair to me as a listener and unfair to the performers. I'm sure if Hanson was a little less well-known, and wasn't played on the radio--just like folk isn't played on the radio, people would enjoy it more. Now that I've broken free from radio, I'm free to discover new music, no matter what the genre, and never be in danger of having it grow annoying to hear. BTW has anyone really studied the actual lyrics of "Mmmbop"? They are quite profound, believe it or not. I also think that their song "Weird" is one of the most beautiful modern songs I have heard. There's my opinion!

--Mbo (MUSIC FOREVER! NO MORE PREJUDICES!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: GUEST,Andy Mac
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 09:35 PM

I think Bob Dylan created himself & was a genius. For those of us who lived before he came on the scene it's clear that everything changed after he made his presence known. He more than anyone put words above the melody. Now everybody's a half a poet! But he began it. I think his Blonde on Blonde stage was haughty & cruel. But many geniuses have dark temperaments. I liked him & yet I didn't like him (yep). He is what he is, ever-changing——but perhaps a bit too caustic to be really "liked" as a person. But he's a definite Hall of Famer in the American music scene. There wouldn't've been the likes of a John Prine, w/o first Bob Dylan......


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 09:39 PM

Doesn't matter how you feel about Dylan, you can't ignore him--he's the man who put Tin Pan Alley out of business and created the whole idea of singer/songwriters--There was a period of Twenty years or so that no one ever talked about Cole Porter or Irving Berlin, or Larry Hart when they had "serious" discussions about American songwriters--

Now there names are back, so I suppose it's going to be fashionable in some circles to dismiss Dylan--

One of the things that people tend to miss about Dylan is that a lot of his songs are tremendously funny--He wrote parodies of folksongs and blues songs, as well as caricatures of just about every aspect of life--His surrealistic juxtapositions of images is still fresh and fascinating--he is like Hieronymous Bosch at Disneyland--

One of the best Halloween parties I ever heard of, was one where people came dressed as characters from Dylan songs--

As to the future, can anyone believe that future generations of humanity will not be with preoccupied verses such as: "They've selling postcards of the hanging, and painting the passports brown, the beauty parlor's filled with sailors, and the circus is in town."


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 10:54 PM

There were lots of people before bob who wrote and performed their own stuff so to give him credit for starting the singer songwriter movement is like giving Hiter credit for being the first anti-jewish person.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: GUEST,pastorpest
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 11:13 PM

Is Dylan overrated? The answer my friend, is blowin' in the wind, which will still be played and sung decades and decades after this thread is forgotten.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 11:26 PM

So will 3 blind mice be played for decades and decades after this thread is forgotten...

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: BK
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 12:20 AM

Wow! three blind mice... I love it!! As for dylan & poetic ability.. He did some great songs, blatantly stole some other stuff.. (for example check out the trad song "Leavin' of Liverpool" & see if it ain't familiar), & had a lot of influence.. that means something - I'm not always sure what, tho, or how positive.. I always thought a white city boy who never picked cotton - did he ever really get his hands dirty? - more than a bit incongruous, singing some of his songs, given their topics.. though gotta hand it to him for having guts.

As for poetry, power & beauty of expression, eloquence w/the english language (which I fer shur ain't got), & a sensitive - perhaps sensuous - ear for tunes, tonalities, etc.. IMHO he just wasn't even there most of the time. I think there are/have been many vastly more eloquent, intellectually more honest & more impressive folkish singer-song-writer types. Folks, get out your old albums & listen CAREFULLY to Gordon Lightfoot, esp lots of his early stuff - THERE is a poet! Speaking strictly for me, Dylan didn't hold a candle to GL & many others.

For grit, emotional power & content how about Eric Bogle - who makes no pretense of being an elegant vocalist - or Stan Rogers, who inspired me to get through some damn tough times ("Mary Ellen Carter"). And for a guy who has it all - a rich, sonorous voice, powerful, thoughtful & elegant use of language, artistry in his instrumental mastery - how about Stan's "little" brother Garnet Rogers - wow, that's class, folks... No matter who is the most famous - or might at least still be mentioned in books a hundred years from now - Dylan isn't even in their league - not even in their universe, as far as I'm concerned.

Talent has almost nothing to do with "success."

My $0.02; Cheers, BK


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: BK
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 12:25 AM

p's. Didn't mean to slight the ladies in my comments above. Those were just the people who sprang first to mind.

Cheers, BK


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Sabra
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 12:51 AM

I sing quite a few Dylan songs, not because they are his but because they are a joy to sing...I guess that would be my opinion on the subject,hmm?

And on the mindless trivia subject (what mindless trivia subject?:Did Joan Baez really write 'Diamonds and Rust' about dear Mr. Z? Just curious-I sing that one too and thinks it's great, I think Bob would have to get vicarious bonus points for being such an arse and inspiring that song as well if the rumour is true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Arkie
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 01:41 AM

Eddie Adcock,a world class artist on banjo and guitar once made the statement that people will tell him that he is the greatest banjo player that they have ever heard. Eddie went on to say "what they mean is that they like my playing. I know I'm not the greatest banjo player, but I appreciate the fact that they like what I do." When someone uses a term like "greatest" or "overrated" they are expressing an opinion. I personally do not listen to music to rate performers or songs great, greater, or greatest. I listen for pleasure. I happen to like a lot of the music of Gordon Lightfoot, Stan Rogers, Phil Ochs, Tom Paxton, and Harry Chapin and Bob Dylan. Not all, but alot. I will leave it to those who care about such things as to who is the greatest or who is overrated. Those comments will also tell me far more about the people who make them than they will the subject of their idolization or disgust. A.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: GUEST,Skipjack who is Greg, but not this Greg
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 05:29 AM

Just wanted to distance myself from this flamer.

Have Freewheelin', love it. Reckon the Devil still has all the best songs. Reckon 10% remarkable, the rest not.

Skipjack


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: GUEST,Bob Dylan Too
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 07:42 AM

Greg,

You got a lotta' nerve to say you are my friend...

OK, I can't sing like Fred Neil, can't play geetar like Kottke and my words don't measure up to Rimbaud's but like my youngest fan said you got to consider the whole package. Putting words to music ain't like rolling off a log, not all the time anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Ringer
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 08:22 AM

This sixties' teenager came into folk music via (among a lot of others) Bob Dylan, IMHO:

He spoke for a generation. As easy it was to tell black from white, it was all that easy to tell wrong from right; that's how teenagers feel about moral issues. "Lonesome Death of Hattie Caroll", "Pawn in the Game", "Times They are a'Changing" -- we grieved for the wrongs of the world. And now this 50+ middle-aged cynic, looking back, feels perhaps that, along with teenage certainties, he's lost more than his hair. I owe Bob Dylan an awful lot.

Having said that, I've never listened to anything later than "Bringing it all back home", and don't intend to. (I've never heard of Hanson, either.) But the first album had wonderful, driving, blues which still bewitch me; the next three I don't listen to but remember with great affection. I've moved on, and so has Bob, but in different directions...


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: GUEST,The youngest BOB and HANSON fan
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 09:51 AM

Dear MBO-

I agree, the song "Weird" is amazingly written and superbly performed.

"Sitting on the side, waiting for a sign hoping that my luck will change. Reaching for a hand that will understand- someone who feels the same. When you live in a cookie-cutter world Being different is a sin. And you don't stand out. And you don't fit in... Weird"

The lyrics to "Mmmbop" are very profound, I agree. What some people classified as juvenille songwriting:

"Plant a seed, plant a flower, plant a rose- you can plant anyone of those. Keep planting to find out which one grows. It's a secret no one knows."

The word "Mmmbop," Hanson says, means, "an unforgettable moment."

:)www.hansonline.com (:


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 09:58 AM

Ummm... Over-rated?... Definitely not!

The Doors, yes

Janice Joplin, Maybe

But who the hell cares? If ya like it, listen to it, if ya don't like it, DON'T!

{~`



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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: zander (inactive)
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 10:18 AM

Dylan was THE voice of his generation in the late sixty's Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: BK
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 11:48 AM

For ME bob was not by any means whatsoever "THE" singular voice of a generation, whatever he may have been for others - he was one of MANY voices, albeit sometimes an important one. Some of the "voices" from then, in terms of writers of songs that made a difference in my life, I don't remember the name of - but I remember the wonderful songs they wrote. Guess I have some homework to do. I'm working on putting together a 60's style "Hoot" for our church, & certainly a song or 3 from Dylan will be there, but so will many others.

I would like it very much if somehow ALL the songs that have an important message for me would also have such impact on others, 'n also that they will last thru many generations. Some of Paxton's material appers to be doing that, & probably others as well.. Only time will tell. Meanwhile, whatever songs I sing are all because I care for the song, not specifically because of who wrote them, but rather because of what they say to, & for, (& about?) me.

Again my $0.02

Cheers, BK, who does respect some of what Dylan did, but cannot find it in his heart to put him on a pedestal, above all others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Troll
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 12:05 PM

I agree with Clinton Hammond.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 12:11 PM

Hey Joe, If it wasn't for Dylan would you not be Joe Strummer? SteveO


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Pontiac Joe
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 01:18 PM

Steve O , Guess I forgot the period between strumming and my name It did look kinda funny . eh?

Joe


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Mooh
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 01:39 PM

GUEST, Greg, I bet there's plenty of your very favourite musicians who value BD more highly than you, so maybe he's not over-rated. Many a time it is that someone has influenced me toward listening again to something/someone and I've changed my mind about it/them. BD is not God, but he's damn good in my mind because I listened more than I would have if someone I respected hadn't suggested that I try him again. The cool thing about all of this is YOU don't HAVE to like him at all, or you can like him by degrees. Maybe BD would like that too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Paul G.
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 02:32 PM

I'm not a huge Dylan fan, never have been. But I respect what he did. My 21 year old daughter and her guy went to a Dylan concert last year -- said his voice had deteriorated to near the point of pity, but the lyrics were still moving. When I look for an opportunity for audience participation during a performance, I almost always do "You Ain't Going Nowhere" -- fun to sing and almost everyone knows it (at least by the end of the song). Someone earlier said that Dylan created himself. I agree, that he managed his persona -- sort of a Madonna of the Folk Era. But you've got to give him credit for it, it takes genius to present the whole, sellable package.

pg


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Caitrin
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 02:34 PM

Personally, I'm a pretty big Dylan fan. Not so devoted as my little brother (who is obsessive and knows all the words to SubTerranean Homesick Blues), but still admiring. I think Dylan has written some of the most meaningful lyrics there are. They haven't grown in the least stale over the 30 years since they were written.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Mbo
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 03:31 PM

Yougest Bob Fan, "Mmmbop" reminds me of a line by my favorite songwriter, Jeff Lynne of ELO, who says "You gotta get it all to get it all to grow." Words to live by!

--Mbo


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: GUEST,The youngest BOB and HANSON fan
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 05:10 PM

Dear MBO-

yep! Words to live by :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Gypsy
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 05:40 PM

Hmmmm..... A man spends his entire adult life, writing, playing, and singing. Doing what is right for him. And someone has audacity to judge? Can't say that he ever sold out. So, like the music, or don't, but don't be quite so critical.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Ely
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 05:41 PM

I love both Dylan and Townes Van Zandt (in reference to Steve Earle). I don't think they're gods; I don't love everything they wrote and I don't love them exclusively. I don't listen to Dylan for his guitar ability (or lack thereof, if you want), and I don't mind a rough voice if it's not pretending to be anything else. But show me a better set of lyrics than "Don't Think Twice, It's All Right".


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Art Thieme
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 05:47 PM

Bald Eagle, I could've written your exact paragraphs---word for word. You hit the nail right on from where I'm sittin' all these years down the road.

On a slightly different topic: When banding birds, I could never get the little things to stay on the legs. Only the females seemed to present this problem. So I decided to band-her-snatch. Worked out great...

Art Thieme esq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Mbo
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 05:59 PM

I guess I don't have a real opinion about Bob Dylan. I don't usually buy CDs that much...most of what I know has come from libraries over the years, and my library only has Dylan stuff from the 80's, and not the more classic stuff that I hear about here. I do know that what songs I've heard of his, I've really enjoyed. "Rainy Day Women #12 & 35" is a really funny song--it always makes me laugh when I hear it. I guess my favorite song of his is "Don't Think Twice"...very powerful. But people attribute so many things to his playing and songwriting, I can't help but join in. He's part of our musical landscape...and love him or hate him, he was indeed a juggernaut who's effect is still being felt to this very day--as our own Youngest Bob Fan can fully attest to. Bang a drum for the heroes.

--Mbo


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: sophocleese
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 06:18 PM

Fascinating thread this. Clearly some people do overrate Dylan. They are easy to recognize; they're the ones saying you are not allowed to presume to question or criticize him. Love him, hate him, take him or leave him, we're all different, but don't ever suggest that Dylan, or his music, is above being discussed and criticized.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Peter T.
Date: 05 Mar 00 - 10:38 AM

Sabra, Diamonds and Rust is about Dylan. You might enjoy hearing Joan's recent live album with lady friends, where she changes the ending giving him the boot!!! yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: The youngest BOB fan
Date: 05 Mar 00 - 04:37 PM

YAY! I'm not a "Guest" anymore :) Just thought I'd share that with everyone...


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: sophocleese
Date: 05 Mar 00 - 04:44 PM

Good for you Youngest BOB fan: how would you like that shortened for easier typing of replies?


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: GUEST,The Beanster
Date: 05 Mar 00 - 05:02 PM

I can't believe all this space being used to discuss a topic such as this. You either like Bob Dylan or you don't. Opinion. What's the debate?? If you are too young to have been around pre-Bob Dylan, you don't have enough information to form an opinion anyway, as his appeal was as much cultural as it was musical. And if you weren't there, you don't have a valid opinion. End of story. If you were there, you can type 'til you're blue in the face and you won't change the opposing side's opinion--and why would you want to?


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: The youngest BOB fan
Date: 05 Mar 00 - 05:38 PM

Dear Guest_The Beanster-

You bring up a valid point- I was not around then. However, I still think that I may have an opinion even if an adult as yourself may think they may brush it off as they please. I can have an opinion on Bob Dylan and his music if a darn well want to, and I may express it openly because I have that right, even though you might want to take that away from me. And as for my opinion not being "valid"... since when is any opinion not valid? Silly me... I thought anyone can have an opinion on anything... but I guess The Beanster proved me wrong... :-Þ


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: GUEST,The Beanster
Date: 05 Mar 00 - 06:10 PM

Dear Youngest BOB Fan, No need to get snippy. lol I have no agenda to "take away" your view as I have not the ability, nor the desire. To answer your question, "Since when is any opinion not valid?" --When one does not have enough information on which to base the opinion. Indeed, you have a right to your opinion, as does everyone. (Besides, I was not referring to you, specifically, so why the defensiveness? Chill.) My point is, if one chooses to make her/his opinion known and if one doesn't possess the requisite knowledge to back it up, one runs the risk of appearing foolish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 05 Mar 00 - 06:23 PM

now, Bob has disturbed me and goaded and turned me.... He's written so many that all but have spurned me.... his meter is good, and his rhyming has learned me.... but the demeaner he took turned me off till he burned me.

But hand it to him I reluctantly must.... He got astride muses and rode them to dust.... he didn't content himself with cheap selling lust.... though his caustic derisions did rust.... I'm not sure but...Isn't all this what the legacy of a folk singer is all about?


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Troll
Date: 06 Mar 00 - 12:09 AM

If the only people allowed to criticize Bob Dylan were those who could write as well as he could, he would have few critics indeed.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Spider Tom
Date: 06 Mar 00 - 05:22 AM

Like it or lump it
Bobby D..
Is set to be
The ruler,
By which others are measured.
Read, the words
Hear, the tunes
You'll realise,
Just why He's treasured.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: GUEST,Regis Philbin
Date: 06 Mar 00 - 09:36 AM

Final Answer: Bob Dylan wrote more enduring songs than any other songwriter of his generation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: GeorgeH
Date: 06 Mar 00 - 09:44 AM

Hey, we've been here before . .

G.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Amos
Date: 06 Mar 00 - 01:30 PM

In an open market, nothing is "vastly overrated" - as TYBF points out, opinion is an easy commodity, not easily measured against its own kind. Some members of the species learned this centuries ago when the phrase de gustibus non disputandum was coined; later the French developed "Chacun á son mauvais gout" (well, I modified it for versimilitude) meaning "Everyone's entitled to their own bad taste".

Others, however, have yet to realize that goodness and badness have basis other than opinion and spend lifetimes scrambling around disputing them...just the thing to pass the time away, I guess.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Troll
Date: 06 Mar 00 - 02:40 PM

Sorta like dandruff; it's somethin' to keep 'em occupied while waitin' for the next soap opera.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Amos
Date: 06 Mar 00 - 05:54 PM

LOL!! You wannn funny dude, Meester Troll, even if you do live in a culvert...


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: GUEST, Botticelli's Niece
Date: 06 Mar 00 - 06:43 PM

Dear Beanster,

Careful what you say about people's opinions. Saying that just because someone wasn't around for an event or a persons life doesn't mean that they can't have an opinion about it or be very knowledgeble on the subject. Just look at any history book or listen to a historian. You can have a PH.d in Ancient Civilization's without having lived at tat time. Any history book written is inevidebly going to have a little bit of the writer's opinion in it. That's why we can go to a book store or library and find many different books on the same subject.

As for Dylan, his music has always sparked a love hate relationship with the public. I think you have to look at how widely known his is right now while he is still alive. He is considered to be an icon and he is still living. With many artists (Not all. Because I know I will get some flack.) true fame and recognition doesn't come until after their death. Look at J.S. Bach. It wasn't until Mozart uncovered some of his work and writings that Bach received the recognition that he so rightly deserved. Dylan's popularity spans generations even before his death. He will be someone we will listening to and debating about forever.

Bottielli's Niece


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: GUEST,The Beanster
Date: 06 Mar 00 - 07:06 PM

Dear Boticelli's Niece,

Oh, here we go! lol I believe you are putting words in my ...keyboard. I didn't say that because a person wasn't around for a particular event that they can't have an opinion or be knowledgable about it. I do not, however, believe that the person to whom I was addressing the original posting holds a Ph.D., is a Bob Dylan scholar, nor a scholar of the period during which Dylan became known.

I truly do not care who likes Bob Dylan and who doesn't, or why, by the way.

Again, my point was that of course, everyone has a right to their opinion. zzzzzzzzzzz However, opinions must have a fairly solid foundation if they are to be taken seriously. That's it. I cannot bear to discuss this topic anymore. (But thank you for your opinion). :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Froodo
Date: 06 Mar 00 - 07:48 PM

And so the thread ends...

We all hope.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: GUEST,The Beanster
Date: 06 Mar 00 - 07:55 PM

AMEN, Froodo!


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: GUEST,Botticelli's Niece
Date: 06 Mar 00 - 08:58 PM

The thread shall end, but in the end everything is always connected.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: bob jr
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 03:58 PM

well now i dont know what anyones definition of overated is exactly but i know that i wouldnt be playing today if not for bob and that goes for alot of folks too. i figure he is one of the best songwriters of the sixties to come from america and his traditional material was always done in an intersting fashion. he wasnt no john hurt on the guitar but he wasnt awful either...most folks who play know about half dozen songs by dylan but townes van zandt? i mean he is good and all but i figure steve earl was drunk when he said that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Shields Folk
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 04:12 PM

He's done nowt since the Magic Roundabout.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: radriano
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 06:06 PM

Just another mental masturbation marathon on old Mudcat!


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: GUEST,Me
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 06:27 PM

Billy Joel is vastly overrated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Joe_F
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 07:09 PM

I bought a couple of his records when they started coming out in the 1960s. Indeed, I bought a turntable so I could listen to them. A human voice coming out of a loudspeaker! How refreshing! What a relief from gangster sleaze & mechanized tantrums! But that novelty wasn't enough to keep me buying his records, or even to keep me listening to the ones I had. And I never learned even one of his songs all the way thru.

So I guess, if I were into rating people, I would rate Dylan lower than the authors (many of them anonymous) of the songs & poems I have bothered to learn or have at least returned to over the years. However, I believe that such comparisons are worse than pointless; they are vicious. They are part of the apparatus of fame, and fame, in my judgement, is an evil. It is an old evil, deeply rooted in human nature, and made worse in recent times by technical progress. In all those respects it resembles war. I have no notion of getting rid of it, but at any rate I do not contribute to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: kendall
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 07:18 PM

Ely, how about this:

Times on the railroad getting hard babe
Woke up last night and saw it snow
Remember what you said to me last summer
When you seen me walking down that road?

There aint no use to sit and cry now darlin'
Aint no use to sit and cry now
You know it aint no use to sit and wonder why darlin'
Just wonder who's gonna buy you ribbons when I'm gone.
Walking down that long lonesome road babe
You'r the one that made me travel on
Still, I cant help wondering as I go darlin'
Just wonder who's gonna buy you ribbons when I'm gone. etc.

Sound familiar? Dylan liked it well enough to steal the whole idea.

Steven Foster also wrote Beautiful Dreamer. I once had a girl friend who loved to have me sing that and play it on the 12 string guitar. They dont write them like that no more, eh, Doug?


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: RangerSteve
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 07:28 PM

Just like a lot of people who have replied to this thread, I do and don't like BD. I can't think of anyone whose work is consistantly good. Even my heroes have recorded some clunkers. And if someone really likes Dylan, it won't effect my life one bit. I don't quite understand why this tread was even started.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: kendall
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 06:30 AM

Blowin' in the wind vindicates him in any case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Big Tim
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 10:58 AM

If Dylan weren't so great there wouldn't be all this discussion about his work. Having said that some of the nonsense spoken here almost makes me despair. No wonder Dylan has recently written "people are crazy and times are strange...I used to care but things have changed".


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: kendall
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 11:44 AM

Define great.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: GUEST,Frogmore
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 12:09 PM

I have been an active songwriter and performer a long time. Those who do what I do all hold Bob in very high esteem. My guess is that the critics are generally "listeners" rather than "makers" of music. This is my perspective - do you think I'm close to being right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Big Tim
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 06:33 PM

Kendall; never mind the semantics, you'll know it when you hear it, for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 09:54 PM

I laugh when I see the title of this thread! I chuckle and grin. As threads go, it is vastly overrated.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Dylan is vastly overrated
From: GUEST,ray bucknell
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 08:44 PM

Never cared for his voice, but I do love some of the songs he's written. I've also noticed that an unusually large number of my 8-year-old's classmates, friends and teammates are named Dylan....

Ray


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 3 August 9:57 PM EDT

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