BS: I don't know what to say

Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: GUEST,Penny S. (elsewhere)
Date: 09 Mar 00 - 07:41 AM

I saw this, astonished, but it isn't new, or "what are we coming to?" In ancient Athens, there was a place where babies could be left, and any couple wanting one could pick one up. (The problems there could be appalling.) And in medieval Europe, some convents had sort of swing hatches where babies could be put. It has to be better than abandoning them on golf courses or in hedges. Better still to have the society where the problem isn't a problem, but meanwhile, it helps the few - only two last year, apparently, in Hamburg.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: BlueJay
Date: 09 Mar 00 - 03:45 AM

Spaw, you nailed it. It seems like almost DAILY we see in the newspapers of babies being found dead or abandoned in the grocery store. I can't imagine the dire straits which lead to this, especially when the support system DOES exist. I know from personal experience that a little bit of counselling at this critical time goes a long way. If not to keep parents/child together as a famli;y, then that there are good alternatives. Spaw, you obviously know much more than I about the foster care system. But I'd rather see ANY baby, bonding with ANY caring adult from birth, than abandoned. How fortunate are those of us living in affluent societies. I just saw tonight on NIGHTLINE, about Zimbabwe, where a hellish percentage of young parents are dying of AIDS, and one quarter of the children are also infected. In many cases, the only ones left to care for these children are the GRANDPARENTS, as they are the only generation pretty much unaffected by the disease. We must be able to do more in our affluent society. Shed a tear, say a prayer. Watch NIGHTLINE tomorrow night for more on this subject.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Mar 00 - 12:20 AM

Crying again, for all the unwanted, lost children of what ever species........ref: Attachment Disorder--yes, I am absolutely sure this exists; was it the Catholic Church that said, "Give me a child until he is five, and then he is mine?" And, "THEY" won't let us be foster parents because we do not have a private bedroom and bath........

Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: Escamillo
Date: 08 Mar 00 - 11:57 PM

Namibian Rhynoceros are being moved to Australia or being mutilated to save them from illegal hunters. Baby gorillas are being taken from their habitat to save them from starvation. Baby trees in the far south of Argentina are being saved from forest exploiting companies. Hungarian and German (or immigrant ??) babies are being saved by easing their separation from their mothers. All the same.
Why don't they enlarge that hatch and put a large sign: "GET HERE YOU AND YOUR BABY - WE WILL HELP YOU BOTH" ?? No, that's too revolutionary - and too expensive, it would cost almost the same as a war aircraft.
ajjjj... - Andrés

Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: GUEST,The Beanster
Date: 08 Mar 00 - 11:55 PM

Spaw did say it all. We do need to find a way to rescue kids from moms who don't want them or can't take care of them. Kids who are neglected and/or mistreated especially between 0-3 yrs are at enormous risk for becoming conduct disordered teens and antisocial adults. Since these babies have experienced the world (a world, for them, from which there is no escape) as hostile and unsafe at such an early age, they cannot form an attachment to their caregiver (usually, Mom--who's supposed to provide love, safety, etc.) and therefore, that attachment is never globalized to other people, animals, etc.--or even themselves. Since their world view is one of misery and mistrust and they feel victimized and misunderstood, they tend to make the first strike and can become predators.

I always feel terribly sorry for well-meaning folks who are dying to be parents, so they take a trip to the former Soviet Union (or wherever) adopt a baby they know nothing about, or a toddler who is already showing signs of behavioral problems and they think that all the child needs is enough love and he/she will be alright. Attachment Disorder does not go away. Most often, the damage is done and cannot be undone.

This idea the Germans have sounds alarming at first, but this is such a horrific situation with all these babies either neglected, abused or left to die. If they find that this will save kids' lives, more power to them.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: Troll
Date: 08 Mar 00 - 11:26 PM

I had a whole diatribe ready to post but I realized that Spaw said it all.

What DO we do with these kids?

troll

Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Mar 00 - 10:50 PM

Crude as this may sound Gary, I imagine they have a claim check system of some sort.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: Gary T
Date: 08 Mar 00 - 10:47 PM

So they keep the babies for three months, in the hopes that some mothers might change their minds and reclaim their children. But the drop-off is such that the mothers are unfilmed and unidentified--how will anyone know whose kid is whose?

Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 08 Mar 00 - 10:43 PM

Aye Spaw you are a decent fellah... too many people are abandoning babies and any way we can provide an alternative way of saving them, then I for one support it. Lamentable though it may be, if it saves a life that has to be valuable. The sanctity of life must be preserved; but I also say that it is too easy to create it, and not follow through with the responsibility of nurturing it. Sad Sad Sad Human condition. Yours,Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: paddymac
Date: 08 Mar 00 - 10:19 PM

Want 'em and love 'em, or don't have 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Mar 00 - 09:52 PM

As a foster parent of over 30 kids, I got a few comments, but another diatribe won't change the world.

Almost every child we have had in care suffered from something that only within the past ten years have we recognized, and yet it accounts for the behaviors and problems associated with many children and virtually all those in alternate placement. Now I hate tags as much as the next guy, and I really hate the "syndrome" thing......but folks, this one is real, documented, proven, and epidemic. Its called "Attachment Disorder." When a child, especially as an infant, does not get the response needed to his demands for basic needs, he looks elsewhere. Given a prolonged period of inattention, the infant develops the ability to get what he needs from himself. Sound nuts? Its not. The behaviors manifested later in the child's life have little to do with being stand-offish as you might expect. Indeed, as youngsters of 4-12 they are the most adorable, huggy, lovey, smiling, friendly, outgoing, and seemingly sweet children you would ever want to meet......right up to the point they kill your dog, beat up an infant, or set fire to your house.

If almost all of the kids we've had in care had been placed for immediate adoption (...and the adoptive process wasn't an expensive and hoop dancing contest for prospective parents...that's another story) they would ALL have been better off, including my son Michael. He exhibits certain signs, even though he came to us at 9 months of age. For him, its more a failure to thrive situation and it has delayed him in school although he's socially and artistically greatly beyond other kids his age.

Lot of things need to change folks....but in the meantime, what do we do with the kids?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Mar 00 - 08:23 PM

One of many slippery slopes, eh?

I see so many stories now on the news that are about the normalization of EXACTLY what the ethicists of 10 years before SWORE we fine humans would never allow to happen. These stories then go on to include today's ethicist SWEARING that the next dire possible development can't POSSIBLY happen...

And yet we have the obverse-- remember the way recyclers were sure NO ONE would ever "get" recycling, and now it is widely taken for granted?

A society evolves, and we can only even-dimly see the part we are in at each given moment. That's where value judgments have to be made, IMHO. In the RIGHT NOW.

So which things are OK to allow/assist to evolve, and which not??? I guess we can agree to disagree on Who or what made the rules, but wouldn't you agree that we are in charge of what we decide to do, allow, and support?

Our human tendency is to follow the energy being allocated to our own natural knee-jerk reaction, and start the kicking contest in our rush to understand what we are too small to understand.

As an alternative to making this another thread with yelling at each other in it (I am not saying this one means to or necessarily does have that effect!!!), I propose we take that thought with us as we look around ourselves for the nest few days, and come back to me with what we think about the spcifics of what we see.....

Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: Sorcha
Date: 08 Mar 00 - 08:18 PM

I think it is somewhere in Texas, that a woman has started a program to prevent dead babies in dumpsters,etc. as an alternative to abortion. Well, abortion has it's up side,(ask me!), but dead babies are definitely a DOWNER!

Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: Bugsy
Date: 08 Mar 00 - 08:15 PM

I was going to say "What is the world coming to." but I see we are already there.

God save us from uncaring parents.

Cheers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Mar 00 - 08:10 PM

Now something's happened to reinstate the link, we can see what it was Bert was speechless about. I'd just taken it as a crafty way to start a daft thread about incoherence.

The idea of the baby bank is disconcerting - but babies do get left on doorsteps and bus shelters by mothers who can't see any way they can manage to look after them. Far better if they can be left somewhere safe. Far better for the baby - and for the mother, whatever she ultimately decides to do.

I am very puzzled by why anyone would think it's not a good idea, and yet I know that there has been sonme sharp criticism - if the idea is that this might make it easier for a mother to abandon her child, that's an appalling way of thinking. It's in effect saying that society should use the risk of a child dying of cold on a doorstep as a way of putting pressure on the mother to keep looking after it.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Mar 00 - 08:04 PM

It's here in US, too, see US News or Newsweek of last few weeks, can't recall which, or which week.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: Sorcha
Date: 08 Mar 00 - 05:13 PM

"Where's the light?"
"Right here"
No,theodolite"
Just spit it out, Bert. And let's be sure it's the TRUTH!

Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Mar 00 - 03:31 PM

This light is ok, but theodolite isn't working the way it should.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Mar 00 - 03:15 PM

The word for today is:

Theodolite!

Now try and fit that into a conversation when you don't know what to say!!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: rangeroger
Date: 08 Mar 00 - 01:10 PM

Aha,just as I suspected.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: paddymac
Date: 08 Mar 00 - 01:02 PM

Hmmm!

Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Mar 00 - 12:32 PM

Yeah....better than a lot of the threads we've been running lately.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: fulurum
Date: 08 Mar 00 - 12:18 PM

that about sums it up

Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: JamesJim
Date: 08 Mar 00 - 11:42 AM

Good thought!

Subject: I don't know what to say
From: Bert
Date: 08 Mar 00 - 11:31 AM

about this I'm speechless.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=002427524251977&rtmo=aTX4u9hJ&atmo=tttttttd&pg=/et/00/3/8/wbab08.html