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Newbies vs Old-timers

The Shambles 16 Mar 00 - 06:57 AM
Hyperabid 16 Mar 00 - 08:23 AM
Little Neophyte 16 Mar 00 - 08:32 AM
GUEST,Neil Lowe 16 Mar 00 - 08:58 AM
wysiwyg 16 Mar 00 - 09:23 AM
wysiwyg 16 Mar 00 - 09:31 AM
catspaw49 16 Mar 00 - 09:48 AM
wysiwyg 16 Mar 00 - 09:58 AM
Mary in Kentucky 16 Mar 00 - 10:10 AM
MMario 16 Mar 00 - 10:17 AM
Art Thieme 16 Mar 00 - 10:46 AM
Molly Malone 16 Mar 00 - 10:50 AM
Lady McMoo 16 Mar 00 - 11:05 AM
GUEST,Neil Lowe 16 Mar 00 - 11:13 AM
Mbo 16 Mar 00 - 11:57 AM
catspaw49 16 Mar 00 - 12:17 PM
Amos 16 Mar 00 - 12:32 PM
Hyperabid 16 Mar 00 - 12:39 PM
Elektra 16 Mar 00 - 12:54 PM
Bill D 16 Mar 00 - 12:54 PM
GUEST,Neil Lowe 16 Mar 00 - 01:05 PM
MMario 16 Mar 00 - 01:08 PM
Amos 16 Mar 00 - 01:12 PM
catspaw49 16 Mar 00 - 01:13 PM
Elektra 16 Mar 00 - 01:19 PM
MMario 16 Mar 00 - 01:37 PM
Amos 16 Mar 00 - 01:38 PM
paddymac 16 Mar 00 - 01:41 PM
paddymac 16 Mar 00 - 01:48 PM
Molly Malone 16 Mar 00 - 01:57 PM
MMario 16 Mar 00 - 02:05 PM
Molly Malone 16 Mar 00 - 02:09 PM
M. Ted (inactive) 16 Mar 00 - 02:09 PM
GutBucketeer 16 Mar 00 - 02:11 PM
Elektra 16 Mar 00 - 02:41 PM
katlaughing 16 Mar 00 - 02:57 PM
Froodo 16 Mar 00 - 02:57 PM
MMario 16 Mar 00 - 03:03 PM
GUEST,Les B 16 Mar 00 - 03:08 PM
catspaw49 16 Mar 00 - 03:16 PM
MMario 16 Mar 00 - 03:19 PM
catspaw49 16 Mar 00 - 03:24 PM
Molly Malone 16 Mar 00 - 03:36 PM
MMario 16 Mar 00 - 03:39 PM
Molly Malone 16 Mar 00 - 03:52 PM
catspaw49 16 Mar 00 - 03:55 PM
Molly Malone 16 Mar 00 - 04:04 PM
wysiwyg 16 Mar 00 - 04:04 PM
MMario 16 Mar 00 - 04:20 PM
M. Ted (inactive) 16 Mar 00 - 04:32 PM
wysiwyg 16 Mar 00 - 04:56 PM
Bill D 16 Mar 00 - 06:18 PM
M. Ted (inactive) 16 Mar 00 - 08:08 PM
GUEST,ceitagh 16 Mar 00 - 09:09 PM
alison 16 Mar 00 - 09:19 PM
GUEST,Whoever You Think I Am 16 Mar 00 - 09:29 PM
Amos 16 Mar 00 - 09:35 PM
GUEST,ceitagh 16 Mar 00 - 09:47 PM
MMario 16 Mar 00 - 09:53 PM
alison 16 Mar 00 - 09:55 PM
Pelrad 16 Mar 00 - 10:10 PM
Bill in Alabama 16 Mar 00 - 11:00 PM
Escamillo 17 Mar 00 - 01:51 AM
wysiwyg 17 Mar 00 - 01:59 AM
Escamillo 17 Mar 00 - 03:08 AM
wysiwyg 17 Mar 00 - 03:50 AM
Hyperabid 17 Mar 00 - 05:21 AM
Rick Fielding 17 Mar 00 - 11:14 AM
MMario 17 Mar 00 - 11:40 AM
Amos 17 Mar 00 - 11:43 AM
GUEST,Jack (who is called Jack) 17 Mar 00 - 01:06 PM
wysiwyg 17 Mar 00 - 02:52 PM
wysiwyg 17 Mar 00 - 03:12 PM
Lonesome EJ 17 Mar 00 - 03:38 PM
Amos 17 Mar 00 - 03:48 PM
Joe Offer 17 Mar 00 - 04:18 PM
M. Ted (inactive) 17 Mar 00 - 04:29 PM
Amos 17 Mar 00 - 04:35 PM
Peter T. 17 Mar 00 - 04:51 PM
Joe Offer 17 Mar 00 - 04:57 PM
Amos 17 Mar 00 - 05:24 PM
Peter T. 17 Mar 00 - 05:33 PM
Joe Offer 17 Mar 00 - 05:42 PM
Escamillo 17 Mar 00 - 11:46 PM
Mary in Kentucky 18 Mar 00 - 12:19 AM
wysiwyg 18 Mar 00 - 01:18 AM
Little Neophyte 18 Mar 00 - 01:38 AM
wysiwyg 18 Mar 00 - 02:13 AM
Thomas the Rhymer 18 Mar 00 - 12:10 PM
Lonesome EJ 18 Mar 00 - 02:15 PM
wysiwyg 18 Mar 00 - 02:34 PM
wysiwyg 18 Mar 00 - 02:36 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Mar 00 - 04:07 PM
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Subject: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 06:57 AM

Despite the combative nature of the title of this thread its intention is not to further divide Mudcatter's. For I don't generally like to use the terms 'old-timers' or 'newbies' or even think in that way. I do use 'old curmudgeons' but that is an affectionate term, I would welcome young curmudgeons too. .

This thread is, to air an issue that I feel is bubbling away, in order that it may be addressed. There is some 'thread creep' toward this subject in this excellent thread Help Oral Tradition. For it is an issue that I have been caught in the crossfire of, recently.

In a current thread, I posted a link to an earlier one, on a similar subject and was asked if, by doing that, I was saying "been there, done that"? It can be seen in that way but I honestly did not think that I was saying that. Given some of the comments that I have seen about the arrival of another 'What is folk' thread and criticism of posts concerning the "never heard a horse sing it" quote, from folk who should know better. I can now see how my actions could easily be viewed as that. Whatever my motives, I console myself with the fact that putting the link there and giving people the choice to read it, was at least a positive action.

Mudcatter's cannot pretend that they have not seen or discussed a subject before but if they have nothing helpful to do or nothing positive to say, then it is probably better that they should say nothing. It would be at least a jolly good idea to read the new thread. Some people, to their great credit, have managed to add something positive and fresh to just about every 'What is folk' tread that I have ever seen here, and they are the ones, setting the very best example.

Cynical comments about, new posters, in effect, just being and acting new, is not the best example to set and will be counter-productive.

.

New posters have no real way of knowing (without trawling through all the past postings), that the point they are making is not original and not the first time it has been expressed here.

New posters are not a 'bonus' to The Mudcat Forum, they are The Mudcat Forum. In the same way that all Mudcatter's were new posters at one time. Some of the more 'sensible' posts on this thread Evolving Mudcat will demonstrate this process.

In reality there are no 'groupings' here. Some may be lucky and live together or at least close by, but when we post and read, we are all just ('sad'), individuals looking in to a PC monitor. It is not quite as bleak as that but I think it is easy to forget sometimes and it is not an entirely bad thing.

As George Orwell said "All animals are equal" but I for one, can tolerate honest (if unoriginal) views on the singing abilities of horses, a little better than ones on the comic possibilities of 'tired' possums.


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Hyperabid
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 08:23 AM

I am I would guess reasonably new to this forum having used it briefly for the first time a few months ago before being hooked and reeled in.

I guess I object to neither young curthingy or newbie... and I would have to say that everybody has been very courteous, helpful and complimentary about my ditherings on various threads. (Although I would say that the Gun debate threads are only a place to go if you can smile when others passions are aroused).

I am wholly impressed by the strength of this site and wish I had found it a long time ago. It is a fine reference and an opportunity to float ideas musical and otherwise in a supportive environment before trying them out in public. (You know - the kind of public where people throw things if they don't like what you're singing / saying).

What more could you ask for?

All musical sites should have a link to the mudcat!

Cheers.

Hyp


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 08:32 AM

Shambles, this is an important topic.
I guess with so many types of Mudcat personalities you are going to get all kinds of responses to topics that have been discussed time and time again.
Some people will be tired of reading continually repeated topics and they will clearly let you know this. Not much you can do about that.

Some new light will always shine on any old subject. There are those who will sift through the postings to find refreshing thoughts and new insight.

The postings I aspire to the most are from the genuine teachers. Some Mudcatters have a natural gift to teach. They have the patience to explain the same answers over and over again. We should cherish these Mudcatters, for their gift of giving.
These teachers are a great inspiration and to them I would like to say thank you for I am truly grateful.

Little Neo


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: GUEST,Neil Lowe
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 08:58 AM

All salient points, Shambles, and in principle I am generally intolerant of intolerance (do you hear a "but" trailing along, waiting to make its premiere?)....

But when one starts the process of creating a new thread, one has the option (advertised in big bold letters, no less) of searching the Forum or the Digital Tradition first before posting a new thread. How often do you suppose this option is utilized before someone creates his/her thread?

I ashamedly admit to being so lazy as to not use this option myself. I started a thread just a few days ago inquiring about blues guitarist Rory Gallagher. Before posting the first message the thought crossed my mind, maybe someone has posted about this before. Then the old rationalization machine went into action: Nah, I check the 'Cat almost every day. I would've remembered seeing something on Rory Gallagher. And my short, stubby little fingers went to work. Just out of curiosity I went back and did a search after starting the thread - lo and behold someone had made mention of Rory. Not exactly the same stuff as the topic of my thread, so I didn't have to chastise myself too badly. But I think I'll search the Forum or DigiTrad next time before starting a new thread. And if the person in question had done the same thing before starting his/her thread on (for example) "What is Folk," that person would've been well equipped to then start a thread along the lines of: "I have read the posts regarding the 'What is Folk' debate and I have a perspective that may have been overlooked," or something to that effect, which would've made far more interesting reading to the "old-timers" who are passionate about that subject. Otherwise, I think a link, such as you provided, is a helpful thing to do for the originator of the thread, and in no way demonstrates annoyance with the topic.

My two farthings...interesting thread Shambles.

Regards, Neil


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 09:23 AM

I think I am the latest newbie to lose her newbie status and so I especially want to address this while it's fresh. But time is short at the moment. So I'll just make a start and say more later.

There is nothing like being new, to anything, to give one a fresh sense of what is possible.

Some people are better at welcoming new people to a going concern, than others.

Some people are more graceful at arriving and being welcomed than others.

The BEST welcoming I've had here has been welcoming that helped me be in charge of my own being-here, by giving information and encouragement, and by hanging in when I felt unsure about how I fit in.

The WORST welcoming has been the rush to respond to me as though I am one-dimensional, with whatever long-saved stereotypes, positive or negative, people have about what kinda critter I am. YES I invited that, and have made lots of important connections with people in the process, but everyone here seems one-dimensional just at first. That's true of newcomers and veteran members-- you see what I first present, and I see what I first see of you. I would suspect that here in the virtual environment, where all we have to see is often words, the usual effect of first impressions is enhanced by the medium.

But it is also true that if you stick around, and have any flexibility in your nake-up at all, this place also lends itself fabulously well to the debunking of the stereotypes. (See my recent de-newbification at the tavern, somewhat consciously sought but assisted beyond my wildest hopes).

Incorporating new people just is complicated. It's that way in any setting-- ask me about new-member incorporation at church!!! Here, a hand is a powerful tool. Friendly hands or unfriendly-- people come here more wide open than I see them in the 3-D world. Friendliness and unfriendliness are both more compelling here than out "there."

Well it was going to be short, but it may get longer yet.


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 09:31 AM

Make [flexibility in your nake-up] flexibility in your MAKE-UP, sorry!


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 09:48 AM

Guilty as charged Shambles.

I think Neil has, eloquently as always, made the point I would have wished to make. Sure, I get worn with the folk discussions, but as new people come along, they DO often add different perspectives. But we also have some people come along who simply throw up the same old tired cliches. OK, I can understand that to a degree. What truly set me off was a post saying that the writer wasn't going to bother reading anything else and then stating an opinion which had been put forth dozens upon dozens of times before as though it were an original thought!!!

I know I may be the biggest smart-assed jerk in the place, but on those times when I welcome new folks, generally one line I always include concerns researching old threads. I read this forum and many old threads for almost three months before I made my first post. I'm not suggesting that as some sort of requirement, but to totally negate everything that has been said here........?????? I like Neil's line above re: "I have a perspective which may have been overlooked" after reading what has been said before. Indeed, different perspectives and ideas come up EVERY time and there are new ones in the two threads running now regarding "folk." We will probably always have repeated topics here....its only natural. I would ask only that those posting might spend a bit of time backchecking first.

Neil, once again, you have made a wonderful point in a fine manner. Thank you for your clarity, the Prozac must be working! (:<))

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 09:58 AM

But Spaw, you are also one of the quickest and nicest welcomers here-- when you groan it just doesn't have as much sting as when it comes from someone who usually lurks then posts pissy objections to same-old same-olds.

I would also point out that in that first flush of newness, you really don't even know what the place is or how it's so elegantly fashioned to let you use it gracefully--- what has helped me the most with that has actually BEEN the same-old same-old threads, where veterans post clickies to the old stuff or say how to go look up topics. It's a BIG candy store-- you can fall into a sugar swoon at the first counter and never make it back to the *rear* section!

~~Soft smiles~~


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 10:10 AM

Here is a post I put up months ago (with the new italics I learned here)

...in the meantime...I find it very helpful when some of the "Old Timers" remember a previous thread and put a link to it in the current thread. Somehow it seems that all our computerization just can't match a person's memory...and of course a Mudcatter's generous willingness to share. I stumbled onto this thread from a link in another thread.

Just last night I had some info to share in the classical music/folk thread, and because the info I wanted to highlight wasn't in the title of the original thread, only my memory and a little searching could dig it out. When we get the SuperSearch back we can search the bodies of messages. But as I stated, there really is no substitute for a Mudcatter's memory and willingness to share.

I also feel I can contribute by doing some of this info-finding and thus giving the "pros" more time for their wonderful insights and comments.

Mary


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: MMario
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 10:17 AM

I think the marvel of the MudCat is that there IS such a diveristy of people, and of talents, and of resources. Some have access to hardcopy research materials, others have the time and resources to do web research, others have the wealth of decades of experience to draw on. The Mudcat includes the enthusiasm of the young and the new, the dedication of the tried and true, boundless enthusiasm and tempered cyniscism.


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Art Thieme
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 10:46 AM

"Tried and true..."---yes. But "tired and true"---yes also ! ;-)

Art


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Molly Malone
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 10:50 AM

I would be nice if we knew, on average, how many new "Catters" we get every week. I still consider myself a "newbie" to this site, though I'm no newbie to music or internet forums, and I'll admit to posting the same-ol' ame-ol'. I do this for two reasons: 1) It gives the newer folks an opportunity to speak their piece, and 2) It gives the not-so-newbies an opportunity to place their blue-clicky's worth so that information doesn't remain buried. That's why I'm here. I never, ever want this information to die. I want my great-great grand children to have access to the knowledge I have and more importantly, all of you have.

There are some incredible minds here...and unfortunately I'm not bloody likely to go to Australia or Ireland to meet you any time soon. You may have said it a thousand times over, but I want to know that my generations to come will know what folk music is.

(...she says as she steps off of her soap box, humming the words to Pass It On.)

Hy ly dy di da dy dy, da da dum Hy ly dy di da dy day dum.


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 11:05 AM

....whoops!

Sorry...thought this was a football thread!

mcmoo


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: GUEST,Neil Lowe
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 11:13 AM

Wellbutrin, 'Spaw, Wellbutrin...that and laying off the sauce. No particular reason, just thought I'd try sobriety for a while. It feels so weird I'm starting to get off on it. Gracias for the compliments, Spawmeister. A good one to you.

Neil


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Mbo
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 11:57 AM

Thanks for the support, but even as one approaching 1-year membership status, I'm still pretty much not as improtant a component of this place as say, Rick Fielding or McGrath of Harlow. I am encouraged to add input on various teaching threads about chords, playing style, tips on performance, but my words are pretty much ignored or attacked. I'm sorry I don't have the long years of experience and eloquent words to state my musical advice and theories. Sorry I can't be of more help to what this forum is obviously REALLY about. So if you don't mind, I'll be on my way to the Mudcat Tavern now, and after that the other BS threads that everyone hates and I thrive in so well.

--Mbo


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 12:17 PM

People may enjoy ragging you Meebo....I do.....but you have always had a place here. This place has lots of nooks and crannies and they are filled with people who have "knowledge of the nook" so to speak (as opposed to knowledge of the nookie which ain't your forte). See, I love to rag your ass!!!

Seriously......the talent, caring, and knowledge that are here on so many subjects, music and otherwise, is simply amazing. I'm consistently left in awe of the depth and breadth of the accumulated knowledge and the often overwhelming empathy and compassion of the 'Cat.

Of course the complete jerkwad jagovs have a place too...mainly being jerkwad jagovs.

Spaw

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Amos
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 12:32 PM

Mebbe we could get a single web page full of orientation and starter links. If ye can't love 'em, FAQ 'em to death ...


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Hyperabid
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 12:39 PM

No please love us A...

Although an orientation on sign up would be good.

Hyp


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Elektra
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 12:54 PM

What I have been wondering is, (as though Max & co don't have enough to do) how come we don't have a FAQ link from the main page? While (as some of you may have noticed -- or not, thanks to Joe)*grin* HTML markups are not exactly my forte. However, I would be happy to attempt creating at least the text portion... and take a stab at the rest, if Joe or Max will hold my hand.

Answer to questions could include both basic info AND links to old threads, where relevant.

At the top of my list would be "how do I embed a blue clicky thing in my messages?" ;-)

It could include (or link to) basic DT search rules, i.e. use of [phrase matching] as well as thread naming conventions, etc... kind of a "crash course in Mudcat/DT", perhaps broken down by technical (how do I?)vs. social questions ("local" netiquette).

By allowing newbies to be initally directed to the FAQ, this will hopefully cut down on
a)aggravation for those who have "been there, done that";
b)frustration for the newcomers who may feel somewhat lost and/or discouraged; and,
c)endless rehashing of old topics.

Not that we aren't generally an encouraging crew. =) Then, once have read the FAQ if they still have questions they will know how to (hopefully) title the thread appropriately and otherwise feel more free to join in discussions.

*Whew!* Sorry, didn't mean to write an essay. Whatcha think?

*elektra*


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 12:54 PM

ah, Amos...I lobbied for a FAQ on posting, searching, the database, the menus...etc. 2 or 3 years ago, till I was blue in the face! I STILL think it is needed. One clicky thing labeled "Go here to see explanations of this place and how things are done" (or a more compact version)...I offered to help Joe and others write it. But, although there are little menus with some help, nothing comprehensive has ever been done. Of course, when someone ASKS, they usually get some answers, but these are often random and not always timely. A link to a page that is accessable ANYTIME would save a LOT of typing and posting of old threads//(though some of those old threads ARE excellent guides...they just need to be all in one place)


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: GUEST,Neil Lowe
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 01:05 PM

I don't see it so much as a contest for status among the well-entrenched, talented, knowledgeable members ... hell, I ain't even a member. I'm entitled to my opinions, and I consider them to be just as valid or invalid as anyone else's on topics of a general nature. And if something I submit or contribute is ignored or attacked, so what? If it is ignored, maybe I will conclude it is his/her loss. If it is attacked, maybe the antagonist will enlighten me. I would obviously defer to Bruce O., for example, on the origins of a particular song, as it is evident from his postings that he devotes time to researching such things, whereas I have not a clue...and to others (come to think of it, just about everybody) like Rick Fielding or Art Thieme on the nature of professional recording, or the notes to a particularly difficult passage, or how to teach guitar...these guys live this stuff - I just give it a nod now and then. Who'm I to argue or disagree with them on these specific topics? That would be rather pompous. Nonetheless, I can have a dissenting (but silent) opinion on these subjects, nor am I bound to take every piece of advice given to me. Selfishly, I get more than my money's worth every time I log on here. If I sit on my hands and keep my eyes open, I just might learn something. And most of the time, if I start a thread, it's to pick 'Catters' brains about something. This Forum is a great resource for my edification. I don't know enough to contribute to the knowledge base, and maybe I should feel guilty for being a "bandwidth waster." But hopefully with enough immersions into the vast pool of diverse sources available here....well, who knows.

Regards, Neil


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: MMario
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 01:08 PM

It isn't the writing of such a thing that is the problem, but the maintainence. And I think that may be why you haven't seen one. But should someone be willing to spend the time and effort to write AND MAINTAIN a faq/guide/introduction I bet you would find that it would quickly be supported by a power that be...


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Amos
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 01:12 PM

A consensus for Joe, Max and Bert to chew on -- a Central Map with guideposts for the New -- well, great idea.

I would think we would want to limit the top level to ten (an arbitrary number) main concepts. Here are some possibilities:

1. Welcome to the Mudcat, by Max

2. Looking for Songs (which goes to a page on using the DT, checking the MIDI resource, etc.

3. Talking Music (how threads work, how to post, what kinds of music get discussed, a list of major past threads maybe (about music)...all on one separate page.

4. Talking Anything (Discussion of BS threads, the range and scope and depth of depravity to be found therein, what the mudcat Tavern is, link over to past major threads, list of characters (Cletus, Cleigh and other figmentii)

5. The History of the Cat (includes what a mudcat is, why the banjo, max's Dream, and other funny historical points including a discussion of the sad diaspora that happened after the Evil Garg began his ministrations of toxins in Eden back in whenever (99?) and how to research mudcat history.

6. More about Mudcatters (bbc's Mudcat Resources)

7. Blue Clicky What? (basics of br, href, and so forth and links to further HTML guidance.)

Well, whaddya think? Maybe someone could start drumming up some free web space and designing some pages with graphics for this area.

I think Áine's probably got her hands full with kids and fesity, whiny songmeisters. Whose game?

A


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 01:13 PM

Oh good......"ANOTHER gawddamn thread on the need for an FAQ," the curmudgeonly and rude Spaw grumbled.

LMAOWROTF!!!!!!!!! But we do need something and there have been several good attempts but they are mainly in bits and pieces at this point. Jeri, Alice, and of course Dick and others have done sections, but a coherent collection of these would be great with a basic explanation of what's what. When the Super Search is back up, doing one would be a lot easier....maybe I'll even take a shot at it. BUT until then, let's talk about it!!!LOL.......Say, what about another discussion on Mudcat hats?!?!?!?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Elektra
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 01:19 PM

MMario -

Obviously, thus far the setting up HAS been a problem. I mean, an infrequently updated FAQ is better than none at all -- and I ain't seen a-one yet.

Once it is set up I believe the maintenance really won't be much of an issue. Oh, there'll be some initial tweaking for sure, but I would be willing to do something pretty comprehensive. After that the revisions shouldn't be more than occasional.

I suppose I could volunteer for the maintenance as well, but I'm afraid my attendance record is pretty flaky here. Then again, an infreqently updated... *big grin*

*elektra*


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: MMario
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 01:37 PM

difference of opinion here, but *IMO* an infrequently updated and/or poorly maintained FAQ is WORSE (MUCH worse) then none at all....

I feel the only thing MORE frustrating then having to search and hunt for your answers is to have the answers posted and the links etc be WRONG.

and we all KNOW how quickly stuff can change around here....


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Amos
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 01:38 PM

Geeziz, rude and curmudgeonly Spaw, whyn'cha go blow a possum? Here we're trying to do sumpn PRO-active an' all you got is snide remarks... I'm gonna sic Praise on you to re-MEE-diate yore internal dissonances... git your kneepads out, mate!


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: paddymac
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 01:41 PM

One of the marvelous attributes of the M'cat family is the way in which subtle humor is often used to great positive effect. A case in point is Mcmoo's post above. I was intently reading my way through the mostly profound commentary, and when I reached his post I just sat and chuckled for a minute. It had the effect of completely "refreshing" my mind, saying to me "let's not take ourselves quite so seriously." Anyone wo has ever been in the role of "teacher" knows the joy of teaching students to think, instead of simply propounding dogma and cliches. Some "students" take longer than others to cross that bridge, but it's the mental nurturing by the "teacher" that helps it happen. That, dear friends, is what I see as the central value of Mudcat - the "teacher-student" relationship thriving in a way that might be next to impossible in the formality of a classroon setting, because interactions here are more in the nature of "among peers".


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: paddymac
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 01:48 PM

Just read Escamillo's post on the current Amazing Grace" thread and thought it appropriate to add his phrasing to this thread. He expressed much the same thoughts I shared above, but ever so much more simply when he spoke of the "ENRICHMENT of my musical tastes and knowledge" at the 'cat. Well said, Andres.


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Molly Malone
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 01:57 PM

How about anyone without a cookie goes to the Intro/FAQ page whenever they load the page. Cookie holders go straight to forum home.

...(she says with a giggle and hides behind a table before the evil 'Spaw monster comes to attack.)


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: MMario
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 02:05 PM

hmmmmm, if that CAN be done, it sounds like a good idea. AND it would encourage peoples to sign up.


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Molly Malone
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 02:09 PM

Really???

I was kidding.

I hate it when that happens.

*G*


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 02:09 PM

I think the best things about Mudcat are:

1) Plenty of people who have been around music for a while and don't hesitate to share what they know 2) People usually don't make an issue much about whether someone is new to the group or not when they are responding to them


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 02:11 PM

one easy fix on the topic of duplicate postings would to have an automatic search be performed on the words in the title before once they are entered. The poster could then go ahead with the post or not as they saw fit. I don't know if this is even possible. It's just a thought.

With regards to newbies and oldsters. If the metaphors of some of the other threads hold and we are like an extended village or family then the oldsers are sort of like the elders. They can/should gently direct newbies as they learn to toddle/walk/run in the Mudcat. They, by their example, should teach the etiquette of the Mudcat. What behavior is accepted, or not accepted. Then in turn, the newbies become oldsters and teach the "tradition" (maybe even culture is a better word) to the next generation.

As with the real world every generation has to learn the same things, and asks the same questions, over and over again. And as in the real world the answers slowly change/evolve over time.

My 2 cents

JAB


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Elektra
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 02:41 PM

MMario --

While I DO, in many cases agree with you, Re: infrequent updates, my point was that since all the links would be internal, i.e. to other pages in the FAQ, or to threadid's, broken links shouldn't be a problem as a rule.

The only time that is might be an issue was if at some point Max changed the URL for threads and/or made some MAJOR changes to the site, thus rendering significant portions of the FAQ obsolete. At that point, if no one was willing to update the FAQ it could always be removed again. Not that I feel this is by any means the best solution... but anyway, I would probably be willing to do it then, too.

*elektra*


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 02:57 PM

Joining Spaw in kicking up some litter...last I heard on the radio, Bert was supposed to be doing a FAQ page and Jeri did some fantastic diagrams with blue clickies to all kinds of info, in some thread, somewhere.**BG**


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Froodo
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 02:57 PM

Thank you to all of you who know how to put those blue clicky things there, you put us newbies in touch with additional info. above and beyond the thread at hand. We should always contine to interact with the threads no matter how many times we've seen them before. Each new time we have the opportunity to learn from fresh ideas and reinforce and refine our own. In short, I wouldn't want it any other way.


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: MMario
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 03:03 PM

elecktra - basically playing devil's advocate....*grin* it's a gray gray day out and it's seeping inwards, if you know what I mean.

As kat said, I think Bert's suppossed to be working on a fag...why don't you PM him with whatever you can work up? I bet he wouldn't say no!


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: GUEST,Les B
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 03:08 PM

If not a FAQ, then perhaps some kind of lumping of similar topics under chapter headings by content analysis -- like "What is Folk," "BS threads." "Possum abusers," etc. that could be accessed and assessed quickly before launching a "new" old hat subject. It seems to me Amos is on the right track. While I am amazed, amused, and sometimes concerned by the depth (and once in a while the shallowness) of Mudcat threads, I enjoy reading through them and would hate to see any kind of censorship of thought. But, after having lurked around Mudcat for over two years I have started to get that deja vu feeling all over again that I used to experience in photographic magazines; about every 18 months they recycle "gee whiz" stories on What is Depth of Field, Medium Format VS Large Format, etc. ad nauseum. With a little bit of computer cleverness perhaps that feeling can be avoided.


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 03:16 PM

Geeziz Mario....I had no idea!!!! Bert is working on a fag? Does Tree know of this? I suppose you were the one who outted Gargoyle too........figures. You need some lessons in non-social interaction from Clinton H. don't you think???

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: MMario
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 03:19 PM

oops! No one was suppossed to know he smokes!


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 03:24 PM

Oh he's smokin' alright Mario..........Let's not play the cigarette meaning simply because Bertie's a Brit. ANd what of that name....Bertie.....I should have guessed. Has Max any info that's useful on this? Is there a reason Max always seems relaxed and is smoking a cigarette at the beginning of the radio show? And what of that strip thing..........

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Molly Malone
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 03:36 PM

I'd like to see the FAQ start out with the Adventures of Cleigh.

Or would that be misadventures.


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: MMario
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 03:39 PM

aw geez...she's tying to drag the thread back on topic. What a spoilsport....

What about it 'spaw? Cleigh ready to write his memoirs?


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Molly Malone
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 03:52 PM

Am too!

Could the cookie thing actually work...and not cause a hugh headache to program? Sorrry, but that's a little outta my league there.


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 03:55 PM

Cleigh sends his love Molly, but the adventures are few and far between. And how many people want to hear about having someone blow up your ass? I think its something you need to experience to appreciate.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Molly Malone
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 04:04 PM

My, now that sounds like the voice of experience. *G*

Maybe it should read the misadventures of Spaw and trusty sidekick, Cleigh???


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 04:04 PM

Smathers, be so good as to take a memo.

... Let's see, what's the date here... humph humph .... you put that part in


To: Mudcat Senior Member Amos
CC: Mudcat Clear Pool Advocates Assn.
From: Manager, Prayer Department
Re: Potential Activities of Junior Member, Praise

From one thread creep to another, sir, may I object to your presumption in misrepresenting your supervisory capacity over my very junior associate, Praise.

Praise is not presently in possesion of orders regarding the activities to which you refer. Should her mission include such activities, it will be most helpful if this mission remains confidential.

Furthermore, she is already engaged in other missions which, I am sorry, cannot currently be divulged.

May I suggest, sir, that your wisest course in the absence of more complete information (which I regretfully cannot now supply) would be to leave the implementation of Praise's orders to her, as we are in close communication to ensure appropriate allocation of resources and to monitor progress toward the performance objectives entrusted to her.

If however you feel that you would like to discuss the particulars further, and possibly establish such a mission as you describe, I remain available to meet with you at any time, as well as...

Your Humble Servant


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: MMario
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 04:20 PM

I don't know molly, but if the cookie can be detected and put your name in and not give you the option to ...then I would think it could also trigger an "if then" decision as to which page to go to....but I don't know.


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 04:32 PM

I am not sure if we need a list of Frequently Asked Questions-what is the point? Since they are "frequently asked, someone bound to ask it-

What I want is a list of "Rarely Asked Questions"--Such as:

"Where can I get a folksinger haircut?"

"How do you make a fiddle case out of old socks?"

"What are your favorite zither songs?"

"Are the any folk songs about wheelbarrows?"

"Where can I find noseflute recordings of "Scotland the Brave"?

"Are there any traditional ballads that haven't been written yet?"

"Will it hurt my guitar if I fill it with popcorn?"

"What songs are easiest to play when you're real drunk?"

"Will it help my playing if I put one foot in a bowl?"


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 04:56 PM

LOL!! ROTFWLMAO!!!

M.Ted-- Please please pleeeeeze can I use these as thread names when it gets too boring here??? Please pleeeeeeeeeze! Or if not, will you????


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 06:18 PM

1) folksingers don't GET haircuts
2) we have a list of zither songs..Ferrara plays one quite well
3)I'll be glad to MAKE you a nose flute recording of "Scotland the Brave"...(mono or stereo? That is, one nostril, or two?)
4)Of course there are songs about wheelbarrows, but they are in code,,,disguised as buggy and wagon songs
5)re: popcorn...only if it's buttered
6)songs easiest to play when drunk are Rock & Roll songs
sorry about the fiddle case of old socks, I dont know that one,(Perhaps someone with large feet could help you.)

and about your playing... it may help if you tap your foot loudly...the bowl helps with accoustics


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 08:08 PM

Thank you for the answers, Bill--now I know why these questions are rarely asked--


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: GUEST,ceitagh
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 09:09 PM

on this topic (before the thread creeped) i'm a newbie and just posted a question on favorite whistle tunes which i guess has been asked before. no-one gave me their take on it, but i did get several links to web pages and threads.

links are great, but i woulda liked a bit of personal input, and maybe a bit of a welcome, if that's not asking to much. . a faq would be nice so i would know what questions not to ask, but it would also be nice to get answers to question from the mudact as it is now, not 6 or 12 months ago. i think this may have something to dowith why the BS threads are so much better attended than the on topic stuff.

pax ceit


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: alison
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 09:19 PM

Ceitagh,

I did welcome you, (and followed up your thread and replied again)and I gave you links to old threads where there is a wealth of information, and to tunes sites. at no point did I say...... "we've done this before- don't ask stupid questions"... Mudcat isn't like that... other sites may be....

but when there is a wealth of information already there it is wise to use it, therefore helpful people will point it out.... I hope many new points do come up in your thread, (I want to learn new tunes as much as the next person).... you will get more answers to your thread but it takes time - it has only been online for just over an hour..... sometimes it takes a while....

you asked a question on music.. you got answers on music, admittedly without the BS,... but if you chase up any of the links you'll find plenty of it. if people have already written out heaps on the subject they are unlikely to write it out again

sorry if we didn't lay out the red carpet well enough for you....

again I say "welcome to Mudcat" same as I did in the other thread.

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: GUEST,Whoever You Think I Am
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 09:29 PM

Reality check...to the newbies.

I came here quite a while ago at the urging of a friend.

At that time, there were knowledgable and ongoing discussions about every aspect of music, from both technical standpoints as well as the esoteric; some of the more memorable ones being discussions on different tone woods, glues, etc. etc.; the types of music that set you free; discussions on fingerpicking, etc. and there were a number of very experienced and knowledgable posters. I honestly thought I'd died and gone to heaven finding this place. (You can find these old threads in the archives, and perhaps this is why a number of them have deliberately resurfaced here lately, since these topics are largely igonored by the overall current community here.)

But at this point in time, make no mistake, it is NOT the same place. It has changed drastically in tone as well as content since before Christmas time.

The knowledgable experts who gave this place it's ''tone'' and by in large it's attraction (for me), have for the most part departed or lurk silently or, have resorted to comedy and ''buffoonery''.

As you glance around the thread listings on any given day, you will notice an abundance of postings in the threads pertaining to Bullshit (BS)..while the hardcore musical discussions die quickly with few respondents. T'was not always this way. In fact the forum is the exact anithesis of what it once was...and I have heard this from several of the ''old timers'' here.

If you come here for info on folk lyrics and info on traditional old time folk music, granted it is here, for the asking and the digging.

But, the standards on this forum in terms of what is good, and as to who has true talent...are abhorantly low, which make it hard to respect the comments posted, and the credibility of the poster. If you don't believe me, listen on any Wednesday night to the offerings on Mudcat Radio.
With few exceptions, you will understand, assuming you have ears, some taste and, an objective standard as a reference point.


This is not a forum for the serious musician hoping to better themselves and grow, and if you came here hoping for this, you will not find it, no matter how good and honorable the intentions of Max and few others, are. As Max (founder and host of this forum) has said The Mudcat forum is what its inhabitants choose to make of it.

This is now very much a cyber social club akin to a ladies afternoon tea, with elements that at times liken it to an ongoing soap opera and gossip column with a smattering of Jerry Faldwell, ''Praise The Lord Club'', ''South Park'', Mary Tyler Moore, and Richard Belzer all mixed into the brew.

The fact that some music and musical topics are discussed, has become purely incidental to the whole overall tone of this forum. Once upon a time, the B.S. was incidental to the music and related discussions.

For the most part, the people here are good salt-of-the-earth, kind, caring, intelligent and compassionate, and sure--humorous and witty individuals, ready to give their fellow 'Catters the shirts off of their collective backs...and open their hearts and collective souls (and in some cases homes) to all who care to venture to this place. This kind of openess is to be commended and is indeed rare in online publicly accessible forums in cyber space.

But, for me personally, it is not providing me with the impetus which originally led me here...so now it's time to move on, to other forums which are more tightly focused towards what was once the raison d'etre of this place...Mind you they will probably lack the overall warmth and openess of this forum, which admittedly can be addictive and, infectious.

But the longer I remain here, the more cynical and negative I become, and I think my energies should really directed towards a more positive light, even if it means tightening my focus, and getting into the more technical aspects of music. I fear that if I stay here, my standards will reach the common acceptable level on this forum where any old piece of music no matter how poorly executed, written, arranged, performed, or sung will be deemed ''good enough'', followed by the hearty encouragement of well-meaning, but an extremely naive and patronizing cyber community.

If you are deadly serious and really care about bettering yourself as a musician, this ain't the place to be. It is however a good place to make some interesting friends, if you need to fill that particular void, that is missing in your real (offline) life.

Best of luck.


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Amos
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 09:35 PM

MTed: Yer a crackup!! Let me catch my breath! LOL!

Dear Manager: I withdraw my offer to sic Praise on Spaw...I imagine she gets sicced quite enough working for someone who writes memos like that!

Sincerely,

First Deputy Curmudgeon


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: GUEST,ceitagh
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 09:47 PM

ouch!

firstly, thanks to those who *did* welcome me. i did not mean to send out a cry of "poor pity me!" with my comment on what posts i did recieve. i was somewhat disappointed, but that, i think, was more the result of unrealistic expectation than anything else. the reason i brought it up on this thread is because the on-topic threads *are* shorter than the BS....and i was wondering if this might have anything to do with the lack of freshness and 'bs' (so to speak) on the on topic threads. so, if i came across too strong, i apologise. i should perhaps have waited a while longer to post.

GUEST, i'm not ready to give up on the Mudcat. i've barely *been* here. i'd like to become a better musician, yes, but i'd like to do it somewhere where my feeble attempts will be recognised....i like the atmosphere of the mudcat, and i'll stick in here and see where it goes. who knows what it will be 6 months from now?

pax ceit


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: MMario
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 09:53 PM

ceitagh - I linked you to a place that has whistle notation in the other thread. I don't know what happenned to my other post, but sometimes links are put in because the people DON'T have the knowledge, but know where the answer is. Or they have the anser, but don't want to clutter the thread by repeating what's already in the forum. A lot of the "on-topic" threads are question and answer rather then discussion. And On topic threads are greatly welcomed. Doesn't mean ya can't BS though....


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: alison
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 09:55 PM

Ceitagh,

I'm glad you've decided to stay. yours was one of the few directly music related threads (which are an increasing rarity)... and it got good direct answers, without turning into the chatty stuff that others complain about.... you can find your answers easily .. you don't have to wade through hundreds of unrelated posts. I hope you do find the time to read what has gone before....

and if you want a real welcome and a lot of BS... head across to St Pat's day in the Mudcat tavern and charge a drink to Bert's account....

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Pelrad
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 10:10 PM

Ceitagh, first of all, *welcome!* :-)

Please don't feel slighted by the lack of welcoming responses; there are so many threads going on at once that most people don't read all of them, and it's difficult to know sometimes if someone is new or has just been hanging out on different topics than you have. For instance, I didn't read the thread you started, and might not have encountered you for another three months. At which point you'd be sounding like an old-timer and I would just assume you'd been here all along. I think when I got here, maybe four people said hello...They happened to be interested in the same music and were probably the only ones to read my thread.

In my opinion, it's justifiable to repeat or redirect a request if you have not gotten the response you hoped for. It's only whining if you project a keening tone and that's hard to hear in type. Very often if you do, you will get what you were looking for. How else are we gonna know?


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Bill in Alabama
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 11:00 PM

ceitagh--

Welcome to the Mudcat. I'm one of the old-timers (I made my first post in '97, and lurked around the perimeter of the group for several months before that), and I want to welcome you to the Mudcat. To be truthful, I didn't read the whistle thread: I'm a banjoist (clawhammer, bluegrass, melodic)and I tend to concentrate, in my performances, predominantly on traditional Appalachian music and old-time string-band pieces. I have tried the whistle, and I can't seem to make it do what I want. All that aside, I want to say that I hope that you'll stick around long enough to get to know us. You are most sincerely welcome.


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Escamillo
Date: 17 Mar 00 - 01:51 AM

I'm neither newby or old-timer, I'm here since July 99, and I don't agree with the Guest (whoever he/she may be) because we can't get EXACTLY what we want in a community, and can't pretend things to be always as we like. I would suggest him to try opening more musical threads, or to send personal messages to knowledgeable people inviting them to discuss specialized subjects, or just leave the site, but NEVER encourage other people to "leave if you are a serious musician" - that's insulting to all the rest of us, and I guess that is precisely his/her intention. I would prefer he/she TEACHES something musical to us. Myself, have learned a lot and enjoyed a lot, and am open to hear anything that improves my musical culture. And a pair of jokes too !
Un abrazo - Andrés (a FAQ list ? I thought this was a decent place !)


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Mar 00 - 01:59 AM

!Y un abrazo mas grande a Andres, el Escamillo, el hombre muy magnifico!


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Escamillo
Date: 17 Mar 00 - 03:08 AM

Thanks Praise ! If I could, I would include here the Toreador March, to accompany your "salut" !! :)))))))
And drop my mantle at your feet ! - Andrés


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Mar 00 - 03:50 AM

~~O~h~~~m~y~!~~

!Ay, mi, senor!

Mi Espanol es muy pequeno, pero mi corazon es muy grande, y el espanol es la lengua de la corazon, ?si?

Mi esposa tambien tiene un poquito de Espanol... ten cuidado por favor, porque el senor Hardiman tambien tiene el gran pistole de Pennsyltucky, !!caramba!! Tenemos los dos, para la "boom boom," comprende usted Senor Escamillo? Eh, la vida es muy loco aqui... Ay, lo siento-- este no es musica, porque no es la musica de el Snor Max!

Creo que yo nececito (???) un diccionario, si? Yo no habla el Espanol, muchos anos. Perdoname. Tambien no puedo escrivir el tilde. Ay mi.


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Hyperabid
Date: 17 Mar 00 - 05:21 AM

Errrmmmm!

(Speaking very tentatively re: Amos' request)

I do have around ten meg of webspace with my home isp that I don't really use....

I guess if someone could help me with content etc. then we could pursuade the spirits of the Mudcat to create a link...

Or is that a tad presumptuous.

Hyp

(Sh*t - momma always told me never wolunteer for anything!


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 17 Mar 00 - 11:14 AM

I guess after a year and a half, I'm hardly a newbie, and since I've read a lot of the earliest posts I don't feel like an "old timer" either. I'm pretty fatalistic about how communities evolve and change, and I definitely recognize the need many of us have to make "connections" in an increasingly bizzare world, but one thing DOES trouble me. When I arrived here, a thoughtful (if highly critical) post like the one above by "Guest, whoever...." would have engendered quite a few responses. If for no other reason than the person took the time to put their thoughts down in an articulate and obviously passionate way. The one change I'm sure about is that in former times, the poster would not have felt the need for anonymity. They probably would have taken some lumps, got a fair amount of support, and most importantly (to me) a lively discussion would have lasted for a least a couple of days, before we got back to the music stuff. The bottom line is that I think a fair number of us would have at least READ the post, and responded. Too often now, any dissenting post is just dismissed as "probably Gargoyle"...which is assinine, (and most probably inaccurate, in my mind).

Having said that, I'd like to respond to "guest" (if you haven't shuffled off yet)

Guest. Yes this IS A PLACE FOR A SERIOUS MUSICIAN. WAS, IS, and WILL BE. You seem to be troubled that the forum, and Mudcat Radio give a voice to folks who's technical skills don't meet your criteria. Well, may I say, that's what FOLK MUSIC is all about! It's not Jazz, it's not Pop, and it's not the symphony. It's about folks singing and playing WHILE raising families, doing jobs, and all those time consuming neccessities that pros often neglect in order to practice. I KNOW. Had I stayed with my first trade (artist) I doubt if I'd have had the time to hone my musical skills to where they'd be competitive with my peers...and I'd be singing STRICTLY for fun today...and probably not meet your standards.

So, perhaps you can lighten up a bit. I too wish that the more technical music threads would attract a few more of the "I'm all right, you're all right" one liner posters, but perhaps you haven't noticed that some of the newer Catters DO frequent these threads. I may have more to say on this if anyone else cares to continue it in a thought-out way....but even if they don't, and even if your approach was somewhat heavy-handed, I think it deserved a response.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: MMario
Date: 17 Mar 00 - 11:40 AM

Rick - thank you for that reply to "Guest".

I think some people are afraid to respond to the anonymous postings, I know *I* am. A lot of that fear stems from the vitriolic posts the forum has seen over the past few months from anonymous postings. Even when I don't take the posts personally, or resent them when they appear to be attacking people I have come to regard as friends, they are very unpleasant. and tend to become MORE unpleasant the more often they appear.

Speaking strictly for myself, I would LOVE to have more musical discussions. I probably wouldn't post much to them, but I am learning a great deal by reading such threads.

The plain truth of the matter is, I don't have enough musical knowledge to ASK the bloody questions, let alone answer them. But I'm learning, slowly. Will I ever have the voice and singing technique that Andre has? I doubt it. But I can improve, and meanwhile, if there are people with whom I can share my music, and who share theirs with me, whom does it hurt?


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Amos
Date: 17 Mar 00 - 11:43 AM

Rick, Guest,

I appreciate both of your perspectives. I am grateful to Rick's defense of the folk music thesis,than whom no-one is better qualfied to discuss.

As one of the worst offenders on the BS trail which Guest feels has discolored the original high tone of the 'Cat, I offer my condolences for any offense Guest has taken, but, being in an ornery mood, I will not apologize despite the articulate and well-reasoned condemnation offered by Guest.

First, because Guest has written anonymously. Second, because I have always tried as well as I could to contribute to the core dialogue of the 'Cat -- its focus on the folk process and the many facets of folk music -- as well as I could, although I am but an amateur compared to those who have made it their life, like Rick, Art, Frank and others.

Finally, I suggest that the deeper well springs of the music we all love is not the study of technical issues, although they are vital, but the presence of a creative voice and the wish to use it. The world being what it is there are too, too few environments in which this wellspring is nurtured and tolerated in all the rambunctious and contradictory forms it produces.

This tolerance, whether it comes from principle or genuine benevolence, is the key to the entire process of creating music, especialy music born from the mishmash of life as folk music is. We would dishonor that legacy in the extreme if we sought only to distill its techniques and its academic intricacies without regard to the more profound and (in my opinion) important fires that fed the forge where our favorite works were wrought in the first instance.

What motive would we have for doing such a disservice? To make others seem wrong for not knowing what we know? To nourish some insecure, fragile construct of false superiority? Oh, fie on those foolish impulses!

Make no mistake...I honor the wise and learned here for their insight, their hard work, and their wide-ranging knowledge. I honor and admire the great artists here, like Rick himself, who can make songs sound so beautiful in performance. But above all this, I have to say I honor the spirit of tolerance which allows creative play as a known virtue, however sloppy it gets sometimes. That said, and my thoughts made known hereby, well, go blow a possum.

A


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: GUEST,Jack (who is called Jack)
Date: 17 Mar 00 - 01:06 PM

I think there two mistaken assumptions people have about this forum that lead to a lot of the complaints and criticism. First, the idea that there is enough to talk about regarding folk music to keep a large, lively group of knowlegeable people engaged in a narrow and focused dialog on the subject for several years. This is simply false. Sure there are people who initially won't know Gary Davis, or who Stan Hugill is (just for example), but eventually we all learn about them, and start to find ourselves going over old ground (How many times can you discuss the origin of Amazing Grace?). We may be very fond of that ground--but eventually we get to a point where going over it one more time isn't that interesting or necessary. Once that happens, there's really only one thing left to keep the core of knowlegable people engaged, the sense of community and the social banter.

The second mistake is the idea that all the useful musical information has to come through the Forum. That is should be some kind of 'expert reference site'. Not so! First of all, an open forum is poorly structured to meet such a role, although it is to Max's credit (along with the Elves) that it is as organized and searchable as it is. Second, between the lyric database, the links pages, and all the other content within the site, there's a lot of structured information above and beyond what the forum provides. The fact that this information is accessible by clicking through the links and not provided by Mbo (for example) doesn't really mean anything.


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Mar 00 - 02:52 PM

GUEST,Jack (who is called Jack)--

Yeah!!!!


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Mar 00 - 03:12 PM

HOME RULES If you sleep on it............ make it up
If you wear it............ hang it up
If you drop it............ pick it up
If you eat out of it............ put it in the sink
If you step in it............ wipe it off
If you open it............ close it
If you empty it............ fill it up
If it rings............ answer it
If it howls............ feed it
If it cries............ love it


Funny how so often we like receiving these responses but don't see the need to give them.

That's F**kin' earth people for ya.


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 17 Mar 00 - 03:38 PM

Jack(wick), Amos and Rick F...excellent points!!! Wonder if the early Bob Dylan would have been sufficiently proficient for "Guest" to approve of him getting air-time on Mudcat Radio?

LEJ


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Amos
Date: 17 Mar 00 - 03:48 PM

Thanks, LEJ...I especially liked the "Go blow a possum" part.

A


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Subject: Mudcat FAQ
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Mar 00 - 04:18 PM

I suppose that it might be nice to have a Mudcat FAQ, but I think most of the information is already here and relatively easy to find. If you look under "Mudcat Resources" on our links page, you will find guides to HTML and tune posting. If there are other threads that provide good guidelines for new Mudcatters, please add them to the "links" page.
It's nice to be helpful and welcoming to newcomers, but I think you can kill people with kindness - or at least frighten them badly - if you overwhelm them with words. Maybe it's better to let people explore a bit and find their own way.
Reminds me of an exhilerating experience I had in the Milan airport in November, something that was quite different from my many experiences of American airports. I rode a "moving sidewalk" - silently. There were no signs to tell me how to do it, and no monotone mechanical female voices in eleventeen languages to tell me to hold onto the handrail and step off at the end of the sidewalk.
Remember - Mudcat has been in existence for over three years, and we have not had a single life-threatening injury. Maybe it's OK for us to let people find their own way around, and we can give directions when asked.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 17 Mar 00 - 04:29 PM

Anonymous guest,

I have always sort of tried to respond to any questions or problems that people ask bring up related to music theory--and particularly, but not exclusively, as it relates to harmony--

I can say with little fear of contradiction (though if you do, look out--I usually give as good as I get!!) that this stuff is generally fairly confusing and overwhelming--and I can guarantee that, as hard as it is to understand, it is just that hard to explain--

Some of the explanations that I have read here(other than my own) beat the living daylights out of the the music school theory lectures and theory texts in clarity and practicality--it isn't easy to write this stuff, and as generous as people here are with their time and efforts, it is ridiculous to expect that someone sit down and re-write Music theory 101 every time some one asks what a chord is--

Moreover, we are not obliged to entertain you or to educate you, so you pretty much have to take things as they come-If someone wants to answer your question in the middle of a reminiscence about something that happened in 1957, pepper it with possum jokes, or accompany it with a little song that they wrote for the occasion, you ought to learn to gracefully accept it--

I particularly think of all the effort that Rick Fielding puts in, to explain things to, and encourage players of all levels--believe me, he didn't stop at Christmas!!!

Your comments misrepresent what is happening here--and for the sake of your own self righteousness--The obvious question, which your anonymity carefully avoids, is whether you yourself could, or have, satisfied the standards that to so sanctimoniously impose on others--

I guess we'll never know--but most of us have an idea--


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Amos
Date: 17 Mar 00 - 04:35 PM

M. Ted -- what you said.

Joe -- I believe you are very right that self-guided exploration is the best orientation. I would be in favor of making it a wee bit easier, is all. I suggested an outline to Elekta and Hyper that could be put behind a single pointer on quick links for a FAQ sort of thing, butmostly just soordinated links under topics, rather than great long Q and A text. I think it owuld just provide a slightly easier map, not reduce the exploration of the site. FWIW.


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Mar 00 - 04:51 PM

Joe, I think that "Links" and "Mudcat Resources" do not signal to new people anything like what you say is there. There should be a "Welcome: Help!" blue-clicky or first label that would be obvious for anyone first coming here, and loaded with some of the various things suggested here. We have been suggesting this sort of thing for a long time -- could you use your magic powers and make it happen? yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Mar 00 - 04:57 PM

Done, Peter.


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Amos
Date: 17 Mar 00 - 05:24 PM

Where, Joe? Or do you mean the thread?


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Mar 00 - 05:33 PM

No, Joe (though the gesture is appreciated) I meant -- and most people here mean -- something embedded obviously in the frame -- otherwise it will (a) take much of your time just keeping it at the top of the threads; and (b) will turn into another extended give and take. There have been assorted suggestions for either a list of simple FAQs or a linked map that some people have been working on.
yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Mar 00 - 05:42 PM

That's no big deal, Peter. We just get the FAQ going, and then ask Max to put a link to it where it can be found. Everybody, please stop in and contribute whatever you think should be there. Those of you who tend to be wordy should be aware that I will edit out excess verbiage. Feel free to copy-and-paste from whatever you know of that might be helpful. Just don't be annoyed at my editing. I said "welcome" at the beginning of the thread, in big letters. That should be enough of that - the rest should emphasize solid information.
Click here for the FAQ thread. If you'd like to volunteer to start a message on a particular topic, that would be nice. If you'd like to make corrections or additions to a previous message in the FAQ, send me the full copy by personal message, including any HTML that needs to be in the message.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Escamillo
Date: 17 Mar 00 - 11:46 PM

With your permission for a very short off-topic: Thank you Praise for your kind words in an almost perfect Spanish ! Ha ! Don't worry, no man called Escamillo could ever compete with another called no less than H A R D I M A N !! Could you imagine ? No, my business are bulls and brilliant marches - and my toreador hat for the lady !
Un abrazo - Andrés (Jeez - now they have a FAQ Newcomers Guide ! - This place is scandalizing me)


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 18 Mar 00 - 12:19 AM

Hola Escamillo,

Mi Espanol es muy pequeno, pero mi corazon es muy grande tambien.

para tu...


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Mar 00 - 01:18 AM

Eh, Senor Escamillo,

Muchas gracias. Quiero decir las gracias tambien por la "hat" pero no tengo la palabra, !ay mi! Creo que usted tiene el corazon mas grande de El Toro, !claro que si! Y somo esta' la corazon es el hombre-- un hombre muy gentil. ??? Huh? Whuh'd I say? ("??Adonde esta' el Espanol ahora, senora, eh???")

Adonde esta' el diccionario? !!No tengo mas palabras!!

?Como se dice, "LOL" en el Espanol, y las otras palabras del mundo virtual?

Y ay mi, !los verbos! !Y la cabeza!


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 18 Mar 00 - 01:38 AM

Whoever You Think I Am,
Any time I have created a Thread requesting technical music theory answers I have received 'oodles' of help. Maybe my level of technical skills does not reach ankle deep to those who offer the information but I feel mighty priviledged to be on the receiving end of the vast amount of knowledge around here.

Little Neo


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Mar 00 - 02:13 AM

And if Little Neo weren't here feeling that way about what she receives, would we want to be left missing her clarity, her wisdom, and her open heart?


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 18 Mar 00 - 12:10 PM

Excuse me my new friends, there's a newbie here; with a love without ends, and a gladsome tear I appreciate few new trends, of this ner'y a fear For the ancient song contends with the creative new year

All the knoledge here implies,.... That honest research now decries.... "been there, done that" only tries.... to elevate sophist denies....

I do respect the 'status quo' for all the thoughts that they do know and education lets us grow but 'newbies' animate the show

for when we smite the honest young they sublimate their song unsung and you to whom the club belong toot your horn, the fresh unrung

for if you must insist to peck upon the newbie, what the heck Its your stage to muses wreck when entry fees spotlight the neck

Old-Timers help a pop song quiz and prittle prattle like soda fizz and these enthusiasts may hiss "Been there done that" NO NEW BLISS!

But hey! I love you digitrad Dont get me wrong, I'm not quite mad Just open up, and dont be sad When "newbies" thank you, PROUD BE GLAD!


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 18 Mar 00 - 02:15 PM

Thomas the Rhymer - excellent post
Your rhyming talents are clearly the most
Your rhyming has our admiration
For the rest of us, the sheer frustration
Of thinking up words that have to rhyme
Would eat up all of our Mudcatting time
That's really all I had to say
Rhyme on, Thomas

Signed, Lonesome EJ


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Mar 00 - 02:34 PM

That's it. I quit on Praisepoems. You guys take over!


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Mar 00 - 02:36 PM

Sorry, forgot to add grin to above:

+\~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/+

At least that wide!


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Subject: RE: Newbies vs Old-timers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 00 - 04:07 PM

This is going to be a long post, as posts go. But I'll break it up,into paragraphs to make it easier on the eyes.

At least the Anonymous-guess-who-I-am gave us a reasoned critical argument rather than just blowing a raspberry in mini-print like some people do.

I've been around since October or so, and I can't see the decline he or she is talking about. What there is is a constant flux, because quite a lot of things are happening in parallel here, just as happens in any gathering.

So we get the detailed explorations of the origin and meaning of songs, we get the technical stuff about making music and making instruments, we get the songs being added in from traditions, and the new songs bubbling up, and the occasioally angry arguments (Ireland, guns, potentially lots more), and there is the socialising, and the warm fuzzies. And there is the continuing, and inevitably at times repetitious, exploration of "What is Folk?" in various forms. And the Whither Mudcat discussion tradition, to which this one belongs to.

Tha balance at any one time is different, and at some times it's more to my taste than at others. The same is true I imagine for all of us - at different times. But so far, it always comes through.

I think it's brilliant. Some bits I tend to leave alone, because I spend too much time here, and it's a slow old connection sometimes.

I wish old anonymous up there had let us have her or his name, because it'd be easier to work out what he or she is missing. And I find that kind of thing irritating - are people really frightened that they might get a personal messages they don't like?

But as I said, at least it was a courteous criticism, and the only thing I don't like about this place have been the efforts made by a handful of people to bully us into some pattern that they like - regardless of whether that pattern might be good in itself. I hate bullies. I hate bullies in disguise even more.

Just a couple of pleas - I think it would be better if more people, when they asked for lyrics (which much ofthe time are reasily available on the DT anyway - but newcomers aren't to know that), could post in terms of - "could I have the words - and I'd like to know more about the song", or "I know this about the song", or "this is why I want it". And whether they ask it or not, that is the spirit in which we shoiuld respond to any request for a song.

And the same should apply when we post a song - we should say something about it, even if it's just that we don't know anything about it apart from the words, but that we'd like to know more.

And I like it when people in a BS thread (sorry kat, I know you hate the term, but I think we are stuck with it) bring in songs and referances to songs. Songs are our common frame of reference - if it's worth talking abouit, it's worth singing about.

And thanks you, Shambles for starting this thread.


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