Lyr Req: Eistigh liomsa sealad

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eistigh liomsa sealad
From: MartinRyan
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 03:06 PM

Áine

I recently picked up a booklet published by Cumann cheol tíre Éireann in 1984, called "Sean Amhrain i gcló: 1716-1855". It's a collection of reprints of early songs published in Irish.

One of them is a 40 line (not divided into verses) version of Sean 'a Duibhir, with the wonderful English subtitle of: "An elegy for John O'Dwyer, Esq. by Owen O'Sullivan"!It comes from "An Duanaire, A selection of Irish Poems and Moral Epigrams" (Thaddeus Connellan), published in Dublin in 1829.

Its in old script of course - and difficult to read but the first verse or two are very similar to the version you quote above - apart from the fact that it starts "Eistigh liomsa FEASTA..", interestingly enough. Anyway, I haven't the patience to transcribe it. I'll experiment with a GIF - but susjpect it may not work very well. ALternatively, I can send you a copy.

Regards

Martin

p.s. By way of thread creep: another song in the collection, with notation, gives the speed by quoting the length of a pendulum equivalent to a dotted crotchet! Anyone know if this system was ever common?

Subject: Lyr Add: ÉISTIG SEALAD LIOMSA
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 09:43 PM

Herewith th lyrics promised earlier.:

Éistig sealad liomsa go neosfad scéal díbh
Go cruinn le héifeacht o nGaeilge cheart
Go bhfuil sliocht Chalvin agus Luther traochta
Gan fíon gan féasta, gan réim gan neart;
Go bhfuil Dónall Ó Conaill i mbun cúil ag Gaelaibh
Is go deimhin ní baol díbh go dtógfaidh breab,
Go mbeidh ár bparlaimint againn gan mhoill in Éirinn
Agus ár gcampaí ag pléireacht ar Shliabh na mBan.
2
You true sons of Erin pray pay attention
Whilst I relate a fine tale to you
The Orange clan will be soon done over,
Without wine or porter, what will they do?
Brave O'Connell in our case will struggle,
And for their bribes he cares not a damn,
Our trade and parliament he will bring over,
And with joy will hail them on Sliabh na mBan.
3
Go deimhin níor mhiste liom na diabhail dá dtraochadh,
Agus a bhfórsaí tréana bheith claoíte lag,
Go domhain in Ifreann idir thinte á gcéasadh,
Agus gan fáil ar éinne acu choíche as teacht;
Mar is fada ó dheineadar an gníomh seo ar Ghaelaibh,
Ar ár sagairt naofa bhi ag an mionn faoi smacht,
Ag léamh an Aifrinn cois claí dá dtréada,
Mo leabhar gan bhréag díbh go ndíolfaid as.
4.
I ne'er would grumble if those cursed demons
And their strong forces in chains were fast,
In Pluto's arms in flames most warm,
And no returning while time would last.
For in fear and trembling our holy pastors
Were forced the Mass for to celebrate
By the ditches' side, for their congregation,
They'll pay for it all - it is now too late.
5.
Is iad dream na Breataine ar fad do chéas mé,
Agus do chuir na céadta dár mbuíon thar lear,
Anonn go Botany faoi bholtaí daora,
Agus gan súil le héinne acu teach choíche thar n-ais,
Tá an téarma caite is an barr ar saothar,
Do gheobham gan buíochas ó bhúiribh ceart,
Gan amhras sásamh as a ndearna mé féinig
In am an tsaothair ar Shliabh na mBan.
< 6.
In ninety-eight, you may remember,
Our dearest brethren were sent away,
They were transported, chained and bolted,
We shall long remember those fatal days;
But that time is ended and we're befriended,
By that brave hero, I mean noble Dan,
He will gain our freedom, come let us cheer him,
And sound his praises on Sliabh na mBan.
7.
Le toil an Aoinmhic tá aniois in Éirinn,
An planda gléigeal ba thréine ga,
Do sheasaimh go dána ar stáitse do Ghaelaibh,
Agus a gcás gur phleigh sé go cruinn i gceart.
Ainm an draoi díbh gan spléachas béarfad,
Go binn go héifeacht, ní bréag mo stair,
Gurb é Dónall Ó Connell ó gharrán gréine
A bhuafas sway dhúinn ar Shliabh na mBan.
8.
We have a hero, thank God, in Ireland,
The gratest warrior that ever stood,
He gained our freedom and put down oppression,
Without a sword or the loss of blood.
By him the proctors are quite done ever,
Their cheeks are fading as their bribes are gone,
I mean O'Connell of Derrynane Abbey,
That will gain the day for us on Sliabh na mBan.

Cambridge University Library, anonymous ballad sheet. Ádh mór oraibh. Annraoi

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eistigh liomsa sealad
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 09:54 PM

I've just noticed an inconsistency in Verse 4. I suspect that the last line should read

"They'll pay for it all - it is not too late."
Other errors are:-
Verse 5, Line 4:- "teach" recte "teacht".
Verse 7, Line 1:- "aniois" recte "anois".
Verse 8, Line 2:- "gratest" recte "greatest."
Annraoi.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eistigh liomsa sealad
From: Áine
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 09:03 AM

Go raibh céad míle maith agat, a Annraoi!! These are wonderful lyrics. Thank you so much for typing them in. Would these words fit the tune for 'Sliabh na mBan'? I see that your source was "Cambridge University Library, anonymous ballad sheet" -- was there any more information about this piece? The style in the Irish reminds me of another poet - but I can't put my finger on the name. Any ideas of who the author could be or the year it could have been composed?

And Máirtín -- It didn't hit me until this morning, but, I think you may have the version we're looking for, at last! Please see my message of 03-Jun-00, 01:33 PM, which mentions the Nua-Dhuanaire. Is the first verse of the version you have the same as the one I quoted from Tomás Ó Canainn's Traditional Music in Ireland in that same message?

I hope you guys are enjoying the hunt for this song as much as I am!

Le meas, Áine

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eistigh liomsa sealad
From: MartinRyan
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 10:36 AM

Áine

The "Nua-dhuanaire" is, of course, a modern collection, whereas the "Duanaire" was 1829. I've seen one volume of the new set recently - and will try to check on the Vol III next time I'm in Dublin. I'll post the old set to you when I get a chance.

Regards

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eistigh liomsa sealad
From: MartinRyan
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 01:40 PM

Whaat I mean is - I'm as suspicious of coincidence as the next person!

Regards

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eistigh liomsa sealad
From: MartinRyan
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 05:47 PM

Just got hold of a copy of the relevant pages of the Nua-Duanaire mentioned above. I'll get back with details over the next few days.

Regards

Subject: Lyr Add: SEÁN Ó DUIBHIR AN GHLEANNA
From: MartinRyan
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 04:09 PM

Here's the version given in the Nua-Duanaire III published by the Dublin Institute of Advanced Studies in 1981. Its given in verses of sixteen shoart lines, but I've used the more usual 8-line layout - with some guesses at syntax.

SEÁN Ó DUIBHIR AN GHLEANNA

Éistidh liomsa sealad go 'neosad díbh cé cailleadh
'Sé Seán Ó Duibhir an Ghleanna is gan trácht thar a réim
A choin, a ghadhair 's a chpaill, tá go doimhin fé chré is fé chartadh
Is ní fios cár ghaibh an t-anam, bhí in áras a chléibh
Mar is cladhaire an bás a thagann go ciúin, gan chaint, i ganfhios,
Ar nós na taoide a leathann ar chuantaibh 's a scéitheann
Agus ó tá sé i ndán dúinn freagairt, bíodh grásta an Rí againn feasta
'S na bóithre glan roimh ár n-anam go háras na naomh

Céad glóire leis an Athair, tá go comhachtach ins an Fhlaithis
Cé gur síoraí buan í a ainmle trácht ag an saol
Do chum, do chlóigh na haingil, go lonrach, soilseach, lasmhar
Gan cheo, gan smól, gan pheaca, gan teimheal mar an ngréin
Do stiúraigh spéartha is scamall, do chur solas árd sa ngealaigh
Na réiltinn chúinn ag taitneamh, gach oíche ar an spéir
Do scaoil gach abha is glaise, 'na slaodaibh tíugha lena fheartaibh
'S an mhórmhuir bhrútach ' caiseadh a lán dá cuid éisc

Céad glóire arís lena ainm, go síoraí buan le seasamh
Do thill is fuair an ceannas i gclú glan 's i réim
Do líon gach coill de chrannaibh, go buachach bláfar daite
'S na héin go binn ag cantain 'na ngéagaibh go léir
Dá laighead le rá na beacha, do thug dhóbh ceard dheas bheatha
Cé go ndeagaidh sé d'údair mhaithe, í a fhoghlaim mar cheird
Cnósaid leo a gcuid meala, fhaid bhíonn an ghrian ag taitneamh
Mar stór i gcomhair í a chaiteamh sa ngeimhreadh le céill

Sin sampla dhuitse, a pheacaigh, le foghlaim ósna beacha
A chnósaíonn leo a gcuid meala a gleannaibh na gcraobh
'S na mnaoimh do bhíodh go dealamh, ná cruinníodh stór ná paca
Is ní cuireadh ór i dtaisce ná i mbancaibh an tsaoil
Ná caitheadh bútais smeartha, is ná téadh ar marcaíocht chapaill
Ach ag siúl ar fuaid an tsneachta gan scáth orthu ón spéir
Go mbíodh a gcéalac fada is ná téadh chun suain ar leapan
Ach ag méadú stór na bhFlaitheas go cráifeach gan chraos

Do gach n-aon atáim á thagairt, go mbíonn a gclaonta á mealladh
Ná leanann riail na sagart ná sampla na naomh
A bhíonn ag cnáid 's ag magadh, fén té bhíonn fánach dealamh
Ná bíonn chomh hard leo i rachmas ná i saibhreas an tsaoil
Nuair théid go tabharna an leanna, bíd ag glaoch is ag gairm
Ar gach sóghlas bídh dob fhearra 's ar fíontaibh bhíonn daor
Ag titim i ndrúis an pheacaidh, dá bhfaigheadh aon choi ar i ganfhios
'S ainm Mhic Dé acu á spalpadh, le scleondar gan spéis

Tugaidh go léir fé ndeara an sampla d'fhág an Leanbh
Nuair thuirling sé ar an dtalamh le grá dhúinn go léir
Do saolaíodh é go dealamh i mainséar fhuar an asail
I lár an gheimhridh ghairbh gan aoibhneas gan aer
Nuair éirigh suas i bpearsain, níor thóg sé léas ar thalamh
Níor dheaghaidh ag fiach le marcaigh, 's níor ghráidh rian a ngéim
Níor iarr sé cuairt ná halla, is níor shuigh sé i dtabhairne an ragaidh
Le mian ag diúgadh an leanna, ach an fíor uisce caol

Cé chífeadh dream an airm, nár chrom a nglúín chun sagairt
'S go ndeaghaidh de Chríost a dteagasc ná a dtabhairt ar a réir
A ghéaga acu á cheangal ar adhmad chruaidh gan taise
Ina bhraighid gan choir gan pheaca, á thabhairt chun an tsléibhe
A gclaidhte géara glana acu ina ndóíd ag bagairt
Os comhair na mílte pearsa a bhí i lathair an bhréith
Agus an Mhaighdean úd, mar mheasaim, 'as a gruaidg aici á stathadh
Nuair a síneadh chúichí é treasna ar a glúinibh go tréith

Very different song, isn't it? I can see why Áine Ó Cheallaigh had an "aithrí" in her head!

There are some references given to manuscript and journal sources - I haven't had a chance to follow these.

In passing: While looking for this in the archive, I came across a fascinating book called "Poets and Poetry of Munster", published in 1860 under the pseudonym "Erionnach". It incluydes a version of the more common song - with some splendidly eccentric comments!

Regards

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eistigh liomsa sealad
From: MartinRyan
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 04:15 PM

Sorry about the formatting. Joe?

Regards

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eistigh liomsa sealad
From: Áine
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 10:40 AM

Maith thú, a Mháirtín! Thank you so much for sharing your research with us. I haven't had a chance to see if this version matches the one that Iarla sings, but will do today and let you know. I think I like this version more than the others we've discovered. The poetry is very good, and the rhythm of the words is so smooth, yet at the same time, evocative.

Now you can't leave us wondering what all those splendidly eccentric comments are! I'd love to see those, too (of course, after you've let your poor tired fingers have a rest).

Go raibh maith agat arís, Áine

(Agus fuair mé do litir san phost inné. Buíochas duit as an ghar a rinne tú domh. Caithfidh mé cúpla lá a thabhairt isteach an seanchló an-ornáideach a aistriú agus níl mé cleachta leis. Ach nach breá an dúshlán é?)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eistigh liomsa sealad
From: GUEST,Angun
Date: 13 Aug 00 - 08:41 AM

Hi, THANKS A MILLION Martin! And a BIG thank you to all the others that have been looking for this song!

I`ve just arrived from 3 wonderful weeks in Ireland!!

Thanks again!!

All the best, Angun

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eistigh liomsa sealad
From: MartinRyan
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 02:38 PM

The introduction to the version in "Eirronach"'s book (1860)goes as follows:

Mr. Hardiman, in his Irish Minstrelsy says that the hero of this song was Colonel John O'Dwyer, a distinguished officer who commanded in the counties of Waterford and Tipperary in 1651 and soon after embarked at the former port with 500 of his faithful followers for Spain.

Notwithstanding Mr. Hardiman's authority as to the identification of the author of the song in question, some doubts may be entertained from the fact of another Shane O'Dwyer turning up recently in a learned paper of the Munster Bards, published in the Ulster Journal of Archaeology for April, where the writer introduces a quotation from a jury presentment made in the county of Cork in Nov. 1584, and preserved in the Carew Manuscript deposited in the British Museum, showing how the Earl of Desmond's rents were paid, and giving the names of no fewer than 72 persons who were living as "poets, chroniclers and rhymers in that country". Among the rest, mention is made of one "Shane O'Dwyrer, chronicler de Aharalagh", which must be the Glen of Aherlow, near Bansha in the county of Tipperary, and not "Arlo foret, celebrated by Spenser" as the writer suspects.

This Shane O'Dwyrer recte O'Dwyer evidently must be the author or hero of the song and not Mr. Hardiman's Colonel O'Dwyer. It is a curous fact that among the names of the 72 bards quoted, there appears that of "Mary-ny-Donoghue, a she-barde and Mary-ny-Clancye, a rimer". So that the bardic profession was not entirely confined to the males among the ancient Irish - the females having thier inspiration too."

The text presented, in Irish and metrical English, has the following footnote on pronunciation:

"There may be some of my readers to whom these Irish names will cause inconvenience and who would prefer to see them printed as they are pronounced. To gratify such a desire would be to outrage all rules of intellectual culture and philology. In any standard translation from foreign language is not their orthography preserved in its integrity? The same argument applies with equal - nay superior - force to the language of our own country. Here, there are innumerable opportunities for acquiring the true pronunciation of Irish words, which students of foreign languages have not, and in this book I have been careful to give the mere English reader all possible assistance, by printing the pronunciation in notes. I confess, however, that I consider it extremely ill-judged and despicable to write gibberish in place of Irish words, in the translations, merely to save trouble to the indolent or contentiously ignorant."

Regards

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eistigh liomsa sealad
From: MartinRyan
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 06:02 PM

p.s.

Angun

Where did you get to in Ireland? FInd any good music?

Regards

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eistigh liomsa sealad
From: GUEST,Angun
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 03:23 AM

P.S. MartinRyan,

I traveled around ; Dublin, Waterford, Ring /in Waterford), Galway, Boyle, Dun Luiche ( in Donegal) to mention some of the places... Met some really good singers, and went to concerts with bands like Solas and Danú. Both fantasic bands! I also heard a concert in Galway called "Guth na mara", with music from Connemara, and with some really good Connemara singers (and musicians).

Want to go back soon.......

All the best, Angun

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eistigh liomsa sealad
From: Brendy
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 03:27 AM

Was Mick McAuley playing box (accordion) with Solas, when you heard them, Angun?

Glad you enjoyed yourself, by the way.

B.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eistigh liomsa sealad
From: GUEST,Angun
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 03:34 AM

Hi Brendy,

Yes, Mick McAyley played, and he's really good!

Angun

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eistigh liomsa sealad
From: Brendy
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 03:37 AM

Ha ha, what a guy!

B.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eistigh liomsa sealad
From: Áine
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 08:30 AM

Dear Martin,

I can't thank you enough for the wonderful information in your latest posts. Do you know the name of the author of the article in the Ulster Journal of Archaeology? I know that I'll be wanting to use the quote about ". . . I consider it extremely ill-judged and despicable to write gibberish in place of Irish words, in the translations, merely to save trouble to the indolent or contentiously ignorant." Brilliant! And is there any chance of me being able to get a copy of the Journal myself?

Le meas is mise, Áine

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eistigh liomsa sealad
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 07:49 AM

Áine

The text gives no details of the reference - I'll see if I can find out. John Moulden might know where to look.

Regards

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eistigh liomsa sealad
From: Áine
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 08:58 AM

A Mháirtín,

Go raibh míle maith agat. And do you know if the Journal is available for subscription?

-- Áine

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eistigh liomsa sealad
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 26 Aug 00 - 06:44 AM

'Áine
Go raibh maith agat as do chinealtas. Bhí mé i dTír Chonaill le mí anuas "ar lorg m'anama" mar a déarfá.
As for the date of composition of my version of "ÉISTIG LIOMSA SEALAD", the internal evidence seems to suggest a year subequent to the granting of Catholic Emancipation in 1839, when the drive for Irish independence replaced the religious question in O'Connell's plans.
Annraoi

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eistigh liomsa sealad
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 29 Jun 02 - 09:43 AM

I think there are other threads about Seán Ó Duibhir a' Ghleanna, Seán O'Dwyer of the Glen.
I refreshed this thread because I've just been looking at a folk song journal index provided on-line by Bruce Olson and I spotted the following reference:Éshtig liúm-sa shealad| Shean Ó Dyr A Ghleana [John O'Dwyer of the Glen. by Warren of Kilkenny, c 1814]; JFSS 25, p. 282, 1921

JFSS = Journal of the Folk Song Society

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eistigh liomsa sealad
From: David Ingerson
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 02:47 AM

I was just doing some research on Seán Ó Duibhir a' Ghleanna and came upon this fascinating and informative thread. I've nothing to add about the song or the man, but I noticed that Martin Ryan (Hi, Martin!), Annraoi, and Áine lamented not being able to find An tAmhrán Macarónach by Diarmaid Ó Muirithe. Just by chance I found a copy in the bookstore of Cultúrlann on Falls Rd. in Belfast about 10 months ago. I bought it not knowing it was a hard-to-find book. I have no idea if they have more, but just knowing that new copies are floating around here and there might be heartening.

Cheers,

David

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eistigh liomsa sealad
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 08:02 AM

Hi David

I've had a copy for a long time. In my book-collecting days (I'm almost cured now...), I used to see copies of it occasionally at bookfairs and the like. A fine book.

Regards